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On March 21 2019 12:36 Aminus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2019 11:47 Letmelose wrote:On March 19 2019 07:53 Aminus wrote:On March 18 2019 13:01 LocoBolon wrote:On March 18 2019 08:56 Aminus wrote:
End of game 2 and i can definitely say, mini is the best protoss player right now, Rain so overrated. Mini showing much much better and complicated games against same opponents Rain got defeated already and in general... And the fact Mini does that by wining a game from a big dissadvantage conquering his own mind just calls for so good story of ones deep improvement not only in game but in character and spirit. Thats the protoss spirit! Rain so overrated? Lol are you out of your mind? He is smarter and emotionally stronger than Mini to say the least, champ material Strategy, decision making and bran wise, Rain is the closest thing to Flash that exist in the Protoss realm. "overrated"... pfff don't make me laugh Yes, Rain is overrated, unless you didnt see effort toy with him 3-0. How is Rain smarter? Emotionally stronger he is, but Mini shows great talent, with much more complicated and well thought games. the main reason mini lost finals was emotions. Only reason Rain won ASL was that Snow defeated flash in bo5 in the semifinal, Snow was the real champ of that ASL. Mini packs a stronger aggressive punch due to his stellar micro-management that can throw more well rounded players off guard, but Rain has a tendency to rely less on unlikely outplays, and bases his games on decisions built on sound reasoning. Mini plays a more elaborate playstyle, while Rain keeps things less volatile, but what you see on screen are not representative of how deep their thought processes are for the games. Rain has some of the best understanding of the game from a protoss player, and this aspect is something Mini has always respected Rain for. Even during their Discord chat sessions, Mini has once jokingly said to Rain (but with a grain of truth) that protoss race as a whole was doomed because the brightest player (Rain), is not motivated enough to push the race forward. In what may be a bad analogy, Mini is like the dude who strikes harder but isn't that well organized in how he fights, while Rain plays like Floyd Mayweather Junior (obviously not at that level), he approaches the game methodically and there's great intellectual prowess going on behind what may seem like a commonplace gaming style. As an example, in game three of the finals, Mini had a picture perfect dragoon micro-management in the initial stages of the game, but invested into shuttles and units instead of powering up in terms of economy and tech, and Flash (who was spectating the finals alongside Rain) couldn't understand why Mini was doing this. He said BeSt would quite easily find a way to win from this already advantageous position without needing to pull off the aggressive play Mini was setting himself up for. Rain then said that Mini has this tendency to produce units with no purpose other than to playmake himself into an advantageous position with those units, often putting himself into unfavourable positions if he can't make full use of his units. It is just how Mini functions. He makes proactive plays with his units, and there's great skill involved in such plays, but there's sometimes zero logic in what Mini does other than he thinks he can outplay the opponent. I find Mini much more electric as a spectator than Rain, but personal tastes aside, Rain's credentials speak for themselves. He has been putting forth much more consistent and reliable results as a player in comparison to Mini, both online (he is the highest rated protoss player in terms of ELO points from online sponsored matches) and in tournaments over a lengthy period of time (he is the only player in the scene to have at least made the quarter-finals or above for every single ASL or KSL from 2018 onwards). I think you are under-valuing Rain due to his style of play, rather than his lack of competitive results. "Rain has some of the best understanding of the game from a protoss player" Is exactly what i think he lacks the most. He showed complete lack of understanding, in pvz late game when he faced Soulkey in one of the previous ASLs i think it was a group match since it was bo1, Rain literally didnt know what to do other than walk around with his army not even attacking unitl soulkey lurker contained the whole map, then he suicided 200/200 army and lost the game. He does show lack of understanding in his first game against Leta this ASL, when he didnt read at all that not so hard to read drop build and got completelly thrown off by it. Same in the first game against Last where he scouted the timing and number of factories, had around the same number of gates as factories with the difference that he started his gates after last facts were finished and instead of getting the full potential of his lower number of untis by gathering them all and preventing last from walking over the map with the push, he did the exact opposite of what it shoud be done, he separated all his units on small groups and lost them... Droped 2 shuttles of units on the third, one of with was reavers that couldve weaken the push significantly, and left 12 dragoons to die in front of Lasts natural. What about first game against Effort, he saw big overlord move out, then he was fully unaware of the drop possibility even tho he wasnt seeing any ovies at effort bases while flying around... these are just few sound examples of what i can remember at first thought. Rain game understanding is lacking imo, his power lies in solid textbook play, good macro and strong mentality. And Mini really showing deeper games and better execution with the lack of mental strenght, Mini showed much stronger play against Effort compared to Rain, and got himself in better positions while playing vs Last, followed by his nerves which made him do costly overcommitments, like in that game where he panicked after last pushed and walked such long distance to attack last 3rd with the mindset that he will draw last back to defend which is not even logical since last can be already at Mini's natural... Imo Mini is a great talent even if not more talented player than Rain and that can shine bright after he improve his stabillity. Rain is super solid but seems to lack passion and imagination. If i can make parallel, i would say Rain is the Protoss representation of what Flash and Soulkey are in their own races, but younger weaker version not achieved its full potential.
If you sit both Rain and Mini down to watch a game involving a protoss player, and ask them what the protoss player should do in the upcoming minutes to come, for any moment in the game, I would vouch almost every time that Rain would have a more formulaic and well reasoned explanation of what the protoss should carry out to win the game theoretically speaking.
Even Flash misreads situations at his demise, and I think you are basing your judgement off a very narrow sample size of games that suits your particular narrative. My statements are based on what fellow ex-professionals say, the perception of the spectators who watch these streamers on a daily basis, and how these players in question perceive their own play to be (Mini himself mentioned that he is an early game player who relies on his micro-management abilities), not constructing my entire narrative around I want to see and hear after watching a few select games from tournament play.
There's a level of build order optimization to Rain's play that far exceeds Mini's, and while it may seem very formulaic and rigid, this very quality allows Rain to win games without requiring the 'imagination' and 'overcommitments that could have gone right if Mini wasn't nervous'. Mini's style by nature makes him extremely volatile, and he does tend to tunnel vision hard on his unit outplay, and gets quite sloppy at managing his bases in an optimal manner. It makes him very proactive as a player, and of course when you base your entire game on brute forcing proactive plays with skill, you can excuse his horrible misplays and failures as merely results of 'lacking emotional composure', and reversely speaking, Rain does have misreads (and the same sort of excuses like Rain having an off day can be put forth just like your excuses for Mini) but the majority of the time he wins off correct reads and decision making.
It is difficult for Rain play like Mini because he doesn't have Mini's insane micro-management skills which allows him to make bold and sometimes foolish proactive outplays. However, I would also guarantee Mini trying to play the formulaic and well reasoned style of Rain would make you want to claw your eyes out.
If you are merely talking about gaming intelligence, and how quickly somebody masters the fundamental cerebral stepping stones to get good at a game without mastering the technical aspects, Rain is one of the most talented gamers this scene has ever produced. Mini is more talented than Rain in his own little quirky way, but gaming understanding is not one of them.
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TLADT24920 Posts
I also disagree on parts of the Rain aspect. His games against Larva in ASL4 are a prime example of bad decision making imo. For me, Rain has always been a fantastic macro toss who can pull off cheese builds and Bisu-like moves rarely, but his micro lacks otherwise and he has wonky decisions at times too. Mini on the other hand excels more at micro and control, less at macro in comparison to Rain and seems to make blunders trying to put him in a great position after an advantageous situation. We saw this in his finals vs Last on Neo Sylphid for instance.
Now, this doesn't mean all of Rain's decisions are terrible. His game against Last on Whiteout was a great idea with the frontal bust and that ASL4 game against Ample where he scouted his ghosts and switched to corsairs was another great on the spot decision making, but from my perspective, he's not the epitome of good decision making.
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On March 21 2019 13:37 BigFan wrote:
I also disagree on parts of the Rain aspect. His games against Larva in ASL4 are a prime example of bad decision making imo. For me, Rain has always been a fantastic macro toss who can pull off cheese builds and Bisu-like moves rarely, but his micro lacks otherwise and he has wonky decisions at times too. Mini on the other hand excels more at micro and control, less at macro in comparison to Rain and seems to make blunders trying to put him in a great position after an advantageous situation. We saw this in his finals vs Last on Neo Sylphid for instance.
Now, this doesn't mean all of Rain's decisions are terrible. His game against Last on Whiteout was a great idea with the frontal bust and that ASL4 game against Ample where he scouted his ghosts and switched to corsairs was another great on the spot decision making, but from my perspective, he's not the epitome of good decision making.
That is because the protoss-versus-zerg match-up has an innate information disparity in favour of the zerg race, which means smart players such as BeSt cannot reason themselves into victory. Bisu always used to have his third expansion up faster than other protoss players versus the zerg race because he utilizes key units such as corsairs to do all these things simultaneously:
1) Scout the zerg
2) Pressure the zerg
3) Be ready to win the multi-tasking fight if the zerg commits to an all-in because he is sick and tired of chasing your corsairs around (such as sacking the main army for a dark templar sneak-in, or killing all the unprotected overlords at a cost that overall comes out ahead for the protoss player)
This meant that Bisu could get his third expansion without having to add additional gateways to be safe, or have robotics bay at the ready, and just keep the zerg at bay merely through unit movement alone while skipping all these middle steps that other protoss players had to take, Bisu was like the boxer who could fight without having his guards up.
Mini doesn't play like Bisu. He plays like Kal. He doesn't use his multi-tasking to get his expansions out faster for the superior mid-game, he does piercing plays that comes in one sequence after another (with deadly micro-management skills), while forgetting about managing his bases properly like Bisu used to do. Mini's attacks slowly lose their momentum over time if the opponent is good enough to stop the blisteringly potent attacks, like how By.Baby used to do mind melting dropship plays, but got too invested in them, instead of using them to keep the opponent flustered and busy while taking additional bases.
I really don't understand how Mini can be perceived as being more calculated and methodical in his plays, just because Rain had lapses in judgement over the course of his career.
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Animus - you’re bringing up every instance that he lost - we can do the same for any other player, including Flash. Those examples have literally nothing to do with lack of understanding. Do you suggest he got lucky in the last 4-5 ASL/KSL’s? Note the only players who have better results than Rain are Flash and Last - pretty hard to do that in the majors with a poor understanding of the game, not to mention he’s lost 0 sets in PvP in the modern era.
If one can play textbook yet still have the 2nd or 3rd most consistent results, that screams superior understanding. It takes the most understanding to execute standard play than it does to win games with all in builds.
One thing I will note is that it’s easier to understand what is going on when you’re watching the game as a spectator, than when you’re playing the game. Sometimes, what seems obvious with vision is not so obvious to the actual players, given pros very often utilize feints.
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The one weakness that almost every pro protoss seems to have the lack of urgency to mass gateway upon reaching 5+ bases and ramax ASAP upon engaging near 200 terran army.
mini and rain are culpable, right from the first mini/last g1 mini didnt track when last finally made his turtle neck stick out, got thrown in a fluster when his army is actually in a perfect concave position to attack, and decide to retreat them back across the bridge where you have even a worse engagement point. obv he stifled and proceed to die quickly. i was "wtf" at the screen and basically stop watching. and i think i also watch a game of rain on stream or something where he was happily moping about 130 supply after engaging, letting thousands of minerals/gas bank and only remaxing half a minute off like, 10 gateways.
the only protoss that actually seems to get this atm is BeSt. watching his games vs Flash onstream was a sheer delight the play of a protoss whose is not afraid of the terran army knowing he can remax asap and start threatening again is refreshing. as of this year he is 18-18 with flash which is imo extremely impressive (for comparison rain is 0-13 lul). too bad he lacks the engagement/micro subtleness the other protoss have like how he let s his arbiters get emp carelessly or that funny probe mine. fucking has the best potential when it comes to PvT just always starts playing erratic and screws it up in offline performances, numerous times. really wish some of the balloons best gets can be used to hire sports psychologist to help with his issues .
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Best is an absolute monster at PvT. I root for him every ASL/KSL but he disappoints me. His games vs. Flash in the DSL were amazing. Unfortunately, that style doesn't work very well vs. Z, which has always been his weakness. Snow's a lot more versatile than Best, and also great at PvT.
I do really hope we see both Best/Snow in the RO8's of these tournaments more.
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That is because the protoss-versus-zerg match-up has an innate information disparity in favour of the zerg race, which means smart players such as BeSt cannot reason themselves into victory. Sorry, thats bs. Yes protoss struggle to fully see what zerg are up to, and even with diligent scouting theres a few key timings where zerg can snap an unaware protoss' neck, but an intelligent player who truly understands pvz, as well as the psychology of his opponent, can predict a zergs actions even if they lack the total picture. Best has no instinct or proclivity in pvz whatsoever, he never did.
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On March 22 2019 01:17 Dazed. wrote:Show nested quote +That is because the protoss-versus-zerg match-up has an innate information disparity in favour of the zerg race, which means smart players such as BeSt cannot reason themselves into victory. Sorry, thats bs. Yes protoss struggle to fully see what zerg are up to, and even with diligent scouting theres a few key timings where zerg can snap an unaware protoss' neck, but an intelligent player who truly understands pvz, as well as the psychology of his opponent, can predict a zergs actions even if they lack the total picture. Best has no instinct or proclivity in pvz whatsoever, he never did.
Not sure if I agree with comments re: Best because I'm shaky on my memory of his PvZ, but I do agree overall with what's being said here. There is no "innate" disparity between Protoss and Zerg in scouting. Zerg spends more gas/minerals on units sacrificed to get a snapshot of what the Protoss is doing and that's especially true if you lose the overlord scout. Protoss always gets an earlier scout on Zerg with a probe which is hell to kill once inside a base. A good Protoss can delay the natural, scout for several minutes until lair tech is done, and usually get an idea of spire timing. Zerg, meanwhile, will get only a scout on the natural and is lucky to sneak some lings in to look at the main before they are battling off corsairs and slipping in an extra scourge (which costs 75 gas, btw) just to finally get a look at the toss's main. While it is true that you can send the initial overlord in (sometimes) or a second ovie where there are no cannons, this comes at the guaranteed cost of supply and 100 minerals. So I have to agree that in no way is Zerg unfairly advantaged when it comes to Protoss/zerg vision. Not to mention the huge range that observers get and how hard it can be to pick those off without having your army slaughtered in the process. We can talk about race balance all day, but there's never going to be any finality in discussions like this. In my opinion, Zerg and Protoss are on fair (yet different) footing with respect to vision and scouting.
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On March 22 2019 01:17 Dazed. wrote:Show nested quote +That is because the protoss-versus-zerg match-up has an innate information disparity in favour of the zerg race, which means smart players such as BeSt cannot reason themselves into victory. Sorry, thats bs. Yes protoss struggle to fully see what zerg are up to, and even with diligent scouting theres a few key timings where zerg can snap an unaware protoss' neck, but an intelligent player who truly understands pvz, as well as the psychology of his opponent, can predict a zergs actions even if they lack the total picture. Best has no instinct or proclivity in pvz whatsoever, he never did.
Information access based on skill does not suggest that there's a parity in information. Early game information for the protoss player is gated heavily by skill, whereas it is less so for the zerg player. Bisu does not make better reads than BeSt simply because BeSt has zero instinct for the protoss-versus-zerg match-up, but because his probe stays alive for longer, because his initial zealot harass buys more time and covers more ground, and because his corsairs open up more of the map more than what BeSt's corsairs can do. Intuition based on skill is a quality separate from streamlined information processing given upfront data.
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On March 22 2019 03:14 SC_ar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2019 01:17 Dazed. wrote:That is because the protoss-versus-zerg match-up has an innate information disparity in favour of the zerg race, which means smart players such as BeSt cannot reason themselves into victory. Sorry, thats bs. Yes protoss struggle to fully see what zerg are up to, and even with diligent scouting theres a few key timings where zerg can snap an unaware protoss' neck, but an intelligent player who truly understands pvz, as well as the psychology of his opponent, can predict a zergs actions even if they lack the total picture. Best has no instinct or proclivity in pvz whatsoever, he never did. Not sure if I agree with comments re: Best because I'm shaky on my memory of his PvZ, but I do agree overall with what's being said here. There is no "innate" disparity between Protoss and Zerg in scouting. Zerg spends more gas/minerals on units sacrificed to get a snapshot of what the Protoss is doing and that's especially true if you lose the overlord scout. Protoss always gets an earlier scout on Zerg with a probe which is hell to kill once inside a base. A good Protoss can delay the natural, scout for several minutes until lair tech is done, and usually get an idea of spire timing. Zerg, meanwhile, will get only a scout on the natural and is lucky to sneak some lings in to look at the main before they are battling off corsairs and slipping in an extra scourge (which costs 75 gas, btw) just to finally get a look at the toss's main. While it is true that you can send the initial overlord in (sometimes) or a second ovie where there are no cannons, this comes at the guaranteed cost of supply and 100 minerals. So I have to agree that in no way is Zerg unfairly advantaged when it comes to Protoss/zerg vision. Not to mention the huge range that observers get and how hard it can be to pick those off without having your army slaughtered in the process. We can talk about race balance all day, but there's never going to be any finality in discussions like this. In my opinion, Zerg and Protoss are on fair (yet different) footing with respect to vision and scouting.
This is a thought exercise I'd recommend for you, if both the zerg and protoss player had map hack on (no vision for cloaked units, just open access to all the information on the map), who would benefit more? Information disparity is one of the issues protoss players struggle with the most, and yes it can be overcome to some degree, but just because an adversity can be conquered doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I'm not even talking about overall balance here, but how the fuck would access of information be on an even footing for both zerg and protoss players? There are zergs who base their entire fucking game around information denial, and making the protoss player guess a lot.
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Well, playing forge fast expand certainly incurs an information disparity. If the P goes for other more proactive builds, there might be more of an argument against there being a disparity.
Then again, I think Letmelose's thought experiment is a very good one, and seems to suggest even gateway expand is playing from a disparity.
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Is letmelose a notable player? Great content -thumbs up-
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On March 22 2019 11:32 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2019 03:14 SC_ar wrote:On March 22 2019 01:17 Dazed. wrote:That is because the protoss-versus-zerg match-up has an innate information disparity in favour of the zerg race, which means smart players such as BeSt cannot reason themselves into victory. Sorry, thats bs. Yes protoss struggle to fully see what zerg are up to, and even with diligent scouting theres a few key timings where zerg can snap an unaware protoss' neck, but an intelligent player who truly understands pvz, as well as the psychology of his opponent, can predict a zergs actions even if they lack the total picture. Best has no instinct or proclivity in pvz whatsoever, he never did. Not sure if I agree with comments re: Best because I'm shaky on my memory of his PvZ, but I do agree overall with what's being said here. There is no "innate" disparity between Protoss and Zerg in scouting. Zerg spends more gas/minerals on units sacrificed to get a snapshot of what the Protoss is doing and that's especially true if you lose the overlord scout. Protoss always gets an earlier scout on Zerg with a probe which is hell to kill once inside a base. A good Protoss can delay the natural, scout for several minutes until lair tech is done, and usually get an idea of spire timing. Zerg, meanwhile, will get only a scout on the natural and is lucky to sneak some lings in to look at the main before they are battling off corsairs and slipping in an extra scourge (which costs 75 gas, btw) just to finally get a look at the toss's main. While it is true that you can send the initial overlord in (sometimes) or a second ovie where there are no cannons, this comes at the guaranteed cost of supply and 100 minerals. So I have to agree that in no way is Zerg unfairly advantaged when it comes to Protoss/zerg vision. Not to mention the huge range that observers get and how hard it can be to pick those off without having your army slaughtered in the process. We can talk about race balance all day, but there's never going to be any finality in discussions like this. In my opinion, Zerg and Protoss are on fair (yet different) footing with respect to vision and scouting. This is a thought exercise I'd recommend for you, if both the zerg and protoss player had map hack on (no vision for cloaked units, just open access to all the information on the map), who would benefit more? Information disparity is one of the issues protoss players struggle with the most, and yes it can be overcome to some degree, but just because an adversity can be conquered doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm not even talking about overall balance here, but how the fuck would access of information be on an even footing for both zerg and protoss players? There are zergs who base their entire fucking game around information denial, and making the protoss player guess a lot.
I will not reciprocate profanity in responding, and I'm really not trying to be disagreeable. I am but a low level bum of a zerg, and my opinions are based on what I see among fellow low grade players such as myself because we are the 90% of players who suck but still have fun with this game. Perhaps I should tailor my response more to what I see from the pros. Nevertheless... I find myself stumped by the notion that Protoss is on substantially unequal footing with zerg regarding "information disparity."
What does this term mean exactly?
That its harder for toss to scout zerg? Because I flat out do not agree with that.
That its easier for zerg to surprise attack Protoss? I suppose this is true in general, but certainly not as a game progresses.
That Zergs have this large bag of tricks they can whip out on unsuspecting Protoss players? Almost everything zerg does past the seven minute mark of any PvZ game is predictable. However, Protoss does have the power to powerfully tech switch in the mid or late games.
That Zergs, in general, can get better map coverage with their units? Okay, this I accept. But I think the ease with which you can fly corsairs all over the map with only the fear of scourge more than makes up for the fact that I can came a zergling in a potential path of the protoss army ball.
Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by information disparity in general. Maybe if you could elaborate a bit more. I have engaged in your thought experiment, and I am not getting "it." So perhaps if you care to explain specifically how Protoss is distinctly disadvantaged. Like, what exactly is it hard for Protoss to know that it is substantially easier for zerg to know? What can't you do as Protoss to get information that zerg can do so easily? Are there not protosses who base their strategy on limiting what their opponent knows? And does every player of every race not hope to do this every game?
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I will not reciprocate profanity in responding, and I'm really not trying to be disagreeable. I have a lot of respect for letmelose.
I am but a low level bum of a zerg, and my opinions are based on what I see among fellow low grade players such as myself because we are the 90% of players who suck but still have fun with this game. Perhaps I should tailor my response more to what I see from the pros. Nevertheless... I find myself stumped by the notion that Protoss is on substantially unequal footing with zerg regarding "information disparity."
What does this term mean exactly?
That its harder for toss to scout zerg? Because I flat out do not agree with that.
That its easier for zerg to surprise attack Protoss? I suppose this is true in general, but certainly not as a game progresses.
That Zergs have this large bag of tricks they can whip out on unsuspecting Protoss players? Almost everything zerg does past the seven minute mark of any PvZ game is predictable. However, Protoss does have the power to tech switch in the mid or late games with devastating results.
That Zergs, in general, can get better map coverage with their units? Okay, this I accept. But I think the ease with which you can fly corsairs all over the map with only the fear of scourge more than makes up for the fact that I can camp a zergling in a potential path of the protoss army ball.
Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by information disparity in general. Maybe if you could elaborate a bit more. I have engaged in your thought experiment, and I am not getting "it." So perhaps if you care to explain specifically how Protoss is distinctly disadvantaged. Like, what exactly is it hard for Protoss to know that it is substantially easier for zerg to know? What can't you do as Protoss to get information that zerg can do so easily? Are there not protosses who base their strategy on limiting what their opponent knows? And does every player of every race not hope to do this every game?
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I'll try to convey my thoughts concisely, and this will be my last say on the matter.
Optimization creates a greater divergence in the early game. Even minor details like one more or less cannon may not matter much in the late game, but it is of huge importance in the early game. Build optimization can be put into deadly effect especially in the earlier stages of the game the more crystal clear information you have.
The overlord allows the zerg player to scout the protoss player, everything from zealot timings to cybernetics core timings, without needing any particular skill other than to process the information given on the screen. His attention is devoted to denying information from the protoss player, by chasing, or even more optimally, killing the scouting probe with his initial zerglings. The protoss player is gated from further information until he has the skill capacity to evade zerglings with his probes without being pushed outside of the zerg base, and even then it is uncertain whether the probe lasts as long as the overlord stays inside the protoss base.
Watch any random game of a protoss versus zerg match-up, and try to time the moment the overlord is forced outside of the protoss base or is killed during scouting duty, and the moment the probes are chased outside of the zerg base or is killed during scouting duty. It is a battle of skill to see whether the protoss player can gain access to information freely available for the zerg player for the initial stages of the game.
This is the reason why I am of the belief that if both sides have map hacks on, the protoss race benefits from map hacks much more than the zerg race does. Access to information is why one of the biggest factors in the early game is how long the inital scouting probe lasts inside the zerg base, and one of the main reasons why corsairs are so key in this match-up, despite the fact that intuition tells us that they're not the unit counters to hydralisk centric builds that are so prevalent these days.
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I appreciate you following up, and I do see the purpose of your exercise now. I see how Protoss is in the dark while Z is not, but I still think overall information disparity is even because Protoss will have an easier time scouting than zerg as the matchup goes on and keeps that advantage so long as they have a corsair. They also retain the initial (albeit small) advantage in most games because probe scout delivers the same but often more information about openings.
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On March 26 2019 02:48 SC_ar wrote:
I appreciate you following up, and I do see the purpose of your exercise now. I see how Protoss is in the dark while Z is not, but I still think overall information disparity is even because Protoss will have an easier time scouting than zerg as the matchup goes on and keeps that advantage so long as they have a corsair. They also retain the initial (albeit small) advantage in most games because probe scout delivers the same but often more information about openings.
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On March 26 2019 02:48 SC_ar wrote:
I appreciate you following up, and I do see the purpose of your exercise now. I see how Protoss is in the dark while Z is not, but I still think overall information disparity is even because Protoss will have an easier time scouting than zerg as the matchup goes on and keeps that advantage so long as they have a corsair. They also retain the initial (albeit small) advantage in most games because probe scout delivers the same but often more information about openings.
before the corsair is out on the map u can have either been fucked by masslings or hydrabust.
Oh u made too many canons? zerg got 5hatch with insane eco.
keeping the probe alive is the only way for protoss to know whatsup, cuz if it dies there are no way in hell ur getting another one in there
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On March 26 2019 04:05 elKa-ThE-FeArEd wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2019 02:48 SC_ar wrote:
I appreciate you following up, and I do see the purpose of your exercise now. I see how Protoss is in the dark while Z is not, but I still think overall information disparity is even because Protoss will have an easier time scouting than zerg as the matchup goes on and keeps that advantage so long as they have a corsair. They also retain the initial (albeit small) advantage in most games because probe scout delivers the same but often more information about openings. before the corsair is out on the map u can have either been fucked by masslings or hydrabust. Oh u made too many canons? zerg got 5hatch with insane eco. keeping the probe alive is the only way for protoss to know whatsup, cuz if it dies there are no way in hell ur getting another one in there
The scouting probe generally shouldn't die until ling speed is done.
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EPT
