Yeah guys let's have the finals on Hitchhiker, what a well balanced map to have Z play T.
Just in the interest of fairness, let's make the map pool Longinus Monty Hall Andromeda Matchpoint Fighting Spirit Neo Python, because those are totally fine maps for Z to play on.
FlaSh is literally the only Bonjwa who had maps become easier for their race rather than harder. The reason Jaedong was never called a bonjwa despite having the stats to be called one was because the maps he played on made it super easy to play the only style of ZvT he knew how to play, and as soon as he had to cast dark swarms or burrow lurkers he "went into a slump".
On March 30 2020 01:16 r33k wrote: Yeah guys let's have the finals on Hitchhiker, what a well balanced map to have Z play T.
Just in the interest of fairness, let's make the map pool Longinus Monty Hall Andromeda Matchpoint Fighting Spirit Neo Python, because those are totally fine maps for Z to play on.
FlaSh is literally the only Bonjwa who had maps become easier for their race rather than harder. The reason Jaedong was never called a bonjwa despite having the stats to be called one was because the maps he played on made it super easy to play the only style of ZvT he knew how to play, and as soon as he had to cast dark swarms or burrow lurkers he "went into a slump".
I have no idea what point this post is trying to make. It's all over the place.
I just can't believe that Action won macro games and lost short ones. Last two games felt like throw, that 4th one was definitely. I'm so salty FlaSh gets away with cheap vulture move even after Action saved hatchery, and and moves on once again... Hope ZerO will will bring us to game 5 once again. I'm so proud Action, he fought like he's EffOrt.
Nice series. Have few thoughts Game 4: that vulture scout was not luck at all. I think Flash was checking if there was a lurker all in, because he already knew action had more lings than usual. That was the lurker morphing timing. And zerg normally do it behind terran's third. Game 5: I felt Flash could take action's natural if he put 2 marines in each banker instead of put 4 in one banker. That way it would be much easier for him to send 2 rines into 2nd banker when 1st one down. He might not lose that 2 rines during transfer banker, then all lings would die, game would end right there.
On March 29 2020 21:19 EsportsJohn wrote: Pretty disappointing series tbh. Action played some pretty great macro games in the first 3 sets, but Flash was making a lot of mistakes too. Last two games were just...straight throws.
That’s too simple a way to look at those games. Game 4 maybe wasn’t a great game aesthetically, but it was not a throw. Action still would’ve won if Flash missed his lings for ~3 more seconds (even after the wasted early lings). This game is what Effort vs. Flash game 5 in 2010 OSL would’ve looked like if Flash caught Effort’s lings in that game. And that’s one of the most memorable games of all time. Sometimes games go down that way - if it works it’s legendary, and if it fails, it looks terrible.
In game 5 Action held the Bunker rush perfectly and Flash even said he thought he was going to lose after he didn’t get the natural Hatch. He didn’t expect Flash to just force feed a second Vulture in, and that single misread cost him the game (since it led to Vulture snowball). If Action keeps two more lings at home to keep Vultures from being able to run through, he is in fantastic shape.
I wonder if people complaining about game 5 have actually played TvZ. 8 rax (which already hurts your economy) that does minimal damage (I think he got zero Drones?) into one base play is a very unforgiving place to be economically.
Unless you dont play brood war, or perhaps protoss and protoss only, you are not allowed to make a post like that. This is so wrong on so many level its painful to read
On March 29 2020 21:19 EsportsJohn wrote: Pretty disappointing series tbh. Action played some pretty great macro games in the first 3 sets, but Flash was making a lot of mistakes too. Last two games were just...straight throws.
That’s too simple a way to look at those games. Game 4 maybe wasn’t a great game aesthetically, but it was not a throw. Action still would’ve won if Flash missed his lings for ~3 more seconds (even after the wasted early lings). This game is what Effort vs. Flash game 5 in 2010 OSL would’ve looked like if Flash caught Effort’s lings in that game. And that’s one of the most memorable games of all time. Sometimes games go down that way - if it works it’s legendary, and if it fails, it looks terrible.
In game 5 Action held the Bunker rush perfectly and Flash even said he thought he was going to lose after he didn’t get the natural Hatch. He didn’t expect Flash to just force feed a second Vulture in, and that single misread cost him the game (since it led to Vulture snowball). If Action keeps two more lings at home to keep Vultures from being able to run through, he is in fantastic shape.
I wonder if people complaining about game 5 have actually played TvZ. 8 rax (which already hurts your economy) that does minimal damage (I think he got zero Drones?) into one base play is a very unforgiving place to be economically.
Unless you dont play brood war, or perhaps protoss and protoss only, you are not allowed to make a post like that. This is so wrong on so many level its painful to read
How is he wrong? Can you explain?
Not that I'm challenging you, or siding with darktreb. I'm just a noob as well, but I thought he made some compelling points. Just curious to know your counter-points.
The bunkers rush did its work, even if there was no drones killed. Then, 2 more lings at home wouldnt have stopped the harassment, barely slowing it down, but even then, the amount of drones that Flash killed is not that high anyway, compared to the pressure hes made on Action.
Say what you want, i think the whole series (except game#4) is all about build orders. Even if Flash survived longer than any other terran would have in both his losses, Action came with a well prepared plan to secure a 3rd while forcing terran to defend his base in both g1 and 3.*
What im trying to say is that the 8rax followed by pressure from 2 sides on a small 2 players map like Hitchiker resulted in Action not being able to drones up (while losing some more despite poor Flash micro, compared to what hes capable of), had to make units from 2 hatchery while his timing was already off due to the amount of lings he has to made to save his natural. From there, it was a build order win imo. What i dont understand is Action's choice to 12 hatch on Hitchiker.
*I believe the first one who did a similar build on stage, at least in ASL, was Killer against Mong(!?) on FS, when baxter(11) took the 7 main super quickly while forcing terran(1) to turrets while zoning with zerglings, switching to lurkers before mutal.
My (fun and not very serious) personal theory on why Flash lost two games today and didn't play at his best capacity : He had sudden needs to go to the bathroom, and that's why he instantly and oddly got up and left after some/every game.
... it's got to happen to some players sometimes, right?
More seriously, I really gained a lot of respect for Action in this tournament. He has improved quite a lot since the last year, it probably also helps that the Zerg competition is much narrower this year.
On March 29 2020 21:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Wtf Action, you still have 2 base vs 1 base Flash, You didn't need to rush up the ramp.
Action gave up because had 12 drones or so and no way to cope with the constant Irradiates that would come from Flash’s vessels. Flash had two vessels and it was just going to snowball. You can’t beat irradiate when you’re still on lair tech with that weak an economy. It made sense to me that he’d risk an all-in attack before the vessel cloud got out of hand.
Let's give Action the benefit of doubt in G5. They're former KT members, and team kills throw out all kinds of mind games that we as viewers may not be aware of.
His risky 12-hatch build was to counter... some equally daring unorthodox build of Flash? I don't know myself, but does anyone have some theory?
Even without the hatch expo kill, Action looked kinda dead (or massively at a disadvantage). Terran can easily keep up the harass and snowball to victory from 1 base. Am I correct in thinking so?
What I disliked about the series is that both times Action was up he attempted a cheese move. His macro was actually solid, but he was outdone when he squandered the lead twice
On March 30 2020 12:08 RKC wrote: Let's give Action the benefit of doubt in G5. They're former KT members, and team kills throw out all kinds of mind games that we as viewers may not be aware of.
His risky 12-hatch build was to counter... some equally daring unorthodox build of Flash? I don't know myself, but does anyone have some theory?
Even without the hatch expo kill, Action looked kinda dead (or massively at a disadvantage). Terran can easily keep up the harass and snowball to victory from 1 base. Am I correct in thinking so?
How does Terran just “keep up the snowball” in a game where T even lost the first Vulture?
It’s not like Action had less units to defend after stopping the first Vulture.
Entire TvZs can get decided by a Vulture getting in. Sure, it’s hard to block in some situations, but it’s still doable and just not supposed to happen, similar to how Sunken busts aren’t supposed to happen but if they do happen it’s GG. Letting a Vulture in is all that matters in certain game types (certainly in low econ games). Similar to how Flash losing the first Vulture in an earlier game affected things a lot.
All this analysis of a game *after* Vultures that didn’t have to get in were let in is misguided. Yes, once the first Vulture gets in, it’s hard to stop it and stop the second. That’s why you just can’t let a Vulture in, plain and simple (and again, the first Vulture was blocked, so it’s not like it is impossible to keep one from getting in).
Wow I did not know Action well but I am a fan, as disappointing as G4 and G5 was to watch while rooting for him. I'm eagerly awaiting the day where Flash produces strategic innovations with Protoss or Zerg.
What a fun series, was rooting hard for action and he seemed to be playing so well in the 2 sets he won. Sad to see him fail cheese vs flash in game 4, but yeah it's match point vs flash so you gotta do something risky. Game 5 was hard to watch haha, but props to flash for picking action apart.
Trying to think of who realistically stands a chance of taking down flash. Maybe zero since Ro4 is "only" a Bo5, whereas I just dont see anyone on the other side ever beating flash in a Bo7 haha. stork is a choker, bisu's pvt isn't as good as rain or snow (who both got destroyed last season), light is great but still totally outclassed by flash, soma sorta a wildcard? Not sure what his spon-match record is vs flash, I assume not great. But he's still relatively a rookie and maybe a finals match vs flash is just what he needs to kickstart a fire in him?
EPT
