In the 1st game with the hydra bust after the early ling pressure, how is a protoss expected to defend successfully to where he is at least even or ahead of the zerg who is doing an all in type of strategy if he has speedling map control to where your probes cant even scout?
If you make cannons blind, zerg can just switch to economy, or if zerg didn't even go for hydra bust, you're even further behind for investing in cannons early to avoid an autoloss if you didn't have defense for a hydra bust.
One thing I have noticed that could've put Rain in a better situation was to probe block his choke if he was heading out with his zealots. If the early speedlings didn't go in to snipe the cannons he would've been able to defend the hydras more efficiently than at the last moment. But then again the speedlings I feel were such large in numbers that they could've just killed those 4 zealots easily without gaining much intel, and trading inefficiently with speedlings = toss even further behind.
I feel zerg has too many options and not enough things to punish them, while toss if they make one critical mistake, they lose the game.
On August 31 2018 16:47 Moopower wrote: In the 1st game with the hydra bust after the early ling pressure, how is a protoss expected to defend successfully to where he is at least even or ahead of the zerg who is doing an all in type of strategy if he has speedling map control to where your probes cant even scout?
If you make cannons blind, zerg can just switch to economy, or if zerg didn't even go for hydra bust, you're even further behind for investing in cannons early to avoid an autoloss if you didn't have defense for a hydra bust.
One thing I have noticed that could've put Rain in a better situation was to probe block his choke if he was heading out with his zealots. If the early speedlings didn't go in to snipe the cannons he would've been able to defend the hydras more efficiently than at the last moment. But then again the speedlings I feel were such large in numbers that they could've just killed those 4 zealots easily without gaining much intel, and trading inefficiently with speedlings = toss even further behind.
I feel zerg has too many options and not enough things to punish them, while toss if they make one critical mistake, they lose the game.
This has been discussed at great length innumerable times before, but keeping your initial scouting probe alive for as long as possible is really important, and sometimes so is sending out a second probe early on the map. But yeah, PvZ can be unforgivingly brutal, as after denying scouting, Zerg has a ton of options for early all-ins, like 3 hatch hydra, 4 hatch hydra, 2 hatch hydra, mass speedlings, fast mutas, etc while P can only FE or maybe do some quirky 1 gate stargate build, with the only really viable cheese being double proxy gate, hence the slight Z > P > T > Z balance tilt.
On a side note, I'm curious as to when was the last time a cannon rush was executed in a broadcasted PvZ. Maybe someone with more game knowledge/memory can find that?
On August 31 2018 16:47 Moopower wrote: In the 1st game with the hydra bust after the early ling pressure, how is a protoss expected to defend successfully to where he is at least even or ahead of the zerg who is doing an all in type of strategy if he has speedling map control to where your probes cant even scout?
If you make cannons blind, zerg can just switch to economy, or if zerg didn't even go for hydra bust, you're even further behind for investing in cannons early to avoid an autoloss if you didn't have defense for a hydra bust.
One thing I have noticed that could've put Rain in a better situation was to probe block his choke if he was heading out with his zealots. If the early speedlings didn't go in to snipe the cannons he would've been able to defend the hydras more efficiently than at the last moment. But then again the speedlings I feel were such large in numbers that they could've just killed those 4 zealots easily without gaining much intel, and trading inefficiently with speedlings = toss even further behind.
I feel zerg has too many options and not enough things to punish them, while toss if they make one critical mistake, they lose the game.
You need Bisu level scouting to win consistently. PvZ on the highest level is very hard, just like ZvT: the win conditions in both match ups are slim and at the same time it is easy to fuck up.
On August 31 2018 16:47 Moopower wrote: I feel zerg has too many options and not enough things to punish them, while toss if they make one critical mistake, they lose the game.
Welcome to the "hard" match up. ZvT you can die super easily to terran - one mistake and you lose your third and the game (e.g. jaedong bringing one extra lurker to his third ended up losing him the game vs Light). TvP is also extremely hard at lower levels.
These match ups were probably more balanced when people had more time to practice. Protoss has been doing alright at PvZ though. Zerg weren't taking enough advantage of early aggression.
When Zerg does early aggression people see it as cheesey and unfair. When Protoss do early aggression and abuse the absolute fuck out of PvT they're seen as tactical geniuses because everyone here plays Toss.
On August 31 2018 16:47 Moopower wrote: I feel zerg has too many options and not enough things to punish them, while toss if they make one critical mistake, they lose the game.
Welcome to the "hard" match up. ZvT you can die super easily to terran - one mistake and you lose your third and the game (e.g. jaedong bringing one extra lurker to his third ended up losing him the game vs Light). TvP is also extremely hard at lower levels.
These match ups were probably more balanced when people had more time to practice. Protoss has been doing alright at PvZ though. Zerg weren't taking enough advantage of early aggression.
When Zerg does early aggression people see it as cheesey and unfair. When Protoss do early aggression and abuse the absolute fuck out of PvT they're seen as tactical geniuses because everyone here plays Toss.
On August 31 2018 00:58 MymSlorm wrote: I'm impressed, Jaedong played perfectly. Even though in the 4th game, I felt like Rain was kind of throwing the game. He wasted over and over most of his army against well-defended positions instead of trying to get another base with gas and securing a better economy which I think is the way to go. If you are protoss you better play defensive and safe in late-game situations aiming to be equal on bases because your units are more cost-efficient than zerg units. If Rain wasn't so careless I think he might have won the game.
Anyways I'm glad JD got to the final displaying such amazing skill. I hope Last wins now so we can have a ZvT finals instead of ZvZ
He did the same vs Larva in ASL. People will tell you that you have to break the zerg because even with Z having less bases, Z>P in late game. I disagree, but whaddo I know! edit: This one actually wasnt as bad as vs ASL, because as someone pointed out, he has a reason to believe he might have enough to break or deal sufficient damage to JD at that point in the game when he attacked his bottom base.
On August 31 2018 00:58 MymSlorm wrote: I'm impressed, Jaedong played perfectly. Even though in the 4th game, I felt like Rain was kind of throwing the game. He wasted over and over most of his army against well-defended positions instead of trying to get another base with gas and securing a better economy which I think is the way to go. If you are protoss you better play defensive and safe in late-game situations aiming to be equal on bases because your units are more cost-efficient than zerg units. If Rain wasn't so careless I think he might have won the game.
Anyways I'm glad JD got to the final displaying such amazing skill. I hope Last wins now so we can have a ZvT finals instead of ZvZ
He did the same vs Larva in ASL. People will tell you that you have to break the zerg because even with Z having less bases, Z>P in late game. I disagree, but whaddo I know!
Well, Z>P early, mid and late game. And i do know. : )
On August 31 2018 00:58 MymSlorm wrote: I'm impressed, Jaedong played perfectly. Even though in the 4th game, I felt like Rain was kind of throwing the game. He wasted over and over most of his army against well-defended positions instead of trying to get another base with gas and securing a better economy which I think is the way to go. If you are protoss you better play defensive and safe in late-game situations aiming to be equal on bases because your units are more cost-efficient than zerg units. If Rain wasn't so careless I think he might have won the game.
Anyways I'm glad JD got to the final displaying such amazing skill. I hope Last wins now so we can have a ZvT finals instead of ZvZ
He did the same vs Larva in ASL. People will tell you that you have to break the zerg because even with Z having less bases, Z>P in late game. I disagree, but whaddo I know!
Well, Z>P early, mid and late game. And i do know. : )
Z>T late game as well these days thanks to ultras.
On August 31 2018 00:58 MymSlorm wrote: I'm impressed, Jaedong played perfectly. Even though in the 4th game, I felt like Rain was kind of throwing the game. He wasted over and over most of his army against well-defended positions instead of trying to get another base with gas and securing a better economy which I think is the way to go. If you are protoss you better play defensive and safe in late-game situations aiming to be equal on bases because your units are more cost-efficient than zerg units. If Rain wasn't so careless I think he might have won the game.
Anyways I'm glad JD got to the final displaying such amazing skill. I hope Last wins now so we can have a ZvT finals instead of ZvZ
He did the same vs Larva in ASL. People will tell you that you have to break the zerg because even with Z having less bases, Z>P in late game. I disagree, but whaddo I know!
I think the constant saying of Z maxed army is the strongest is a bunch of horse shit. It's only true if zerg has the oppotunity to flank from all sites. Maxed Mech and late game toss are both stronger in a straight up fight.
On August 31 2018 00:58 MymSlorm wrote: I'm impressed, Jaedong played perfectly. Even though in the 4th game, I felt like Rain was kind of throwing the game. He wasted over and over most of his army against well-defended positions instead of trying to get another base with gas and securing a better economy which I think is the way to go. If you are protoss you better play defensive and safe in late-game situations aiming to be equal on bases because your units are more cost-efficient than zerg units. If Rain wasn't so careless I think he might have won the game.
Anyways I'm glad JD got to the final displaying such amazing skill. I hope Last wins now so we can have a ZvT finals instead of ZvZ
He did the same vs Larva in ASL. People will tell you that you have to break the zerg because even with Z having less bases, Z>P in late game. I disagree, but whaddo I know!
Well, Z>P early, mid and late game. And i do know. : )
Ha! You are preaching to the choir here! Everything considered, Z>>>>P! But Z having less bases? With P allowed to have all the tech he wants basically untouched? P with complete map control? Both maxed army but P up two bases with likely a massive massive bank of resources.. Thats what Rain could have had vs Larva but apparently he CANT let that happen because he will just lose. I think Z imba too bro, but it cant be that bad!
On August 31 2018 18:45 Miragee wrote: Just watched the games. Never would have guessed that. JD played like he is on fire right now. I got chills. So glad for him!
On August 31 2018 00:58 MymSlorm wrote: I'm impressed, Jaedong played perfectly. Even though in the 4th game, I felt like Rain was kind of throwing the game. He wasted over and over most of his army against well-defended positions instead of trying to get another base with gas and securing a better economy which I think is the way to go. If you are protoss you better play defensive and safe in late-game situations aiming to be equal on bases because your units are more cost-efficient than zerg units. If Rain wasn't so careless I think he might have won the game.
Anyways I'm glad JD got to the final displaying such amazing skill. I hope Last wins now so we can have a ZvT finals instead of ZvZ
He did the same vs Larva in ASL. People will tell you that you have to break the zerg because even with Z having less bases, Z>P in late game. I disagree, but whaddo I know!
I think the constant saying of Z maxed army is the strongest is a bunch of horse shit. It's only true if zerg has the oppotunity to flank from all sites. Maxed Mech and late game toss are both stronger in a straight up fight.
On August 31 2018 18:45 Miragee wrote: Just watched the games. Never would have guessed that. JD played like he is on fire right now. I got chills. So glad for him!
On August 31 2018 18:28 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:
On August 31 2018 00:58 MymSlorm wrote: I'm impressed, Jaedong played perfectly. Even though in the 4th game, I felt like Rain was kind of throwing the game. He wasted over and over most of his army against well-defended positions instead of trying to get another base with gas and securing a better economy which I think is the way to go. If you are protoss you better play defensive and safe in late-game situations aiming to be equal on bases because your units are more cost-efficient than zerg units. If Rain wasn't so careless I think he might have won the game.
Anyways I'm glad JD got to the final displaying such amazing skill. I hope Last wins now so we can have a ZvT finals instead of ZvZ
He did the same vs Larva in ASL. People will tell you that you have to break the zerg because even with Z having less bases, Z>P in late game. I disagree, but whaddo I know!
I think the constant saying of Z maxed army is the strongest is a bunch of horse shit. It's only true if zerg has the oppotunity to flank from all sites. Maxed Mech and late game toss are both stronger in a straight up fight.
Z can replace an army way quicker though
True and that's the chance zerg has in late game: Dwindle the other race down. But it's telling that on late game bunker maps, such as Blue Storm for example, protoss excels vs zerg in late game (yes, it's the other way around in early game but that's beside the point).
On August 31 2018 18:45 Miragee wrote: Just watched the games. Never would have guessed that. JD played like he is on fire right now. I got chills. So glad for him!
On August 31 2018 18:28 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:
On August 31 2018 00:58 MymSlorm wrote: I'm impressed, Jaedong played perfectly. Even though in the 4th game, I felt like Rain was kind of throwing the game. He wasted over and over most of his army against well-defended positions instead of trying to get another base with gas and securing a better economy which I think is the way to go. If you are protoss you better play defensive and safe in late-game situations aiming to be equal on bases because your units are more cost-efficient than zerg units. If Rain wasn't so careless I think he might have won the game.
Anyways I'm glad JD got to the final displaying such amazing skill. I hope Last wins now so we can have a ZvT finals instead of ZvZ
He did the same vs Larva in ASL. People will tell you that you have to break the zerg because even with Z having less bases, Z>P in late game. I disagree, but whaddo I know!
I think the constant saying of Z maxed army is the strongest is a bunch of horse shit. It's only true if zerg has the oppotunity to flank from all sites. Maxed Mech and late game toss are both stronger in a straight up fight.
Z can replace an army way quicker though
Yes but Z typically trades inefficiently in most cases. If it does trade efficiently, then yeah Z wins. I actually think it is easier to trade efficiently vs mech if you play it right because of dark swarm and overlord drops, which decimate tanks which are so valuable. But vs P, you are up against storms and reaver shots. You gotta get up in there with drops, but corsairs are std in that matchup; in ZvT, wraiths/valks arent, and gols weaken T army the more you have of them.
On August 31 2018 17:09 reincremate wrote: On a side note, I'm curious as to when was the last time a cannon rush was executed in a broadcasted PvZ. Maybe someone with more game knowledge/memory can find that?
I think it was free vs EffOrt on Circuit Breaker, in SSL Classic final. EffOrt easily drone drilled vs it tho.
Wow, just watched the games. I was happy about JD returning to his former self, I was a bit anxious about the games, since Rain is definitely the best protoss around.
Then I saw the total length of the video being below 2 hours and was "man, did Rain beat him 4:0?"
Then I saw game one, my jaw dropped and thought there were some quick games traded between the two afterwards.
Game two was quick enough, I said.
Then we got to game three.
And then the rainbow sheep came.
Man, I hate zerg with a rare passion, but JD is a very, very notable exception. I admire a good zerg, but I don't watch the games, good zergs are way too intimidating for me. But somehow JD has the charisma to not look like a bully, but like a... well, the original Greek meaning for Tyrant. So happy for JD, and the smile at the end just proves the charisma thing.
A little tip on how to not get spoiled is to check out https://www.sc2links.com. Here they list the VODS 1-7 even if its not 7 games. In this way you wont get spoiled if its say 3-2 and 10 minutes left of the vod.
I hope this isnt in violation of some tl rules, but I was told this yesterday and wish someone told me this a year ago.
On August 31 2018 17:09 reincremate wrote: On a side note, I'm curious as to when was the last time a cannon rush was executed in a broadcasted PvZ. Maybe someone with more game knowledge/memory can find that?
I think it was free vs EffOrt on Circuit Breaker, in SSL Classic final. EffOrt easily drone drilled vs it tho.
Most recent one I can remember is Bisu v Larva in Game 1 of ASL4 3rd place match:
On August 31 2018 16:47 Moopower wrote: In the 1st game with the hydra bust after the early ling pressure, how is a protoss expected to defend successfully to where he is at least even or ahead of the zerg who is doing an all in type of strategy if he has speedling map control to where your probes cant even scout?
If you make cannons blind, zerg can just switch to economy, or if zerg didn't even go for hydra bust, you're even further behind for investing in cannons early to avoid an autoloss if you didn't have defense for a hydra bust.
One thing I have noticed that could've put Rain in a better situation was to probe block his choke if he was heading out with his zealots. If the early speedlings didn't go in to snipe the cannons he would've been able to defend the hydras more efficiently than at the last moment. But then again the speedlings I feel were such large in numbers that they could've just killed those 4 zealots easily without gaining much intel, and trading inefficiently with speedlings = toss even further behind.
I feel zerg has too many options and not enough things to punish them, while toss if they make one critical mistake, they lose the game.
This has been discussed at great length innumerable times before, but keeping your initial scouting probe alive for as long as possible is really important, and sometimes so is sending out a second probe early on the map. But yeah, PvZ can be unforgivingly brutal, as after denying scouting, Zerg has a ton of options for early all-ins, like 3 hatch hydra, 4 hatch hydra, 2 hatch hydra, mass speedlings, fast mutas, etc while P can only FE or maybe do some quirky 1 gate stargate build, with the only really viable cheese being double proxy gate, hence the slight Z > P > T > Z balance tilt.
On a side note, I'm curious as to when was the last time a cannon rush was executed in a broadcasted PvZ. Maybe someone with more game knowledge/memory can find that?
On August 31 2018 16:47 Moopower wrote: In the 1st game with the hydra bust after the early ling pressure, how is a protoss expected to defend successfully to where he is at least even or ahead of the zerg who is doing an all in type of strategy if he has speedling map control to where your probes cant even scout?
If you make cannons blind, zerg can just switch to economy, or if zerg didn't even go for hydra bust, you're even further behind for investing in cannons early to avoid an autoloss if you didn't have defense for a hydra bust.
One thing I have noticed that could've put Rain in a better situation was to probe block his choke if he was heading out with his zealots. If the early speedlings didn't go in to snipe the cannons he would've been able to defend the hydras more efficiently than at the last moment. But then again the speedlings I feel were such large in numbers that they could've just killed those 4 zealots easily without gaining much intel, and trading inefficiently with speedlings = toss even further behind.
I feel zerg has too many options and not enough things to punish them, while toss if they make one critical mistake, they lose the game.
You need Bisu level scouting to win consistently. PvZ on the highest level is very hard, just like ZvT: the win conditions in both match ups are slim and at the same time it is easy to fuck up.
I know Bisu scouting is top tier, but I haven't seen many zergs try to deny scouting with speedlingsto him specifically. Usually his probe survives around 4:30 minute mark because they are still slow lings, but i'd imagine bisu would have a hard time scouting as well if zergs exploited this timing gap of corsair coming out too late to scout hydra bust and probe being denied. Even if you send out a 2nd probe before your 1st one dies, it is up to the zerg to not play poorly and have great map control with his lings that even if your probe was trying to be sneaky and come in at a weird angle, if zerg was on top of his zerglings to box your probe out from scouting, his speedlings would easily deny subsequent probe scouts.
So if zerg mastered this skill of boxing out your probe scouts with great map control with speedlings, it then becomes a lose-lose situation for protoss unless they come up with a new build to counteract this type of play. But then again protoss can't really exploit any weakness of zerg since they defend much easier in all stages of the game, zerglings spawn pretty quickly so as long as zerg micros his drones to stay alive, his lings will come in to defend properly in time just the fact that protoss can't manuever around as quickly, and until protoss has splash damage in the equation they can't trade efficiently either.
Anyone have any suggestions or ideas of how protoss can exploit or punish this type of play where you have speedling map control?
I'd imagine perhaps protoss could try to do early pressure with 2 gateways after FE, and use that to gain intel while pressuring. But when zerg can just get zerglings for much cheaper and trade more efficiently bc there is usually a greater ceiling on micro control of what you can accomplish with faster units than with slower atking and slow moving units, it still seems bleak options for protoss in this match up. The only reason it seems that protoss kills zerglings is due to less than optimal play from the zerg and it is their game to lose rather than of equal skill.
You can see how protoss has to hug the mineral line to reduce the surface area so that his zealots still pressure zergs natural expansion, and forces him to make more lings in case of more zealot pressure, but forcing zerg to make lings rather than drones is helpful but still puts protoss behind in army, which then can let zerg drone up again to minimize that early economic disadvantage.
The way I see it is if Zerg plays perfectly then Protoss of equal skill will lose more often than not.
In PvT, terran actually has defenses that work for a lot of different types of protoss builds. Turrets pretty much can help curb any type of reaver or dt play. Doesn't matter which one it is,the turrets are both detectors and box out areas where shuttles can roam. So I don't think comparing TvP struggles of Protoss's variety of builds actually compares to Protoss's struggle against zerg's variety of builds. Because each variety of zerg builds requires a completely different response, because if its fast mutas, you can't just cannon up at the natural, you need some at the main, and you need fast corsairs. If it's hydra bust you need cannons first at the natural and then a corsair later to scout. With TvP terran just needs turrets to stay safe from all types of aggressive strategies. Not saying the builds require the same exact response from Terran in a TvP, but the fact that they don't require a different tech tree branch for investment makes it easier to handle all types of builds.
And the ZvT comparison I agree that one critical mistake can cost you the game as zerg like how JD put one too many lurkers at his third, while neglecting his natural. But that's a more controlled variable of the player's skill, rather than luck or due to the game mechanics/limitations. Protoss limitations of scouting in PvZ is probe, corsair or zealot pressure. Corsair is too late for hydra bust, so that leaves just zealots and probes, both are can be addressed by zerg just making sure to stay on top of his lings whether he needs to make more to zone out probes or surround and kill zealots and put protoss behind in army making them slower to push out later.
theres a huge timing window difference between muta and hydra though, you can safely rule one or the other out before wasting cannons all over the place. if zerg opens with something like a 9p speed hes setting himself way behind unless he does something cheesy, and you should scout that he went 9p speed before the speed kicks in and kills your probe, thus giving you all the inclination necessary to send out a second probe and hide it somewhere before you even lose the first one.
EPT
