On March 29 2020 21:25 Sonic_md wrote: what do you think about semifinal in left part? i think Larva have more chances vs Flash than ZerO in 1/2
I don’t think Larva can beat Flash under any circumstances.
Weirdly, I think Action is better suited to play Flash than Zero is, even though Zero is the better player. Zero hasn’t shown that he has the chutzpah needed to beat Flash in ZvT. Pure skill alone has never been enough to beat Flash in ZvT. Zerg has to win mind games and have a flare for the moment. Effort is the master of this, obviously. Jaedong has showed it as well (ASL2 Jaedong was the last great Jaedong series). Action showed he has it today.
Zero has never showed this, but hopefully Action’s play inspires him to go out of his playstyle he’s comfortable with. Zero once said he didn’t even practice for his MSL final against Flash because he felt there was no way he could win. That mindset can never beat Flash. Again, hopefully Action inspires him (and hopefully Zero beats Larva).
Larva does have some chutzpah but he’s probably a bit too lacking in overall skill for that to be enough.
On March 29 2020 21:19 EsportsJohn wrote: Pretty disappointing series tbh. Action played some pretty great macro games in the first 3 sets, but Flash was making a lot of mistakes too. Last two games were just...straight throws.
That’s too simple a way to look at those games. Game 4 maybe wasn’t a great game aesthetically, but it was not a throw. Action still would’ve won if Flash missed his lings for ~3 more seconds (even after the wasted early lings). This game is what Effort vs. Flash game 5 in 2010 OSL would’ve looked like if Flash caught Effort’s lings in that game. And that’s one of the most memorable games of all time. Sometimes games go down that way - if it works it’s legendary, and if it fails, it looks terrible.
Might have won, I don't think he would've died to the lings, no matter if he scouted it or not. He already had quite a few goliaths and marines, yea the lings would've dealt damage but I doubt it would have been game-ending.
You’re right, not a sure thing Action wins. However, if those two Goliaths are sitting in the main waiting for Mutas and those lings wipe out the Bunker in the blink of an eye, at minimum Flash loses a bunch of Marines and other stuff in the natural, and at minimum Flash loses control of his natural for a bit. Suddenly it doesn’t look like a “throw” but rather a game where Action is at least ahead (Mutas were on the way, after all, just one to two waves of production later than Flash expected thanks to the ling flood).
On March 29 2020 21:32 jjmmtt wrote: Great series ruined by an awful map game 5. I literally don't see how any player in the world is supposed to kill Flash on that map. You can't hide anything and you can't surround anything.
Poor excuse, he could've banned it if he didnt like it.
It isn't an excuse, what am I excusing? It's my opinion on the series. Yeah I guess he could have banned it? Then you're not banning something else. And that map could also not have been the 5th map or even in the map pool to begin with. I've only seen terrible games on that map tbh.
On March 29 2020 21:17 whaski wrote: Two-player maps favor terran? And hitchiker is very good for 8 rax into 1-1-1. It is so hard for zerg to defend everything. And suddently terran gets million vessels.
Action had that 100% defended then he ran away with his lings and let the second vulture in. It was at that moment he pretty much lost the game.
A map where the zerg is expected to make 3! perfect moves in a row to stay afloat is not a good map imo. Even if Action managed to do all this, I still give Flash almost 50% chance to win with a push.
On March 29 2020 21:09 yoshi245 wrote: Action was playing flawlessly when it gets to late game. But Flash forcing Action to ditch a macro game and into his tempo for pre-mid game all-in style aggression. WP to both.
I feel that it is almost the other way around. The two games action won, it was early ling aggression that put him in a position to get into a strong late game. GGs well played
On March 29 2020 21:17 whaski wrote: Two-player maps favor terran? And hitchiker is very good for 8 rax into 1-1-1. It is so hard for zerg to defend everything. And suddently terran gets million vessels.
Talking about map balance in a game where Zerg lets a bunch of Vultures into their main, and citing Vessels being made off one base to counter a Zerg that had no economy due to aforementioned Vultures, is showing you don’t understand what an unrepresentative outlier is.
The map may or may not be T favored, but the reasons people are citing in this thread are terrible. You may as well talk about map balance for a game where one player started with three workers.
Well I disagree the notion that Action let it happen, its more about Flash being Flash alongside the fact that Hitchiker is hard map to zvt. I was more citing balance towards very lategame aka Kespa-era.
On March 29 2020 21:32 jjmmtt wrote: Great series ruined by an awful map game 5. I literally don't see how any player in the world is supposed to kill Flash on that map. You can't hide anything and you can't surround anything.
Poor excuse, he could've banned it if he didnt like it.
It isn't an excuse, what am I excusing? It's my opinion on the series. Yeah I guess he could have banned it? Then you're not banning something else. And that map could also not have been the 5th map or even in the map pool to begin with. I've only seen terrible games on that map tbh.
I think its hard to form an opinion on just a few games (I've seen on that map). Fact is that Artosis already said 8rax was quite popular, yet Action still went for a somewhat greedy opening, in the end it kinda evened out cause Flash lost 2 bunkers and marines, but yea, had he just gone overpool or pool first, he would've probably been in a better spot and also would've dealt with the harass afterwards better.
I mean he obviously knew the factory was there because he stopped the first vult without any problems, then messed up with the ones after that. He knew they were probably still coming, since he left his hydra (and second hydra) there. It was just a player error. He was up 2 bases to 1, he knew as long as he wouldnt take too much dmg he'd probably be at least ok, but he still moved his lings for no real reason? I don't think you can really blame this on the map.
On March 29 2020 21:17 whaski wrote: Two-player maps favor terran? And hitchiker is very good for 8 rax into 1-1-1. It is so hard for zerg to defend everything. And suddently terran gets million vessels.
Talking about map balance in a game where Zerg lets a bunch of Vultures into their main, and citing Vessels being made off one base to counter a Zerg that had no economy due to aforementioned Vultures, is showing you don’t understand what an unrepresentative outlier is.
The map may or may not be T favored, but the reasons people are citing in this thread are terrible. You may as well talk about map balance for a game where one player started with three workers.
Well I disagree the notion that Action let it happen, its more about Flash being Flash alongside the fact that Hitchiker is hard map to zvt. I was more citing balance towards very lategame aka Kespa-era.
Actually found a pretty good example of lategame tvz why this is good map for terran. Still, the way how Flash picked Action apart with vultures and frontal attack was something else.
Pretty entertaining set of games today, imo. All in all - the better prepared for the series advances which seems fair. I am excited for the other matches as well. I love this ASL, feels like the best one since the one effort took. When does effort leave the army btw?
It's somewhat lucky, in that if he see the lings any later hes toast but it's definitely not random...he knows action is behind due to drone count and is verifying one of the tactics that could hurt him...more lings
On March 29 2020 23:00 Brainojack wrote: Flash's vulture scout in game 4 reminds me of his scan of soulkey's gaurdians in ASL3 ro4.
It's somewhat lucky, in that if he see the lings any later hes toast but it's definitely not random...he knows action is behind due to drone count and is verifying one of the tactics that could hurt him...more lings
The vulture was placed in an odd nook with a dead-end. I presume its only purpose is to scout incoming attacks?
Yeah, I remember that match against Soulkey. Seems incredibly lucky, but Flash must've smelt something fishy and acted on his suspicions.
Ultimately, one lucky scout is luck, twice (or more) is star-sense
On March 29 2020 22:41 JoinTheRain wrote: Pretty entertaining set of games today, imo. All in all - the better prepared for the series advances which seems fair. I am excited for the other matches as well. I love this ASL, feels like the best one since the one effort took. When does effort leave the army btw?
That's my question as well! I could watch a bo99 with him vs. Flash and not leave my seat.
On March 29 2020 23:00 Brainojack wrote: Flash's vulture scout in game 4 reminds me of his scan of soulkey's gaurdians in ASL3 ro4.
It's somewhat lucky, in that if he see the lings any later hes toast but it's definitely not random...he knows action is behind due to drone count and is verifying one of the tactics that could hurt him...more lings
The vulture was placed in an odd nook with a dead-end. I presume its only purpose is to scout incoming attacks?
Yeah, I remember that match against Soulkey. Seems incredibly lucky, but Flash must've smelt something fishy and acted on his suspicions.
Ultimately, one lucky scout is luck, twice (or more) is star-sense
Exactly His sense is leagues beyond anyone else, like a whole other evolution.
Remember Game3 vs Snow in the finals? There was a moment where he pulled out 2 tanks 1 second before a counterattack arrived, without any scan, just pure 'knowing'.
Here it is, chills moment at 2:03:20, you have to see the couple minutes leading to it to appreciate it though, he was seriously behind. He later reviewed the games in his channel, and jinjin translated it, so you can see what Flash says about people going crazy of him knowing to pickup the tanks here at 4:50. He is just something else.
What was the idea behind Flash's unorthodox build in G1? Map-specific? To throw Action off? Reactive to Action's build (or at least, what he assumed was Action's build)? Can anyone shed some light?
Action lost that last game purely cause he moved his lungs for the culture choke point. I bet he is kicking himself hard. Awesome series though. Flash definitely showed some weaknesses in his game management. I hope that doesn't come from wrist pain.
On March 30 2020 00:05 RKC wrote: What was the idea behind Flash's unorthodox build in G1? Map-specific? To throw Action off? Reactive to Action's build (or at least, what he assumed was Action's build)? Can anyone shed some light?
The build was a great build, but he was way out of place for the first muta attack and lost 10-12 SCVs. You didn't get to see it kick as s because of that. It's a legit macro build kind of like SK terran, but with goliath first.
On March 30 2020 00:05 RKC wrote: What was the idea behind Flash's unorthodox build in G1? Map-specific? To throw Action off? Reactive to Action's build (or at least, what he assumed was Action's build)? Can anyone shed some light?
The build was a great build, but he was way out of place for the first must attack and lost 10-12 SCVs. You didn't get to see it kick as s because of that. It's a legit macro build kind of like SK terran, but with goliath first.
Yeah, Tastosis were all excited about the build initially. So it's an anti-muta build - which meant he reacted well to Action's build? Just botched the timing/execution?
On March 30 2020 00:05 RKC wrote: What was the idea behind Flash's unorthodox build in G1? Map-specific? To throw Action off? Reactive to Action's build (or at least, what he assumed was Action's build)? Can anyone shed some light?
The build was a great build, but he was way out of place for the first muta attack and lost 10-12 SCVs. You didn't get to see it kick as s because of that. It's a legit macro build kind of like SK terran, but with goliath first.
Sorry did it earlier in the tournament and pulled it off very well. It is kind of an interesting build because it forces 2-hatch muta with the factory opening and then takes advantage of the later lurker/hive tech because of the gas/larva expended in mutas. The goliaths with range can easily prevent the mutas from kiting the marines as they walk across the map and prevent the Zerg from delaying the 3rd base push like they normally do.
EPT
His sense is leagues beyond anyone else, like a whole other evolution.
