[ASL7] Grand Finals - Mini vs Last
Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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onlystar
United States971 Posts
btw its pretty awesome how mini seems to have improved his gameplay over the years steadily since he started streaming and now seems to be at the level of top tier progamers | ||
mierin
United States4938 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
can't in good conscience support protoss let alone mini. that guy is possibly the most abusive pvt player. block chain is also one of the most retarded maps known to mankind. | ||
Greg_J
China4408 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
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EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
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byj
491 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada1994 Posts
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superjoppe
Sweden3680 Posts
On March 17 2019 17:02 razorsuKe wrote: The crowd isn't as packed as last season :o Both names are kinda meh. I barely knew who Mini was before this season. | ||
byj
491 Posts
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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sM.Zik
Canada2542 Posts
On March 17 2019 17:05 superjoppe wrote: Both names are kinda meh. I barely knew who Mini was before this season. They're long time pro, both were legit in the kespa days aswell. Im hyped! | ||
Ikirouta
Finland726 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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byj
491 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3208 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On March 17 2019 17:10 ne4aJIb wrote: is en stream working? Yeah it's working fine dude. | ||
superjoppe
Sweden3680 Posts
On March 17 2019 17:07 sM.Zik wrote: They're long time pro, both were legit in the kespa days aswell. Im hyped! I’m not saying they’re not pros, or that the games won’t be good. But let’s not kid ourselves, a Flash vs Larva final would bring tons of more people. | ||
Proko
United States1022 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24562 Posts
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sM.Zik
Canada2542 Posts
On March 17 2019 17:11 superjoppe wrote: I’m not saying they’re not pros, or that the games won’t be good. But let’s not kid ourselves, a Flash vs Larva final would bring tons of more people. Of course. Personally I am not a fan of Larva but I agree with you. | ||
xM(Z
Romania5257 Posts
On March 17 2019 17:10 ne4aJIb wrote: i'm getting is en stream working? The page isn’t redirecting properly andPale Moon has detected that the server is redirecting the request for this address in a way that will never complete. This problem can sometimes be caused by disabling or refusing to accept cookies. play.afreecatv.com redirected you too many times. on Blink engine Vivaldi.Edit: i clicked on view on afreecatv, down left button, and it works if on http://play.afreecatv.com/aslenglish/212355085 | ||
Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On March 17 2019 17:11 Proko wrote: I'm rooting for Mini, but I know he's an underdog. same. any protoss that can beat effort in a BoX has my heart | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
On March 17 2019 17:18 xM(Z wrote: i'm getting andon Blink engine Vivaldi go to the stream directly http://play.afreecatv.com/aslenglish | ||
Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Sabu113
United States11032 Posts
Grah. Disappointed with Rain and Snow not doing better but Last is such a disgustingly sick terran. Hoping for mini as the toss hope but Last looked scary in a macro game with Rain. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
On March 17 2019 17:21 Alejandrisha wrote: Rain has 18k viewers while asl and wesg have about 8.5k each. hmm. Flash rain and britney are casting from rain's stream, its not surprising some people like watching their favorite players cast too | ||
superjoppe
Sweden3680 Posts
On March 17 2019 17:18 xM(Z wrote: i'm getting andon Blink engine Vivaldi. Edit: i clicked on view on afreecatv, down left button, and it works if on http://play.afreecatv.com/aslenglish/212355085 Why not just stream from YouTube? https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCK5eBtuoj_HkdXKHNmBLAXg | ||
Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On March 17 2019 17:25 BLinD-RawR wrote: Flash rain and britney are casting from rain's stream, its not surprising some people like watching their favorite players cast too that makes a lot of sense. have too many streams open at once didn't want to chance it :D | ||
superjoppe
Sweden3680 Posts
Because of that I root for Mini, Protoss needs more love! | ||
Motivate
2860 Posts
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Sabu113
United States11032 Posts
Poll: Heart Mini (11) Last (7) My heart is coal tasteless (3) 21 total votes Your vote: Heart | ||
Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On March 17 2019 17:34 Sabu113 wrote: Poll: Heart Mini (11) Last (7) My heart is coal tasteless (3) 21 total votes Your vote: Heart i'm just a chunk of coal like norm | ||
Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On March 17 2019 17:37 BLinD-RawR wrote: Last is so smart i thought it was a pretty intelligent move from mini to assume last was going to open vulture and not machine shop. i don't usually see protosses play it that safe with the goons | ||
Heartland
Sweden24562 Posts
You're a real gem | ||
Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
edit: spoke too soon i just love those scarabs that hit like 4 depots and academy and refinery lolol | ||
Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
carbon is a hell of an element. a hellelement. | ||
Greg_J
China4408 Posts
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Sabu113
United States11032 Posts
Hey here are 5000 ways I can exploit you hahahaha gogogo Mini. | ||
Ikirouta
Finland726 Posts
On March 17 2019 17:08 Ikirouta wrote: I really hope Mini does the really late zealot legs, multiple speed shuttle style that he played alot on his stream last year one game, at least. Did... I ... predict ... the ... future? | ||
Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
haha that or you saw his only pvt since this one and this is his pvt :D | ||
Sabu113
United States11032 Posts
Needs some Jangbi storms. No goliaths. Just turrets everywhere. Lack of observers could be brutal. JANGBI STORMS | ||
Heartland
Sweden24562 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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Greg_J
China4408 Posts
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Sabu113
United States11032 Posts
On March 17 2019 17:48 Motivate wrote: how does mini have so much when he lost so much early game? Has he really been touched all match? Plus he keeps trimming the tank count regularly. | ||
Akio
Finland1824 Posts
Already a super entertaining series! | ||
Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24562 Posts
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Ikirouta
Finland726 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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Sabu113
United States11032 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24562 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On March 17 2019 17:51 Ikirouta wrote: What an anticlimactic finish. agreed. i don't know if he could have afforded to add 10 gates at 6 o clock but it seems like he bought himself a lot of time and expanded way ahead of terran. will have to watch again and am looking forward to it. great game anyway | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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byj
491 Posts
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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mierin
United States4938 Posts
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oxKnu
1128 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On March 17 2019 17:53 KamMoye wrote: Last looks like the superior player tbh they looked pretty even in terms of ability for a while. i was impressed with mini's safety and i think he can adapt and there were a few big moments that went in last's favor that were unforced errors. while there is no guarantee mini won't make the same errors later in the series, i think mini can right the ship with just a few adjustments. needs a coach or friend or something to clear his head. he is very emotional player | ||
Ikirouta
Finland726 Posts
On March 17 2019 17:54 oxKnu wrote: So how do you spell Tesagi? Tea soggy? | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9652 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
i always said Tay-Sah-Ghee in my head . new band name called it. | ||
mierin
United States4938 Posts
On March 17 2019 17:54 oxKnu wrote: So how do you spell Tesagi? "Brood war meta" is the translation, they had to manufacture an entire map pool so Flash wouldn't win | ||
Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On March 17 2019 17:56 mierin wrote: "Brood war meta" is the translation, they had to manufacture an entire map pool so Flash wouldn't win lol was just having a conversation about this on discord.. sparkle and 3rd world and they still just BARELY stole the asl from flash | ||
mierin
United States4938 Posts
On March 17 2019 17:57 Alejandrisha wrote: lol was just having a conversation about this on discord.. sparkle and 3rd world and they still just BARELY stole the asl from flash That's why I sort of laugh about the SC2 "best player in the world" stuff...when maps have to be made specifically to defeat a certain player, then I think a case can be made. | ||
Motivate
2860 Posts
On March 17 2019 17:57 Alejandrisha wrote: lol was just having a conversation about this on discord.. sparkle and 3rd world and they still just BARELY stole the asl from flash lols sparkle zvt was hilarious borderline unwinnable for terran >:D | ||
Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On March 17 2019 18:01 Motivate wrote: lols sparkle zvt was hilarious borderline unwinnable for terran >:D leave it to flash to find a way to win 1 game on 1 map. ever see that game of his vs P on monty hall? guy doesn't think like the rest of us, man. | ||
Ikirouta
Finland726 Posts
On March 17 2019 18:01 Motivate wrote: lols sparkle zvt was hilarious borderline unwinnable for terran >:D I think if Sparkle was around for a longer time, with some balance changes it would be a great map. Definitely taking island maps to the right direction. I'd love to see moar island maps | ||
Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On March 17 2019 18:01 mierin wrote: That's why I sort of laugh about the SC2 "best player in the world" stuff...when maps have to be made specifically to defeat a certain player, then I think a case can be made. yeah. and he had bad wrists so he couldn't just 5rax every zerg on regular maps anyway so he had to be even more strategic and what do you know the ultimate weapon adapts. not much can do on 3rd world tvp in a macro game though. flash's 2 tank 8 marine play was cute though :D | ||
byj
491 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On March 17 2019 18:04 Ikirouta wrote: I think if Sparkle was around for a longer time, with some balance changes it would be a great map. Definitely taking island maps to the right direction. I'd love to see moar island maps i think they should have kept experimenting with sparkle to some extent. like how much gas does it take for zerg to be imba lol let's try to find the exact threshold so you can put the appropriate # on the 3rd gas. I always thought it should have started as depleted but that's just me edit: or AT MOST 1000 gas | ||
Motivate
2860 Posts
On March 17 2019 18:04 Ikirouta wrote: I think if Sparkle was around for a longer time, with some balance changes it would be a great map. Definitely taking island maps to the right direction. I'd love to see moar island maps problem is, zvp is so hard without the extra gas on sparkle. the extra gas makes tvz basically impossible though? the ASL games were disgusting to watch, and i felt for the terrans that weren't flash lol.... make hydras, drop, gg. pvt was somewhat balanced on sparkle though wasnt it? | ||
maybenexttime
Poland5231 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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Ikirouta
Finland726 Posts
On March 17 2019 18:17 BLinD-RawR wrote: REPAIR IMBA | ||
Heartland
Sweden24562 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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Greg_J
China4408 Posts
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada1994 Posts
Mini... damn man so entertaining O_O | ||
byj
491 Posts
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24562 Posts
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sysen
26 Posts
I think i said myself ; OK mini cant lose this one. Then , OK last cant lose this... And finally... wow what a game | ||
letian
Germany4221 Posts
On March 17 2019 18:31 Heartland wrote: Of course my stream lagged during the final parts. Did anything cool happen in the last two minutes? Youtube stream? Afreeca does not work well for me | ||
M3t4PhYzX
Poland3788 Posts
amazing. savage. Advanced positional play and attacking ability by Mini. GG! | ||
Ikirouta
Finland726 Posts
On March 17 2019 18:32 letian wrote: Youtube stream? Afreeca does not work well for me Try streamlink, works perfectly. https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/512913-guide-watch-afreeca-sc-bw-streams-with-vlc | ||
Ikirouta
Finland726 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada1994 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada1994 Posts
1 shot, 2 reavs dead :o | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
On March 17 2019 18:48 Motivate wrote: how do the players not hear the crowd? sound proof headphones | ||
Motivate
2860 Posts
they were never that good remember even with the booths bisu could hear the fans reaction to flash's proxy? | ||
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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mechzdeus
88 Posts
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
On March 17 2019 18:59 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Don't they use earphones emitting white noise under the headphone nowadays? thats what i was curious about... i msure they're better than they used to be if they're playing without sound proof booths these days? | ||
AzAlexZ
Australia3302 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
On March 17 2019 18:53 Motivate wrote: they were never that good remember even with the booths bisu could hear the fans reaction to flash's proxy? the technology has come a long way since kespa era when we needed booths and boothgirls......some would say its a downgrade. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9652 Posts
>get early advantage with good timings and micro >try to push your lead too far >build 20 shuttles >try to break a well defended position >lose your lead >macro poorly >get pushed >physically tilt >gg >repeat until series is over | ||
Motivate
2860 Posts
On March 17 2019 19:05 FlaShFTW wrote: >be mini >get early advantage with good timings and micro >try to push your lead too far >build 20 shuttles >try to break a well defended position >lose your lead >macro poorly >get pushed >physically tilt >gg >repeat until series is over hi i'm mini, i don't like playing with an advantage so i'll throw units away in a haphazard way to end the game because my late game macro is mediocre | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9652 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24562 Posts
On March 17 2019 19:10 FlaShFTW wrote: his body language already tells me hes given up Wolf, is that you? | ||
weiliem
2049 Posts
On March 17 2019 19:05 BLinD-RawR wrote: the technology has come a long way since kespa era when we needed booths and boothgirls......some would say its a downgrade. Without boothgirls now?? Definately a downgrade.... | ||
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States9652 Posts
i dont know this reference. but it really does look like it. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24562 Posts
On March 17 2019 19:18 BLinD-RawR wrote: DEUS VULTURE hahaha | ||
Heartland
Sweden24562 Posts
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goody153
43992 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland3788 Posts
Damn. | ||
oxKnu
1128 Posts
But blockchain is so P favored right? | ||
Heartland
Sweden24562 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
On March 17 2019 19:29 oxKnu wrote: buildable terrain for T But blockchain is so P favored right? because all maps should have unbuildable terrain in the middle and those that don't are T favoured | ||
Heartland
Sweden24562 Posts
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friendbg
Bulgaria576 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
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Akio
Finland1824 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
On March 17 2019 19:31 friendbg wrote: Mini should have been ready for that floating fac he was unfortunately he got slapped on 2 fronts | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9652 Posts
On March 17 2019 19:31 friendbg wrote: Mini should have been ready for that floating fac to be fair, he put the pylon down there to make sure last didnt rty anything funky... but last then build the fact on the outside. vs rain he build it inside. mini should have scouted with probe though, but last played this game with 3million IQ. super smat, the bunker rush at the front as well to take attention aawy from the the floating fact. and then the proper response to turret push against fast carriers was beautiful. Mini played this series sloppily and how he normally plays when he gets tilted, continue to bash your head into a wall and slowly lose. very sad stuff to watch but were we really surprised? | ||
oxKnu
1128 Posts
On March 17 2019 19:31 Motivate wrote: because all maps should have unbuildable terrain in the middle and those that don't are T favoured Middle? This guy is a comedian right here...can't stop laughing. | ||
r33k
Italy3402 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
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friendbg
Bulgaria576 Posts
On March 17 2019 19:33 FlaShFTW wrote: to be fair, he put the pylon down there to make sure last didnt rty anything funky... but last then build the fact on the outside. vs rain he build it inside. mini should have scouted with probe though, but last played this game with 3million IQ. super smat, the bunker rush at the front as well to take attention aawy from the the floating fact. and then the proper response to turret push against fast carriers was beautiful. Mini played this series sloppily and how he normally plays when he gets tilted, continue to bash your head into a wall and slowly lose. very sad stuff to watch but were we really surprised? He did overcome that and came back vs effort, so I was hoping | ||
Qikz
United Kingdom12010 Posts
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Incomplete..ReV
Norway598 Posts
As the series went on, I felt it just got progressively worse. I still feel that Mini has the potential for greatness, but when he starts crumbling, he really falls apart. Last showed some really, really good play, though! It'd be a decent finals, if it weren't for the semi-finals. Pretty good Game 1 and 2, the rest was "meh" and left a sense of disappointment. Very happy for Last, congratulations! Well deserved! And I hope Mini can keep improving and getting mentally stronger in the future - I expect great things from him (although reaching the ASL finals, beating effort on the way there, is pretty darn great in itself!) :D | ||
Nematocyst
United States164 Posts
On March 17 2019 19:29 oxKnu wrote: But blockchain is so P favored right? After the Ro24, I think the casters just decided it was P favored from the results. But Ro16 onward by that metric, it was heavily T favored. (not that limited ASL results is the best metric) Last was 4-0 on the map vs P. Snow, Rain 2x, and Mini. The ones vs Rain were pretty good, but the one against Snow was very exciting. Best lost to Mind on it too. Hard to say its P favored and mean it. | ||
Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
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oxKnu
1128 Posts
On March 17 2019 20:11 Dante08 wrote: I don't think the games are a good indication of balance at all. Last beat Snow with a proxy rax vs nexus first and 2 x proxy fac vs Rain and Mini, and 1 game was Rain doing a proxy gate which did nothing. Those were hardly standard games. Right.. So let me get this right...the record doesn't count because it wasn't standard games, although these are played between top pros at the highest level, but it does count when Terran has anything close to a losing record or god forbid, equal win/loss record to the other races. Yeah I think I get it now. Thanks. | ||
mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
judging from the replay, mini moved his main army around to the top side of the map and kept no vision of the direct route to watch for an army move from last?? seems weak | ||
Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
Props to the champ, he gave us the best Ro8 and best Ro4. | ||
Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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Artas1984
80 Posts
SOMEBODY PROVIDE A LINK PLEASE! And don't spoil anything! | ||
Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
On March 17 2019 21:20 Jackal03 wrote: By the way, anyone has a link to rewatch the games? youtube video is blocked for song copyright, as aways click on the afreecatv stream on the front page then you should be able to go to recent streams or something. | ||
lepape
Canada557 Posts
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whaski
Finland575 Posts
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Starecat
932 Posts
I'm sorry for those who will depend on the Afreeca shitty player, I hope they focus on retrieving lost VODs before the next season. | ||
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On March 17 2019 20:17 oxKnu wrote: Right.. So let me get this right...the record doesn't count because it wasn't standard games, although these are played between top pros at the highest level, but it does count when Terran has anything close to a losing record or god forbid, equal win/loss record to the other races. Yeah I think I get it now. Thanks. Results so far suggest BC is actually Terran favoured. I've stated as much in several previews already, citing sponbbang statistics. Protoss wins on that map in ASL were against lesser foes - jyj and Tinkle come to mind. You are free to elaborate why the map is Terran favoured or you can be edgy. Any discussion is preferable to throwing thinly veiled balance whine. I apologize in advance if that's not what you meant. | ||
Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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oxKnu
1128 Posts
On March 17 2019 23:26 TaardadAiel wrote: Results so far suggest BC is actually Terran favoured. I've stated as much in several previews already, citing sponbbang statistics. Protoss wins on that map in ASL were against lesser foes - jyj and Tinkle come to mind. You are free to elaborate why the map is Terran favoured or you can be edgy. Any discussion is preferable to throwing thinly veiled balance whine. I apologize in advance if that's not what you meant. Most arguments have been made already. My general sentiment is towards the common brigade of people assaulting every new map as imbalanced because "Terran can't win on it" when all is said and done, actual results and games indicated otherwise. Blockchain being the perfect example for it. In short: Terrans love to whine about maps no matter what, and I fricking hate it. | ||
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia320 Posts
On March 17 2019 23:31 oxKnu wrote: Most arguments have been made already. My general sentiment is towards the common brigade of people assaulting every new map as imbalanced because "Terran can't win on it" when all is said and done, actual results and games indicated otherwise. Blockchain being the perfect example for it. In short: Terrans love to whine about maps no matter what, and I fricking hate it. When all is said and done, it is, as per usual, individual Terrans emerging as multiple winners. | ||
J. Corsair
United States470 Posts
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Artas1984
80 Posts
On March 17 2019 23:24 whaski wrote: Finally Last takes ASL. Really great season and well deserved victory for Last! Stupid! Spoiled everything!!! | ||
Incomplete..ReV
Norway598 Posts
Uh, are you serious? This thread is to discuss and comment on the games as they happens and after the matter. If you read here, it's entirely your own fault for getting spoiled. | ||
oxKnu
1128 Posts
On March 17 2019 23:38 TaardadAiel wrote: Is this about the ASL5 map pool or this season's? In general, ASL5 was disgusting in particular for me. All of the talk was about how everything was designed to take down Flash and Terrans when the actual imbalanced map, Transistor, was not even in the discussion. So many hot takes with no actual technical points to base it on. | ||
Incomplete..ReV
Norway598 Posts
On March 18 2019 00:42 oxKnu wrote: In general, ASL5 was disgusting in particular for me. All of the talk was about how everything was designed to take down Flash and Terrans when the actual imbalanced map, Transistor, was not even in the discussion. So many hot takes with no actual technical points to base it on. Transistor was discussed. People even made a deal about how good Flash was for being able to win the way he did, despite the map. And I also feel it's almost always mentioned how Snow did beat him on Gladiator (generally considered balanced), to point out that they're not putting all the credit to the maps, but that Snow really did play good enough to earn his win. | ||
oxKnu
1128 Posts
On March 18 2019 01:12 Incomplete..ReV wrote: Transistor was discussed. People even made a deal about how good Flash was for being able to win the way he did, despite the map. And I also feel it's almost always mentioned how Snow did beat him on Gladiator (generally considered balanced), to point out that they're not putting all the credit to the maps, but that Snow really did play good enough to earn his win. Fair point. Keep in mind that I'm also talking here about general SC people, not just this forum. Here people are generally quite astute in their analysis for the most part. | ||
Jealous
9974 Posts
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Nematocyst
United States164 Posts
On March 18 2019 00:24 J. Corsair wrote: Blocked on YouTube. The grand final. Thanks, afreeca. I doubt it's afreeca that's the problem. I think it's safe to assume what they are doing is legal in Korea. If not, fine, blame them. I think it's better to blame either US copyright laws, or to blame Youtube's erring on a side that clobbers fair use. It wouldn't surprise me if what afreeca is doing falls under fair use provisions even in US copyright law, but who the heck wants to try to get youtube to reverse that block? (for every single one) If I were afreeca, I wouldn't bother-- being content to do what's reasonable (posting to YT for the fans outside Korea) and let the fans direct complaints to the right place. | ||
Turbovolver
Australia2282 Posts
On March 18 2019 03:25 Jealous wrote: How can the afreeca player crash so fucking much omfg. Basically unusable. Is this not a problem in Korea or something???? I was watching Soulkey's stream of the finals with commentary simply because it was the first place I found the finals on YouTube. And just in game one, he was getting lag, and had to go change settings somehow when it just died completely. I'm not so sure it even works that well in Korea? -_- | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9652 Posts
On March 18 2019 03:25 Jealous wrote: How can the afreeca player crash so fucking much omfg. Basically unusable. Is this not a problem in Korea or something???? I didnt have one problem with afreeca last night. probably just you | ||
Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
Eithe rworks perfectly or not at all | ||
Turbovolver
Australia2282 Posts
On March 17 2019 20:17 oxKnu wrote: Right.. So let me get this right...the record doesn't count because it wasn't standard games, although these are played between top pros at the highest level, but it does count when Terran has anything close to a losing record or god forbid, equal win/loss record to the other races. Yeah I think I get it now. Thanks. Uhhh no, it is absolutely correct and logical to not take a sample size of 4 cheese games as indicative of fucking anything regarding a map's balance. | ||
LocoBolon
Argentina243 Posts
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YPang
United States4024 Posts
On March 18 2019 08:36 Turbovolver wrote: Uhhh no, it is absolutely correct and logical to not take a sample size of 4 cheese games as indicative of fucking anything regarding a map's balance. ^This... | ||
Aminus
Bulgaria35 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4076 Posts
On March 18 2019 08:56 Aminus wrote: End of game 2 and i can definitely say, mini is the best protoss player right now, Rain so overrated. Mini showing much much better and complicated games against same opponents Rain got defeated already and in general... And the fact Mini does that by wining a game from a big dissadvantage conquering his own mind just calls for so good story of ones deep improvement not only in game but in character and spirit. Thats the protoss spirit! This side of his is truly spectacular, however, he is not fast enough to be the best imo, either protoss or player, every game when the pressure came, he was banking a lot, in one of the games I think number 3, I was absolutely sure that there was a spectator's bug and it stopped showing mini's spent resources so they are piling there infinitely. This is not Warcraft 3, piling resources is always wrong and harmful. | ||
goody153
43992 Posts
On March 18 2019 05:38 FlaShFTW wrote: I didnt have one problem with afreeca last night. probably just you Afreeca half the time doesn't work for me. Including last night. So anybody has any idea where i can find the vods from last night ? The youtube one got flagged. | ||
Burned Toast
Canada2040 Posts
On March 18 2019 09:12 goody153 wrote: Afreeca half the time doesn't work for me. Including last night. So anybody has any idea where i can find the vods from last night ? The youtube one got flagged. The VODs are available on the Best's YT channel : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFHUplScMiWTjJrtv4hxWmg/videos Warning : You'll be spoiled by the numbers of videos. | ||
Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
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goody153
43992 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2675 Posts
>open TL >"Last Appreciation Thread" on top of general >know the winner instantly based | ||
NoS-Craig
Australia3078 Posts
Edit: I read through the thread again. If you don't want spoilers, then don't read through an Live report thread. How dense can you be? | ||
GunSlinger
614 Posts
Step 1: Everyone complain that Block Chain is favoured towards Protoss. Step 2: Last keeps a 100% winrate in the ASL on Block Chain (5 games) as a Terran. Four out of the five are against Protoss. Profit: Last wins the ASL. GG. When Last floated the factory over the wall to counter the fast Nexus from Mini, I was like, "Oh yeah, why would this ever work against Terran? This is so obvious." And yet there it is... Mini doin it. Maybe he didn't watch Last's game against Snow? ^^ Great games but Last is really on another level right now. On March 18 2019 08:56 Aminus wrote: ...in one of the games I think number 3, I was absolutely sure that there was a spectator's bug and it stopped showing mini's spent resources so they are piling there infinitely. This is not Warcraft 3, piling resources is always wrong and harmful. Please do not speak in absolutes, especially when they are false. When you are at max supply piling resources is of course, not harmful. In the super late game as well. When you are not max supply but have very high supply, sometimes piling resources is not harmful. As sometimes you need that open supply when you are about to max out, but are not sure what to build just yet (waiting for scouting info, etc.). I don't want to be this guy right now, since I realize this is a random flippant remark, but I think a distinction needs to be made here. Somebody might get the wrong idea from reading that. | ||
GunSlinger
614 Posts
EDIT - lol sorry ^^ | ||
NoS-Craig
Australia3078 Posts
Either way, It was a fun series to watch. I remember when I saw that Corsair in on match point I first thought it was for disturb web. I wonder if we'll see more of Corsairs to combat Wraiths in PvT? | ||
mierin
United States4938 Posts
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onlystar
United States971 Posts
On March 18 2019 10:50 Terrorbladder wrote: >missed the games >open TL >"Last Appreciation Thread" on top of general >know the winner instantly based justto add you are aware now its just best to stay away from TL when u really dont want any spoilers i mean even looking at the streambar and see a possible winner of the match ontop of the streambar ull also know who won | ||
LocoBolon
Argentina243 Posts
On March 18 2019 08:56 Aminus wrote: End of game 2 and i can definitely say, mini is the best protoss player right now, Rain so overrated. Mini showing much much better and complicated games against same opponents Rain got defeated already and in general... And the fact Mini does that by wining a game from a big dissadvantage conquering his own mind just calls for so good story of ones deep improvement not only in game but in character and spirit. Thats the protoss spirit! Rain so overrated? Lol are you out of your mind? He is smarter and emotionally stronger than Mini to say the least, champ material Strategy, decision making and bran wise, Rain is the closest thing to Flash that exist in the Protoss realm. "overrated"... pfff don't make me laugh | ||
Just_a_Moth
Canada1939 Posts
On March 18 2019 13:01 LocoBolon wrote: Rain overrated? He is smarter and emotionally stronger than Mini. Strategy, decision making and bran wise, Rain is the closest thing to Flash that exist in the Protoss realm. Also the the closest thing to Last. | ||
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On March 18 2019 00:42 oxKnu wrote: In general, ASL5 was disgusting in particular for me. All of the talk was about how everything was designed to take down Flash and Terrans when the actual imbalanced map, Transistor, was not even in the discussion. So many hot takes with no actual technical points to base it on. But it was designed to take down Flash, someone said as much explicitly afaik. And yes, Transistor was discussed and then when Flash won with his cute timing he was also praised. The usual argument is about Third World, since it was played twice in his series vs Snow and he lost twice. It does feel P favoured and statistics confirm this, albeit slightly (something about 53% off the top of my head). And yes, people did point out that Flash lost on Gladiator. Until a certain point in the game I was SURE that Flash was winning, so props to Snow for playing amazing PvT I suppose. That's what Flash did anyway - he gave credit to Snow. I had more issues with PvZ map balance in ASL5, tbh. And possibly this season, too, even if we had neither Soulkey nor larva in the elimination phase. I haven't checked any statistics though. | ||
M3t4PhYzX
Poland3788 Posts
ugh.. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
Game 1: He broke the siege line with that nice attack with storm and got a lift at the third. Great, move back, take another base, macro up w/e but then he made another attack with his mostly goon army into mines and tanks losing a lot of units. He did ok afterwards especially when he got that nice storm drop at Last's fourth, but after that, it was all Last. Game 2: He won, but he was really close to losing it had it not been for the growing carrier count+great positioning for his zealot/goon army outside Last's expansion. Game 3: He defended the first aggression by Last pretty well, but was impatient and couldn't wait like 2 seconds for his obs so he lost a goon and his other 2 went to red hp. Then he went for that large attack on Last's third when there were lots of tanks+mines losing not only most of his army, but his 2 reavers as well. He could've sat back and threatened a poke or even sieged the cc with his reavers from afar (believe reavers were right outside the range of closest tank and if not, just a light contain is good enough) then he could've expanded to the top right and kept trading. Game 4: Let's not get started on this one lol Still, this was a nice series to watch and congrats to Last! Finally an ASL win and our first ASL/KSL dual champion so we'll have to wait and see if any Terrans can top him off. | ||
asel
Germany1597 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4076 Posts
On March 18 2019 11:40 GunSlinger wrote: Balance whine? Laaaaaaaaaaaaawl. Step 1: Everyone complain that Block Chain is favoured towards Protoss. Step 2: Last keeps a 100% winrate in the ASL on Block Chain (5 games) as a Terran. Four out of the five are against Protoss. Profit: Last wins the ASL. GG. When Last floated the factory over the wall to counter the fast Nexus from Mini, I was like, "Oh yeah, why would this ever work against Terran? This is so obvious." And yet there it is... Mini doin it. Maybe he didn't watch Last's game against Snow? ^^ Great games but Last is really on another level right now. Please do not speak in absolutes, especially when they are false. When you are at max supply piling resources is of course, not harmful. In the super late game as well. When you are not max supply but have very high supply, sometimes piling resources is not harmful. As sometimes you need that open supply when you are about to max out, but are not sure what to build just yet (waiting for scouting info, etc.). I don't want to be this guy right now, since I realize this is a random flippant remark, but I think a distinction needs to be made here. Somebody might get the wrong idea from reading that. Well if the goal is to penetrate my argument, you can also add that sometimes zergs pile resources to unleash mass mutas or ultralisks. I am assuming that people using this forum have enough broodwar knowledge and IQ to understand what I am trying to say, without the need of pinpointing all the exceptions that are irrelevant to the main idea of the argument | ||
ajmbek
Italy459 Posts
oh man, if after a final you do not want to get spoiled do not go on TL | ||
LfunkGG
78 Posts
afreeca is so terrible it's impossible to watch than 5 min without crashing. i mean why do you even have english casters? how come you build a video streaming website, you decide it's good enough to cast finals in, but it crashes every 5 minute when you playback? i just dont get it. | ||
JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On March 18 2019 17:39 BigFan wrote: Game 4: Let's not get started on this one lol I don't understand the sentiment in this thread towards g4. I thought Last played brilliantly in this series but especially so in this game. Mini did his homework and blocked the in base proxy fact but Last's frontal push with vultures and marines was so well designed to keep Mini occupied to block the factory float. What was Mini supposed to do? There was simply not enough time to stop the factory from landing at his 6 oclock nex. I'm not taking into account any possible blunders that happened after that because the game was already lost after Last's brilliant opening, so if you were referring to that I get it. | ||
errol1001
454 Posts
On March 18 2019 17:39 BigFan wrote: Am I the only one that thought Mini could've actually went 2-3, maybe even potentially 3-2 had he done things a bit differently. His style of playing is definitely unique and he's not afraid to throw things and be aggressive which is why Last went for wraith every single game, except last one. But at the same time, he never tried any cheese and in most of the games, he made such large blunders. I would have liked to see him try something, but I'm not really sure how well it would have worked. It kinda feels to me like a lot of protoss cheeses rely on your opponent being off their game, rather than you being on your game. What are some things you would have liked to see? | ||
Jealous
9974 Posts
On March 18 2019 17:39 BigFan wrote: Am I the only one that thought Mini could've actually went 2-3, maybe even potentially 3-2 had he done things a bit differently. His style of playing is definitely unique and he's not afraid to throw things and be aggressive which is why Last went for wraith every single game, except last one. But at the same time, he never tried any cheese and in most of the games, he made such large blunders. Game 1: He broke the siege line with that nice attack with storm and got a lift at the third. Great, move back, take another base, macro up w/e but then he made another attack with his mostly goon army into mines and tanks losing a lot of units. He did ok afterwards especially when he got that nice storm drop at Last's fourth, but after that, it was all Last. Game 2: He won, but he was really close to losing it had it not been for the growing carrier count+great positioning for his zealot/goon army outside Last's expansion. Game 3: He defended the first aggression by Last pretty well, but was impatient and couldn't wait like 2 seconds for his obs so he lost a goon and his other 2 went to red hp. Then he went for that large attack on Last's third when there were lots of tanks+mines losing not only most of his army, but his 2 reavers as well. He could've sat back and threatened a poke or even sieged the cc with his reavers from afar (believe reavers were right outside the range of closest tank and if not, just a light contain is good enough) then he could've expanded to the top right and kept trading. Game 4: Let's not get started on this one lol Still, this was a nice series to watch and congrats to Last! Finally an ASL win and our first ASL/KSL dual champion so we'll have to wait and see if any Terrans can top him off. He DID try to cheese on MP (early Probe send into gas steal) but Last took the gas himself. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19033 Posts
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orvinreyes
577 Posts
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Aminus
Bulgaria35 Posts
On March 18 2019 13:01 LocoBolon wrote: Rain so overrated? Lol are you out of your mind? He is smarter and emotionally stronger than Mini to say the least, champ material Strategy, decision making and bran wise, Rain is the closest thing to Flash that exist in the Protoss realm. "overrated"... pfff don't make me laugh Yes, Rain is overrated, unless you didnt see effort toy with him 3-0. How is Rain smarter? Emotionally stronger he is, but Mini shows great talent, with much more complicated and well thought games. the main reason mini lost finals was emotions. Only reason Rain won ASL was that Snow defeated flash in bo5 in the semifinal, Snow was the real champ of that ASL. | ||
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19033 Posts
On March 19 2019 08:25 Dazed. wrote: minis also no jaehoon, hes been showing marked improvement in handling anxiety and pressure, winning from behind etc. Hes due for a star league win this year i think He better hurry before Bisu returns and Flash starts back up P | ||
Ideas
United States7956 Posts
Every game was fun, wish we could have gotten a 5th set. Last played fantastically the entire tournament after losing his first match to Calm in the Ro16. Mini's micro is so damn good, and his focus/composure seems to be have gotten way better in this tournament. I really hope he keeps it going and makes it all the way this year. | ||
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On March 19 2019 07:53 Aminus wrote: Yes, Rain is overrated, unless you didnt see effort toy with him 3-0. How is Rain smarter? Emotionally stronger he is, but Mini shows great talent, with much more complicated and well thought games. the main reason mini lost finals was emotions. Only reason Rain won ASL was that Snow defeated flash in bo5 in the semifinal, Snow was the real champ of that ASL. Mini packs a stronger aggressive punch due to his stellar micro-management that can throw more well rounded players off guard, but Rain has a tendency to rely less on unlikely outplays, and bases his games on decisions built on sound reasoning. Mini plays a more elaborate playstyle, while Rain keeps things less volatile, but what you see on screen are not representative of how deep their thought processes are for the games. Rain has some of the best understanding of the game from a protoss player, and this aspect is something Mini has always respected Rain for. Even during their Discord chat sessions, Mini has once jokingly said to Rain (but with a grain of truth) that protoss race as a whole was doomed because the brightest player (Rain), is not motivated enough to push the race forward. In what may be a bad analogy, Mini is like the dude who strikes harder but isn't that well organized in how he fights, while Rain plays like Floyd Mayweather Junior (obviously not at that level), he approaches the game methodically and there's great intellectual prowess going on behind what may seem like a commonplace gaming style. As an example, in game three of the finals, Mini had a picture perfect dragoon micro-management in the initial stages of the game, but invested into shuttles and units instead of powering up in terms of economy and tech, and Flash (who was spectating the finals alongside Rain) couldn't understand why Mini was doing this. He said BeSt would quite easily find a way to win from this already advantageous position without needing to pull off the aggressive play Mini was setting himself up for. Rain then said that Mini has this tendency to produce units with no purpose other than to playmake himself into an advantageous position with those units, often putting himself into unfavourable positions if he can't make full use of his units. It is just how Mini functions. He makes proactive plays with his units, and there's great skill involved in such plays, but there's sometimes zero logic in what Mini does other than he thinks he can outplay the opponent. I find Mini much more electric as a spectator than Rain, but personal tastes aside, Rain's credentials speak for themselves. He has been putting forth much more consistent and reliable results as a player in comparison to Mini, both online (he is the highest rated protoss player in terms of ELO points from online sponsored matches) and in tournaments over a lengthy period of time (he is the only player in the scene to have at least made the quarter-finals or above for every single ASL or KSL from 2018 onwards). I think you are under-valuing Rain due to his style of play, rather than his lack of competitive results. | ||
Nematocyst
United States164 Posts
On March 19 2019 11:47 Letmelose wrote: but Rain has a tendency to rely less on unlikely outplays, and bases his games on decisions built on sound reasoning. Exemplified in the Ro8 match vs Horang2. When you make sound decisions and aren't particularly flashy, this is what happens... shutting out a top player and making it look like your units began with upgrades. | ||
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On March 19 2019 13:48 Dazed. wrote: honestly i think rains lack of playmaking is what separates him from somebody truly great, i dont think you can play that textbook and straight as protoss and beat the absolute best at the highest venue. Mini i can see being someone truly great. I do somewhat agree with this sentiment. Especially in tournament play, games tend to diverge from the usual algorithm into extreme do or die situations, and this is where players who constantly push themselves to their mechanical limits shine. Flash said that Rain is one of the worst protoss players in terms of stopping early cheese rushes from terran players, and has a tendency to pick safe options with this false belief that he can reason himself out of literally any situation. With that being said, Mini is far from being a complete player himself. | ||
ggsimida
1100 Posts
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Jaeyun
United States199 Posts
In regards to his lack of playmaking - less confident players are way more likely to pull out crazier plays and all in builds than the better ones, because they know in the long game they’ll fall apart. Rain plays conservative, yes, but he plays solid because he knows he can go head to head with just about anybody. He had plenty of cool plays this ASL, including his wildcard match vs. Sharp (proxy robo vs Larva, hidden nexus vs. Horang2, 7:30 4 gate DT vs. Sharp). Watch his stream more often for a larger sample size or listen to what other pros say about him. All that aside, Mini has been my favorite Protoss for many months now because he plays a really exciting and distinct style. My description of Mini is that he’s easily the most dangerous Protoss in a 3 or 5 game series, but in no way is he as rounded of a player like Rain. I applaud him for besting Effort this season but he intended on going the distance in none of those 5 games. | ||
Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
For PvZ it is the opposite, you need more crazy skirmish micro to mess up Zerg and less of perfekt understanding of the game. This is also to me why Mini (and ofc Bisu in his prime) would be the scariest to face in PvZ. While Rain look so crazy in PvT. But with a little more volatileness I think Rain would stomp even more in both matchups. | ||
fredtheswimmer1
1 Post
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On March 19 2019 11:47 Letmelose wrote: Mini packs a stronger aggressive punch due to his stellar micro-management that can throw more well rounded players off guard, but Rain has a tendency to rely less on unlikely outplays, and bases his games on decisions built on sound reasoning. Mini plays a more elaborate playstyle, while Rain keeps things less volatile, but what you see on screen are not representative of how deep their thought processes are for the games. Rain has some of the best understanding of the game from a protoss player, and this aspect is something Mini has always respected Rain for. Even during their Discord chat sessions, Mini has once jokingly said to Rain (but with a grain of truth) that protoss race as a whole was doomed because the brightest player (Rain), is not motivated enough to push the race forward. In what may be a bad analogy, Mini is like the dude who strikes harder but isn't that well organized in how he fights, while Rain plays like Floyd Mayweather Junior (obviously not at that level), he approaches the game methodically and there's great intellectual prowess going on behind what may seem like a commonplace gaming style. As an example, in game three of the finals, Mini had a picture perfect dragoon micro-management in the initial stages of the game, but invested into shuttles and units instead of powering up in terms of economy and tech, and Flash (who was spectating the finals alongside Rain) couldn't understand why Mini was doing this. He said BeSt would quite easily find a way to win from this already advantageous position without needing to pull off the aggressive play Mini was setting himself up for. Rain then said that Mini has this tendency to produce units with no purpose other than to playmake himself into an advantageous position with those units, often putting himself into unfavourable positions if he can't make full use of his units. It is just how Mini functions. He makes proactive plays with his units, and there's great skill involved in such plays, but there's sometimes zero logic in what Mini does other than he thinks he can outplay the opponent. I find Mini much more electric as a spectator than Rain, but personal tastes aside, Rain's credentials speak for themselves. He has been putting forth much more consistent and reliable results as a player in comparison to Mini, both online (he is the highest rated protoss player in terms of ELO points from online sponsored matches) and in tournaments over a lengthy period of time (he is the only player in the scene to have at least made the quarter-finals or above for every single ASL or KSL from 2018 onwards). I think you are under-valuing Rain due to his style of play, rather than his lack of competitive results. On March 19 2019 15:05 Jaeyun wrote: Letmelose hit the nail on the head in his analysis of Rain and Mini. Rain’s not the sexiest Protoss like a Bisu but his understanding and consistency really should speak for itself. Just go back to the last 4-5 ASL/KSL’s - and try to find the list of players that put up better cumulative results than him and you’ll be left with a very elite group of players. In regards to his lack of playmaking - less confident players are way more likely to pull out crazier plays and all in builds than the better ones, because they know in the long game they’ll fall apart. Rain plays conservative, yes, but he plays solid because he knows he can go head to head with just about anybody. He had plenty of cool plays this ASL, including his wildcard match vs. Sharp (proxy robo vs Larva, hidden nexus vs. Horang2, 7:30 4 gate DT vs. Sharp). Watch his stream more often for a larger sample size or listen to what other pros say about him. All that aside, Mini has been my favorite Protoss for many months now because he plays a really exciting and distinct style. My description of Mini is that he’s easily the most dangerous Protoss in a 3 or 5 game series, but in no way is he as rounded of a player like Rain. I applaud him for besting Effort this season but he intended on going the distance in none of those 5 games. Thanks for the analysis guys, I can relate to what you're saying. I truly enjoy how Mini tries to do things his own way, knowing well that he isn't as solid a player as Last is. On March 19 2019 22:58 fredtheswimmer1 wrote: Are the VODs available anywhere? I missed the live broadcast :/ http://vod.afreecatv.com/PLAYER/STATION/42458592 For future reference, all the VODs can be found here: https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/402419-small-vod-thread-20 | ||
M3t4PhYzX
Poland3788 Posts
Just a great one overall. | ||
Aminus
Bulgaria35 Posts
On March 19 2019 11:47 Letmelose wrote: Mini packs a stronger aggressive punch due to his stellar micro-management that can throw more well rounded players off guard, but Rain has a tendency to rely less on unlikely outplays, and bases his games on decisions built on sound reasoning. Mini plays a more elaborate playstyle, while Rain keeps things less volatile, but what you see on screen are not representative of how deep their thought processes are for the games. Rain has some of the best understanding of the game from a protoss player, and this aspect is something Mini has always respected Rain for. Even during their Discord chat sessions, Mini has once jokingly said to Rain (but with a grain of truth) that protoss race as a whole was doomed because the brightest player (Rain), is not motivated enough to push the race forward. In what may be a bad analogy, Mini is like the dude who strikes harder but isn't that well organized in how he fights, while Rain plays like Floyd Mayweather Junior (obviously not at that level), he approaches the game methodically and there's great intellectual prowess going on behind what may seem like a commonplace gaming style. As an example, in game three of the finals, Mini had a picture perfect dragoon micro-management in the initial stages of the game, but invested into shuttles and units instead of powering up in terms of economy and tech, and Flash (who was spectating the finals alongside Rain) couldn't understand why Mini was doing this. He said BeSt would quite easily find a way to win from this already advantageous position without needing to pull off the aggressive play Mini was setting himself up for. Rain then said that Mini has this tendency to produce units with no purpose other than to playmake himself into an advantageous position with those units, often putting himself into unfavourable positions if he can't make full use of his units. It is just how Mini functions. He makes proactive plays with his units, and there's great skill involved in such plays, but there's sometimes zero logic in what Mini does other than he thinks he can outplay the opponent. I find Mini much more electric as a spectator than Rain, but personal tastes aside, Rain's credentials speak for themselves. He has been putting forth much more consistent and reliable results as a player in comparison to Mini, both online (he is the highest rated protoss player in terms of ELO points from online sponsored matches) and in tournaments over a lengthy period of time (he is the only player in the scene to have at least made the quarter-finals or above for every single ASL or KSL from 2018 onwards). I think you are under-valuing Rain due to his style of play, rather than his lack of competitive results. "Rain has some of the best understanding of the game from a protoss player" Is exactly what i think he lacks the most. He showed noticeablelack of understanding, in pvz late game when he faced Soulkey in one of the previous ASLs i think it was a group match since it was bo1, Rain literally didnt know what to do other than walk around with his army not even attacking unitl soulkey lurker contained the whole map, then he suicided 200/200 army and lost the game. He does show lack of understanding in his first game against Leta this ASL, when he didnt read at all that not so hard to read drop build and got completelly thrown off by it. Same in the first game against Last where he scouted the timing and number of factories, had around the same number of gates as factories with the difference that he started his gates after last facts were finished and instead of getting the full potential of his lower number of untis by gathering them all and preventing last from walking over the map with the push, he did the exact opposite of what it shoud be done, he separated all his units on small groups and lost them... Droped 2 shuttles of units on the third, one of with was reavers that couldve weaken the push significantly, and left 12 dragoons to die in front of Lasts natural. What about first game against Effort, he saw big overlord move out, then he was fully unaware of the drop possibility even tho he wasnt seeing any ovies at effort bases while flying around... these are just few sound examples of what i can remember at first thought. Rain game understanding is lacking imo, his power lies in solid textbook play, good macro and strong mentality. And Mini really showing deeper games and better execution with the lack of mental strenght, Mini showed much stronger play against Effort compared to Rain, and got himself in better positions while playing vs Last, followed by his nerves which made him do costly overcommitments, like in that game where he panicked after last pushed and walked such long distance to attack last 3rd with the mindset that he will draw last back to defend which is not even logical since last can be already at Mini's natural... Imo Mini is a great talent even if not more talented than Rain and he can shine bright after he improve his stabillity. Rain is super solid but seems to lack passion and imagination. If i can make parallel, i would say Rain is the Protoss representation of what Flash and Soulkey are in their own races, but younger weaker version not achieved its full potential. | ||
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On March 21 2019 12:36 Aminus wrote: "Rain has some of the best understanding of the game from a protoss player" Is exactly what i think he lacks the most. He showed complete lack of understanding, in pvz late game when he faced Soulkey in one of the previous ASLs i think it was a group match since it was bo1, Rain literally didnt know what to do other than walk around with his army not even attacking unitl soulkey lurker contained the whole map, then he suicided 200/200 army and lost the game. He does show lack of understanding in his first game against Leta this ASL, when he didnt read at all that not so hard to read drop build and got completelly thrown off by it. Same in the first game against Last where he scouted the timing and number of factories, had around the same number of gates as factories with the difference that he started his gates after last facts were finished and instead of getting the full potential of his lower number of untis by gathering them all and preventing last from walking over the map with the push, he did the exact opposite of what it shoud be done, he separated all his units on small groups and lost them... Droped 2 shuttles of units on the third, one of with was reavers that couldve weaken the push significantly, and left 12 dragoons to die in front of Lasts natural. What about first game against Effort, he saw big overlord move out, then he was fully unaware of the drop possibility even tho he wasnt seeing any ovies at effort bases while flying around... these are just few sound examples of what i can remember at first thought. Rain game understanding is lacking imo, his power lies in solid textbook play, good macro and strong mentality. And Mini really showing deeper games and better execution with the lack of mental strenght, Mini showed much stronger play against Effort compared to Rain, and got himself in better positions while playing vs Last, followed by his nerves which made him do costly overcommitments, like in that game where he panicked after last pushed and walked such long distance to attack last 3rd with the mindset that he will draw last back to defend which is not even logical since last can be already at Mini's natural... Imo Mini is a great talent even if not more talented player than Rain and that can shine bright after he improve his stabillity. Rain is super solid but seems to lack passion and imagination. If i can make parallel, i would say Rain is the Protoss representation of what Flash and Soulkey are in their own races, but younger weaker version not achieved its full potential. If you sit both Rain and Mini down to watch a game involving a protoss player, and ask them what the protoss player should do in the upcoming minutes to come, for any moment in the game, I would vouch almost every time that Rain would have a more formulaic and well reasoned explanation of what the protoss should carry out to win the game theoretically speaking. Even Flash misreads situations at his demise, and I think you are basing your judgement off a very narrow sample size of games that suits your particular narrative. My statements are based on what fellow ex-professionals say, the perception of the spectators who watch these streamers on a daily basis, and how these players in question perceive their own play to be (Mini himself mentioned that he is an early game player who relies on his micro-management abilities), not constructing my entire narrative around I want to see and hear after watching a few select games from tournament play. There's a level of build order optimization to Rain's play that far exceeds Mini's, and while it may seem very formulaic and rigid, this very quality allows Rain to win games without requiring the 'imagination' and 'overcommitments that could have gone right if Mini wasn't nervous'. Mini's style by nature makes him extremely volatile, and he does tend to tunnel vision hard on his unit outplay, and gets quite sloppy at managing his bases in an optimal manner. It makes him very proactive as a player, and of course when you base your entire game on brute forcing proactive plays with skill, you can excuse his horrible misplays and failures as merely results of 'lacking emotional composure', and reversely speaking, Rain does have misreads (and the same sort of excuses like Rain having an off day can be put forth just like your excuses for Mini) but the majority of the time he wins off correct reads and decision making. It is difficult for Rain play like Mini because he doesn't have Mini's insane micro-management skills which allows him to make bold and sometimes foolish proactive outplays. However, I would also guarantee Mini trying to play the formulaic and well reasoned style of Rain would make you want to claw your eyes out. If you are merely talking about gaming intelligence, and how quickly somebody masters the fundamental cerebral stepping stones to get good at a game without mastering the technical aspects, Rain is one of the most talented gamers this scene has ever produced. Mini is more talented than Rain in his own little quirky way, but gaming understanding is not one of them. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
Now, this doesn't mean all of Rain's decisions are terrible. His game against Last on Whiteout was a great idea with the frontal bust and that ASL4 game against Ample where he scouted his ghosts and switched to corsairs was another great on the spot decision making, but from my perspective, he's not the epitome of good decision making. | ||
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On March 21 2019 13:37 BigFan wrote: I also disagree on parts of the Rain aspect. His games against Larva in ASL4 are a prime example of bad decision making imo. For me, Rain has always been a fantastic macro toss who can pull off cheese builds and Bisu-like moves rarely, but his micro lacks otherwise and he has wonky decisions at times too. Mini on the other hand excels more at micro and control, less at macro in comparison to Rain and seems to make blunders trying to put him in a great position after an advantageous situation. We saw this in his finals vs Last on Neo Sylphid for instance. Now, this doesn't mean all of Rain's decisions are terrible. His game against Last on Whiteout was a great idea with the frontal bust and that ASL4 game against Ample where he scouted his ghosts and switched to corsairs was another great on the spot decision making, but from my perspective, he's not the epitome of good decision making. That is because the protoss-versus-zerg match-up has an innate information disparity in favour of the zerg race, which means smart players such as BeSt cannot reason themselves into victory. Bisu always used to have his third expansion up faster than other protoss players versus the zerg race because he utilizes key units such as corsairs to do all these things simultaneously: 1) Scout the zerg 2) Pressure the zerg 3) Be ready to win the multi-tasking fight if the zerg commits to an all-in because he is sick and tired of chasing your corsairs around (such as sacking the main army for a dark templar sneak-in, or killing all the unprotected overlords at a cost that overall comes out ahead for the protoss player) This meant that Bisu could get his third expansion without having to add additional gateways to be safe, or have robotics bay at the ready, and just keep the zerg at bay merely through unit movement alone while skipping all these middle steps that other protoss players had to take, Bisu was like the boxer who could fight without having his guards up. Mini doesn't play like Bisu. He plays like Kal. He doesn't use his multi-tasking to get his expansions out faster for the superior mid-game, he does piercing plays that comes in one sequence after another (with deadly micro-management skills), while forgetting about managing his bases properly like Bisu used to do. Mini's attacks slowly lose their momentum over time if the opponent is good enough to stop the blisteringly potent attacks, like how By.Baby used to do mind melting dropship plays, but got too invested in them, instead of using them to keep the opponent flustered and busy while taking additional bases. I really don't understand how Mini can be perceived as being more calculated and methodical in his plays, just because Rain had lapses in judgement over the course of his career. | ||
Jaeyun
United States199 Posts
If one can play textbook yet still have the 2nd or 3rd most consistent results, that screams superior understanding. It takes the most understanding to execute standard play than it does to win games with all in builds. One thing I will note is that it’s easier to understand what is going on when you’re watching the game as a spectator, than when you’re playing the game. Sometimes, what seems obvious with vision is not so obvious to the actual players, given pros very often utilize feints. | ||
ggsimida
1100 Posts
mini and rain are culpable, right from the first mini/last g1 mini didnt track when last finally made his turtle neck stick out, got thrown in a fluster when his army is actually in a perfect concave position to attack, and decide to retreat them back across the bridge where you have even a worse engagement point. obv he stifled and proceed to die quickly. i was "wtf" at the screen and basically stop watching. and i think i also watch a game of rain on stream or something where he was happily moping about 130 supply after engaging, letting thousands of minerals/gas bank and only remaxing half a minute off like, 10 gateways. the only protoss that actually seems to get this atm is BeSt. watching his games vs Flash onstream was a sheer delight the play of a protoss whose is not afraid of the terran army knowing he can remax asap and start threatening again is refreshing. as of this year he is 18-18 with flash which is imo extremely impressive (for comparison rain is 0-13 lul). too bad he lacks the engagement/micro subtleness the other protoss have like how he let s his arbiters get emp carelessly or that funny probe mine. fucking has the best potential when it comes to PvT just always starts playing erratic and screws it up in offline performances, numerous times. really wish some of the balloons best gets can be used to hire sports psychologist to help with his issues . | ||
Jaeyun
United States199 Posts
I do really hope we see both Best/Snow in the RO8's of these tournaments more. | ||
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
That is because the protoss-versus-zerg match-up has an innate information disparity in favour of the zerg race, which means smart players such as BeSt cannot reason themselves into victory. Sorry, thats bs. Yes protoss struggle to fully see what zerg are up to, and even with diligent scouting theres a few key timings where zerg can snap an unaware protoss' neck, but an intelligent player who truly understands pvz, as well as the psychology of his opponent, can predict a zergs actions even if they lack the total picture. Best has no instinct or proclivity in pvz whatsoever, he never did. | ||
SC_ar
United States35 Posts
On March 22 2019 01:17 Dazed. wrote: Sorry, thats bs. Yes protoss struggle to fully see what zerg are up to, and even with diligent scouting theres a few key timings where zerg can snap an unaware protoss' neck, but an intelligent player who truly understands pvz, as well as the psychology of his opponent, can predict a zergs actions even if they lack the total picture. Best has no instinct or proclivity in pvz whatsoever, he never did. Not sure if I agree with comments re: Best because I'm shaky on my memory of his PvZ, but I do agree overall with what's being said here. There is no "innate" disparity between Protoss and Zerg in scouting. Zerg spends more gas/minerals on units sacrificed to get a snapshot of what the Protoss is doing and that's especially true if you lose the overlord scout. Protoss always gets an earlier scout on Zerg with a probe which is hell to kill once inside a base. A good Protoss can delay the natural, scout for several minutes until lair tech is done, and usually get an idea of spire timing. Zerg, meanwhile, will get only a scout on the natural and is lucky to sneak some lings in to look at the main before they are battling off corsairs and slipping in an extra scourge (which costs 75 gas, btw) just to finally get a look at the toss's main. While it is true that you can send the initial overlord in (sometimes) or a second ovie where there are no cannons, this comes at the guaranteed cost of supply and 100 minerals. So I have to agree that in no way is Zerg unfairly advantaged when it comes to Protoss/zerg vision. Not to mention the huge range that observers get and how hard it can be to pick those off without having your army slaughtered in the process. We can talk about race balance all day, but there's never going to be any finality in discussions like this. In my opinion, Zerg and Protoss are on fair (yet different) footing with respect to vision and scouting. | ||
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On March 22 2019 01:17 Dazed. wrote: Sorry, thats bs. Yes protoss struggle to fully see what zerg are up to, and even with diligent scouting theres a few key timings where zerg can snap an unaware protoss' neck, but an intelligent player who truly understands pvz, as well as the psychology of his opponent, can predict a zergs actions even if they lack the total picture. Best has no instinct or proclivity in pvz whatsoever, he never did. Information access based on skill does not suggest that there's a parity in information. Early game information for the protoss player is gated heavily by skill, whereas it is less so for the zerg player. Bisu does not make better reads than BeSt simply because BeSt has zero instinct for the protoss-versus-zerg match-up, but because his probe stays alive for longer, because his initial zealot harass buys more time and covers more ground, and because his corsairs open up more of the map more than what BeSt's corsairs can do. Intuition based on skill is a quality separate from streamlined information processing given upfront data. | ||
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On March 22 2019 03:14 SC_ar wrote: Not sure if I agree with comments re: Best because I'm shaky on my memory of his PvZ, but I do agree overall with what's being said here. There is no "innate" disparity between Protoss and Zerg in scouting. Zerg spends more gas/minerals on units sacrificed to get a snapshot of what the Protoss is doing and that's especially true if you lose the overlord scout. Protoss always gets an earlier scout on Zerg with a probe which is hell to kill once inside a base. A good Protoss can delay the natural, scout for several minutes until lair tech is done, and usually get an idea of spire timing. Zerg, meanwhile, will get only a scout on the natural and is lucky to sneak some lings in to look at the main before they are battling off corsairs and slipping in an extra scourge (which costs 75 gas, btw) just to finally get a look at the toss's main. While it is true that you can send the initial overlord in (sometimes) or a second ovie where there are no cannons, this comes at the guaranteed cost of supply and 100 minerals. So I have to agree that in no way is Zerg unfairly advantaged when it comes to Protoss/zerg vision. Not to mention the huge range that observers get and how hard it can be to pick those off without having your army slaughtered in the process. We can talk about race balance all day, but there's never going to be any finality in discussions like this. In my opinion, Zerg and Protoss are on fair (yet different) footing with respect to vision and scouting. This is a thought exercise I'd recommend for you, if both the zerg and protoss player had map hack on (no vision for cloaked units, just open access to all the information on the map), who would benefit more? Information disparity is one of the issues protoss players struggle with the most, and yes it can be overcome to some degree, but just because an adversity can be conquered doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm not even talking about overall balance here, but how the fuck would access of information be on an even footing for both zerg and protoss players? There are zergs who base their entire fucking game around information denial, and making the protoss player guess a lot. | ||
Jae Zedong
407 Posts
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Turbovolver
Australia2282 Posts
Then again, I think Letmelose's thought experiment is a very good one, and seems to suggest even gateway expand is playing from a disparity. | ||
KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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SC_ar
United States35 Posts
On March 22 2019 11:32 Letmelose wrote: This is a thought exercise I'd recommend for you, if both the zerg and protoss player had map hack on (no vision for cloaked units, just open access to all the information on the map), who would benefit more? Information disparity is one of the issues protoss players struggle with the most, and yes it can be overcome to some degree, but just because an adversity can be conquered doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm not even talking about overall balance here, but how the fuck would access of information be on an even footing for both zerg and protoss players? There are zergs who base their entire fucking game around information denial, and making the protoss player guess a lot. I will not reciprocate profanity in responding, and I'm really not trying to be disagreeable. I am but a low level bum of a zerg, and my opinions are based on what I see among fellow low grade players such as myself because we are the 90% of players who suck but still have fun with this game. Perhaps I should tailor my response more to what I see from the pros. Nevertheless... I find myself stumped by the notion that Protoss is on substantially unequal footing with zerg regarding "information disparity." What does this term mean exactly? That its harder for toss to scout zerg? Because I flat out do not agree with that. That its easier for zerg to surprise attack Protoss? I suppose this is true in general, but certainly not as a game progresses. That Zergs have this large bag of tricks they can whip out on unsuspecting Protoss players? Almost everything zerg does past the seven minute mark of any PvZ game is predictable. However, Protoss does have the power to powerfully tech switch in the mid or late games. That Zergs, in general, can get better map coverage with their units? Okay, this I accept. But I think the ease with which you can fly corsairs all over the map with only the fear of scourge more than makes up for the fact that I can came a zergling in a potential path of the protoss army ball. Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by information disparity in general. Maybe if you could elaborate a bit more. I have engaged in your thought experiment, and I am not getting "it." So perhaps if you care to explain specifically how Protoss is distinctly disadvantaged. Like, what exactly is it hard for Protoss to know that it is substantially easier for zerg to know? What can't you do as Protoss to get information that zerg can do so easily? Are there not protosses who base their strategy on limiting what their opponent knows? And does every player of every race not hope to do this every game? | ||
SC_ar
United States35 Posts
I am but a low level bum of a zerg, and my opinions are based on what I see among fellow low grade players such as myself because we are the 90% of players who suck but still have fun with this game. Perhaps I should tailor my response more to what I see from the pros. Nevertheless... I find myself stumped by the notion that Protoss is on substantially unequal footing with zerg regarding "information disparity." What does this term mean exactly? That its harder for toss to scout zerg? Because I flat out do not agree with that. That its easier for zerg to surprise attack Protoss? I suppose this is true in general, but certainly not as a game progresses. That Zergs have this large bag of tricks they can whip out on unsuspecting Protoss players? Almost everything zerg does past the seven minute mark of any PvZ game is predictable. However, Protoss does have the power to tech switch in the mid or late games with devastating results. That Zergs, in general, can get better map coverage with their units? Okay, this I accept. But I think the ease with which you can fly corsairs all over the map with only the fear of scourge more than makes up for the fact that I can camp a zergling in a potential path of the protoss army ball. Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by information disparity in general. Maybe if you could elaborate a bit more. I have engaged in your thought experiment, and I am not getting "it." So perhaps if you care to explain specifically how Protoss is distinctly disadvantaged. Like, what exactly is it hard for Protoss to know that it is substantially easier for zerg to know? What can't you do as Protoss to get information that zerg can do so easily? Are there not protosses who base their strategy on limiting what their opponent knows? And does every player of every race not hope to do this every game? | ||
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Optimization creates a greater divergence in the early game. Even minor details like one more or less cannon may not matter much in the late game, but it is of huge importance in the early game. Build optimization can be put into deadly effect especially in the earlier stages of the game the more crystal clear information you have. The overlord allows the zerg player to scout the protoss player, everything from zealot timings to cybernetics core timings, without needing any particular skill other than to process the information given on the screen. His attention is devoted to denying information from the protoss player, by chasing, or even more optimally, killing the scouting probe with his initial zerglings. The protoss player is gated from further information until he has the skill capacity to evade zerglings with his probes without being pushed outside of the zerg base, and even then it is uncertain whether the probe lasts as long as the overlord stays inside the protoss base. Watch any random game of a protoss versus zerg match-up, and try to time the moment the overlord is forced outside of the protoss base or is killed during scouting duty, and the moment the probes are chased outside of the zerg base or is killed during scouting duty. It is a battle of skill to see whether the protoss player can gain access to information freely available for the zerg player for the initial stages of the game. This is the reason why I am of the belief that if both sides have map hacks on, the protoss race benefits from map hacks much more than the zerg race does. Access to information is why one of the biggest factors in the early game is how long the inital scouting probe lasts inside the zerg base, and one of the main reasons why corsairs are so key in this match-up, despite the fact that intuition tells us that they're not the unit counters to hydralisk centric builds that are so prevalent these days. | ||
SC_ar
United States35 Posts
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Jealous
9974 Posts
On March 26 2019 02:48 SC_ar wrote: I appreciate you following up, and I do see the purpose of your exercise now. I see how Protoss is in the dark while Z is not, but I still think overall information disparity is even because Protoss will have an easier time scouting than zerg as the matchup goes on and keeps that advantage so long as they have a corsair. They also retain the initial (albeit small) advantage in most games because probe scout delivers the same but often more information about openings. | ||
elKa-ThE-FeArEd
Sweden174 Posts
On March 26 2019 02:48 SC_ar wrote: I appreciate you following up, and I do see the purpose of your exercise now. I see how Protoss is in the dark while Z is not, but I still think overall information disparity is even because Protoss will have an easier time scouting than zerg as the matchup goes on and keeps that advantage so long as they have a corsair. They also retain the initial (albeit small) advantage in most games because probe scout delivers the same but often more information about openings. before the corsair is out on the map u can have either been fucked by masslings or hydrabust. Oh u made too many canons? zerg got 5hatch with insane eco. keeping the probe alive is the only way for protoss to know whatsup, cuz if it dies there are no way in hell ur getting another one in there | ||
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
On March 26 2019 04:05 elKa-ThE-FeArEd wrote: before the corsair is out on the map u can have either been fucked by masslings or hydrabust. Oh u made too many canons? zerg got 5hatch with insane eco. keeping the probe alive is the only way for protoss to know whatsup, cuz if it dies there are no way in hell ur getting another one in there The scouting probe generally shouldn't die until ling speed is done. | ||
Ej_
47656 Posts
On March 26 2019 04:07 EndingLife wrote: The scouting probe generally shouldn't die until ling speed is done. Just play like Bisu and you're good | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19033 Posts
I actually believe this is why Bisu started going for +1 speedlot opening. It has the most security across builds zerg can open with and allows for opportunities to harrass and scout with zealots. I think that the build has fallen out of favor partly cause of maps and partly because of the poor multitasking abilities that non bisu players have in this matchup. | ||
v1p3r52
New Zealand181 Posts
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ggsimida
1100 Posts
On March 26 2019 04:07 EndingLife wrote: The scouting probe generally shouldn't die until ling speed is done. the standard trick for zerg is to attack click the probe with 1-2 ling to tag it constantly from the back, while a separate group of~ 4 lings attack it from the front as the probe turns about to evade the chasing ling. toss with poor micro/multitasking will lose it easily, while those are good will evade the lings for quite some time but will still start sustaining a lot of damage which result in them being evicted from the zerg main base most of the time. that is when zerg can build hydra den or lair in the main. toss generally then have to rely on check drone count/larva activity (9/7/3) in the nat and the 3rd with the probe and/or zeal pressure to sense whether zerg is going for hydra bust or not | ||
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
On March 26 2019 10:50 ggsimida wrote: the standard trick for zerg is to attack click the probe with 1-2 ling to tag it constantly from the back, while a separate group of~ 4 lings attack it from the front as the probe turns about to evade the chasing ling. toss with poor micro/multitasking will lose it easily, while those are good will evade the lings for quite some time but will still start sustaining a lot of damage which result in them being evicted from the zerg main base most of the time. that is when zerg can build hydra den or lair in the main. toss generally then have to rely on check drone count/larva activity (9/7/3) in the nat and the 3rd with the probe and/or zeal pressure to sense whether zerg is going for hydra bust or not It's much easier for a protoss to juke and mineral click the probe than it is for the zerg to attack it. I guess it depends on the player, but it should be much easier. | ||
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