EPTBSL6 - Ladder Tours, Nation Wars & Map pool ! - Page 6
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Bonyth
Poland535 Posts
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castleeMg
Canada757 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6504 Posts
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EndingLife
United States1585 Posts
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IMJIRAIYA
58 Posts
My $1.50: I like Sugo. I really do. He lives near my college which is close to me. We'll probably meet up in real life down the road. I'm relatively new to the 1v1 scene. Streaming/1v1ing regularly for over a year now and played 3 games with the user in question. But many games (maybe 10) with sugo independent. Sugo is likely BSL6-Mitsua, which is fine. But he likely stream cheats which isn't fine. I have my fair share of enemies/haters that come by the stream. Which I appreciate. I think quarrels/light banter/swinging egos makes things interesting and fun. I'm all for it. One thing I can't condone is jeopardizing the integrity of this game. It shouldn't happen and we need to make players accountable for their suspicious behavior. IE Castle's note which is correct. In all of our previous ZVP match ups, this user did forward gate open (just like sugo). He even conveniently does the mid-way ovie scout on maps like FS/CB. In our 3rd match on FS, I spawned at 7 and he spawned north of me at the 11 o clock position. I decided to 5pool and lo' and behold, for the first time I've ever seen, Sugo decides to in-base 2 gate and scout directly to my 6 lings heading his direction. (to add,he scouted after his 2nd gateway warp which is much later than usual for him... or every protoss in this match up) Even after all that to me, this was not 100% proof that he stream cheats. There is always room for coincidence/luck/variance whatever you want to call it. But when other users like G5, etc share the same sentiment it becomes a resounding truth. I'm not here to put sugo on blast. I think players can change if held accountable. The flip side is: Jaeyun yesterday accused yajmahal as a stream cheater which I don't agree with. (mind you he had 100 viewers) I've played many matches with yaj, and do not share the same opinion. So in this case I think we need to be cautious with how in which we put out these accusations. These forums could be a way to "highlight" suspicious behavior and allow for the users to plead their case and make amends. It is also a bad look for NA players as I hold my European friends to a higher standard/esteem. Message to defenders: be embarrassed. you can have your blind loyalties but one common factor that we all have is love for this game, and the love of streamers to share their interaction via POV. I personally find it hard to accept a world where I should have to put a delay on my stream. I understand it's the risk I take which is fine, but as a community we should condone integrity and shun actions like this from taking place. | ||
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SuGo
United States681 Posts
1. I am BSL6-Msitua 2. In G5's game, I sent a probe to the base for a ninja exp, it's something I commonly do. Next, I did see a scouting probe on the map, my goon passed it at one point. To TT1's point, yes robo after 4 goons is normal, agreed, but I've played G5 several times and I don't think he's ever DT'd me; so that's just some level of calculated risk I took. Sometimes it's not about the 'logical' build but "playing the player." Lastly, if a P is contained on Edy, there's only few options to break - reaver up ramp, harass, or unload on the side and flank ... I didn't feel any type of break from the ramp so I figured the timing for a shuttle is coming. Coincidence? Probably. As for the bit about "attacking with the units" in the start, that was not intentional. That was simply sloppy in my part; I think there's a lot of overthought there. Sloppy is sloppy and should G5 have been out there, I probably would've lost that battle... 3. For Jiraiya's case. One, Castle says "countered with 1g" ... no, that's wrong. If I recall the game, jiraiya went 12h. 1g isn't a counter to 12h... actually 12h > 1g (plus, I 1g often anyways). And lastly, this game about the "5pool vs 2g" ... Jiraiya said he's never seen me 2gate. However, in fact, I did 2gate against him in the NA BATTLE match in game 3. So no, I don't always and only 1g, it's very common, sure, but not always. That's just poor luck he went 5p that game; and I recall it worked well in the NA BATTLE so I figured I will try it again, nothing more, nothing less (for the record, I do 2g in pvz ladder quite a bit because you can get fast wins vs greedy players). As jiraiya said, we've played 10+ times, and now this is some big question? Come on now. And not to put Jiraiya on blast, but how many has he won against me, probably 2 or 3? Now when I win a 5p vs 2g game, there's some big question? For the record, as jiraiya said about me, i do like him too and consider him a friend. Anyhow, feel free to keep speculating. I didn't "cheat" or whatever folks think here. But I won't respond to argue here because it's not a place I care to debate. I thought I made a good ladder run (with my fair share of luck, which we all have) and I will participate in the ro24, that's all. And lastly, if you're paranoid about this, the grim reality is, don't stream or simply put a delay. It's not ideal, but from my perspective it seems like paranoia. I'm simply stating that once you lose a game and you go to analyze it, you're going to see what you want to see (Jiraiya's example about Jaeyun accusing Yaj -- we all have our beef with him, but I would never say he's cheating, especially with 100 viewers watching who will immediately agree with the host). Lots of things can look suspicious if you made up your mind beforehand. | ||
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Q~Bert
United States658 Posts
On January 24 2019 02:51 ProtossGG wrote: I will post here once because I think there needs to be some clarity, but I'm not going to argue, folks can believe as they want. 1. I am BSL6-Msitua 2. In G5's game, I sent a probe to the base for a ninja exp, it's something I commonly do. Next, I did see a scouting probe on the map, my goon passed it at one point. To TT1's point, yes robo after 4 goons is normal, agreed, but I've played G5 several times and I don't think he's ever DT'd me; so that's just some level of calculated risk I took. Sometimes it's not about the 'logical' build but "playing the player." Lastly, if a P is contained on Edy, there's only few options to break - reaver up ramp, harass, or unload on the side and flank ... I didn't feel any type of break from the ramp so I figured the timing for a shuttle is coming. Coincidence? Probably. As for the bit about "attacking with the units" in the start, that was not intentional. That was simply sloppy in my part; I think there's a lot of overthought there. Sloppy is sloppy and should G5 have been out there, I probably would've lost that battle... 3. For Jiraiya's case. One, Castle says "countered with 1g" ... no, that's wrong. If I recall the game, jiraiya went 12h. 1g isn't a counter to 12h... actually 12h > 1g (plus, I 1g often anyways). And lastly, this game about the "5pool vs 2g" ... Jiraiya said he's never seen me 2gate. However, in fact, I did 2gate against him in the NA BATTLE match in game 3. So no, I don't always and only 1g, it's very common, sure, but not always. That's just poor luck he went 5p that game; and I recall it worked well in the NA BATTLE so I figured I will try it again, nothing more, nothing less (for the record, I do 2g in pvz ladder quite a bit because you can get fast wins vs greedy players). As jiraiya said, we've played 10+ times, and now this is some big question? Come on now. And not to put Jiraiya on blast, but how many has he won against me, probably 1 or 2? Now when I win a 5p vs 2g game, there's some big question? Anyhow, feel free to keep speculating. I didn't "cheat" or whatever folks think here. But I won't respond again here because it's not a place I care to debate. I thought I made a good ladder run (with my fair share of luck) and I will participate in the ro24, that's all. And lastly, if you're paranoid about this, the grim reality is, don't stream or simply put a delay. It's not ideal, but from my perspective it seems like paranoia. I'm simply stating that once you lose a game and you go to analyze it, you're going to see what you want to see (Jiraiya's example about Jaeyun accusing Yaj -- we all have our beef with him, but I would never say he's cheating, especially with 100 viewers watching who will immediately agree with the host). Lots of things can look suspicious if you made up your mind beforehand. This is exactly what I said on discord. You can find many suspicious acts if you already assume the opponent is cheating. And after watching the VOD since a little birdie told me JY was calling me out, it was apparent from the very beginning of the game that he expected I was sniping him. He even said on stream "I am going to 9 pool" as to throw me off I guess? But I 12 hatched anyway. Simply put, Jaeyun got outplayed the last two matches on stream and he has to justify me bending him over somehow. But a higher standard should be expected from someone of his stature in the community. Especially when he is the ONLY one to say them. Shame on you JY. Also, show match. Don't dodge. | ||
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IMJIRAIYA
58 Posts
To be even more clear. My sentiment was expressed solely on the 3 games I played with you on the BSL6-Mitsua ID. In a vacuum, my instincts told me something was off about the games we played. It was until after the games I learned it was you so this predisposed thought -- or assumption/paranoia in the case with me, is incorrect. I based my judgement on solely the games vs that ID. That said, your response is fair and really what I was looking for. To own it was you, and to provide your perspective. I think with less "noise" from players like G5, myself, whomever. Will help paint you (& your smurf IDS) in a different light. I've played only 3 games off-stream vs you for the Nation wars in which I went 1-2. I don't own any smurfs and I stream 99% of the games I play in totality. Happy to run it back. Please... ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/w7AFpb4.jpg) | ||
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SuGo
United States681 Posts
On January 24 2019 04:23 IMJIRAIYA wrote: @sugo. Listen, I don't know your history nor DID I have a biased feel that you (on the ID: Sugo) are a stream cheater. To me, everyone is clean until proven guilty. To be even more clear. My sentiment was expressed solely on the 3 games I played with you on the BSL6-Mitsua ID. In a vacuum, my instincts told me something was off about the games we played. It was until after the games I learned it was you so this predisposed thought -- or assumption/paranoia in the case with me, is incorrect. I based my judgement on solely the games vs that ID. That said, your response is fair and really what I was looking for. To own it was you, and to provide your perspective. I think with less "noise" from players like G5, myself, whomever. Will help paint you (& your smurf IDS) in a different light. I've played only 3 games off-stream vs you for the Nation wars in which I went 1-2. I don't own any smurfs and I stream 99% of the games I play in totality. Happy to run it back. Thx Jiraiya. Also, one of the 3 games vs my Mitsua ID you did 5p and I recall you won that one ... so clearly not impervious to it | ||
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G5
United States2863 Posts
On January 24 2019 02:51 ProtossGG wrote: I will post here once because I think there needs to be some clarity, but I'm not going to argue, folks can believe as they want. 1. I am BSL6-Msitua 2. In G5's game, I sent a probe to the base for a ninja exp, it's something I commonly do. Next, I did see a scouting probe on the map, my goon passed it at one point. To TT1's point, yes robo after 4 goons is normal, agreed, but I've played G5 several times and I don't think he's ever DT'd me; so that's just some level of calculated risk I took. Sometimes it's not about the 'logical' build but "playing the player." Lastly, if a P is contained on Edy, there's only few options to break - reaver up ramp, harass, or unload on the side and flank ... I didn't feel any type of break from the ramp so I figured the timing for a shuttle is coming. Coincidence? Probably. As for the bit about "attacking with the units" in the start, that was not intentional. That was simply sloppy in my part; I think there's a lot of overthought there. Sloppy is sloppy and should G5 have been out there, I probably would've lost that battle... 3. For Jiraiya's case. One, Castle says "countered with 1g" ... no, that's wrong. If I recall the game, jiraiya went 12h. 1g isn't a counter to 12h... actually 12h > 1g (plus, I 1g often anyways). And lastly, this game about the "5pool vs 2g" ... Jiraiya said he's never seen me 2gate. However, in fact, I did 2gate against him in the NA BATTLE match in game 3. So no, I don't always and only 1g, it's very common, sure, but not always. That's just poor luck he went 5p that game; and I recall it worked well in the NA BATTLE so I figured I will try it again, nothing more, nothing less (for the record, I do 2g in pvz ladder quite a bit because you can get fast wins vs greedy players). As jiraiya said, we've played 10+ times, and now this is some big question? Come on now. And not to put Jiraiya on blast, but how many has he won against me, probably 2 or 3? Now when I win a 5p vs 2g game, there's some big question? For the record, as jiraiya said about me, i do like him too and consider him a friend. Anyhow, feel free to keep speculating. I didn't "cheat" or whatever folks think here. But I won't respond to argue here because it's not a place I care to debate. I thought I made a good ladder run (with my fair share of luck, which we all have) and I will participate in the ro24, that's all. And lastly, if you're paranoid about this, the grim reality is, don't stream or simply put a delay. It's not ideal, but from my perspective it seems like paranoia. I'm simply stating that once you lose a game and you go to analyze it, you're going to see what you want to see (Jiraiya's example about Jaeyun accusing Yaj -- we all have our beef with him, but I would never say he's cheating, especially with 100 viewers watching who will immediately agree with the host). Lots of things can look suspicious if you made up your mind beforehand. I want to be as fair as possible here as I know most people take their credibility very seriously. Before I posted this, I sat down and watched the replay in real time / slow mo from your perspective. I carefully watched your reactions, the way you moved your units, and diagnosed your play; rewinding and replaying critical moments. I not only watched the game in question but our previous game as well. With that said, I don't believe you. In my opinion, you were cheating. The way you played (strategy, timing, reactions, army movement, etc.) doesn't make sense and your explanation doesn't make sense. The only way this makes sense to me is through the lens of you cheating. In a sport where there isn't blood tests or cameras directly on players and certainty isn't 100%, it's as clear as it possibly can be to me that you were cheating. You're definitely a good enough player to beat me and many top foreigners and pros without cheating. You would not be the first and won't be the last that still takes the easier road even when they don't have to. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. There's always that chance. However, after watching those replays, reading your explanation, and knowing this game the way I do, I can confidently say I'm not wrong though. Personally, I have no hard feelings, none at all. I understand why you did it and it was wrong. We can all agree that it's a shitty thing to do. People make mistakes and hopefully they build character from there and end up a better person. I don't care too much if you or someone else cheats vs me. Not the first time someone cheated in one way or another against me and won't be the last. Life moves on. It's unfair and annoying but my anger will subside relatively quickly. I remember though what it's like to deeply care for this game and my results. Back in the day I would have been FAR more furious then I was here and I honestly believe that there are players in this tournament that work as hard or harder than I did back in my hay day and care deeply for the chances they get in these tournaments. I post this not out of spite for you but for fairness to them. | ||
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SuGo
United States681 Posts
On January 24 2019 11:24 G5 wrote: I want to be as fair as possible here as I know most people take their credibility very seriously. Before I posted this, I sat down and watched the replay in real time / slow mo from your perspective. I carefully watched your reactions, the way you moved your units, and diagnosed your play; rewinding and replaying critical moments. I not only watched the game in question but our previous game as well. With that said, I don't believe you. In my opinion, you were cheating. The way you played (strategy, timing, reactions, army movement, etc.) doesn't make sense and your explanation doesn't make sense. The only way this makes sense to me is through the lens of you cheating. In a sport where there isn't blood tests or cameras directly on players and certainty isn't 100%, it's as clear as it possibly can be to me that you were cheating. You're definitely a good enough player to beat me and many top foreigners and pros without cheating. You would not be the first and won't be the last that still takes the easier road even when they don't have to. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. There's always that chance. However, after watching those replays, reading your explanation, and knowing this game the way I do, I can confidently say I'm not wrong though. Personally, I have no hard feelings, none at all. I understand why you did it and it was wrong. We can all agree that it's a shitty thing to do. People make mistakes and hopefully they build character from there and end up a better person. I don't care too much if you or someone else cheats vs me. Not the first time someone cheated in one way or another against me and won't be the last. Life moves on. It's unfair and annoying but my anger will subside relatively quickly. I remember though what it's like to deeply care for this game and my results. Back in the day I would have been FAR more furious then I was here and I honestly believe that there are players in this tournament that work as hard or harder than I did back in my hay day and care deeply for the chances they get in these tournaments. I post this not out of spite for you but for fairness to them. Nothing against you G5, respect your oldschool heritage, etc. As I said, not here to argue. Anyways, appreciate your compliment nonetheless and simply put, we'll meet again. | ||
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G5
United States2863 Posts
On January 24 2019 11:41 ProtossGG wrote: Nothing against you G5, respect your oldschool heritage, etc. As I said, not here to argue. Anyways, appreciate your compliment nonetheless and simply put, we'll meet again. Fair enough. Good luck. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
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Sero
United States692 Posts
On January 23 2019 15:44 Shinokuki wrote: it ain't sugo. we are suspecting that it may be reaper[pain] or someone unknown who trained for years for this spotlight. sugo said he has to take a break from bw because of his corporate work. So first it flat out isn't Sugo because "we" suspect it's reaper[pain] or someone unknown, and Sugo is taking a forced break from BW due to his corporate work. On January 23 2019 17:07 Shinokuki wrote: cmon man. You can't hack in remastered and there is also an insane stream delay that it doesn't even matter at that point. You lost fair and square to much superior player. Of course he will think you were gonna harrass when he contained you. That person might've had better game sense fair and square. Then, because there's insane stream delay of several seconds, stream cheating doesn't even matter. It's not possible, and G5 just lost to a much superior player fair and square, whoever that may be. Probably some unknown gosu who's been training in secret for years. On January 24 2019 15:04 Shinokuki wrote: All i know is that sugo never cheats. He has so much pride for his skills that there is no point in cheating for him. Do you think cheating would make him feel good about his skills? I play sugo all the time. He does wild stuff and just blind build orders sometimes. He also makes ninja expo aka "sugo expo" that we make fun of. I guess I understand why some feel like he cheated. He's just that type of player. Now that everyone found out it IS Sugo, you just know that Sugo would never cheat. Because this guy who apparently lied to you about taking a break from BW is full of integrity. So you play him all the time even though he's been working 100 hours a week since the beginning of last year (and did I mention he's busy on weekends too?), but this supposed break from BW due to excessive corporate work is a recent thing, right? Weird, what happened? Did he start working 200 hours a week? It's also interesting how you deny it's Sugo completely, but go on to defend and praise this random unknown whom you have no association with or reason to support without even watching the game. And here's that "we" again. We make fun of his "sugo expos," and he also happens to do random shit all the time, so any unusual plays should be immediately dismissed. Let's also just ignore the evidence from the game that can't be explained away by a preference for odd builds or ninja expos, like his divinely inspired unit movements and obviously feigned scouting. The "we" in your first post and the "we" in your last post imply you're speaking about the same group of people - your group of friends which includes Sugo who play together regularly. Are you sure you didn't know he was Msitua from the start? Really? Because it wasn't that hard for me to figure out, and you're friends with him and play together all the time. Amazing how he was able to fool your entire group into thinking he quit right when he got a new smurf account for BSL. I'm sure you really thought he had stopped playing. Either you're the most gullible person in the world, or your attempt to defend him by lying from the start is pathetically transparent. | ||
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SuGo
United States681 Posts
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Sero
United States692 Posts
On January 24 2019 21:05 ProtossGG wrote: Sero, clearly I’ve made civil endings with myself and both other parties involved here. There’s really no need to write 10 paragraph long posts. You seem to care more than the “impacted parties.” I guess if you and the rest of the notorious FBW squad care that much, then keep on going. Otherwise, I’m pretty sure this just a moot point now. Oh, well if you don't care, then I guess it's fine and we can just move on. Good luck in the tournament! | ||
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Sero
United States692 Posts
Here's a refresher: + Show Spoiler + On January 24 2019 11:24 G5 wrote: I want to be as fair as possible here as I know most people take their credibility very seriously. Before I posted this, I sat down and watched the replay in real time / slow mo from your perspective. I carefully watched your reactions, the way you moved your units, and diagnosed your play; rewinding and replaying critical moments. I not only watched the game in question but our previous game as well. With that said, I don't believe you. In my opinion, you were cheating. The way you played (strategy, timing, reactions, army movement, etc.) doesn't make sense and your explanation doesn't make sense. The only way this makes sense to me is through the lens of you cheating. In a sport where there isn't blood tests or cameras directly on players and certainty isn't 100%, it's as clear as it possibly can be to me that you were cheating. You're definitely a good enough player to beat me and many top foreigners and pros without cheating. You would not be the first and won't be the last that still takes the easier road even when they don't have to. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. There's always that chance. However, after watching those replays, reading your explanation, and knowing this game the way I do, I can confidently say I'm not wrong though. Personally, I have no hard feelings, none at all. I understand why you did it and it was wrong. We can all agree that it's a shitty thing to do. People make mistakes and hopefully they build character from there and end up a better person. I don't care too much if you or someone else cheats vs me. Not the first time someone cheated in one way or another against me and won't be the last. Life moves on. It's unfair and annoying but my anger will subside relatively quickly. I remember though what it's like to deeply care for this game and my results. Back in the day I would have been FAR more furious then I was here and I honestly believe that there are players in this tournament that work as hard or harder than I did back in my hay day and care deeply for the chances they get in these tournaments. I post this not out of spite for you but for fairness to them. "Fair enough" means he doesn't want to waste his time arguing with you. He's already convinced. Well, I've got some time. Either you're delusional and think he's actually okay with it, or you're just blatantly trying to brush this off and hope it goes by unnoticed. Even if he were your best bud now and decided to completely forgive you, that shouldn't mean a thing. You cheated to qualify for the largest foreign tournament, which is run on TeamLiquid and sponsored by Blizzard with a $1,000 prize pool. Only the top 20 foreigners on ladder get to qualify for this. BSL may not be organized by TL, but this was the decision made regarding cheaters during similar tournament qualifiers in the past, which I believe should still be upheld: https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/news-archive/108352-tsl-tl-punishes-cheaters On December 22 2009 00:27 TL.net Bot wrote: Ladder abuse is just as criminal as hacking. The end result is no different. An abuser is essentially stealing prize money from honest players and robbing the community of a worthwhile competition. TeamLiquid strongly values honest competition and fair play, and we have decided to use our TSL to send a message to the community that these sorts of actions are no longer acceptable. We urge other web sites, teams, clans, and tournaments to take similar action. The only way this widespread problem can be solved is if we all work together. We applaud GosuGamers for banning all TSL abusers from their events for six months. But it is not enough for just two sites to take a stand against cheating. There should be zero tolerance for cheating from anyone in our community. A tournament organizer or site administrator who does not take similar action against these players is supporting cheating in their tournament. A clan or national team that does not remove these players from their lineup is sending a message that their clan or country finds it acceptable to have cheaters on their team. This passive tolerance of cheating is not acceptable, and TeamLiquid will not advertise clans, teams, or events that continue to disrespect this game. Future Penalty Rules These rules will come into effect after the PokerStrategy.com TSL is over. Our future penalties rules will be stricter, because players now have notice about them. First time offenders without personal gain will be banned for a minimum of 12 months and the next two TSLs. On December 22 2009 00:23 TL.net Bot wrote: "But they didn't need the abuse / hack to qualify..." Results do not matter. Cheating is wrong regardless of who cheats. It negatively impacts the tournament, the fans, and most of all the other honest competitors. Before you go ahead and claim that this is an FBW witch hunt, know that I'm posting this on my own, and I don't go around calling people stream cheaters often. There's only one other person I've suspected in the past 7 years that I've been playing this game, and he's never gotten a formal call out like this due to lack of evidence, which isn't the case here. While I watched the game with a critical eye, I wasn't expecting to find any substance to G5's original one-liner comment. I rolled my eyes a bit when I read "he plays like a hacker / stream cheater" since I don't believe that hacks are even in the game since Remastered's release. I also didn't know that you were the one playing until I realized it was you about an hour after my first post where I agreed that it was extremely suspicious. We may not be pals, but that's not causing me to be biased here. On January 24 2019 02:51 ProtossGG wrote: But I won't respond to argue here because it's not a place I care to debate. [...] I will participate in the ro24, that's all. On January 24 2019 21:05 ProtossGG wrote: Clearly I’ve made civil endings with myself and both other parties involved here. [...] I’m pretty sure this just a moot point now. The way you assume it's no big deal and everything is fine now is ridiculous. The games alone should be enough, but the fact that you bought a new account to try to hide that it was you and then told your friend to lie for you on here is shameless. Yes, you can dispute that too, but the account can be proven, and your good friend Shinokuki isn't exactly convincing. All that along with your history of frequently being spotted in the viewer lists of streamers who you're actively in game against (by your own words and others) is what I consider damning evidence. I hope the BSL organizers will seriously investigate, because I think it's as blatant as it can get. While there's no 100% verifiable method to prove that you did cheat, a reasonable person doesn't need irrefutable proof to see that you did. | ||
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TrueIrish
6 Posts
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Sero
United States692 Posts
On January 25 2019 01:25 TrueIrish wrote: Stop whining and add a longer stream delay. Problem solved. Not like it was hard to figure out who it was. #FreeSuGo How much whining must be going on in the NaS discord for you to decide to come contribute with your third post here Irish? By the way, I specifically said it wasn't hard to figure out, and I wasn't even the one streaming. Who would have thought the No Autism Squad was a scummy clan? At least make an effort to defend him. Junsu did a much better job. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1585 Posts
On January 25 2019 01:25 TrueIrish wrote: Stop whining and add a longer stream delay. Problem solved. Not like it was hard to figure out who it was. #FreeSuGo Who cares about the cheating accusations, just stop whining! The Jordaddy logic is strong with this one.. | ||
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