I don’t like when people say Jaedong’s dry eyes, weak wrists, and old age is making him play bad. The kid has a very good chance to wreck Rain. Especially if he makes Rain nervous. I feel like Rain falls apart when his opponent is playing well. Good luck Jaedong but I’m putting my money on Rain.
On August 30 2018 14:14 XenOsky- wrote: if Rain loses to JaeDong, the finals gonna be boring... unless Last can beat SoulKey, and thats pretty difficult.
On August 30 2018 14:14 XenOsky- wrote: if Rain loses to JaeDong, the finals gonna be boring... unless Last can beat SoulKey, and thats pretty difficult.
Hi Rapid, the last time players played an offline Bo7 knockout match/final was, to my knowledge Sonic Starleague 7 in December 2012, not 2004. Also saying jaedong's biggest opponent is himself is a bit strange when Rain is arguably (and it's a very strong argument right now) the second best player in the world.
Hi Rapid, the last time players played an offline Bo7 knockout match/final was, to my knowledge Sonic Starleague 7 in December 2012, not 2004. Also saying jaedong's biggest opponent is himself is a bit strange when Rain is arguably (and it's a very strong argument right now) the second best player in the world.
actually the last offline Bo7 Finals is from the Kongdoo Starz League between Mind and Kwanro.
Hi Rapid, the last time players played an offline Bo7 knockout match/final was, to my knowledge Sonic Starleague 7 in December 2012, not 2004. Also saying jaedong's biggest opponent is himself is a bit strange when Rain is arguably (and it's a very strong argument right now) the second best player in the world.
actually the last Bo7 Finals is from the Kongdoo Starz League between Mind and ZerO.
Hi Rapid, the last time players played an offline Bo7 knockout match/final was, to my knowledge Sonic Starleague 7 in December 2012, not 2004. Also saying jaedong's biggest opponent is himself is a bit strange when Rain is arguably (and it's a very strong argument right now) the second best player in the world.
actually the last offline Bo7 Finals is from the Kongdoo Starz League between Mind and ZerO.
Ohhh I forgot that tournament happened - even more recent.
This doesn't make sense, JD has shown he can't play in the mid or late game since switching back from SC2. He literally couldn't beat an amatuer in quals without hydra busting. All Rain has to do is make 2 cannons every game and he'll win. what the fuck
On August 30 2018 19:37 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote: This doesn't make sense, JD has shown he can't play in the mid or late game since switching back from SC2. He literally couldn't beat an amatuer in quals without hydra busting. All Rain has to do is make 2 cannons every game and he'll win. what the fuck
On August 30 2018 19:37 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote: This doesn't make sense, JD has shown he can't play in the mid or late game since switching back from SC2. He literally couldn't beat an amatuer in quals without hydra busting. All Rain has to do is make 2 cannons every game and he'll win. what the fuck
If this series ends up like the Leenock/TY GSL series yesterday, where everyone and their mother knew exactly what was going to happen and one of the players decided "fuck it im not gonna show up" This week of starcraft is ruined
On August 30 2018 19:37 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote: This doesn't make sense, JD has shown he can't play in the mid or late game since switching back from SC2. He literally couldn't beat an amatuer in quals without hydra busting. All Rain has to do is make 2 cannons every game and he'll win. what the fuck
On August 30 2018 19:37 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote: This doesn't make sense, JD has shown he can't play in the mid or late game since switching back from SC2. He literally couldn't beat an amatuer in quals without hydra busting. All Rain has to do is make 2 cannons every game and he'll win. what the fuck
so, you never watch jd play then
cool to know
Uh no. He has shown an inability to play past the early game since returning from SC2, this is not opinion, this is fact
On August 30 2018 19:41 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote: If this series ends up like the Leenock/TY GSL series yesterday, where everyone and their mother knew exactly what was going to happen and one of the players decided "fuck it im not gonna show up" This week of starcraft is ruined
we're having the time of our lives, here have some rainbow sheep.
On August 30 2018 19:37 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote: This doesn't make sense, JD has shown he can't play in the mid or late game since switching back from SC2. He literally couldn't beat an amatuer in quals without hydra busting. All Rain has to do is make 2 cannons every game and he'll win. what the fuck
Don't you think these two players have met each other repeatedly on the ladder and played tons of sponsored + practice matches resulting in them knowing each other's ability rather well? Might it be possible that Rain knows Jaedong's playstyle and level a little better than you?
On August 30 2018 19:41 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote: If this series ends up like the Leenock/TY GSL series yesterday, where everyone and their mother knew exactly what was going to happen and one of the players decided "fuck it im not gonna show up" This week of starcraft is ruined
<style>body { background: url('http://i.imgur.com/N7oIV.gif'); }</style>we're having the time of our lives, here have some rainbow sheep.
On August 30 2018 19:37 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote: This doesn't make sense, JD has shown he can't play in the mid or late game since switching back from SC2. He literally couldn't beat an amatuer in quals without hydra busting. All Rain has to do is make 2 cannons every game and he'll win. what the fuck
so, you never watch jd play then
cool to know
Uh no. He has shown an inability to play past the early game since returning from SC2, this is not opinion, this is fact
here watch a random recent vod and educate yourself
Why would you not win with a rush if you see that toss is not respecting you. That doesn't mean JD can't play late game, this only shows how good JD reads the game and is able to adapt instantly.
On August 30 2018 19:37 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote: This doesn't make sense, JD has shown he can't play in the mid or late game since switching back from SC2. He literally couldn't beat an amatuer in quals without hydra busting. All Rain has to do is make 2 cannons every game and he'll win. what the fuck
so, you never watch jd play then
cool to know
Uh no. He has shown an inability to play past the early game since returning from SC2, this is not opinion, this is fact
no, is not, did u even watch Light vs JaeDong? his ZvT mid-late game management was close to perfection.
On August 30 2018 19:46 Zera wrote: Why would you not win with a rush if you see that toss is not respecting you. That doesn't mean JD can't play late game, this only shows how good JD reads the game and is able to adapt instantly.
I'm starting to think that Rain can't even survive past the 20 minute mark against JD
Page 4 freak me out when it loaded. Jaedong on fire right now. Against the reigning ALS champ too. Rain did well even though he behind though at the end. Some very nice Psi-Storms. Great to see JD in from though.
On August 30 2018 20:07 NoS-Craig wrote: I feel like Rain is turning into Flash with how much people want him to lose. Then again people just love Jaedong.
yeap! no hate Rain at all!! he is a very good player!! but i love JD way way way too much !!
On August 30 2018 20:07 NoS-Craig wrote: I feel like Rain is turning into Flash with how much people want him to lose. Then again people just love Jaedong.
On August 30 2018 20:07 NoS-Craig wrote: I feel like Rain is turning into Flash with how much people want him to lose. Then again people just love Jaedong.
I don't think too many people are anti-Rain. I think most of us here are really pro-Jaedong though.
It's interesting, with how many people are saying JD makes terrible decisions in some games, but looks brilliant in others, that must be one of the most frustrating players to play against in a series. It shows that sometimes he really does make decisions that lose you 9/10 games, and I can imagine that slight hesitation can make all the difference at this level. It's probably part of why Rain seems so sensitive to what JD is doing to him so far.
On August 30 2018 20:07 NoS-Craig wrote: I feel like Rain is turning into Flash with how much people want him to lose. Then again people just love Jaedong.
I don't think too many people are anti-Rain. I think most of us here are really pro-Jaedong though.
there is not a single person in the world who is not pro-jaedong
On August 30 2018 20:07 NoS-Craig wrote: I feel like Rain is turning into Flash with how much people want him to lose. Then again people just love Jaedong.
I don't think too many people are anti-Rain. I think most of us here are really pro-Jaedong though.
there is not a single person in the world who is not pro-jaedong
On August 30 2018 20:07 NoS-Craig wrote: I feel like Rain is turning into Flash with how much people want him to lose. Then again people just love Jaedong.
On August 30 2018 20:07 NoS-Craig wrote: I feel like Rain is turning into Flash with how much people want him to lose. Then again people just love Jaedong.
Call me when Rain wins everything forever.
rain turning into flash? um, no one can turn into flash. no one can emulate flash's success in BW
On August 30 2018 20:07 NoS-Craig wrote: I feel like Rain is turning into Flash with how much people want him to lose. Then again people just love Jaedong.
I don't think too many people are anti-Rain. I think most of us here are really pro-Jaedong though.
there is not a single person in the world who is not pro-jaedong
On August 30 2018 20:07 NoS-Craig wrote: I feel like Rain is turning into Flash with how much people want him to lose. Then again people just love Jaedong.
Call me when Rain wins everything forever.
rain turning into flash? um, no one can turn into flash. no one can emulate flash's success in BW
On August 30 2018 20:30 thezanursic wrote: It's cool that JD is going to the finals, but when we had 3 zergs in the entire KSL, I thought we'd avoid ZvZ...
We're going to have Soulkey vs JD finals aren't we...
On August 30 2018 20:30 thezanursic wrote: It's cool that JD is going to the finals, but when we had 3 zergs in the entire KSL, I thought we'd avoid ZvZ...
We're going to have Soulkey vs JD finals aren't we...
why everyone is writing last off? isnt he supposed to be the 2nd best terran?
On August 30 2018 19:37 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote: This doesn't make sense, JD has shown he can't play in the mid or late game since switching back from SC2. He literally couldn't beat an amatuer in quals without hydra busting. All Rain has to do is make 2 cannons every game and he'll win. what the fuck
On August 30 2018 20:30 thezanursic wrote: It's cool that JD is going to the finals, but when we had 3 zergs in the entire KSL, I thought we'd avoid ZvZ...
We're going to have Soulkey vs JD finals aren't we...
why everyone is writing last off? isnt he supposed to be the 2nd best terran?
I haven't been following too much but from my impression Last has been performing worse in ASL than Soulkey and Soulkey has had some very nice results
On August 30 2018 19:37 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote: This doesn't make sense, JD has shown he can't play in the mid or late game since switching back from SC2. He literally couldn't beat an amatuer in quals without hydra busting. All Rain has to do is make 2 cannons every game and he'll win. what the fuck
On August 30 2018 20:30 thezanursic wrote: It's cool that JD is going to the finals, but when we had 3 zergs in the entire KSL, I thought we'd avoid ZvZ...
We're going to have Soulkey vs JD finals aren't we...
why everyone is writing last off? isnt he supposed to be the 2nd best terran?
I haven't been following too much but from my impression Last has been performing worse in ASL than Soulkey and Soulkey has had some very nice results
And with how Soulkey killed Sharp in the ro8, I'm also heavily favoring soulkey.
On August 30 2018 19:37 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote: This doesn't make sense, JD has shown he can't play in the mid or late game since switching back from SC2. He literally couldn't beat an amatuer in quals without hydra busting. All Rain has to do is make 2 cannons every game and he'll win. what the fuck
Perhaps Rain was a bit off today or not as well-prepared, but Jaedong played impeccably. His play was both strategically and mechanically tight. And that lurker egg block was pimp as fuck. First offline Bo7 since the SOSPA era is a 4-0 sweep by JD. Damn, son.
Been on and off watching BW since ASL started, missed a few of those, but man, so glad I caught this tonight. After watching him fail so many times even when professional BW was still around, him finally making a Starleague final... I never thought I'd see that again. The manner in which he won today too - that mindgame on game 3 was insane. The utter DOMINATION. Definitely a memorable moment right up there with that reverse sweep of Fantasy in the Batoo OSL. Especially if he ends up winning the entire thing.
I am worried about a final vs Soulkey though. JvZ seems to falter where it's needed most. Watched him lose to Hydra in the ABC Mart MSL semis, drop out of Bacchus 2010 OSL Ro16 to Hogil, and then more recently a ZvZ stacked group in the last ASL?
I teared up man. More so than if JD had lost. Despite my fears I really hope to experience those feelings again when the final rolls around next week. Just one more series...
Edit: LOL PAGE 9
Had this pic saved from Jaedong all-killing back in Winner's League, appropriate:
Rain has a real weakness vs good defensive zergs though. He's always way to eager to bust defensive positions and it hurts him so bad. I remember Larva taking him down in ASL in a similar way.
Jaedong did what by.hero used to do to Bisu. It's almost identical. The early ling tactics are very hard to recover from and is a huge weakness for most players to deal with. Protoss these days need to get a third with out have any economic disruption in order to win. Jaedong didn't allow that to happen once.
On August 30 2018 20:07 NoS-Craig wrote: I feel like Rain is turning into Flash with how much people want him to lose. Then again people just love Jaedong.
I don't think too many people are anti-Rain. I think most of us here are really pro-Jaedong though.
there is not a single person in the world who is not pro-jaedong
On August 30 2018 20:07 NoS-Craig wrote: I feel like Rain is turning into Flash with how much people want him to lose. Then again people just love Jaedong.
I don't think too many people are anti-Rain. I think most of us here are really pro-Jaedong though.
there is not a single person in the world who is not pro-jaedong
On August 30 2018 20:07 NoS-Craig wrote: I feel like Rain is turning into Flash with how much people want him to lose. Then again people just love Jaedong.
I don't think too many people are anti-Rain. I think most of us here are really pro-Jaedong though.
there is not a single person in the world who is not pro-jaedong
uhh, I'm anti JD
Can you prove that you are a person though
sry, i changed to anti-zerg, which means not just JD, but any zerg. I also never followed any of the BW giants since I never watched BW.
Never had a passion for that game. Like literally Rain is my favorite Protoss of all time, he loses 4-0 and I don't even bat an eye. That's how much I don't care about this game.
On August 30 2018 20:07 NoS-Craig wrote: I feel like Rain is turning into Flash with how much people want him to lose. Then again people just love Jaedong.
I don't think too many people are anti-Rain. I think most of us here are really pro-Jaedong though.
there is not a single person in the world who is not pro-jaedong
uhh, I'm anti JD
Can you prove that you are a person though
sry, i changed to anti-zerg, which means not just JD, but any zerg. I also never followed any of the BW giants since I never watched BW.
Never had a passion for that game. Like literally Rain is my favorite Protoss of all time, he loses 4-0 and I don't even bat an eye. That's how much I don't care about this game.
What are you doing here then, are you that thirsty for a ban?
On August 30 2018 20:07 NoS-Craig wrote: I feel like Rain is turning into Flash with how much people want him to lose. Then again people just love Jaedong.
I don't think too many people are anti-Rain. I think most of us here are really pro-Jaedong though.
there is not a single person in the world who is not pro-jaedong
uhh, I'm anti JD
Can you prove that you are a person though
sry, i changed to anti-zerg, which means not just JD, but any zerg. I also never followed any of the BW giants since I never watched BW.
Never had a passion for that game. Like literally Rain is my favorite Protoss of all time, he loses 4-0 and I don't even bat an eye. That's how much I don't care about this game.
Look at his footnote - he is anti zerg (and JD) and pro Faker. It can't be coincidence.
On August 30 2018 20:07 NoS-Craig wrote: I feel like Rain is turning into Flash with how much people want him to lose. Then again people just love Jaedong.
I don't think too many people are anti-Rain. I think most of us here are really pro-Jaedong though.
there is not a single person in the world who is not pro-jaedong
uhh, I'm anti JD
Can you prove that you are a person though
sry, i changed to anti-zerg, which means not just JD, but any zerg. I also never followed any of the BW giants since I never watched BW.
Never had a passion for that game. Like literally Rain is my favorite Protoss of all time, he loses 4-0 and I don't even bat an eye. That's how much I don't care about this game.
Look at his footnote - he is anti zerg (and JD) and pro Faker. It can't be coincidence.
apparently you cant have separate footnotes for the starcraft and lol sections....
On August 30 2018 20:07 NoS-Craig wrote: I feel like Rain is turning into Flash with how much people want him to lose. Then again people just love Jaedong.
I don't think too many people are anti-Rain. I think most of us here are really pro-Jaedong though.
there is not a single person in the world who is not pro-jaedong
uhh, I'm anti JD
Can you prove that you are a person though
sry, i changed to anti-zerg, which means not just JD, but any zerg. I also never followed any of the BW giants since I never watched BW.
Never had a passion for that game. Like literally Rain is my favorite Protoss of all time, he loses 4-0 and I don't even bat an eye. That's how much I don't care about this game.
What are you doing here then, are you that thirsty for a ban?
I'm impressed, Jaedong played perfectly. Even though in the 4th game, I felt like Rain was kind of throwing the game. He wasted over and over most of his army against well-defended positions instead of trying to get another base with gas and securing a better economy which I think is the way to go. If you are protoss you better play defensive and safe in late-game situations aiming to be equal on bases because your units are more cost-efficient than zerg units. If Rain wasn't so careless I think he might have won the game.
Anyways I'm glad JD got to the final displaying such amazing skill. I hope Last wins now so we can have a ZvT finals instead of ZvZ
On August 31 2018 00:58 MymSlorm wrote: I'm impressed, Jaedong played perfectly. Even though in the 4th game, I felt like Rain was kind of throwing the game. He wasted over and over most of his army against well-defended positions instead of trying to get another base with gas and securing a better economy which I think is the way to go. If you are protoss you better play defensive and safe in late-game situations aiming to be equal on bases because your units are more cost-efficient than zerg units. If Rain wasn't so careless I think he might have won the game.
Anyways I'm glad JD got to the final displaying such amazing skill. I hope Last wins now so we can have a ZvT finals instead of ZvZ
Well JD did lose a handful of lurkers when attacking Rains third base. Rain was ahead for most of that game, so maybe he thought he could close it out
On August 30 2018 20:07 NoS-Craig wrote: I feel like Rain is turning into Flash with how much people want him to lose. Then again people just love Jaedong.
I don't think too many people are anti-Rain. I think most of us here are really pro-Jaedong though.
there is not a single person in the world who is not pro-jaedong
uhh, I'm anti JD
Can you prove that you are a person though
sry, i changed to anti-zerg, which means not just JD, but any zerg. I also never followed any of the BW giants since I never watched BW.
Never had a passion for that game. Like literally Rain is my favorite Protoss of all time, he loses 4-0 and I don't even bat an eye. That's how much I don't care about this game.
What are you doing here then, are you that thirsty for a ban?
Is giving an opinion ban-worthy though?
Coming in the BW forum to say "That's how much I don't care about this game." is generally frowned upon.
Woke up in the middle of the night to watch Jaedong absolutely dumpster Rain. Was so worth it. I hope to god last wins though. We dont need another mirror finals
On August 30 2018 20:07 NoS-Craig wrote: I feel like Rain is turning into Flash with how much people want him to lose. Then again people just love Jaedong.
I don't think too many people are anti-Rain. I think most of us here are really pro-Jaedong though.
there is not a single person in the world who is not pro-jaedong
uhh, I'm anti JD
Can you prove that you are a person though
sry, i changed to anti-zerg, which means not just JD, but any zerg. I also never followed any of the BW giants since I never watched BW.
Never had a passion for that game. Like literally Rain is my favorite Protoss of all time, he loses 4-0 and I don't even bat an eye. That's how much I don't care about this game.
What are you doing here then, are you that thirsty for a ban?
Is giving an opinion ban-worthy though?
Coming in the BW forum to say "That's how much I don't care about this game." is generally frowned upon.
You can clearly see he doesn't care his favourite player lost 0-4.
On August 30 2018 19:42 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote: Uh no. He has shown an inability to play past the early game since returning from SC2, this is not opinion, this is fact
This is just so wrong.
He beat light in some games that went to mid. Vs Snow he actually switched to standard mid games to get his last 3 wins. His last 2 wins against RAIN reached defilers. What the heck you even talking about?
The ling control and reading of the game was incredible by JD, it brought back a lot of memories.
Also am I crazy or did Rain miscontrol and/or make too few observers? He probably had to skimp on the observers due to JD's choking play, but Rain seemed to neglect his obs in most fights.
Amaaaaaaaaaaaaaazing game ffs that was the most fun I've ever had watching BW. And JD's smile after he won. He so deserved this. So happy!
Felt like a real strategy game this time, not just mechanics and apm-fest. Great game sense from JD, at least in the 3 first games. So much fun. I reall hope he wins this shit.
And great commentary by Tastosis once again. You're so easy to listen to when you're just being yourself in a relaxed manner.
On August 31 2018 03:14 mierin wrote: It's weird...I love JD to death and really want him to win this championship, but I have a feeling once he gets his final win he'll go to the military
Yeah
They need to draft him into the Asian Games cup final against Japan this Saturday!
Holy fuck, what a domination against previous ASL champ. JD on finals after so many years, truly seems like yesterday's OSL era and I can't watch it. Truly FML. I love SK but pls Tyrant vs. AlphaGo finals. Last has 2nd place curse.
On August 31 2018 07:01 outscar wrote: Holy fuck, what a domination against previous ASL champ. JD on finals after so many years, truly seems like yesterday's OSL era and I can't watch it. Truly FML. I love SK but pls Tyrant vs. AlphaGo finals. Last has 2nd place curse.
Best moment: JD bodyblocking Rains army/goons trapping them at the exp with the lurker egg/units :-D In the heat of the battle only a true champion with starsense does these things. JD is one of them. "The best zerg of all time" -Tasteless at the end of the cast. NO DOUBT. JD forever<3
I remember that moment. Tastosis went crazy when he blocks with those morphing Lurks. The final game was pretty fun to watch overall. Great to see JD on fire.
Its like something snapped in Jaedong's brain after that game two against Snow. Two really strange and questionable games - and then just total domination.
BW remastered looks just beautiful. I wish it will stay relevant forever.
Daaaaaymn this is the JD I've missed, so fun to watch him play well again. Early pool in all four games = classic JD, it's amazing how he can win with aggro play every time.
Hopefully it ends in a ZvZ final where JD can show off his best matchup and more of his insane micro.
Man everyone hating on ZvZ yet they’re perfectly happy with the PvP fest that’s been the KSL and last ASL. It’s my favourite match up to watch and play (12 pool every game). It’s also a match up Jaedong was known to excel at. Super fast paced and exciting games. Hope SoulKey wrecks Last. He’s significantly better under pressure than Last (who I feel is very overhyped).
Also lol at people complaining about Jaedong hydra busting/Ling rushing when Protoss goes reavers or fast DTs in every PVT
I wouldn't mind a ZvZ between Jaedong and SoulKey. Both of those players are so good. The games wouldn't last as long but I believe it could still be a fun batch of games. If not a TvZ against Last would be fun to watch as well.
We are already fortunate to have had this treat of a Bo7 PvZ semifinals and will have a Bo7 TvZ semifinals shortly, so I wouldn't mind having a showdown between Jaedong and Soulkey for the grand finals (although I'd still strongly prefer Jaedong vs Last in the best match-up of the game).
Just watched the vods and dam it brought back alot of memories of JD's peak. Amazing micro, macro, decision making and strategic choices. Absolutely unstoppable. Believe in the Dong!!
Also I was spoiled by Twitch, I was looking for the full vod while scrolling and saw only 4 individual games uploaded so I sorta knew JD won 4-0 after the first game.
On August 31 2018 14:42 Dante08 wrote: Just watched the vods and dam it brought back alot of memories of JD's peak. Amazing micro, macro, decision making and strategic choices. Absolutely unstoppable. Believe in the Dong!!
Also I was spoiled by Twitch, I was looking for the full vod while scrolling and saw only 4 individual games uploaded so I sorta knew JD won 4-0 after the first game.
I recommend watching vods always from https://www.sc2links.com/ they upload them there asap and are spoilerfree (yes sc1 vods too).
On August 31 2018 14:16 reincremate wrote: We are already fortunate to have had this treat of a Bo7 PvZ semifinals and will have a Bo7 TvZ semifinals shortly, so I wouldn't mind having a showdown between Jaedong and Soulkey for the grand finals (although I'd still strongly prefer Jaedong vs Last in the best match-up of the game).
I could watch paint dry for 10 hours after this series.
PS. Maybe we could add the twitch links under the recommended games in OP so it's spoilerfree. Saw there were only four when I went to look at the VODs yesterday.
In the 1st game with the hydra bust after the early ling pressure, how is a protoss expected to defend successfully to where he is at least even or ahead of the zerg who is doing an all in type of strategy if he has speedling map control to where your probes cant even scout?
If you make cannons blind, zerg can just switch to economy, or if zerg didn't even go for hydra bust, you're even further behind for investing in cannons early to avoid an autoloss if you didn't have defense for a hydra bust.
One thing I have noticed that could've put Rain in a better situation was to probe block his choke if he was heading out with his zealots. If the early speedlings didn't go in to snipe the cannons he would've been able to defend the hydras more efficiently than at the last moment. But then again the speedlings I feel were such large in numbers that they could've just killed those 4 zealots easily without gaining much intel, and trading inefficiently with speedlings = toss even further behind.
I feel zerg has too many options and not enough things to punish them, while toss if they make one critical mistake, they lose the game.
On August 31 2018 16:47 Moopower wrote: In the 1st game with the hydra bust after the early ling pressure, how is a protoss expected to defend successfully to where he is at least even or ahead of the zerg who is doing an all in type of strategy if he has speedling map control to where your probes cant even scout?
If you make cannons blind, zerg can just switch to economy, or if zerg didn't even go for hydra bust, you're even further behind for investing in cannons early to avoid an autoloss if you didn't have defense for a hydra bust.
One thing I have noticed that could've put Rain in a better situation was to probe block his choke if he was heading out with his zealots. If the early speedlings didn't go in to snipe the cannons he would've been able to defend the hydras more efficiently than at the last moment. But then again the speedlings I feel were such large in numbers that they could've just killed those 4 zealots easily without gaining much intel, and trading inefficiently with speedlings = toss even further behind.
I feel zerg has too many options and not enough things to punish them, while toss if they make one critical mistake, they lose the game.
This has been discussed at great length innumerable times before, but keeping your initial scouting probe alive for as long as possible is really important, and sometimes so is sending out a second probe early on the map. But yeah, PvZ can be unforgivingly brutal, as after denying scouting, Zerg has a ton of options for early all-ins, like 3 hatch hydra, 4 hatch hydra, 2 hatch hydra, mass speedlings, fast mutas, etc while P can only FE or maybe do some quirky 1 gate stargate build, with the only really viable cheese being double proxy gate, hence the slight Z > P > T > Z balance tilt.
On a side note, I'm curious as to when was the last time a cannon rush was executed in a broadcasted PvZ. Maybe someone with more game knowledge/memory can find that?
On August 31 2018 16:47 Moopower wrote: In the 1st game with the hydra bust after the early ling pressure, how is a protoss expected to defend successfully to where he is at least even or ahead of the zerg who is doing an all in type of strategy if he has speedling map control to where your probes cant even scout?
If you make cannons blind, zerg can just switch to economy, or if zerg didn't even go for hydra bust, you're even further behind for investing in cannons early to avoid an autoloss if you didn't have defense for a hydra bust.
One thing I have noticed that could've put Rain in a better situation was to probe block his choke if he was heading out with his zealots. If the early speedlings didn't go in to snipe the cannons he would've been able to defend the hydras more efficiently than at the last moment. But then again the speedlings I feel were such large in numbers that they could've just killed those 4 zealots easily without gaining much intel, and trading inefficiently with speedlings = toss even further behind.
I feel zerg has too many options and not enough things to punish them, while toss if they make one critical mistake, they lose the game.
You need Bisu level scouting to win consistently. PvZ on the highest level is very hard, just like ZvT: the win conditions in both match ups are slim and at the same time it is easy to fuck up.
On August 31 2018 16:47 Moopower wrote: I feel zerg has too many options and not enough things to punish them, while toss if they make one critical mistake, they lose the game.
Welcome to the "hard" match up. ZvT you can die super easily to terran - one mistake and you lose your third and the game (e.g. jaedong bringing one extra lurker to his third ended up losing him the game vs Light). TvP is also extremely hard at lower levels.
These match ups were probably more balanced when people had more time to practice. Protoss has been doing alright at PvZ though. Zerg weren't taking enough advantage of early aggression.
When Zerg does early aggression people see it as cheesey and unfair. When Protoss do early aggression and abuse the absolute fuck out of PvT they're seen as tactical geniuses because everyone here plays Toss.
On August 31 2018 16:47 Moopower wrote: I feel zerg has too many options and not enough things to punish them, while toss if they make one critical mistake, they lose the game.
Welcome to the "hard" match up. ZvT you can die super easily to terran - one mistake and you lose your third and the game (e.g. jaedong bringing one extra lurker to his third ended up losing him the game vs Light). TvP is also extremely hard at lower levels.
These match ups were probably more balanced when people had more time to practice. Protoss has been doing alright at PvZ though. Zerg weren't taking enough advantage of early aggression.
When Zerg does early aggression people see it as cheesey and unfair. When Protoss do early aggression and abuse the absolute fuck out of PvT they're seen as tactical geniuses because everyone here plays Toss.
On August 31 2018 00:58 MymSlorm wrote: I'm impressed, Jaedong played perfectly. Even though in the 4th game, I felt like Rain was kind of throwing the game. He wasted over and over most of his army against well-defended positions instead of trying to get another base with gas and securing a better economy which I think is the way to go. If you are protoss you better play defensive and safe in late-game situations aiming to be equal on bases because your units are more cost-efficient than zerg units. If Rain wasn't so careless I think he might have won the game.
Anyways I'm glad JD got to the final displaying such amazing skill. I hope Last wins now so we can have a ZvT finals instead of ZvZ
He did the same vs Larva in ASL. People will tell you that you have to break the zerg because even with Z having less bases, Z>P in late game. I disagree, but whaddo I know! edit: This one actually wasnt as bad as vs ASL, because as someone pointed out, he has a reason to believe he might have enough to break or deal sufficient damage to JD at that point in the game when he attacked his bottom base.
On August 31 2018 00:58 MymSlorm wrote: I'm impressed, Jaedong played perfectly. Even though in the 4th game, I felt like Rain was kind of throwing the game. He wasted over and over most of his army against well-defended positions instead of trying to get another base with gas and securing a better economy which I think is the way to go. If you are protoss you better play defensive and safe in late-game situations aiming to be equal on bases because your units are more cost-efficient than zerg units. If Rain wasn't so careless I think he might have won the game.
Anyways I'm glad JD got to the final displaying such amazing skill. I hope Last wins now so we can have a ZvT finals instead of ZvZ
He did the same vs Larva in ASL. People will tell you that you have to break the zerg because even with Z having less bases, Z>P in late game. I disagree, but whaddo I know!
Well, Z>P early, mid and late game. And i do know. : )
On August 31 2018 00:58 MymSlorm wrote: I'm impressed, Jaedong played perfectly. Even though in the 4th game, I felt like Rain was kind of throwing the game. He wasted over and over most of his army against well-defended positions instead of trying to get another base with gas and securing a better economy which I think is the way to go. If you are protoss you better play defensive and safe in late-game situations aiming to be equal on bases because your units are more cost-efficient than zerg units. If Rain wasn't so careless I think he might have won the game.
Anyways I'm glad JD got to the final displaying such amazing skill. I hope Last wins now so we can have a ZvT finals instead of ZvZ
He did the same vs Larva in ASL. People will tell you that you have to break the zerg because even with Z having less bases, Z>P in late game. I disagree, but whaddo I know!
Well, Z>P early, mid and late game. And i do know. : )
Z>T late game as well these days thanks to ultras.
On August 31 2018 00:58 MymSlorm wrote: I'm impressed, Jaedong played perfectly. Even though in the 4th game, I felt like Rain was kind of throwing the game. He wasted over and over most of his army against well-defended positions instead of trying to get another base with gas and securing a better economy which I think is the way to go. If you are protoss you better play defensive and safe in late-game situations aiming to be equal on bases because your units are more cost-efficient than zerg units. If Rain wasn't so careless I think he might have won the game.
Anyways I'm glad JD got to the final displaying such amazing skill. I hope Last wins now so we can have a ZvT finals instead of ZvZ
He did the same vs Larva in ASL. People will tell you that you have to break the zerg because even with Z having less bases, Z>P in late game. I disagree, but whaddo I know!
I think the constant saying of Z maxed army is the strongest is a bunch of horse shit. It's only true if zerg has the oppotunity to flank from all sites. Maxed Mech and late game toss are both stronger in a straight up fight.
On August 31 2018 00:58 MymSlorm wrote: I'm impressed, Jaedong played perfectly. Even though in the 4th game, I felt like Rain was kind of throwing the game. He wasted over and over most of his army against well-defended positions instead of trying to get another base with gas and securing a better economy which I think is the way to go. If you are protoss you better play defensive and safe in late-game situations aiming to be equal on bases because your units are more cost-efficient than zerg units. If Rain wasn't so careless I think he might have won the game.
Anyways I'm glad JD got to the final displaying such amazing skill. I hope Last wins now so we can have a ZvT finals instead of ZvZ
He did the same vs Larva in ASL. People will tell you that you have to break the zerg because even with Z having less bases, Z>P in late game. I disagree, but whaddo I know!
Well, Z>P early, mid and late game. And i do know. : )
Ha! You are preaching to the choir here! Everything considered, Z>>>>P! But Z having less bases? With P allowed to have all the tech he wants basically untouched? P with complete map control? Both maxed army but P up two bases with likely a massive massive bank of resources.. Thats what Rain could have had vs Larva but apparently he CANT let that happen because he will just lose. I think Z imba too bro, but it cant be that bad!
On August 31 2018 18:45 Miragee wrote: Just watched the games. Never would have guessed that. JD played like he is on fire right now. I got chills. So glad for him!
On August 31 2018 00:58 MymSlorm wrote: I'm impressed, Jaedong played perfectly. Even though in the 4th game, I felt like Rain was kind of throwing the game. He wasted over and over most of his army against well-defended positions instead of trying to get another base with gas and securing a better economy which I think is the way to go. If you are protoss you better play defensive and safe in late-game situations aiming to be equal on bases because your units are more cost-efficient than zerg units. If Rain wasn't so careless I think he might have won the game.
Anyways I'm glad JD got to the final displaying such amazing skill. I hope Last wins now so we can have a ZvT finals instead of ZvZ
He did the same vs Larva in ASL. People will tell you that you have to break the zerg because even with Z having less bases, Z>P in late game. I disagree, but whaddo I know!
I think the constant saying of Z maxed army is the strongest is a bunch of horse shit. It's only true if zerg has the oppotunity to flank from all sites. Maxed Mech and late game toss are both stronger in a straight up fight.
On August 31 2018 18:45 Miragee wrote: Just watched the games. Never would have guessed that. JD played like he is on fire right now. I got chills. So glad for him!
On August 31 2018 18:28 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:
On August 31 2018 00:58 MymSlorm wrote: I'm impressed, Jaedong played perfectly. Even though in the 4th game, I felt like Rain was kind of throwing the game. He wasted over and over most of his army against well-defended positions instead of trying to get another base with gas and securing a better economy which I think is the way to go. If you are protoss you better play defensive and safe in late-game situations aiming to be equal on bases because your units are more cost-efficient than zerg units. If Rain wasn't so careless I think he might have won the game.
Anyways I'm glad JD got to the final displaying such amazing skill. I hope Last wins now so we can have a ZvT finals instead of ZvZ
He did the same vs Larva in ASL. People will tell you that you have to break the zerg because even with Z having less bases, Z>P in late game. I disagree, but whaddo I know!
I think the constant saying of Z maxed army is the strongest is a bunch of horse shit. It's only true if zerg has the oppotunity to flank from all sites. Maxed Mech and late game toss are both stronger in a straight up fight.
Z can replace an army way quicker though
True and that's the chance zerg has in late game: Dwindle the other race down. But it's telling that on late game bunker maps, such as Blue Storm for example, protoss excels vs zerg in late game (yes, it's the other way around in early game but that's beside the point).
On August 31 2018 18:45 Miragee wrote: Just watched the games. Never would have guessed that. JD played like he is on fire right now. I got chills. So glad for him!
On August 31 2018 18:28 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:
On August 31 2018 00:58 MymSlorm wrote: I'm impressed, Jaedong played perfectly. Even though in the 4th game, I felt like Rain was kind of throwing the game. He wasted over and over most of his army against well-defended positions instead of trying to get another base with gas and securing a better economy which I think is the way to go. If you are protoss you better play defensive and safe in late-game situations aiming to be equal on bases because your units are more cost-efficient than zerg units. If Rain wasn't so careless I think he might have won the game.
Anyways I'm glad JD got to the final displaying such amazing skill. I hope Last wins now so we can have a ZvT finals instead of ZvZ
He did the same vs Larva in ASL. People will tell you that you have to break the zerg because even with Z having less bases, Z>P in late game. I disagree, but whaddo I know!
I think the constant saying of Z maxed army is the strongest is a bunch of horse shit. It's only true if zerg has the oppotunity to flank from all sites. Maxed Mech and late game toss are both stronger in a straight up fight.
Z can replace an army way quicker though
Yes but Z typically trades inefficiently in most cases. If it does trade efficiently, then yeah Z wins. I actually think it is easier to trade efficiently vs mech if you play it right because of dark swarm and overlord drops, which decimate tanks which are so valuable. But vs P, you are up against storms and reaver shots. You gotta get up in there with drops, but corsairs are std in that matchup; in ZvT, wraiths/valks arent, and gols weaken T army the more you have of them.
On August 31 2018 17:09 reincremate wrote: On a side note, I'm curious as to when was the last time a cannon rush was executed in a broadcasted PvZ. Maybe someone with more game knowledge/memory can find that?
I think it was free vs EffOrt on Circuit Breaker, in SSL Classic final. EffOrt easily drone drilled vs it tho.
Wow, just watched the games. I was happy about JD returning to his former self, I was a bit anxious about the games, since Rain is definitely the best protoss around.
Then I saw the total length of the video being below 2 hours and was "man, did Rain beat him 4:0?"
Then I saw game one, my jaw dropped and thought there were some quick games traded between the two afterwards.
Game two was quick enough, I said.
Then we got to game three.
And then the rainbow sheep came.
Man, I hate zerg with a rare passion, but JD is a very, very notable exception. I admire a good zerg, but I don't watch the games, good zergs are way too intimidating for me. But somehow JD has the charisma to not look like a bully, but like a... well, the original Greek meaning for Tyrant. So happy for JD, and the smile at the end just proves the charisma thing.
A little tip on how to not get spoiled is to check out https://www.sc2links.com. Here they list the VODS 1-7 even if its not 7 games. In this way you wont get spoiled if its say 3-2 and 10 minutes left of the vod.
I hope this isnt in violation of some tl rules, but I was told this yesterday and wish someone told me this a year ago.
On August 31 2018 17:09 reincremate wrote: On a side note, I'm curious as to when was the last time a cannon rush was executed in a broadcasted PvZ. Maybe someone with more game knowledge/memory can find that?
I think it was free vs EffOrt on Circuit Breaker, in SSL Classic final. EffOrt easily drone drilled vs it tho.
Most recent one I can remember is Bisu v Larva in Game 1 of ASL4 3rd place match:
On August 31 2018 16:47 Moopower wrote: In the 1st game with the hydra bust after the early ling pressure, how is a protoss expected to defend successfully to where he is at least even or ahead of the zerg who is doing an all in type of strategy if he has speedling map control to where your probes cant even scout?
If you make cannons blind, zerg can just switch to economy, or if zerg didn't even go for hydra bust, you're even further behind for investing in cannons early to avoid an autoloss if you didn't have defense for a hydra bust.
One thing I have noticed that could've put Rain in a better situation was to probe block his choke if he was heading out with his zealots. If the early speedlings didn't go in to snipe the cannons he would've been able to defend the hydras more efficiently than at the last moment. But then again the speedlings I feel were such large in numbers that they could've just killed those 4 zealots easily without gaining much intel, and trading inefficiently with speedlings = toss even further behind.
I feel zerg has too many options and not enough things to punish them, while toss if they make one critical mistake, they lose the game.
This has been discussed at great length innumerable times before, but keeping your initial scouting probe alive for as long as possible is really important, and sometimes so is sending out a second probe early on the map. But yeah, PvZ can be unforgivingly brutal, as after denying scouting, Zerg has a ton of options for early all-ins, like 3 hatch hydra, 4 hatch hydra, 2 hatch hydra, mass speedlings, fast mutas, etc while P can only FE or maybe do some quirky 1 gate stargate build, with the only really viable cheese being double proxy gate, hence the slight Z > P > T > Z balance tilt.
On a side note, I'm curious as to when was the last time a cannon rush was executed in a broadcasted PvZ. Maybe someone with more game knowledge/memory can find that?
On August 31 2018 16:47 Moopower wrote: In the 1st game with the hydra bust after the early ling pressure, how is a protoss expected to defend successfully to where he is at least even or ahead of the zerg who is doing an all in type of strategy if he has speedling map control to where your probes cant even scout?
If you make cannons blind, zerg can just switch to economy, or if zerg didn't even go for hydra bust, you're even further behind for investing in cannons early to avoid an autoloss if you didn't have defense for a hydra bust.
One thing I have noticed that could've put Rain in a better situation was to probe block his choke if he was heading out with his zealots. If the early speedlings didn't go in to snipe the cannons he would've been able to defend the hydras more efficiently than at the last moment. But then again the speedlings I feel were such large in numbers that they could've just killed those 4 zealots easily without gaining much intel, and trading inefficiently with speedlings = toss even further behind.
I feel zerg has too many options and not enough things to punish them, while toss if they make one critical mistake, they lose the game.
You need Bisu level scouting to win consistently. PvZ on the highest level is very hard, just like ZvT: the win conditions in both match ups are slim and at the same time it is easy to fuck up.
I know Bisu scouting is top tier, but I haven't seen many zergs try to deny scouting with speedlingsto him specifically. Usually his probe survives around 4:30 minute mark because they are still slow lings, but i'd imagine bisu would have a hard time scouting as well if zergs exploited this timing gap of corsair coming out too late to scout hydra bust and probe being denied. Even if you send out a 2nd probe before your 1st one dies, it is up to the zerg to not play poorly and have great map control with his lings that even if your probe was trying to be sneaky and come in at a weird angle, if zerg was on top of his zerglings to box your probe out from scouting, his speedlings would easily deny subsequent probe scouts.
So if zerg mastered this skill of boxing out your probe scouts with great map control with speedlings, it then becomes a lose-lose situation for protoss unless they come up with a new build to counteract this type of play. But then again protoss can't really exploit any weakness of zerg since they defend much easier in all stages of the game, zerglings spawn pretty quickly so as long as zerg micros his drones to stay alive, his lings will come in to defend properly in time just the fact that protoss can't manuever around as quickly, and until protoss has splash damage in the equation they can't trade efficiently either.
Anyone have any suggestions or ideas of how protoss can exploit or punish this type of play where you have speedling map control?
I'd imagine perhaps protoss could try to do early pressure with 2 gateways after FE, and use that to gain intel while pressuring. But when zerg can just get zerglings for much cheaper and trade more efficiently bc there is usually a greater ceiling on micro control of what you can accomplish with faster units than with slower atking and slow moving units, it still seems bleak options for protoss in this match up. The only reason it seems that protoss kills zerglings is due to less than optimal play from the zerg and it is their game to lose rather than of equal skill.
You can see how protoss has to hug the mineral line to reduce the surface area so that his zealots still pressure zergs natural expansion, and forces him to make more lings in case of more zealot pressure, but forcing zerg to make lings rather than drones is helpful but still puts protoss behind in army, which then can let zerg drone up again to minimize that early economic disadvantage.
The way I see it is if Zerg plays perfectly then Protoss of equal skill will lose more often than not.
In PvT, terran actually has defenses that work for a lot of different types of protoss builds. Turrets pretty much can help curb any type of reaver or dt play. Doesn't matter which one it is,the turrets are both detectors and box out areas where shuttles can roam. So I don't think comparing TvP struggles of Protoss's variety of builds actually compares to Protoss's struggle against zerg's variety of builds. Because each variety of zerg builds requires a completely different response, because if its fast mutas, you can't just cannon up at the natural, you need some at the main, and you need fast corsairs. If it's hydra bust you need cannons first at the natural and then a corsair later to scout. With TvP terran just needs turrets to stay safe from all types of aggressive strategies. Not saying the builds require the same exact response from Terran in a TvP, but the fact that they don't require a different tech tree branch for investment makes it easier to handle all types of builds.
And the ZvT comparison I agree that one critical mistake can cost you the game as zerg like how JD put one too many lurkers at his third, while neglecting his natural. But that's a more controlled variable of the player's skill, rather than luck or due to the game mechanics/limitations. Protoss limitations of scouting in PvZ is probe, corsair or zealot pressure. Corsair is too late for hydra bust, so that leaves just zealots and probes, both are can be addressed by zerg just making sure to stay on top of his lings whether he needs to make more to zone out probes or surround and kill zealots and put protoss behind in army making them slower to push out later.
theres a huge timing window difference between muta and hydra though, you can safely rule one or the other out before wasting cannons all over the place. if zerg opens with something like a 9p speed hes setting himself way behind unless he does something cheesy, and you should scout that he went 9p speed before the speed kicks in and kills your probe, thus giving you all the inclination necessary to send out a second probe and hide it somewhere before you even lose the first one.
On September 01 2018 04:45 Dazed. wrote: theres a huge timing window difference between muta and hydra though, you can safely rule one or the other out before wasting cannons all over the place. if zerg opens with something like a 9p speed hes setting himself way behind unless he does something cheesy, and you should scout that he went 9p speed before the speed kicks in and kills your probe, thus giving you all the inclination necessary to send out a second probe and hide it somewhere before you even lose the first one.
Yeah I know that 9 pool speed is a costly investment for early economy for zerg, but the fact remains that unless zerg plays poorly and lets your subsequent probes come in for a scout, it was actually their game to lose rather than a player outplaying them from equal skill. If you hide your 2nd probe, a zerg playing optimally should realize this that you may have sent another probe out before your 1st one died, which should be common sense for progamers. So all they have to do is make more lings and zone out your probe before it gets a chance to see the natural. All zerg has to do is keep some lings close by to the natural and snipe probes from getting a peak.
Now you might say well if protoss sees zerg investing in more lings he should see that as a sign of something coming and invest in more cannons, and that is true, but to what extent does protoss need? If it's just speedlings, and zerg macros up from there, while protoss just blindly builds cannons for a hydra bust that doesn't come, then the game will normalize again only the zerg's economy will flourish faster, since protoss moving out timing is slowed down considerably as well.
Maybe i'm wrong though and maybe zerg's economy won't be as good as I think and that the early pressure of speedlings does put zerg further behind than what I'm thinking. I just need to see the numbers I guess of what actually is invested and what can be accomplished.
The timing for 2 hatch muta play vs hydra bust is actually pretty similar, relative to how fast you can scout with your corsair. So in the assumption that you either play blind cannons at natural due to optimal play by the zerg to zone out your probe scouts and wait for your 1st corsair. These are the scenarios I have.
Usually 2 hatch muta, mutas come flying in at protoss base around 6:15, depending on map positions. For hydra bust play, usually hydras come knocking in at 5:30-5:45. So even though the timing can be 45 seconds apart, relative to what your corsair can scout in that timing window, the margin of error is not forgiving at all. So if you assume hydra bust and it's 2 base muta, you wasted all your economy at the time for the natural defense so by the time your corsair is finished you'd scout he went muta, and then try to cannon asap at your main, but then it may be too late. There would be a lot of variables to consider like what opening did zerg and protoss start with, so I can't say protoss won't be able to defend it, but it's pretty close. Now if you think it's muta play but it's hydras then you're in an even worse position and you just outright lose.
The margin of error for Protoss is in PvZ is slim in regards to early game. In ZvT, the margin or error I noticed has gotten wider when zergs started being able to defend their thirds a lot more consistently. So I'm open to seeing if Protoss can do the same, if there is a way for Protoss to increase their skill ceiling to match what Zerg can exploit regarding the early speedling zoning out probes.
Oh, such sweet games from maboy JD. Was afraid Rain would overwhelm him in some nerve wrecking 4-3 fashion but no. Such a nice day to witness JD showing off his ZvP skill.
Equal skill is a nebulous and self serving concept, between knowledge, mechanics and emotion it is very difficult to determine if someone is of "equal" skill.
As to 9 pool speed: Theres a reason its not a standard opening, it puts you very behind if you dont do damage. If the zerg is intending to use it for a run by, he will definitely produce 6+ lings which your probe will scout, he will likely hug outside your natural while he waits for speed/the right amount of lings, then its go time. But if you scouted him on time your 2nd probe should already be escaped before he can kill your first and set his lings up. If he hangs his lings back by his natural at the very least you can get a probe out to confirm he doesnt have a third, if he doesnt have a third you know your being all ined and can safely add a cannon, check his ling count. If theres a low amount you can push with zealots and it will screw up all his timings, if he has a decent amount of lings its almost certainly not mutalisk. The reality is its not bad play by zerg if protoss manages to get by their natural, its not easy to do but its not impossible either. You just have to learn the timings in a precise manner.
If 9 pool were so simple to abuse it would still be the standard, but it hasnt been since 2007.
Even if you don't agree as to what standards to judge players in terms of skill, you can still point out the vast differences of risk/rewards in each match up. Zerg doesn't take much risk in 9pool openings (it's not an all in type of strategy but can easily transition to mid to late game without suffering much disadvantage) but can reap disproportionate rewards. 9 pool gas is a pretty standard opening, I don't know why you would think it hasn't been a standard opening, but it is. It's not an economical standard opening but it's an aggressive standard opening.
There are also multitude of locations of where zerg can expand to his 3rd, so just saying your 2nd probe can scout a 3rd location is pretty hopeful and dependent on luck and what happens in context of the opening, plus zerg often still gets his 3rd base and may still do the hydra bust strategy so scouting a 3rd doesn't rule that out anyways. If you scout using your 2nd probe to scout the 3rd base to see whats popping out of there to see the hydras, speedlings will catch it very quickly and then you'll have to send out a 3rd probe to hope the speedlings are occupied enough to not catch your subsequent probes. I've been in the same situation where I sent multiple probes out at the same time hoping at least one probe would make it to his base, but since speedlings are so fast, if I had to spread out the probes to hope to put some distance between my probes to force lings to choose to chase 1 or the other because otherwise the speedlings would just eat all of them for breakfast even quicker if you send them even remotely close together, my probe still has to go a round about way to reach the zerg's base at which point the 1st few probes are already killed and then by the time I'm going around to reach his natural my last probe gets scouted and killed.
But an optimal zerg would catch the probes before they have a chance to see anything decent if zerg was committed in zoning out the probe and practiced that style of play.
So it's very dependent on a multitude of factors. If zerg is competent and playing optimally, he will zone your probe from seeing anything meaningful in order to rule out any strategies. If you even manage to scout and get lucky to get past his speedlings, you have to hope you saw his hydras pop out of the eggs at the right time before his speedlings catch up to your probe and kill it. The hydra den would likely be in the main so a competent zerg would put a drone at the ramp to block your probe until speedlings catch it. If you aim to scout in at around the 5 minute mark to see if any hydras are made at all and want to come in at a time that they are most likely to have hydras out by that time if you're ascertaining if he is going hydra bust, your probe would have to hope it found a good hiding spot until the right moment or that zerg wasn't thorough enough to see it.
To be fair, I'd say though if I saw a lot of speedlings invested to catching multiple probe scouts, I'd invest in 2 more cannons just to be safe because I'm not going to be behind a zerg who invested in speedlings and the amount of larvae committed to early lings. So it may balance out, so then the 1st 3 cannons may buy enough time for the subsequent cannons to warp in by the time you realize the hydra bust is on. I'd like to hear more opinions on this.
On August 31 2018 17:09 reincremate wrote: On a side note, I'm curious as to when was the last time a cannon rush was executed in a broadcasted PvZ. Maybe someone with more game knowledge/memory can find that?
I think it was free vs EffOrt on Circuit Breaker, in SSL Classic final. EffOrt easily drone drilled vs it tho.
Most recent one I can remember is Bisu v Larva in Game 1 of ASL4 3rd place match:+ Show Spoiler +
On August 31 2018 16:47 Moopower wrote: In the 1st game with the hydra bust after the early ling pressure, how is a protoss expected to defend successfully to where he is at least even or ahead of the zerg who is doing an all in type of strategy if he has speedling map control to where your probes cant even scout?
If you make cannons blind, zerg can just switch to economy, or if zerg didn't even go for hydra bust, you're even further behind for investing in cannons early to avoid an autoloss if you didn't have defense for a hydra bust.
One thing I have noticed that could've put Rain in a better situation was to probe block his choke if he was heading out with his zealots. If the early speedlings didn't go in to snipe the cannons he would've been able to defend the hydras more efficiently than at the last moment. But then again the speedlings I feel were such large in numbers that they could've just killed those 4 zealots easily without gaining much intel, and trading inefficiently with speedlings = toss even further behind.
I feel zerg has too many options and not enough things to punish them, while toss if they make one critical mistake, they lose the game.
This has been discussed at great length innumerable times before, but keeping your initial scouting probe alive for as long as possible is really important, and sometimes so is sending out a second probe early on the map. But yeah, PvZ can be unforgivingly brutal, as after denying scouting, Zerg has a ton of options for early all-ins, like 3 hatch hydra, 4 hatch hydra, 2 hatch hydra, mass speedlings, fast mutas, etc while P can only FE or maybe do some quirky 1 gate stargate build, with the only really viable cheese being double proxy gate, hence the slight Z > P > T > Z balance tilt.
On a side note, I'm curious as to when was the last time a cannon rush was executed in a broadcasted PvZ. Maybe someone with more game knowledge/memory can find that?
4 hatch is not all in.
Ah okay, my bad. I only remembered from my admittedly limited knowledge from back in the day that 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch was the standard and that there were various other options for ZvP.
EPT
2018 Korea StarCraft League Season 1![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/flags2/us.png)
(Tasteless and Artosis)![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/flags2/kr.png)
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(NarutO and TakeTV)![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/flags2/pl.png)
(EmSc TV)![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/697.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/211.jpg)
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