EPT
[ASL5] Ro8 hero vs Mind
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BLinD-RawR
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Incomplete..ReV
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Jackal03
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I think hero got this, but I'll cheer for mind | ||
BigFan
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Peeano
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On April 24 2018 19:19 BigFan wrote: Anyone else think mind will lose this? Me. Hero fighting! | ||
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Peeano
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https://i.imgur.com/ZCQyMPs.png | ||
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coolprogrammingstuff
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On April 24 2018 19:19 BigFan wrote: Anyone else think mind will lose this? me | ||
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I'm glad that we have a good TvZ after a terrible PvP series | ||
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juvenal
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Jackal03
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On April 24 2018 19:33 juvenal wrote: Wtf, firebats in bunkers do not damage burrowed lurkers under swarm? the splash is smaller then the max attack range, the lurker was at the point of the attack, no damage of ranged attack on dark swarm (only splash) | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
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 Even if he loses this game. | ||
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juvenal
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On April 24 2018 19:34 Jackal03 wrote: the splash is smaller then the max attack range, the lurker was at the point of the attack, no damage of ranged attack on dark swarm (only splash) ha! Never knew that. Thanks! | ||
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Motivate
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TheFoReveRwaR
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On April 24 2018 19:40 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I'm kinda confused about the lurker under dark swarm being attacked by firebat. It appeared to still take damage, but only on every 4th attack. Firebats do splash + concussive under dark swarm. Lurkers are heavy armor though. So concussive does significantly reduced damage. | ||
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Jackal03
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juvenal
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On April 24 2018 19:40 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I'm kinda confused about the lurker under dark swarm being attacked by firebat. It appeared to still take damage, but only on every 4th attack. it took damage from the one firebat that wasn't in the bunker. | ||
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prosatan
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Dangermousecatdog
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On April 24 2018 19:42 juvenal wrote: it took damage from the one firebat that wasn't in the bunker. Thanks. That makes more sense that the other guy. | ||
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Jackal03
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Dante08
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Valiant attempt by Mind though. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
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On April 24 2018 19:46 Motivate wrote: this map is kind of lame... even as a zerg player it seems a bit bullshit Well they're trying to kill flash remember | ||
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Motivate
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On April 24 2018 19:46 Dante08 wrote: Ladies and gentlemen this is why you need to go mech vs zerg. Ultras and defilers destroy bio. Valiant attempt by Mind though. i think you'd have to be crazy to go SK terran on a map like this so delicious for ultras | ||
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Terrorbladder
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On April 24 2018 19:46 Dante08 wrote: Go mech vs Zerg on a good air map and Terran can only secure at most 1 ground-defendable expansions??????Ladies and gentlemen this is why you need to go mech vs zerg. Ultras and defilers destroy bio. Valiant attempt by Mind though. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
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TheFoReveRwaR
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On April 24 2018 19:48 Terrorbladder wrote: Go mech vs Zerg on a good air map and Terran can only secure at most 1 ground-defendable expansions?????? Well you need to keep your vessels alive. If you're not going mech your vessels need to grow in numbers and steam roll the defiler count. | ||
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phosphorylation
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Terrorbladder
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On April 24 2018 19:48 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: yeah but he never got a good grip on his economy despite god tier drops and eraser kills, probably had 50+ drone kills in supply the whole gameWell you need to keep your vessels alive. If you're not going mech your vessels need to grow in numbers and steam roll the defiler count. - did not kill the natural hatchery, instead target fired sunken with tanks - did not clear bottom right after he pushed back the first lurker+defiler attack | ||
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Wonk
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Terrorbladder
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On April 24 2018 19:50 Ty2 wrote: how about being able to keep expanding and nydusing everywhereInsane game 1. I have no idea how hero brought it back after losing his third and bottom right. | ||
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phosphorylation
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i think that would have been very effective | ||
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HolydaKing
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Motivate
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On April 24 2018 19:50 Ty2 wrote: Insane game 1. I have no idea how hero brought it back after losing his third and bottom right. zerg can expand onto the island with much more reliable production than terran terran can only easily secure one expo | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
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On April 24 2018 19:50 Motivate wrote: that was so painful to watch... i guess mind lost too many vessels. never thought i'd root for a terran. Try to give hero some credit. He out played mind. He did more things than mind could keep up with but mind played well with the time he had. He was just slower. Which is why I think hero will almost definitely take this series. You heard it here first  (actually i said it earlier but still) | ||
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BigFan
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 On April 24 2018 19:50 Ty2 wrote: Insane game 1. I have no idea how hero brought it back after losing his third and bottom right. He was floating close to 1.2k minerals so he just remade everything. | ||
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Uldridge
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Skeny
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[sc1f]eonzerg
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On April 24 2018 19:50 phosphorylation wrote: Really great game. Love how Mind almost beat Hero as terran with low 200 APM. in 1.16 Mind had 200 apm 198-200 eapm,so he is proly the most efective actions user,for example effort was something like 420 apm 180-190 eapm. with remastered there is not a tool to check eapm anymore sadly | ||
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Motivate
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On April 24 2018 19:53 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Try to give hero some credit. He out played mind. He did more things than mind could keep up with but mind played well with the time he had. He was just slower. Which is why I think hero will almost definitely take this series. You heard it here first (actually i said it earlier but still)haha guess i've never really liked hero's playstyle.. so passive and macro focused. but agreed he played the map perfectly. | ||
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phosphorylation
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TheFoReveRwaR
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Yes I said it. | ||
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Terrorbladder
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bovienchien
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On April 24 2018 19:52 phosphorylation wrote: a sieged tank in the main base to protect that third ? i think that would have been very effective this game will take so much time more and then result still doesn't change. Terran can't win only with four bases vs Zerg take eight bases. | ||
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HolydaKing
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On April 24 2018 19:56 bovienchien wrote: this game will take so much time more and then result still doesn't change. Terran can't win only with four bases vs Zerg take eight bases. To be fair, most of the later game, T was on one (running) base and Z on two (which weren't completely saturated). | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
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I keep it vague because hes basically grown as a player where he will just adapt on the fly. | ||
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Motivate
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TheFoReveRwaR
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On April 24 2018 19:54 Motivate wrote: haha guess i've never really liked hero's playstyle.. so passive and macro focused. but agreed he played the map perfectly. Well I'll have to point out heros skill at zvz. I mean the stats show that. He has the micro But I understand what you're saying.I mean im just a B- iccup player back in the day playing on korean times. But I can tell you thats absolutely the way to win vs Terran lol. Save your units, let terran come to you and make the mistakes. Use your scourge. Win. Thats how you do it. | ||
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Dante08
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On April 24 2018 19:48 Terrorbladder wrote: Go mech vs Zerg on a good air map and Terran can only secure at most 1 ground-defendable expansions?????? Well yeah I guess going mech is pretty hard on this map. | ||
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BlackJack
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TheFoReveRwaR
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On April 24 2018 20:02 BlackJack wrote: That game was so freaking scrappy. Imagine playing that game from herO's point of view. Just non-stop drops everywhere, tank drops on ledge, eraser on workers, nyduses sniped, wraith harass, constantly losing bases and workers and having to rebuild. I don't even play zerg and I have nightmares about having to deal with that shit. Exactly, and the fact he won just shows hes just in better shape. Faster, stronger. I feel bad for mind honestly. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
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Vessel should save energy for the first defiler if possible. | ||
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bovienchien
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razorsuKe
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Motivate
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Ty2
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On April 24 2018 19:53 BigFan wrote: Freaking Third World. Mind was playing out of his mind there till the last bit He was floating close to 1.2k minerals so he just remade everything. That's true he can remake everything but I would be hesitant to say why Mind lost is that simple. For the time Hero didn't have a third was time drones weren't mining from that third, and more importantly, mining a third gas. The minerals spent on remaking the bases is also money that could've been spent on other things whilst Mind's "equivalence" in resources didn't have him remaking things. I think what really did Mind in was losing the science vessels which lost all of his mid game and late game agency besides drops. edit: Although I guess it'd be considered evened up resource wise Hero had that significant of an advantage but I really think it was neck and neck up until losing both bases. | ||
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Dante08
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On April 24 2018 20:13 HolydaKing wrote: that map seemed really good for terran, am I wrong? I think if Hero blocks the first attack he would have been in much better shape. It really screwed his timing up and everything just snowballed from there. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
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On April 24 2018 20:14 Dangermousecatdog wrote: It's pretty good for muta harrass as well, but Mind basically ran into Z base at the right time and delayed the mutas. Thats what 5 rax into 2 port is meant to counter though | ||
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Motivate
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On April 24 2018 20:13 HolydaKing wrote: that map seemed really good for terran, am I wrong? just less zerg favoured than the other maps | ||
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Wonk
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On April 24 2018 20:12 Ty2 wrote: Freaking Transistor. Hero was playing out of his mind there till the last bit It is but you can't give it to the map, Mind played almost flawlessly there and hero made a lot of mistakes. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
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M2
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On April 24 2018 20:06 bovienchien wrote: I know that Sparkle and Gladiator which two maps were banned in the game 1 and game 5. But I don't know, Hero banned both 2 that maps or every gamers banned one map? each player bans one map not to be played twice. I would assume that mind banned sparkle and hero - gladiator | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
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On April 24 2018 20:15 Dante08 wrote: I think if Hero blocks the first attack he would have been in much better shape. It really screwed his timing up and everything just snowballed from there. It's still a good terran map regardless though. The third distance is actually shorter than most maps, and it has a much larger arch for drops. Especially if the drops are coming off aggressive mnm movements so they can come in at different angles. Hard to cover them all. That being said like many games, if you stop the first move you can probably be ready to stop the rest. Thats why brood war is so hard. Or else the very top players would be 90% win instead of 70% | ||
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BigFan
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On April 24 2018 20:08 Ty2 wrote: That's true he can remake everything but I would be hesitant to say why Mind lost is that simple. For the time Hero didn't have a third was time drones weren't mining from that third, and more importantly, mining a third gas. The minerals spent on remaking the bases is also money that could've been spent on other things whilst Mind's "equivalence" in resources didn't have him remaking things. I think what really did Mind in was losing the science vessels which lost all of his mid game and late game agency besides drops. edit: Although I guess it'd be considered evened up resource wise Hero had that significant of an advantage but I really think it was neck and neck up until losing both bases. Well ya, it's never that simple lol but my point was that if hero wasn't floating that much, he would've lost since time is so important. Mind was constantly on the aggression and he was doing a fantastic job too. | ||
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Terrorbladder
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On April 24 2018 20:13 HolydaKing wrote: It's good for TvZ, since Zerg has no really easy defendable 3rdthat map seemed really good for terran, am I wrong? Not very good for TvP since 12 Nex is unblockable on that map. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
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On April 24 2018 20:18 Terrorbladder wrote: It's good for TvZ, since Zerg has no really easy defendable 3rd Not very good for TvP since 12 Nex is unblockable on that map. I disagree, I think its good for T. You can 1 rax cc or risk it and 14 cc, or 13 cc to be a lil safer. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
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Peeano
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I'm worried for herO. | ||
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M2
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On April 24 2018 20:18 Terrorbladder wrote: It's good for TvZ, since Zerg has no really easy defendable 3rd Not very good for TvP since 12 Nex is unblockable on that map. but there is a counter argument to that, both the mineral lines in main and expo are open to endless muta harass, which is pretty much zerg favorable | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
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Motivate
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On April 24 2018 20:19 Peeano wrote: I don't think I have seen Mind play this well 2 games back to back before. He looks well prepared and in good mental state. I'm worried for herO. i don't think terran can win on sparkle. even more disgusting than third world. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
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On April 24 2018 20:20 Motivate wrote: i don't think terran can win on sparkle. even more disgusting than third world. Correction, no terran but flash can win on sparkle;) Ill be honest though, I think sparkle will be flash's hardest challenge ever. However, just given flash's personality I feel like he will find the build he needs to find. | ||
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Motivate
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On April 24 2018 20:22 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Correction, no terran but flash can win on sparkle;) to be honest i never really watch terran streams... from what i've seen in the ASL i can't see anything that would work on sparkle | ||
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HolydaKing
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On April 24 2018 20:19 M2 wrote: but there is a counter argument to that, both the mineral lines in main and expo are open to endless muta harass, which is pretty much zerg favorable yes, if they are unscouted. mind built so many turrets that they were doing close to nothing. and scouting was pretty easy for mind, might be herO's fault though. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
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On April 24 2018 20:22 Motivate wrote: to be honest i never really watch terran streams... from what i've seen in the ASL i can't see anything that would work on sparkle I added more haha. I have to clarify , flash is very disadvantaged. I just feel like he will find the timings he needs to. | ||
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BigFan
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On April 24 2018 20:19 Peeano wrote: I don't think I have seen Mind play this well 2 games back to back before. He looks well prepared and in good mental state. I'm worried for herO. Ya, it's amazing. I can just feel it through his play. He's on top of his macro, decent micro, making good decisions etc... If he takes sparkle which is a dang rough map, I think he can win this. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
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TheFoReveRwaR
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On April 24 2018 20:25 BigFan wrote: Ya, it's amazing. I can just feel it through his play. He's on top of his macro, decent micro, making good decisions etc... If he takes sparkle which is a dang rough map, I think he can win this. He won't brother but good luck to you;) | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
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TheFoReveRwaR
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Lol ok no..hes not... | ||
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Jackal03
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On April 24 2018 20:29 Peeano wrote: Leta would have loved this map in 2010 yeah, it would be fun to watch | ||
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Dante08
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On April 24 2018 20:32 Motivate wrote: what just drop the terran straight and kill them.. why go back? Why take the risk if you can secure another main and get 6 gas | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
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On April 24 2018 20:32 Motivate wrote: what just drop the terran straight and kill them.. why go back? The same reason why Shuttle shouldnt have risked not going obs vs Rain when he was going Dt. Part of gaming theory is minimizing risk. | ||
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phosphorylation
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shame it didnt go on for longer | ||
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Motivate
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Golgotha
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TheFoReveRwaR
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TheFoReveRwaR
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User was warned for this post | ||
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HolydaKing
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On April 24 2018 20:39 phosphorylation wrote: such a unique game shame it didnt go on for longer i agree, but how it ended was pretty terrible. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
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Motivate
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Dante08
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On April 24 2018 20:40 Motivate wrote: absolutely disgusting map... how they thought it would be a good idea to give 3 gases should be fired I think 3 gas was to balance PvZ, while screwing Terran (Flash) in the process | ||
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Wonk
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I didn't like third world to begin with but we've had really intresting games on it. | ||
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Terrorbladder
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On April 24 2018 20:40 Motivate wrote: but then if Zerg did not have the free 3rd gas their winrate would plummet to 20%absolutely disgusting map... how they thought it would be a good idea to give 3 gases should be fired think of the poor poor Zergs | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
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They arent "safe" but they would win. Its fucking annoying that pro gamers cant adapt properly. I told you hero would win. And I basically told you how step by step. To be fair they are wayyyyy better than me. What they fail to understand is high risk game theory. Its better to take a specific risk than to play a losing map. Terran doesnt get it. Except light. He had a nice build but just didnt do it right. That was early on zvt on sparkle. I think people need to give it a chance. A lot of players are playing it bad... | ||
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BigFan
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razorsuKe
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On April 24 2018 20:37 Jackal03 wrote: This will be a long game in theory, yes :D | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
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TheFoReveRwaR
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On April 24 2018 20:40 HolydaKing wrote: i agree, but how it ended was pretty terrible. I do not understand...it was obvious for miles.... | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
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On April 24 2018 20:42 BigFan wrote: While I like the map concept, it's pretty brutal. Given, I feel like terran should really be dropping after getting a scouting wraith. You can probably find some timing where the zerg doesn't have a ton of units and win then. Plus, you can always switch back to making wraiths/vessels etc... We need to start thinking, whats the terran equiv. of the fast hydra drop with some muta. Terran needs to grow up..they havent yet. The type of build thats perfectly stream lined off 2 base. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
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TheFoReveRwaR
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On April 24 2018 20:44 Dangermousecatdog wrote: It's the eternal problem that we cannot ever know whether a matchup in a map has been "mapped out" unless it's been around for years. Hmmm well nothing is ever totally mapped out But young sir...its pretty much mapped out... Of course its not predictable. My point is you can make strong statistical predictions based on knowledge of the game and still be totally wrong. Just like sports bets. Even if you make strong predictions a player will always surprise you. Humans are SO COMPLEX. I feel i need to capitalize that so people understand how complicated brood war is. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
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TheFoReveRwaR
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On April 24 2018 20:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Please, just stop talking theforeverrwar. Just stop. you are being really really obnoxious. ----------- | ||
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BLinD-RawR
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phosphorylation
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Mind is so on point today , especially with dropships amazing with low 200s APM | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
On April 24 2018 21:04 phosphorylation wrote: the level of play today is really high. at least KESPA era level. Mind is so on point today , especially with dropships amazing with low 200s APM Im not sure of that, but certainly their level of play of really close to eachother so the games are decided on small decisions and advantages. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On April 24 2018 21:10 The_Red_Viper wrote: so should i root for hero because i like zerg or for mind because that means rain makes finals :D Root for your favourite player. I like both but I want Mind so go Mind. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On April 24 2018 21:11 BigFan wrote: Root for your favourite player. I like both but I want Mind so go Mind. so as he likes rain he should root for mind. :p | ||
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Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On April 24 2018 21:12 HolydaKing wrote: so as he likes rain he should root for mind. :p Yeah that's my position probably :D Though what i root for the most is a good last game ^^ | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On April 24 2018 21:15 Golgotha wrote: wow. flash is saying mind wins flash is saying flash would win from mind's position, I'd assume. looks very good regardless | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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reps)Plumbum
Russian Federation484 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On April 24 2018 21:22 reps)Plumbum wrote: So sad to see terrans being so imbalanced in this matchup. Blizzard please do something Bro...good terran crushes zerg. Flash wouldve won 100%. I promise you. | ||
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
yeah, just play like flash. hehelol | ||
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On April 24 2018 21:27 Jackal03 wrote: I find very hard for mind to turn it around he can't anymore, herO's eco is too big | ||
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b0lt
United States790 Posts
On April 24 2018 21:27 Breach_hu wrote: Why not valks? can't afford an armory | ||
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
On April 24 2018 21:27 Breach_hu wrote: Why not valks? no armory | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
Valks are for large scale battles. I dont know what nonsense people were talking about with valks. | ||
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VioleTAK
4280 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
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ilikeredheads
Canada1995 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Golgotha, please give us more of what Flash is saying. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49884 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On April 24 2018 21:29 Dante08 wrote: Mind another victim of collateral damage for the tournament makers trying to get rid of Flash Won't work though. | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21505 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
I mean common, this used to be a community of people who understood how games work. Now I get warning for saying rapid/noregrets commentary wasn't good. You're doing a great service to the community TL. Just like Activision... User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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RxMidnight
United States251 Posts
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Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
On April 24 2018 21:31 Motivate wrote: i hope hero wrecks rain All you need to do vs Rain is camp with lurkers and watch with great joy that he suicides over and over again. On April 24 2018 21:33 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Guys, why is starcraft 2 garbage included in brood war liquibet? How does that make sense? Tl ... have separate leagues. Oh you want to combine the communities? Oh i see. How about getting rid of sc2 .... Jesus, can you stop for a minute? | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On April 24 2018 21:33 Breach_hu wrote: All you need to do vs Rain is camp with lurkers and watch with great joy that he suicides over and over again. You're in luck, hero absolutely will Rain looked pretty shitty. Unless Rain improves a lot he will be absolutely crushed. | ||
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razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
With the series going to 5 games, then sweating for the entire last part of that match :o | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
On April 24 2018 19:21 Peeano wrote: Could someone get me the Korean map names in text? https://i.imgur.com/ZCQyMPs.png | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On April 24 2018 21:34 razorsuKe wrote: As a guy who had a lot of money on this match... that was intense AF With the series going to 5 games, then sweating for the entire last part of that match :o hahaha good job bro. good thing u picked hero | ||
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Brainojack
Canada195 Posts
I'll have to pretend i didn't see who it was. | ||
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oxKnu
1143 Posts
Amazing series. This ASL has been awesome. | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
Edit: Also, I noticed some weird comments about balance on 3rd World, here you can see the statistics for all 4 maps in sponmatches, Elo calculation included. Map order is Transistor - Gladiator - Sparkle - Third World | ||
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SJ158
Brazil24 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
On April 25 2018 03:10 ortseam wrote: Wow this series was amazing, both played extremely well, especially that first game on 3rd World. Hero vs Rain has the potential to be just as good, hope it delivers. Edit: Also, I noticed some weird comments about balance on 3rd World, here you can see the statistics for all 4 maps in sponmatches, Elo calculation included. Map order is Transistor - Gladiator - Sparkle - Third World HerO beat Mind 2-0 on 3rd World, a map with a 31% ZvT win rate in sponmatches, and people are calling Mind a victim of maps. This was a great series, and Hero was a deserved winner and a clear favourite to reach back to back finals in my opinion. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
Third World Transistor Sparkle Gladiator Third World | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
On April 25 2018 04:58 Qikz wrote: Third World Transistor Sparkle Gladiator Third World Wasn't looking for a translation. I'm looking to copy/paste the Korean text | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19205 Posts
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21505 Posts
On April 25 2018 05:48 mierin wrote: I know the map pool isn't great, but for people getting tired of Flash auto-winning every season it's nice to have a sliver of hope someone else will. Not that I think that'll happen though Flash should lose because someone else was better. Not because the tournament organizers literally stacked the deck against him. | ||
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1669 Posts
Fuck Sparkle man... (((((((((((oh well. gg | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1669 Posts
On April 25 2018 08:04 Alpha-NP- wrote: A lot of people hate the map Sparkle because it is different and slower paced. But island maps are epic. It's like everyone downvoted that game 3 was bad on Sparkle just because it was an island map. It was actually a cool good game. Wrong. Absolutely wrong. People hate Sparkle because it is IMBALANCED. It gives a CLEAR advantage to one race. Nobody cares if it is a slower paced or different strats come out, that is fine. | ||
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Brainojack
Canada195 Posts
On April 25 2018 08:26 ShowTheLights wrote: Wrong. Absolutely wrong. People hate Sparkle because it is IMBALANCED. It gives a CLEAR advantage to one race. Nobody cares if it is a slower paced or different strats come out, that is fine. Maybe Flash will off-race on sparkle, he did joke after ASL 4 that he may try another race than terran. Might be worth it on that one map | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1706 Posts
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Xxio
Canada5565 Posts
On April 25 2018 08:26 ShowTheLights wrote: Wrong. Absolutely wrong. People hate Sparkle because it is IMBALANCED. It gives a CLEAR advantage to one race. Nobody cares if it is a slower paced or different strats come out, that is fine. Not according to Flash. Maybe he was bluffing, but he said that he's so confident on Sparkle that he's moved on to preparing for other maps. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 25 2018 08:26 ShowTheLights wrote: Wrong. Absolutely wrong. People hate Sparkle because it is IMBALANCED. It gives a CLEAR advantage to one race. Nobody cares if it is a slower paced or different strats come out, that is fine. I'd say it's more because it produces boring games than anything else. I just skip those games. | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
On April 25 2018 05:54 Gorsameth wrote: Flash should lose because someone else was better. Not because the tournament organizers literally stacked the deck against him. I agree with this. ASL is meant to represent competitive Broodwar. I find stacking the maps like that very unprofessional by the organisers. | ||
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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Miragee
8469 Posts
On April 25 2018 08:26 ShowTheLights wrote: Wrong. Absolutely wrong. People hate Sparkle because it is IMBALANCED. It gives a CLEAR advantage to one race. Nobody cares if it is a slower paced or different strats come out, that is fine. Are you kidding me? Just because terrans seem to be incapable of adapting to an island map doesn't mean it's imbalanced. It's way too early to say anything about balance because it still needs to be figured out. The biggest problem right now is that terrans refuse to play the economic game on a map that prevents early harass. I mean, terrans love to go Rax-CC or 14CC on normal maps but here they go 2 port wraith before CC which does absolutely nothing because the zerg has already defense up by the time the wraiths come out. Take the game in this series for example. 2 port wraith, didn't do any damage. The only advantage had was map control. What would you normally do when you have map control and the opponent has no way of attacking you? Expanding. When did he start his third? At 11.30. Really? He started his third when Hero was finally starting to build up a force to regain some of that map control. Then Mind started mass-expanding. It was already too late at that point, sorry. You don't go 2 port on a normal map and let the zerg get away with 3 bases without taking damage and still expect to win the game. Why would you expect a win on Sparkle? To address the other games, I feel like they played on even footing. Game 1 should have been Mind's. He had a good timing, just 10 seconds too late. He played a good harass game and had Hero pinned against the wall. However, after he killed the third and fourth he decided it would be a good idea to sacrifice half his vessels to erase a handful of drones, which Hero didn't need in that moment. That and his general sloppiness regarding his vessels lost him the game. He never really got a fleet together to fight the defilers and ultras. Game 2 Mind basically won with the first push. He forced enough lings and sunkens (that did nothing) at the muta timing so Hero never had the chance to put on any pressure or take a third after. Game 4 was pretty well played by both. Not much to say, Mind just managed to overwhelm Hero before his economy really kicked in. Game 5 was weird. 2 port wraith again. I would have liked to see a repeat of Game 1 and with a stronger focus on saving vessels. It was nice to see the micro battles but Mind lost the game when he lost most of his wraith fleet when he moved out with his marines. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10335 Posts
On April 24 2018 20:35 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Trust me babies. Hero is doing what he needs to do. Step by step. On April 24 2018 20:38 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Muta + drop to the top left wins the game probably. On April 24 2018 20:39 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: It's coming babies. On April 24 2018 20:39 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Ok daddy knows his fuckin brood war On April 24 2018 20:39 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Everyone give me fuckin credit lol. On April 24 2018 20:40 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Nah its not great. I feel like people have been way un creative..typical korean. User was warned for this post On April 24 2018 21:23 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: PS newbs, hero won this game. On April 24 2018 21:33 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Guys, why is starcraft 2 garbage included in brood war liquibet? How does that make sense? Tl ... have separate leagues. Oh you want to combine the communities? Oh i see. How about getting rid of sc2 .... I mean common, this used to be a community of people who understood how games work. Now I get warning for saying rapid/noregrets commentary wasn't good. You're doing a great service to the community TL. Just like Activision... User was temp banned for this post. Hey bro, I can tell you are very excited about live Brood War and that's great, but I think you need to calm down and use this time to reflect on your posts. There's a reason people are calling you obnoxious and asking you to stop posting. When you have 50+ posts in a thread that is not even that large, perhaps you should be asking yourself "Is this really something that needs to be said?" before you hit that "Post" button. We're all here to watch some Brood War and have a good time, so we need to be respectful of each other and not pollute threads with whatever pops into our head. | ||
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RustyZerg
3 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/BbzimuS.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/6LUPb46.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/St1Un92.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Jjxdusr.jpg) In game 1 hero spawned a hatchery at the top edge of the main base, not only did he wanted to hide his tech but also made the nydus play possible after his third base was raided!! In case you don't know what's going on, the creep does not extend to the third base when you build it near the edge, but it prevents the creep from despawning once the creep is there. Mind blowing. | ||
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Miragee
8469 Posts
On April 25 2018 11:53 RustyZerg wrote: /snip Yeah, that was pretty cool indeed! | ||
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
Sparkle, the games where I saw terran going bio, the zergs were usually wrecked, by multiple dropships. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On April 25 2018 10:21 Motivate wrote: I agree with this. ASL is meant to represent competitive Broodwar. I find stacking the maps like that very unprofessional by the organisers. stacking the maps is literally how it always has been. There's a reason why there was a period of strong TvZ maps and PvZ maps. It was to stop Savior. | ||
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
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xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
On April 25 2018 08:26 ShowTheLights wrote: Wrong. Absolutely wrong. People hate Sparkle because it is IMBALANCED. It gives a CLEAR advantage to one race. Nobody cares if it is a slower paced or different strats come out, that is fine. The ELO adjusted win rate for Terran vs Zerg on sparkle in 36%. The ELO adjusted win rate for Zerg vs Terran on Third World is 38.8% One of these maps was played twice (it wasn't sparkle) ![[image loading]](https://puu.sh/A9YWL/b2f7961a60.png) | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
On April 25 2018 16:08 Golgotha wrote: I feel like the near insta-GG by Mind on Sparkle when Hero showed the sky zerg with drops, makes it pretty clear just how boring that map is. Mind barely fought back on sparkle. On Third World, he fought like a madman even though at times he was behind. There is a reason why Sparkle will not be in the next ASL. thank goodness. They should make island maps imho, but with more focus on aggression, maybe with low amounts gas on geysers or minerals, while allowing Z a fighting chance. | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1706 Posts
On April 25 2018 09:53 Xxio wrote: Not according to Flash. Maybe he was bluffing, but he said that he's so confident on Sparkle that he's moved on to preparing for other maps. He’s so confident Sparkle is hopeless that there’s no point wasting time practicing on it! I have read that he seems to be having a hard time with Third World | ||
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Deus ex machina
22 Posts
On April 25 2018 05:08 Peeano wrote: Wasn't looking for a translation. I'm looking to copy/paste the Korean text 제3세계 트랜지스터 스파클 글래디에이터 제3세계 | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
On April 25 2018 15:48 xccam wrote: The ELO adjusted win rate for Terran vs Zerg on sparkle in 36%. The ELO adjusted win rate for Zerg vs Terran on Third World is 38.8% One of these maps was played twice (it wasn't sparkle) I'll do something a little less technical! Bonjwa count: Terran (4) Zerg (1) Protoss (0) People are all up in arms about Terran being screwed in terms of maps, but they have become desensitized to the fact that in the hands of the best players their race has the cards inherently stacked in their favor. | ||
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Miragee
8469 Posts
On April 25 2018 21:05 mierin wrote: I'll do something a little less technical! Bonjwa count: Terran (4) Zerg (1) Protoss (0) People are all up in arms about Terran being screwed in terms of maps, but they have become desensitized to the fact that in the hands of the best players their race has the cards inherently stacked in their favor. Terrans just aren't used to fight the uphill battle! lol There is probably some truth to that statement though. | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
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TiQ.SinGi
Norway385 Posts
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
Free game for Hero on sparkle for 3-2 result. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On April 25 2018 21:05 mierin wrote: I'll do something a little less technical! Bonjwa count: Terran (4) Zerg (1) Protoss (0) People are all up in arms about Terran being screwed in terms of maps, but they have become desensitized to the fact that in the hands of the best players their race has the cards inherently stacked in their favor. We have no idea about this. It's quite possible that Flash et. al. were just the best players period, and would have dominated equally with another race. What you said is inherently an opinion, but you stated it as fact. On April 25 2018 16:08 Golgotha wrote: I feel like the near insta-GG by Mind on Sparkle when Hero showed the sky zerg with drops, makes it pretty clear just how boring that map is. Mind barely fought back on sparkle. On Third World, he fought like a madman even though at times he was behind. There is a reason why Sparkle will not be in the next ASL. thank goodness. I haven't found Sparkle to be boring at all. It's been fascinating watching players try all kinds of different concepts out on the map, searching for effective ideas. We've seen at least 3-4 different paradigms per matchup being tried in most match ups, which is something that hasn't happened since likely the first couple years of BW. In other ways it does limit options, so I certainly wouldn't want maps like Sparkle to be a routine fixture, and certainly shouldn't be more than one game out of any series, but in terms of concept I think it's an excellent step in the right direction of variety. We're pretty good about FS/CB maps play out, throwing in new concepts is excellent and keeps things interesting on all sides. This isn't directed at you Golgotha, but in general, all the Sparkle imbalance talk is just silly in my opinion. We've been playing this map for what, maybe 2 or 3 months max? ZvT and PvZ spent years stuck in some painfully difficult ruts. It took zerg at least a year or more to start to have reasonable success against late mech switch. To have a couple hundred games played on a map that is an entirely different paradigm and start going "This map is so imbalanced" makes me want to roll me eyes...especially when FlaSh is confidently saying he has solid ideas for the map and believes it's not an issue. | ||
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xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
On April 27 2018 00:08 _Animus_ wrote: Mind play was mostly outstanding, he lost because of the maps. Free game for Hero on sparkle for 3-2 result. And two wins on a map where mind had (correct me if I'm wrong) a 90%record in spon matches and zerg has a 38% Elo adjusted win rate. It happened when hero reached the finals last season, people talking hero down and how he didn't deserve it. Hero is criminally under appreciated on this forum. | ||
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Miragee
8469 Posts
On April 27 2018 02:31 xccam wrote: And two wins on a map where mind had (correct me if I'm wrong) a 90%record in spon matches and zerg has a 38% Elo adjusted win rate. It happened when hero reached the finals last season, people talking hero down and how he didn't deserve it. Hero is criminally under appreciated on this forum. I'm not a big fan of hero but he was the better player here. Mind played good but not outstanding. Losing so many vessels in game 1 is not acceptable on that level and he deserved to lose because of that for example. | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
Here's a good game on Sparkle of Flash vs Stork for those awaiting Flash vs Snow on Sparkle. | ||
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portaljester
United States6 Posts
On April 25 2018 11:33 Miragee wrote: Are you kidding me? Just because terrans seem to be incapable of adapting to an island map doesn't mean it's imbalanced. It's way too early to say anything about balance because it still needs to be figured out. The biggest problem right now is that terrans refuse to play the economic game on a map that prevents early harass. I mean, terrans love to go Rax-CC or 14CC on normal maps but here they go 2 port wraith before CC which does absolutely nothing because the zerg has already defense up by the time the wraiths come out. Take the game in this series for example. 2 port wraith, didn't do any damage. The only advantage had was map control. What would you normally do when you have map control and the opponent has no way of attacking you? Expanding. When did he start his third? At 11.30. Really? He started his third when Hero was finally starting to build up a force to regain some of that map control. Then Mind started mass-expanding. It was already too late at that point, sorry. You don't go 2 port on a normal map and let the zerg get away with 3 bases without taking damage and still expect to win the game. Why would you expect a win on Sparkle? . Marines are good because they can slow or prevent a 3rd gas. Sparkles main has 3 has for z. Defilers prevent terran from expanding and defending. It's best for t to do something early to try and get an edge. It's not very effective however, thus the low win rate. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Edit On April 27 2018 02:31 xccam wrote: Hero is criminally under appreciated on this forum. Kind of seems like it. He's been doing some brilliant stuff. In the finals against Flash where he lost 1-3, his one victory was a comeback against late mech that looked completely impossible until he did it. I didn't think anything of him in the KeSPA era, but he's won me over. | ||
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Miragee
8469 Posts
On April 27 2018 13:21 portaljester wrote: Marines are good because they can slow or prevent a 3rd gas. Sparkles main has 3 has for z. Defilers prevent terran from expanding and defending. It's best for t to do something early to try and get an edge. It's not very effective however, thus the low win rate. You realise how late zergs go defiler on sparkle, right? Enough time to get 3-4 bases up. And it's not best to try to get an early edge if it doesn't work. Protoss expands on Sparkle as crazy as zerg. I don't get why terran can't if they are the only race that doesn't even have to get drops to expand to other islands. Zergs are not on the map until mutas come out, which is definitely not before the 6-7 minute mark. You could probably go double CC before rax. At least it's worth a try. | ||
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
On April 27 2018 01:54 L_Master wrote: We have no idea about this. It's quite possible that Flash et. al. were just the best players period, and would have dominated equally with another race. What you said is inherently an opinion, but you stated it as fact. We have no scientific idea, but would you really claim that it's likely that the best Terran players are so much better than their counterparts of other races? While possible it seems very statistically unlikely given a "balanced" game. Especially over multiple epochs, and actually literally every epoch of the game. | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On April 27 2018 02:31 xccam wrote: And two wins on a map where mind had (correct me if I'm wrong) a 90%record in spon matches and zerg has a 38% Elo adjusted win rate. It happened when hero reached the finals last season, people talking hero down and how he didn't deserve it. Hero is criminally under appreciated on this forum. Idk about statistics but to me it looks like this map favors zerg, as its hard for terran to secure 3rd and 4th and make it into mech, with no mech and zerg with hive tech you know whats gonna happen, pressure is always on terran and defender has advantage as always. Mind has that game, all he needed to do was in the last drop to load units from middle expansion of hero again into the dropship and send them to top left after killing hatch which was on red, he let them die then basically hero stabilized. That was the gg move. You can see the fear on the face of Hero even he won the first game, because he knows whats gonna come and he may not cope with that play, good for him he had that free win on sparkle. Last game was disappointing, as Mind couldnt read the build from hero and put himself far behind with that 1 base vs 2 base play. On April 27 2018 02:47 Miragee wrote: I'm not a big fan of hero but he was the better player here. Mind played good but not outstanding. Losing so many vessels in game 1 is not acceptable on that level and he deserved to lose because of that for example. What do you mean losing that many vessels is not acceptable, Mind put his focus on what was important in that game, keeping pressure on zerg killing drones and expansions. Vessels cant help if zerg is on 5 bases hive tech and map is so open that you cant secure 4th base and make mech transition. Sending vessels to do eraser with the risk of being scourged can tell you how little of an issue mind has with losing them. | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
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xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
On April 28 2018 08:42 _Animus_ wrote: Idk about statistics but to me it looks like this map favors zerg, as its hard for terran to secure 3rd and 4th and make it into mech, with no mech and zerg with hive tech you know whats gonna happen, pressure is always on terran and defender has advantage as always. Mind has that game, all he needed to do was in the last drop to load units from middle expansion of hero again into the dropship and send them to top left after killing hatch which was on red, he let them die then basically hero stabilized. That was the gg move. You can see the fear on the face of Hero even he won the first game, because he knows whats gonna come and he may not cope with that play, good for him he had that free win on sparkle. Last game was disappointing, as Mind couldnt read the build from hero and put himself far behind with that 1 base vs 2 base play. What do you mean losing that many vessels is not acceptable, Mind put his focus on what was important in that game, keeping pressure on zerg killing drones and expansions. Vessels cant help if zerg is on 5 bases hive tech and map is so open that you cant secure 4th base and make mech transition. Sending vessels to do eraser with the risk of being scourged can tell you how little of an issue mind has with losing them. Well, the statistics don't agree with you there, in spon matches Terran are beating zerg almost as much on 3rd World as Zerg are on sparkle. ![[image loading]](https://puu.sh/AbWLm/d165ca0c74.png) | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4103 Posts
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
On April 28 2018 23:00 M2 wrote: Both games 1 and 5, hero's bo, blind countered mind's bo, was this luck or preparation or both, I don't know, but mind would've taken at least one of the games if it was not like that imo Blind counter? How did Hero's bo blind counter Mind's? If I remember correctly, he went 3 hatch the first game then 2 hatch the fifth game. If anything, the actions of the players were what "countered" the other. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4103 Posts
On April 29 2018 01:51 Ty2 wrote: Blind counter? How did Hero's bo blind counter Mind's? If I remember correctly, he went 3 hatch the first game then 2 hatch the fifth game. If anything, the actions of the players were what "countered" the other. well if I remember correctly, game 1 he went some kind of no lair speed hydras attack vs two port wraiths, he could've even won the game right there if he knew mind's opening. Game 5 he went two hatch, low drone, fast tech, fast unit production vs proxy factory. These are blind counter openings in my world | ||
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Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
On April 29 2018 02:09 M2 wrote: well if I remember correctly, game 1 he went some kind of no lair speed hydras attack vs two port wraiths, he could've even won the game right there if he knew mind's opening. Game 5 he went two hatch, low drone, fast tech, fast unit production vs proxy factory. These are blind counter openings in my world I think you're thinking of game 3 on Sparkle which is where mind went 2 starport. Hero scouted it with his overlord so he knew, and got the slight lead. It's hard to say it's a "lead" though when it comes to island maps where advantages have a more stunted effect due to how weighted and difficult attacks and finishing the game are. When there's a lot of space in between such game finishing moves, there's a lot of room to outplay your opponent which we saw in Sparkle's drawn out game. Mind just tried a high risk/high reward build and got the shortish end of the stick pretty much. His harass evened the game up slightly, but Hero was slightly ahead. There were plenty of opportunities and exchanges from both that influenced the end game, and Hero abused Mind's mobile, but fragile air army. So to me, I think a lot of it wasn't the build orders but how the players played the game out. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4103 Posts
On April 29 2018 03:04 Ty2 wrote: I think you're thinking of game 3 on Sparkle which is where mind went 2 starport. Hero scouted it with his overlord so he knew, and got the slight lead. It's hard to say it's a "lead" though when it comes to island maps where advantages have a more stunted effect due to how weighted and difficult attacks and finishing the game are. When there's a lot of space in between such game finishing moves, there's a lot of room to outplay your opponent which we saw in Sparkle's drawn out game. Mind just tried a high risk/high reward build and got the shortish end of the stick pretty much. His harass evened the game up slightly, but Hero was slightly ahead. There were plenty of opportunities and exchanges from both that influenced the end game, and Hero abused Mind's mobile, but fragile air army. So to me, I think a lot of it wasn't the build orders but how the players played the game out. I agree, I am just saying that games were pretty close and if mind had a bo advantage in at least one of the games, he would've probably won, however, hero got the advantage in both | ||
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O.P.
Sweden109 Posts
On April 27 2018 17:52 arbiter_md wrote: Mind threw the first game away. He had it in the bag after killing the third, and having the natural on low hp. Somehow he managed to throw that game and it costed him the overall victory basically. Poor decision-making cost him the game. Either going for the kill or stepping back and expanding would have been good, but he tried to do both things at once and stretched himself too thin. The better player won. | ||
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