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On April 25 2018 08:26 ShowTheLights wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2018 08:04 Alpha-NP- wrote:
A lot of people hate the map Sparkle because it is different and slower paced. But island maps are epic. It's like everyone downvoted that game 3 was bad on Sparkle just because it was an island map. It was actually a cool good game.
Wrong. Absolutely wrong. People hate Sparkle because it is IMBALANCED. It gives a CLEAR advantage to one race. Nobody cares if it is a slower paced or different strats come out, that is fine.
The ELO adjusted win rate for Terran vs Zerg on sparkle in 36%.
The ELO adjusted win rate for Zerg vs Terran on Third World is 38.8%
One of these maps was played twice (it wasn't sparkle)
![[image loading]](https://puu.sh/A9YWL/b2f7961a60.png)
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I feel like the near insta-GG by Mind on Sparkle when Hero showed the sky zerg with drops, makes it pretty clear just how boring that map is. Mind barely fought back on sparkle. On Third World, he fought like a madman even though at times he was behind. There is a reason why Sparkle will not be in the next ASL. thank goodness.
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On April 25 2018 16:08 Golgotha wrote:
I feel like the near insta-GG by Mind on Sparkle when Hero showed the sky zerg with drops, makes it pretty clear just how boring that map is. Mind barely fought back on sparkle. On Third World, he fought like a madman even though at times he was behind. There is a reason why Sparkle will not be in the next ASL. thank goodness.
They should make island maps imho, but with more focus on aggression, maybe with low amounts gas on geysers or minerals, while allowing Z a fighting chance.
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On April 25 2018 09:53 Xxio wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2018 08:26 ShowTheLights wrote:On April 25 2018 08:04 Alpha-NP- wrote:
A lot of people hate the map Sparkle because it is different and slower paced. But island maps are epic. It's like everyone downvoted that game 3 was bad on Sparkle just because it was an island map. It was actually a cool good game.
Wrong. Absolutely wrong. People hate Sparkle because it is IMBALANCED. It gives a CLEAR advantage to one race. Nobody cares if it is a slower paced or different strats come out, that is fine. Not according to Flash. Maybe he was bluffing, but he said that he's so confident on Sparkle that he's moved on to preparing for other maps.
He’s so confident Sparkle is hopeless that there’s no point wasting time practicing on it! 
I have read that he seems to be having a hard time with Third World
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On April 25 2018 05:08 Peeano wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2018 04:58 Qikz wrote:On April 24 2018 21:40 Peeano wrote: Third World Transistor Sparkle Gladiator Third World Wasn't looking for a translation. I'm looking to copy/paste the Korean text
제3세계
트랜지스터
스파클
글래디에이터
제3세계
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On April 25 2018 15:48 xccam wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2018 08:26 ShowTheLights wrote:On April 25 2018 08:04 Alpha-NP- wrote:
A lot of people hate the map Sparkle because it is different and slower paced. But island maps are epic. It's like everyone downvoted that game 3 was bad on Sparkle just because it was an island map. It was actually a cool good game.
Wrong. Absolutely wrong. People hate Sparkle because it is IMBALANCED. It gives a CLEAR advantage to one race. Nobody cares if it is a slower paced or different strats come out, that is fine. The ELO adjusted win rate for Terran vs Zerg on sparkle in 36%. The ELO adjusted win rate for Zerg vs Terran on Third World is 38.8% One of these maps was played twice (it wasn't sparkle)
I'll do something a little less technical!
Bonjwa count: Terran (4) Zerg (1) Protoss (0)
People are all up in arms about Terran being screwed in terms of maps, but they have become desensitized to the fact that in the hands of the best players their race has the cards inherently stacked in their favor.
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On April 25 2018 21:05 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2018 15:48 xccam wrote:On April 25 2018 08:26 ShowTheLights wrote:On April 25 2018 08:04 Alpha-NP- wrote:
A lot of people hate the map Sparkle because it is different and slower paced. But island maps are epic. It's like everyone downvoted that game 3 was bad on Sparkle just because it was an island map. It was actually a cool good game.
Wrong. Absolutely wrong. People hate Sparkle because it is IMBALANCED. It gives a CLEAR advantage to one race. Nobody cares if it is a slower paced or different strats come out, that is fine. The ELO adjusted win rate for Terran vs Zerg on sparkle in 36%. The ELO adjusted win rate for Zerg vs Terran on Third World is 38.8% One of these maps was played twice (it wasn't sparkle) I'll do something a little less technical! Bonjwa count: Terran (4) Zerg (1) Protoss (0) People are all up in arms about Terran being screwed in terms of maps, but they have become desensitized to the fact that in the hands of the best players their race has the cards inherently stacked in their favor.
Terrans just aren't used to fight the uphill battle! lol
There is probably some truth to that statement though.
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Given the map pool, I was expected Mind to lose 1-3 or 0-3, but I am glad he performed better than that. I feel like he would have had a better chance to win game 3 and 5 if he had added on a couple of valkyries, or had completely gone mass valkyries.
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wow what a fantastic first game, this series are gonna be awesome.
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Was really hoping for that Shuttle vs Mind Semi's... :-( But overall a great series, apart from what I feel is too much reliance on Wraith play (games 3,5). Would have loved too see more of Minds strong dropships/SK-style throughout the whole series. But GG's
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Mind play was mostly outstanding, he lost because of the maps.
Free game for Hero on sparkle for 3-2 result.
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On April 25 2018 21:05 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2018 15:48 xccam wrote:On April 25 2018 08:26 ShowTheLights wrote:On April 25 2018 08:04 Alpha-NP- wrote:
A lot of people hate the map Sparkle because it is different and slower paced. But island maps are epic. It's like everyone downvoted that game 3 was bad on Sparkle just because it was an island map. It was actually a cool good game.
Wrong. Absolutely wrong. People hate Sparkle because it is IMBALANCED. It gives a CLEAR advantage to one race. Nobody cares if it is a slower paced or different strats come out, that is fine. The ELO adjusted win rate for Terran vs Zerg on sparkle in 36%. The ELO adjusted win rate for Zerg vs Terran on Third World is 38.8% One of these maps was played twice (it wasn't sparkle) I'll do something a little less technical! Bonjwa count: Terran (4) Zerg (1) Protoss (0) People are all up in arms about Terran being screwed in terms of maps, but they have become desensitized to the fact that in the hands of the best players their race has the cards inherently stacked in their favor.
We have no idea about this. It's quite possible that Flash et. al. were just the best players period, and would have dominated equally with another race.
What you said is inherently an opinion, but you stated it as fact.
On April 25 2018 16:08 Golgotha wrote:
I feel like the near insta-GG by Mind on Sparkle when Hero showed the sky zerg with drops, makes it pretty clear just how boring that map is. Mind barely fought back on sparkle. On Third World, he fought like a madman even though at times he was behind. There is a reason why Sparkle will not be in the next ASL. thank goodness.
I haven't found Sparkle to be boring at all. It's been fascinating watching players try all kinds of different concepts out on the map, searching for effective ideas. We've seen at least 3-4 different paradigms per matchup being tried in most match ups, which is something that hasn't happened since likely the first couple years of BW.
In other ways it does limit options, so I certainly wouldn't want maps like Sparkle to be a routine fixture, and certainly shouldn't be more than one game out of any series, but in terms of concept I think it's an excellent step in the right direction of variety. We're pretty good about FS/CB maps play out, throwing in new concepts is excellent and keeps things interesting on all sides.
This isn't directed at you Golgotha, but in general, all the Sparkle imbalance talk is just silly in my opinion. We've been playing this map for what, maybe 2 or 3 months max? ZvT and PvZ spent years stuck in some painfully difficult ruts. It took zerg at least a year or more to start to have reasonable success against late mech switch. To have a couple hundred games played on a map that is an entirely different paradigm and start going "This map is so imbalanced" makes me want to roll me eyes...especially when FlaSh is confidently saying he has solid ideas for the map and believes it's not an issue.
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On April 27 2018 00:08 _Animus_ wrote:
Mind play was mostly outstanding, he lost because of the maps.
Free game for Hero on sparkle for 3-2 result.
And two wins on a map where mind had (correct me if I'm wrong) a 90%record in spon matches and zerg has a 38% Elo adjusted win rate.
It happened when hero reached the finals last season, people talking hero down and how he didn't deserve it.
Hero is criminally under appreciated on this forum.
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On April 27 2018 02:31 xccam wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2018 00:08 _Animus_ wrote:
Mind play was mostly outstanding, he lost because of the maps.
Free game for Hero on sparkle for 3-2 result. And two wins on a map where mind had (correct me if I'm wrong) a 90%record in spon matches and zerg has a 38% Elo adjusted win rate. It happened when hero reached the finals last season, people talking hero down and how he didn't deserve it. Hero is criminally under appreciated on this forum.
I'm not a big fan of hero but he was the better player here. Mind played good but not outstanding. Losing so many vessels in game 1 is not acceptable on that level and he deserved to lose because of that for example.
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On April 25 2018 11:33 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2018 08:26 ShowTheLights wrote:On April 25 2018 08:04 Alpha-NP- wrote:
A lot of people hate the map Sparkle because it is different and slower paced. But island maps are epic. It's like everyone downvoted that game 3 was bad on Sparkle just because it was an island map. It was actually a cool good game.
Wrong. Absolutely wrong. People hate Sparkle because it is IMBALANCED. It gives a CLEAR advantage to one race. Nobody cares if it is a slower paced or different strats come out, that is fine. Are you kidding me? Just because terrans seem to be incapable of adapting to an island map doesn't mean it's imbalanced. It's way too early to say anything about balance because it still needs to be figured out. The biggest problem right now is that terrans refuse to play the economic game on a map that prevents early harass. I mean, terrans love to go Rax-CC or 14CC on normal maps but here they go 2 port wraith before CC which does absolutely nothing because the zerg has already defense up by the time the wraiths come out. Take the game in this series for example. 2 port wraith, didn't do any damage. The only advantage had was map control. What would you normally do when you have map control and the opponent has no way of attacking you? Expanding. When did he start his third? At 11.30. Really? He started his third when Hero was finally starting to build up a force to regain some of that map control. Then Mind started mass-expanding. It was already too late at that point, sorry. You don't go 2 port on a normal map and let the zerg get away with 3 bases without taking damage and still expect to win the game. Why would you expect a win on Sparkle? .
Marines are good because they can slow or prevent a 3rd gas. Sparkles main has 3 has for z. Defilers prevent terran from expanding and defending. It's best for t to do something early to try and get an edge. It's not very effective however, thus the low win rate.
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I was really impressed by both players in this series. Overall I was cheering for Hero, and I'm pleased he did so well. I am a little confused about what Mind was supposed to do on Sparkle, but the other games were extremely competitive, with great moves on both sides. Games 1 and 5 were my favorites. I used to really like games on Outsider, and now I've been enjoying matches on Gold Rush and Third World, so I would have to say that semi-island maps are the best
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On April 27 2018 02:31 xccam wrote:
Hero is criminally under appreciated on this forum.
Kind of seems like it. He's been doing some brilliant stuff. In the finals against Flash where he lost 1-3, his one victory was a comeback against late mech that looked completely impossible until he did it. I didn't think anything of him in the KeSPA era, but he's won me over.
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On April 27 2018 13:21 portaljester wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2018 11:33 Miragee wrote:On April 25 2018 08:26 ShowTheLights wrote:On April 25 2018 08:04 Alpha-NP- wrote:
A lot of people hate the map Sparkle because it is different and slower paced. But island maps are epic. It's like everyone downvoted that game 3 was bad on Sparkle just because it was an island map. It was actually a cool good game.
Wrong. Absolutely wrong. People hate Sparkle because it is IMBALANCED. It gives a CLEAR advantage to one race. Nobody cares if it is a slower paced or different strats come out, that is fine. Are you kidding me? Just because terrans seem to be incapable of adapting to an island map doesn't mean it's imbalanced. It's way too early to say anything about balance because it still needs to be figured out. The biggest problem right now is that terrans refuse to play the economic game on a map that prevents early harass. I mean, terrans love to go Rax-CC or 14CC on normal maps but here they go 2 port wraith before CC which does absolutely nothing because the zerg has already defense up by the time the wraiths come out. Take the game in this series for example. 2 port wraith, didn't do any damage. The only advantage had was map control. What would you normally do when you have map control and the opponent has no way of attacking you? Expanding. When did he start his third? At 11.30. Really? He started his third when Hero was finally starting to build up a force to regain some of that map control. Then Mind started mass-expanding. It was already too late at that point, sorry. You don't go 2 port on a normal map and let the zerg get away with 3 bases without taking damage and still expect to win the game. Why would you expect a win on Sparkle? . Marines are good because they can slow or prevent a 3rd gas. Sparkles main has 3 has for z. Defilers prevent terran from expanding and defending. It's best for t to do something early to try and get an edge. It's not very effective however, thus the low win rate.
You realise how late zergs go defiler on sparkle, right? Enough time to get 3-4 bases up. And it's not best to try to get an early edge if it doesn't work. Protoss expands on Sparkle as crazy as zerg. I don't get why terran can't if they are the only race that doesn't even have to get drops to expand to other islands. Zergs are not on the map until mutas come out, which is definitely not before the 6-7 minute mark. You could probably go double CC before rax. At least it's worth a try.
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Mind threw the first game away. He had it in the bag after killing the third, and having the natural on low hp. Somehow he managed to throw that game and it costed him the overall victory basically.
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On April 27 2018 01:54 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2018 21:05 mierin wrote:On April 25 2018 15:48 xccam wrote:On April 25 2018 08:26 ShowTheLights wrote:On April 25 2018 08:04 Alpha-NP- wrote:
A lot of people hate the map Sparkle because it is different and slower paced. But island maps are epic. It's like everyone downvoted that game 3 was bad on Sparkle just because it was an island map. It was actually a cool good game.
Wrong. Absolutely wrong. People hate Sparkle because it is IMBALANCED. It gives a CLEAR advantage to one race. Nobody cares if it is a slower paced or different strats come out, that is fine. The ELO adjusted win rate for Terran vs Zerg on sparkle in 36%. The ELO adjusted win rate for Zerg vs Terran on Third World is 38.8% One of these maps was played twice (it wasn't sparkle) I'll do something a little less technical! Bonjwa count: Terran (4) Zerg (1) Protoss (0) People are all up in arms about Terran being screwed in terms of maps, but they have become desensitized to the fact that in the hands of the best players their race has the cards inherently stacked in their favor. We have no idea about this. It's quite possible that Flash et. al. were just the best players period, and would have dominated equally with another race. What you said is inherently an opinion, but you stated it as fact.
We have no scientific idea, but would you really claim that it's likely that the best Terran players are so much better than their counterparts of other races? While possible it seems very statistically unlikely given a "balanced" game. Especially over multiple epochs, and actually literally every epoch of the game.
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EPT
