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Mini's win from nowhere in g2 was so sexy. Am I the only one who enjoyed how Mini was approaching PvT without rushing to arbiters or carriers? Is anyone familiar with how Mini's PvT games usually go? Did he play worse than usual?
On March 18 2019 17:39 BigFan wrote:
Game 4: Let's not get started on this one lol
I don't understand the sentiment in this thread towards g4. I thought Last played brilliantly in this series but especially so in this game. Mini did his homework and blocked the in base proxy fact but Last's frontal push with vultures and marines was so well designed to keep Mini occupied to block the factory float. What was Mini supposed to do? There was simply not enough time to stop the factory from landing at his 6 oclock nex.
I'm not taking into account any possible blunders that happened after that because the game was already lost after Last's brilliant opening, so if you were referring to that I get it.
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On March 18 2019 17:39 BigFan wrote:
Am I the only one that thought Mini could've actually went 2-3, maybe even potentially 3-2 had he done things a bit differently. His style of playing is definitely unique and he's not afraid to throw things and be aggressive which is why Last went for wraith every single game, except last one. But at the same time, he never tried any cheese and in most of the games, he made such large blunders.
I would have liked to see him try something, but I'm not really sure how well it would have worked. It kinda feels to me like a lot of protoss cheeses rely on your opponent being off their game, rather than you being on your game. What are some things you would have liked to see?
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On March 18 2019 17:39 BigFan wrote:
Am I the only one that thought Mini could've actually went 2-3, maybe even potentially 3-2 had he done things a bit differently. His style of playing is definitely unique and he's not afraid to throw things and be aggressive which is why Last went for wraith every single game, except last one. But at the same time, he never tried any cheese and in most of the games, he made such large blunders.
Game 1: He broke the siege line with that nice attack with storm and got a lift at the third. Great, move back, take another base, macro up w/e but then he made another attack with his mostly goon army into mines and tanks losing a lot of units. He did ok afterwards especially when he got that nice storm drop at Last's fourth, but after that, it was all Last.
Game 2: He won, but he was really close to losing it had it not been for the growing carrier count+great positioning for his zealot/goon army outside Last's expansion.
Game 3: He defended the first aggression by Last pretty well, but was impatient and couldn't wait like 2 seconds for his obs so he lost a goon and his other 2 went to red hp. Then he went for that large attack on Last's third when there were lots of tanks+mines losing not only most of his army, but his 2 reavers as well. He could've sat back and threatened a poke or even sieged the cc with his reavers from afar (believe reavers were right outside the range of closest tank and if not, just a light contain is good enough) then he could've expanded to the top right and kept trading.
Game 4: Let's not get started on this one lol
Still, this was a nice series to watch and congrats to Last! Finally an ASL win and our first ASL/KSL dual champion so we'll have to wait and see if any Terrans can top him off.
He DID try to cheese on MP (early Probe send into gas steal) but Last took the gas himself.
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Bisutopia19229 Posts
Last played an amazing series and certainly earned his win. However, Mini made quite a few mistakes by being over aggressive in too many instances. I wholesomely enjoyed his play style and it is very exciting to watch, but players like Last and Flash thrive off of strong defensive play and hanging in there until 2-1 timings. I think Mini versus Sharp could have given us a more even series, but also a significantly scrappier one too.
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On March 18 2019 13:01 LocoBolon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2019 08:56 Aminus wrote:
End of game 2 and i can definitely say, mini is the best protoss player right now, Rain so overrated. Mini showing much much better and complicated games against same opponents Rain got defeated already and in general... And the fact Mini does that by wining a game from a big dissadvantage conquering his own mind just calls for so good story of ones deep improvement not only in game but in character and spirit. Thats the protoss spirit! Rain so overrated? Lol are you out of your mind? He is smarter and emotionally stronger than Mini to say the least, champ material Strategy, decision making and bran wise, Rain is the closest thing to Flash that exist in the Protoss realm. "overrated"... pfff don't make me laugh
Yes, Rain is overrated, unless you didnt see effort toy with him 3-0. How is Rain smarter? Emotionally stronger he is, but Mini shows great talent, with much more complicated and well thought games. the main reason mini lost finals was emotions. Only reason Rain won ASL was that Snow defeated flash in bo5 in the semifinal, Snow was the real champ of that ASL.
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minis also no jaehoon, hes been showing marked improvement in handling anxiety and pressure, winning from behind etc. Hes due for a star league win this year i think
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Bisutopia19229 Posts
On March 19 2019 08:25 Dazed. wrote:
minis also no jaehoon, hes been showing marked improvement in handling anxiety and pressure, winning from behind etc. Hes due for a star league win this year i think
He better hurry before Bisu returns and Flash starts back up P
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Mini's style of PvT is so fun to watch when it works, but so hard to watch when he clearly makes attacks into defended positions that there's no way he can actually break them :\ . I don't think his nerves cost him the series though. Even if he was winning the series by game 3 he still would have probably threw away half of his army in game 3 for no reason.
Every game was fun, wish we could have gotten a 5th set. Last played fantastically the entire tournament after losing his first match to Calm in the Ro16.
Mini's micro is so damn good, and his focus/composure seems to be have gotten way better in this tournament. I really hope he keeps it going and makes it all the way this year.
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On March 19 2019 07:53 Aminus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2019 13:01 LocoBolon wrote:On March 18 2019 08:56 Aminus wrote:
End of game 2 and i can definitely say, mini is the best protoss player right now, Rain so overrated. Mini showing much much better and complicated games against same opponents Rain got defeated already and in general... And the fact Mini does that by wining a game from a big dissadvantage conquering his own mind just calls for so good story of ones deep improvement not only in game but in character and spirit. Thats the protoss spirit! Rain so overrated? Lol are you out of your mind? He is smarter and emotionally stronger than Mini to say the least, champ material Strategy, decision making and bran wise, Rain is the closest thing to Flash that exist in the Protoss realm. "overrated"... pfff don't make me laugh Yes, Rain is overrated, unless you didnt see effort toy with him 3-0. How is Rain smarter? Emotionally stronger he is, but Mini shows great talent, with much more complicated and well thought games. the main reason mini lost finals was emotions. Only reason Rain won ASL was that Snow defeated flash in bo5 in the semifinal, Snow was the real champ of that ASL.
Mini packs a stronger aggressive punch due to his stellar micro-management that can throw more well rounded players off guard, but Rain has a tendency to rely less on unlikely outplays, and bases his games on decisions built on sound reasoning. Mini plays a more elaborate playstyle, while Rain keeps things less volatile, but what you see on screen are not representative of how deep their thought processes are for the games. Rain has some of the best understanding of the game from a protoss player, and this aspect is something Mini has always respected Rain for. Even during their Discord chat sessions, Mini has once jokingly said to Rain (but with a grain of truth) that protoss race as a whole was doomed because the brightest player (Rain), is not motivated enough to push the race forward.
In what may be a bad analogy, Mini is like the dude who strikes harder but isn't that well organized in how he fights, while Rain plays like Floyd Mayweather Junior (obviously not at that level), he approaches the game methodically and there's great intellectual prowess going on behind what may seem like a commonplace gaming style.
As an example, in game three of the finals, Mini had a picture perfect dragoon micro-management in the initial stages of the game, but invested into shuttles and units instead of powering up in terms of economy and tech, and Flash (who was spectating the finals alongside Rain) couldn't understand why Mini was doing this. He said BeSt would quite easily find a way to win from this already advantageous position without needing to pull off the aggressive play Mini was setting himself up for. Rain then said that Mini has this tendency to produce units with no purpose other than to playmake himself into an advantageous position with those units, often putting himself into unfavourable positions if he can't make full use of his units. It is just how Mini functions. He makes proactive plays with his units, and there's great skill involved in such plays, but there's sometimes zero logic in what Mini does other than he thinks he can outplay the opponent.
I find Mini much more electric as a spectator than Rain, but personal tastes aside, Rain's credentials speak for themselves. He has been putting forth much more consistent and reliable results as a player in comparison to Mini, both online (he is the highest rated protoss player in terms of ELO points from online sponsored matches) and in tournaments over a lengthy period of time (he is the only player in the scene to have at least made the quarter-finals or above for every single ASL or KSL from 2018 onwards). I think you are under-valuing Rain due to his style of play, rather than his lack of competitive results.
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On March 19 2019 11:47 Letmelose wrote:
but Rain has a tendency to rely less on unlikely outplays, and bases his games on decisions built on sound reasoning.
Exemplified in the Ro8 match vs Horang2. When you make sound decisions and aren't particularly flashy, this is what happens... shutting out a top player and making it look like your units began with upgrades.
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honestly i think rains lack of playmaking is what separates him from somebody truly great, i dont think you can play that textbook and straight as protoss and beat the absolute best at the highest venue. Mini i can see being someone truly great.
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On March 19 2019 13:48 Dazed. wrote:
honestly i think rains lack of playmaking is what separates him from somebody truly great, i dont think you can play that textbook and straight as protoss and beat the absolute best at the highest venue. Mini i can see being someone truly great.
I do somewhat agree with this sentiment. Especially in tournament play, games tend to diverge from the usual algorithm into extreme do or die situations, and this is where players who constantly push themselves to their mechanical limits shine. Flash said that Rain is one of the worst protoss players in terms of stopping early cheese rushes from terran players, and has a tendency to pick safe options with this false belief that he can reason himself out of literally any situation.
With that being said, Mini is far from being a complete player himself.
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Rain safe textbook style is his defining player characteristic and it worked out well for him in sc2, I wouldn't blame him for it. And it's not like he can't deviate from it a little, example is the games in this tourney where he did some proxies against last and larva
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Letmelose hit the nail on the head in his analysis of Rain and Mini. Rain’s not the sexiest Protoss like a Bisu but his understanding and consistency really should speak for itself. Just go back to the last 4-5 ASL/KSL’s - and try to find the list of players that put up better cumulative results than him and you’ll be left with a very elite group of players.
In regards to his lack of playmaking - less confident players are way more likely to pull out crazier plays and all in builds than the better ones, because they know in the long game they’ll fall apart. Rain plays conservative, yes, but he plays solid because he knows he can go head to head with just about anybody. He had plenty of cool plays this ASL, including his wildcard match vs. Sharp (proxy robo vs Larva, hidden nexus vs. Horang2, 7:30 4 gate DT vs. Sharp). Watch his stream more often for a larger sample size or listen to what other pros say about him.
All that aside, Mini has been my favorite Protoss for many months now because he plays a really exciting and distinct style. My description of Mini is that he’s easily the most dangerous Protoss in a 3 or 5 game series, but in no way is he as rounded of a player like Rain. I applaud him for besting Effort this season but he intended on going the distance in none of those 5 games.
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My generel impression of PvZ vs PvT is also that for PvT you need understanding of the game and when to do what, more than you need game some crazy skirmish micro.
For PvZ it is the opposite, you need more crazy skirmish micro to mess up Zerg and less of perfekt understanding of the game.
This is also to me why Mini (and ofc Bisu in his prime) would be the scariest to face in PvZ. While Rain look so crazy in PvT. But with a little more volatileness I think Rain would stomp even more in both matchups.
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Are the VODs available anywhere? I missed the live broadcast :/
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 19 2019 11:47 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2019 07:53 Aminus wrote:On March 18 2019 13:01 LocoBolon wrote:On March 18 2019 08:56 Aminus wrote:
End of game 2 and i can definitely say, mini is the best protoss player right now, Rain so overrated. Mini showing much much better and complicated games against same opponents Rain got defeated already and in general... And the fact Mini does that by wining a game from a big dissadvantage conquering his own mind just calls for so good story of ones deep improvement not only in game but in character and spirit. Thats the protoss spirit! Rain so overrated? Lol are you out of your mind? He is smarter and emotionally stronger than Mini to say the least, champ material Strategy, decision making and bran wise, Rain is the closest thing to Flash that exist in the Protoss realm. "overrated"... pfff don't make me laugh Yes, Rain is overrated, unless you didnt see effort toy with him 3-0. How is Rain smarter? Emotionally stronger he is, but Mini shows great talent, with much more complicated and well thought games. the main reason mini lost finals was emotions. Only reason Rain won ASL was that Snow defeated flash in bo5 in the semifinal, Snow was the real champ of that ASL. Mini packs a stronger aggressive punch due to his stellar micro-management that can throw more well rounded players off guard, but Rain has a tendency to rely less on unlikely outplays, and bases his games on decisions built on sound reasoning. Mini plays a more elaborate playstyle, while Rain keeps things less volatile, but what you see on screen are not representative of how deep their thought processes are for the games. Rain has some of the best understanding of the game from a protoss player, and this aspect is something Mini has always respected Rain for. Even during their Discord chat sessions, Mini has once jokingly said to Rain (but with a grain of truth) that protoss race as a whole was doomed because the brightest player (Rain), is not motivated enough to push the race forward. In what may be a bad analogy, Mini is like the dude who strikes harder but isn't that well organized in how he fights, while Rain plays like Floyd Mayweather Junior (obviously not at that level), he approaches the game methodically and there's great intellectual prowess going on behind what may seem like a commonplace gaming style. As an example, in game three of the finals, Mini had a picture perfect dragoon micro-management in the initial stages of the game, but invested into shuttles and units instead of powering up in terms of economy and tech, and Flash (who was spectating the finals alongside Rain) couldn't understand why Mini was doing this. He said BeSt would quite easily find a way to win from this already advantageous position without needing to pull off the aggressive play Mini was setting himself up for. Rain then said that Mini has this tendency to produce units with no purpose other than to playmake himself into an advantageous position with those units, often putting himself into unfavourable positions if he can't make full use of his units. It is just how Mini functions. He makes proactive plays with his units, and there's great skill involved in such plays, but there's sometimes zero logic in what Mini does other than he thinks he can outplay the opponent. I find Mini much more electric as a spectator than Rain, but personal tastes aside, Rain's credentials speak for themselves. He has been putting forth much more consistent and reliable results as a player in comparison to Mini, both online (he is the highest rated protoss player in terms of ELO points from online sponsored matches) and in tournaments over a lengthy period of time (he is the only player in the scene to have at least made the quarter-finals or above for every single ASL or KSL from 2018 onwards). I think you are under-valuing Rain due to his style of play, rather than his lack of competitive results. On March 19 2019 15:05 Jaeyun wrote:
Letmelose hit the nail on the head in his analysis of Rain and Mini. Rain’s not the sexiest Protoss like a Bisu but his understanding and consistency really should speak for itself. Just go back to the last 4-5 ASL/KSL’s - and try to find the list of players that put up better cumulative results than him and you’ll be left with a very elite group of players.
In regards to his lack of playmaking - less confident players are way more likely to pull out crazier plays and all in builds than the better ones, because they know in the long game they’ll fall apart. Rain plays conservative, yes, but he plays solid because he knows he can go head to head with just about anybody. He had plenty of cool plays this ASL, including his wildcard match vs. Sharp (proxy robo vs Larva, hidden nexus vs. Horang2, 7:30 4 gate DT vs. Sharp). Watch his stream more often for a larger sample size or listen to what other pros say about him.
All that aside, Mini has been my favorite Protoss for many months now because he plays a really exciting and distinct style. My description of Mini is that he’s easily the most dangerous Protoss in a 3 or 5 game series, but in no way is he as rounded of a player like Rain. I applaud him for besting Effort this season but he intended on going the distance in none of those 5 games.
Thanks for the analysis guys, I can relate to what you're saying. I truly enjoy how Mini tries to do things his own way, knowing well that he isn't as solid a player as Last is.
On March 19 2019 22:58 fredtheswimmer1 wrote:
Are the VODs available anywhere? I missed the live broadcast :/
http://vod.afreecatv.com/PLAYER/STATION/42458592
For future reference, all the VODs can be found here: https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/402419-small-vod-thread-20
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I really hope that Whiteout will stay for the next season. That's a great map indeed, and pretty balanced too 
Just a great one overall.
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On March 19 2019 11:47 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2019 07:53 Aminus wrote:On March 18 2019 13:01 LocoBolon wrote:On March 18 2019 08:56 Aminus wrote:
End of game 2 and i can definitely say, mini is the best protoss player right now, Rain so overrated. Mini showing much much better and complicated games against same opponents Rain got defeated already and in general... And the fact Mini does that by wining a game from a big dissadvantage conquering his own mind just calls for so good story of ones deep improvement not only in game but in character and spirit. Thats the protoss spirit! Rain so overrated? Lol are you out of your mind? He is smarter and emotionally stronger than Mini to say the least, champ material Strategy, decision making and bran wise, Rain is the closest thing to Flash that exist in the Protoss realm. "overrated"... pfff don't make me laugh Yes, Rain is overrated, unless you didnt see effort toy with him 3-0. How is Rain smarter? Emotionally stronger he is, but Mini shows great talent, with much more complicated and well thought games. the main reason mini lost finals was emotions. Only reason Rain won ASL was that Snow defeated flash in bo5 in the semifinal, Snow was the real champ of that ASL. Mini packs a stronger aggressive punch due to his stellar micro-management that can throw more well rounded players off guard, but Rain has a tendency to rely less on unlikely outplays, and bases his games on decisions built on sound reasoning. Mini plays a more elaborate playstyle, while Rain keeps things less volatile, but what you see on screen are not representative of how deep their thought processes are for the games. Rain has some of the best understanding of the game from a protoss player, and this aspect is something Mini has always respected Rain for. Even during their Discord chat sessions, Mini has once jokingly said to Rain (but with a grain of truth) that protoss race as a whole was doomed because the brightest player (Rain), is not motivated enough to push the race forward. In what may be a bad analogy, Mini is like the dude who strikes harder but isn't that well organized in how he fights, while Rain plays like Floyd Mayweather Junior (obviously not at that level), he approaches the game methodically and there's great intellectual prowess going on behind what may seem like a commonplace gaming style. As an example, in game three of the finals, Mini had a picture perfect dragoon micro-management in the initial stages of the game, but invested into shuttles and units instead of powering up in terms of economy and tech, and Flash (who was spectating the finals alongside Rain) couldn't understand why Mini was doing this. He said BeSt would quite easily find a way to win from this already advantageous position without needing to pull off the aggressive play Mini was setting himself up for. Rain then said that Mini has this tendency to produce units with no purpose other than to playmake himself into an advantageous position with those units, often putting himself into unfavourable positions if he can't make full use of his units. It is just how Mini functions. He makes proactive plays with his units, and there's great skill involved in such plays, but there's sometimes zero logic in what Mini does other than he thinks he can outplay the opponent. I find Mini much more electric as a spectator than Rain, but personal tastes aside, Rain's credentials speak for themselves. He has been putting forth much more consistent and reliable results as a player in comparison to Mini, both online (he is the highest rated protoss player in terms of ELO points from online sponsored matches) and in tournaments over a lengthy period of time (he is the only player in the scene to have at least made the quarter-finals or above for every single ASL or KSL from 2018 onwards). I think you are under-valuing Rain due to his style of play, rather than his lack of competitive results.
"Rain has some of the best understanding of the game from a protoss player" Is exactly what i think he lacks the most.
He showed noticeablelack of understanding, in pvz late game when he faced Soulkey in one of the previous ASLs i think it was a group match since it was bo1, Rain literally didnt know what to do other than walk around with his army not even attacking unitl soulkey lurker contained the whole map, then he suicided 200/200 army and lost the game. He does show lack of understanding in his first game against Leta this ASL, when he didnt read at all that not so hard to read drop build and got completelly thrown off by it. Same in the first game against Last where he scouted the timing and number of factories, had around the same number of gates as factories with the difference that he started his gates after last facts were finished and instead of getting the full potential of his lower number of untis by gathering them all and preventing last from walking over the map with the push, he did the exact opposite of what it shoud be done, he separated all his units on small groups and lost them... Droped 2 shuttles of units on the third, one of with was reavers that couldve weaken the push significantly, and left 12 dragoons to die in front of Lasts natural.
What about first game against Effort, he saw big overlord move out, then he was fully unaware of the drop possibility even tho he wasnt seeing any ovies at effort bases while flying around...
these are just few sound examples of what i can remember at first thought.
Rain game understanding is lacking imo, his power lies in solid textbook play, good macro and strong mentality. And Mini really showing deeper games and better execution with the lack of mental strenght, Mini showed much stronger play against Effort compared to Rain, and got himself in better positions while playing vs Last, followed by his nerves which made him do costly overcommitments, like in that game where he panicked after last pushed and walked such long distance to attack last 3rd with the mindset that he will draw last back to defend which is not even logical since last can be already at Mini's natural...
Imo Mini is a great talent even if not more talented than Rain and he can shine bright after he improve his stabillity. Rain is super solid but seems to lack passion and imagination. If i can make parallel, i would say Rain is the Protoss representation of what Flash and Soulkey are in their own races, but younger weaker version not achieved its full potential.
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EPT
