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United States9925 Posts
On November 22 2017 01:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Flash fans getting super defensive (or even aggressive) when somebody doesn't praise every single aspect of his gameplay. Yes he does what it takes to win and it works for him, noone is denying that. It was simply about the style of gameplay he brings on the table and if that's entertaining compared to other players. Not everyone has to agree there either.
But implying that every aspect of his gameplay is the best out of anyone is intellectually dishonest, even if he is the best player overall.
I agree with this sentiment. There's a reason FlaSh can still lose games and I don't think he's perfect. He's unquestionably the greatest, best player. But being the best does not mean being the best in everything. Michael Jordan was nowhere near the best shooter in the NBA, but the sum of all his parts, being a fantastic defender, offensive powerhouse, clutch factor, great teammate, were what made him the greatest. One could say the same about FlaSh, all of his skills are well above average, but he's definitely not the best vulture micro-er, his marine control is great but not as good as someone like Light, not the best air micro like a Hiya or Leta (2 port wraith ayy), but his methodical ability to gain incremental advantages over the course of a game with proper focus on where to spend his attention allows him to get away with not perfect micro in most cases.
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On November 22 2017 04:19 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 01:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Flash fans getting super defensive (or even aggressive) when somebody doesn't praise every single aspect of his gameplay. Yes he does what it takes to win and it works for him, noone is denying that. It was simply about the style of gameplay he brings on the table and if that's entertaining compared to other players. Not everyone has to agree there either.
But implying that every aspect of his gameplay is the best out of anyone is intellectually dishonest, even if he is the best player overall. I agree with this sentiment. There's a reason FlaSh can still lose games and I don't think he's perfect. He's unquestionably the greatest, best player. But being the best does not mean being the best in everything. Michael Jordan was nowhere near the best shooter in the NBA, but the sum of all his parts, being a fantastic defender, offensive powerhouse, clutch factor, great teammate, were what made him the greatest. One could say the same about FlaSh, all of his skills are well above average, but he's definitely not the best vulture micro-er, his marine control is great but not as good as someone like Light, not the best air micro like a Hiya or Leta (2 port wraith ayy), but his methodical ability to gain incremental advantages over the course of a game with proper focus on where to spend his attention allows him to get away with not perfect micro in most cases.
That's the beautiful thing about starcraft (and any other art/competition/anything which requires mastery basically), there are so many different aspects to the game you can get better at that noone will ever be good at every single one (good is relative compared to the peers)
We have concepts like macro, micro, decision making, etc but you can specify and find sub tasks for every single one of these, etc.
The best overall player wins the most, that's the ultimate objective of competing in starcraft, but it's more than that, it's also showcasing your personality in your play. Some kind of self-fulfillment through the game.
If a game can give people the opportunity to do that then that's a beautiful thing.
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Excessively long post... sigh.
+ Show Spoiler +Although I question some of the assertions about Flash's specific deficiencies,* it's obvious that he's not perfect and that there's room for improvement. He can lose like anyone else, although he does most of his losing offstage because he's so experienced in the mental preparation and outwitting that wins games onstage.
But that's not what got this whole snowball rolling, with the football analogies and everything. The snowball got rolling because people were discussing whether Flash's style was entertaining. I can see how some people might find other styles more entertaining. For example, Letmelose said that he prefers a style in which a player seeks to outmultitask the opponent incrementally while also being willing to throw the dice on a big play and having the skill to succeed in it. That's Jaedong, and I wouldn't blame anyone for preferring that style.
That's not the only way of being entertaining, though. With Flash it's more about learning that there are ways to win that you never thought of, and that an impossible situation has an escape. Watching him escape the impossible situation is different than watching Jaedong micro two control groups of mutas at once, but for me both are entertaining. Flash's genius in this regard is easiest to appreciate in games he wins narrowly, but sometimes you'll see it when he wins easily or loses. He can see the path that nobody else sees.
Flash vs Sea on Crossing Field in ASL2: Flash had an unfavorable map split in a late game that was going to battlecruisers. Sea was reinforcing the bottom base (which in an even map split would belong to Flash) with tanks, BCs, and turrets. From his position, for Flash to take this base would be as easy as stepping out of his booth and jumping to the Moon. But somehow he chipped away at it and dropped goliaths and Yamato gunned and, bit by bit, he actually took that expansion from Sea. I couldn't believe it. He still lost but it was amazing.
Flash vs Best on Fortress in KeSPA days: Flash took him apart with nothing but dropship harassment. Drop the main, drop the natural. Drop the main, drop the natural. There was no timing push, no siege line, he just won with pure dropship harassment. I've never seen a single game that resembled this one.
Flash vs Best on Match Point in KeSPA days: Flash dusts off the nukes. He tries to nuke Best, but Best uses stasis field on the ghost. He tries again, and Best tries to use stasis field on the ghost, but Flash uses EMP on the arbiter that would cast stasis field, and the nuke goes off.
Flash vs Savior on Blue Storm in KeSPA days: Flash is getting wrecked all game by mutas, then he starts getting wrecked by guardians. He does the science vessel eraser of a lifetime and goes on to win a lost game.
I could go on, but I don't always remember the right map or tournament, and it's not very rewarding to the reader for me to share all my memories if they're not specific. Flash sees a way forward that nobody else can see, including when all seems lost. This is essentially why I can't help cheering for him. Granted, his easier victories are sometimes boring to watch unless you understand the subtleties of why an otherwise competent opponent just rolled over and died --- and I don't always understand those subtleties --- but when his opponents rise to the challenge, and force Flash to rise to the challenge, the games can be terrific.
*Like, about Light's marine micro. Is it really better than Flash's? I dunno, but I remember seeing a recent translated Jaedong comment to the effect that Flash's marine micro was uniquely frustrating to play against because he knows where the mutas want to go and will fake you out. There is a mental aspect to micro as well as a mechanical one. I've never seen Flash compete in a micro UMS game, and I'll warrant that there are players who could beat him at that, but I've often observed him to be exceedingly good in the mental aspect of micro (maneuvering to keep his units in the positions that will cause greatest surprise/distress to the opponent and/or storming defenses through speed when the opponent is not expecting a battle.) On a similar note, I think Fantasy's vulture dominance comes from the mental aspect. Is he really better at doing patrol micro --- which is a rote task any competent Terran can do --- or is he better at sensing weak spots and slipping past defenses to exploit them? For me it's the latter. I recall a translated Flash comment from the 2009/10 era to the effect that he wished that he had Fantasy's skill at creating chaos on the map. Thus, I believe that Fantasy surpassed Flash in this regard.
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On November 22 2017 01:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Flash fans getting super defensive (or even aggressive) when somebody doesn't praise every single aspect of his gameplay. Yes he does what it takes to win and it works for him, noone is denying that. It was simply about the style of gameplay he brings on the table and if that's entertaining compared to other players. Not everyone has to agree there either.
But implying that every aspect of his gameplay is the best out of anyone is intellectually dishonest, even if he is the best player overall.
Nobody here saying that Flash is the best in every aspect. Nobody.
In fact I am denying the argument that Flash style should be improved/adjusted in some aspects like micromanagement to be more ENTERTAINING. Why? Analogically, it is like people love Messi style and still want Ronaldo to improve in the style that defined by Messi, because to them Ronaldo's style is not entertaining. Or you enjoy wrestling and feel like boxing should adopt some things from wrestling to become more entertaining. It does not make any sense.
I guess the only thing that would be entertaining to some of you (and to me as well) here in Starcraft specifically that someone who is able to become the new rival of Flash. On that day, we would again enjoy the game as we used to, at least because we have something to predict. Period.
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Flash has been my favorite player since 2008 (i.e. before his total dominance). I understand where the frustration by fellow fans is coming from.
Letmelose put it well in a previous post somewhere. Some players are beloved, almost independent of their performance. Others are begrudgingly admired at best.
Outside of a core group of fans (a group that's substantially smaller than Bisu's, Jaedong's, and probably even Stork's), Flash has always been in the latter camp. If you're one of his fans, it sometimes feels like there's this never ending quest to diminish Flash in some way. It's a bit tiresome, and sometimes these frustrations boil over, leading to posts like a few of those in this thread which defend Flash in silly or petty ways, while lashing out fair critiques of his play.
It's not rational, but fandom never is. The issue isn't that people are sufficiently acknowledging Flash's greatness. To be frank, he removed all doubt ages ago, and his ASL threepeat is just icing on the cake for the greatest player of all time. (*)
(*) Sorry Nada fans, I get the argument for him, but even disregarding ASL, the fact that the # of OSL and MSL went from three per year almost every year, to being much less frequent, followed by SC2 murdering professional BW, is the tiebreaker to me. If Flash was allowed to have Nada's opportunity career length-wise, I think it's reasonable to argue that even if he didn't stay as #1, and new blood entered the scene (or people like Rain and Bogus/Innovation had channeled their talents toward BW in a professional team house environment), he likely still would have found a way to claw out another title or two before it was all said and done, and continued to perform at an extremely high level in Proleague.
The issue is that even when people praise Flash, it inevitably comes with "yeah but". Every fan is entitled to their opinion, but after awhile, like I said above, the word "tiresome" comes to mind. Performance-wise, Flash basically attained Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzky, or Babe Ruth, level. But unlike the conversation around those players, which is 95% celebratory (probably overly celebratory - you can make an argument for everyone from Wilt to Kareem to LeBron being Jordan's equal, you can make an argument for guys like Bobby Orr being Gretzky's equal, and you can make an argument that Ruth didn't play against black players and guys like Willie Mays or eventually Mike Trout were superior), the conversation around Flash is 95% of the form "yeah, but". Like, "yeah he's the best, but I don't like him", "yeah he's the best, but other inferior players were better in ways I find more appealing", "yeah he's the best, but he's killing the scene", and so on.
As Djabanete noted in this thread, there is no shortage of examples of spectacular play by Flash, with "spectacular" defined in ways that the average fan would agree with, i.e. not "spectacular only if you appreciate Flash". But the narrative around him causes these examples to be overlooked, diminished, or outright ignored. At a certain point, confirmation bias dominates the conversation around Flash. If you're looking for the things you don't love about him, you're gonna see them, and the counterexamples will simply go through one ear and out the other. That's what seems to happen a lot with Flash.
Again, every fan is entitled to their opinion. I am not trying to argue people should like Flash more, because this is fundamentally a matter of opinion. I'm just trying to explain where this backlash from some of his fans is coming from, so hopefully people who don't like Flash don't use a few outlier examples to further build up their negative imagery of him and his fans. Let's be honest, if we're to be objective, there's nothing like a delusional Bisu fan =P.
I still remember going to WCG 2010 and being one of like five people out of a pretty big crowd cheering for him against Jaedong. It was a bit sad to me, because he was at his absolute pinnacle at that time. I know some argue that the players are just as good today but I think that's probably a bit of an exaggeration (players are probably smarter, but the mechanics aren't as good). Flash in October 2010 (when WCG occurred) was probably the absolute pinnacle of raw BW skill combined with experience, "will to win", and the youth necessary for the body and mind to be totally in sync (something that is not true today for Flash, even with how well he plays).
After 2+ years of people asserting that there will never another bonjwa, because it's just impossible to attain the level necessary to remove all doubt, Flash exceeded that threshold and more. Obviously what Flash has done is not the same level of achievement, but it was like knowing Picasso is painting in front of you, or Jordan from 95-98, or hearing a lecture by Einstein after relativity had been proven. It was special even then, yet at that WCG (where you had to be a pretty hardcore fan to attend), people didn't really care. It wasn't just the Jaedong factor. Even when he played Kal in the WCG finals, people were rooting for Kal and the applause was muted at best when Flash won.
To all the other Flash fans out there, I would say try not to get too caught up in the cycle of diminishment that is Flash's fate. Some players are heroes and others are villains. It's not that people hate Flash, it's just that one of the best things you can say about him is that when he loses, it's an EVENT. Entire career narratives rest disproportionately on players' performance against him. Jangbi's 2-1 over him, Fantasy's 3-0 and Proleague final win after Flash dominated their head-to-head matchup up until 2011, Jaedong's 3 straight finals losses, Effort's status (and I say this as a big Effort fan). The list goes on. If hero had won these finals, it would singlehandedly have bumped his legacy up a notch (moreso than him winning an ASL against any other finals opponent). That's how significant Flash is, even to this day. Hell, Larva's legacy has been enhanced simply by doing decently in STREAMED games against Flash. He doesn't even win a very high % of games against Flash - they just play a lot and Larva occasionally has spectacular wins!
Honestly if I wasn't a Flash fan I'd find him annoying too. I feel lucky that his style of play is appealing to me, and that I liked him as a player even before he was the best. Being his fan has been one of the most enriching parts of my BW spectator experience.
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The reading comprehension of some people here is simply stunning.
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This entire engagement started off with a poster venting about Flash not being popular enough, which has been the status quo for quite some time. The whole segment about breaking down certain aspects of Flash, in addition to a plethora of other players such as JangBi, Bisu, and Light, was my personal take on why Flash's gaming style may not be as popular, without going into other superficial stuff such as looks, which I really didn't feel like going into (since the sexual appeal of various Brood War players is not my topic of preference).
Since I felt like this whole narrative that popularity scales inversely with competitive success was factually incorrect, as seen by the varying popularity of incredibly successful Brood War players throughout the years (for example, I don't see sob stories about Bisu's lack of popularity compared to other protoss legends, or how sAviOr lacked popularity when compared to July), and wanted to bring forth more dimension to this issue from a gaming style perspective, I did so in a quite time consuming effort. While these discussions brought forth some interesting debate over the various quirks, as well as the artistry that Flash brings to the table, I will take heed in discussing things about Flash in the future.
There's some inner issues with Flash's popularity that some of you guys need figure out for yourselves before doing anything else.
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On November 21 2017 11:06 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2017 10:08 kangaroo_in_diaper wrote:
Letmelose have presented very interesting observations, and although I appreciate most of his opinions, I still think he underappreciates Flash in many ways. First, micromanagement is important in the game but at the pro level, I think it does not really matter, as all pro players already have sufficient skills to control their units in the way they want. Of course outstanding micro can sometimes get the audience stunned but in general, it is not smart to spend a large portion of APM to impress the audience. The analogy I can make is basketball. For example, height is very important in basketball, but you don't need to be too tall to play basketball. And after a certain point, height does not really matter. Yao Ming is not as great as Michael Jordan although he is much taller. Similar to height in basketball, after a certain point, I can say that micro skill does not matter at all. In case of Flash, I don't think Flash cannot micro as good as Bisu, just because he is not able to do so. Micromanagement is possible to learn and improve like any other skills by practice (our genes certainly do not know Starcraft). In case of Starcraft, micromanagement consumes APM, and Flash chooses to spend his APM on other actions rather than getting the audience stunned. At the end of the day, what really matters is winning and winning in Starcraft requires a little bit of everything.
Second, the analogy of football is definitely a long shot as there is no race in football. Thus, comparing Jaedong, Bisu and Flash using football are more or less apple vs orange, or perhaps Ronaldo vs Sergio Ramos.
Finally, Flash is perfect and the perfection is indeed boring because there is nothing to expect. Flash always win, there is no surprise, which as a result makes the audience bored. More importantly, Flash is also very stable and not sloppy like any other players. In football there is a saying that "Form is temporary, Class is forever". That is also true in Starcraft.
Brood War is a competitive game, not a performance art. I started off the thread with the stance that nothing outside of competitive results can be considered more significant, whether it is popularity, proficiency at certain aspects of the game, or potential skill cap. I believe I stated that train of thought multiple times throughout this thread. With that being said, what I am not for, is what I perceive to be false narratives based on wishful thinking, or circular logic. What I am saying with the football analogy that being faster, and being more technically proficient with the ball are undeniably positive factors that aid a player to achieve greatness. However, being a superior player overall does not auto-matically make you faster, or haver a finer first touch than a player of lesser overall capacity. Messi was never the single greatest athlete (sprinting, stamina etc) on the planet, and although Messi during his prime was the greatest player we have seen in recent times, that doesn't mean that Messi was thoroughly complete and immaculate in every conceivable manner. It isn't blasphemous to suggest that Messi even during his prime was never the greatest athlete in terms of raw stamina, when it is undeniable that having more stamina is an asset that comes in handy. Flash being superior to other players overall speaks very little about his actual ability to manipulate his units to the very highest degree. Just like Messi was once the greatest by some distance without having a bull-like stamina. It is possible to reach a certain godlike status without being actually perfect. Flash is the closest to perfection a human has gotten at the game of Brood War, but he is far from perfect, and that is the beauty of the game. Even Flash can get better, and the fact that he loses games due getting outplayed from a micro-managament perspective counters your argument that micro-management becomes useless after a certain point. Even though no human will ever reach the theoretical skill-cap of this game, it doesn't necessarily mean we have already seen the absolute possible threshold for human capabilities. Flash is the fore-runner thus far, but you and I have very contrasting opinions of what constitutes a perfect player. If it is circular logic and menial complements for Flash that you seek, I'm sorry I am not in agreement that Flash must be perfect because he seems that way in your eyes.
Starcraft is non-deterministic, just like chess. Thus there is no single algorithm or human being that can solve non-deterministic problems global optimally if that is what you mean. Perfection here is the way Flash executes the game strategically. He does exactly the right thing at exactly the right time in terms of decision making, and more importantly he is able to repeat that again and again.
I understand your point that Flash can be out-microed sometimes but do you think that Flash or any pro player would be outmicroed most of the time by any other pro player. Statistically speaking, I don't think you can draw a conclusion that micromanagement really matters at pro level just based on several examples.
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On November 22 2017 12:43 kangaroo_in_diaper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2017 11:06 Letmelose wrote:On November 21 2017 10:08 kangaroo_in_diaper wrote:
Letmelose have presented very interesting observations, and although I appreciate most of his opinions, I still think he underappreciates Flash in many ways. First, micromanagement is important in the game but at the pro level, I think it does not really matter, as all pro players already have sufficient skills to control their units in the way they want. Of course outstanding micro can sometimes get the audience stunned but in general, it is not smart to spend a large portion of APM to impress the audience. The analogy I can make is basketball. For example, height is very important in basketball, but you don't need to be too tall to play basketball. And after a certain point, height does not really matter. Yao Ming is not as great as Michael Jordan although he is much taller. Similar to height in basketball, after a certain point, I can say that micro skill does not matter at all. In case of Flash, I don't think Flash cannot micro as good as Bisu, just because he is not able to do so. Micromanagement is possible to learn and improve like any other skills by practice (our genes certainly do not know Starcraft). In case of Starcraft, micromanagement consumes APM, and Flash chooses to spend his APM on other actions rather than getting the audience stunned. At the end of the day, what really matters is winning and winning in Starcraft requires a little bit of everything.
Second, the analogy of football is definitely a long shot as there is no race in football. Thus, comparing Jaedong, Bisu and Flash using football are more or less apple vs orange, or perhaps Ronaldo vs Sergio Ramos.
Finally, Flash is perfect and the perfection is indeed boring because there is nothing to expect. Flash always win, there is no surprise, which as a result makes the audience bored. More importantly, Flash is also very stable and not sloppy like any other players. In football there is a saying that "Form is temporary, Class is forever". That is also true in Starcraft.
Brood War is a competitive game, not a performance art. I started off the thread with the stance that nothing outside of competitive results can be considered more significant, whether it is popularity, proficiency at certain aspects of the game, or potential skill cap. I believe I stated that train of thought multiple times throughout this thread. With that being said, what I am not for, is what I perceive to be false narratives based on wishful thinking, or circular logic. What I am saying with the football analogy that being faster, and being more technically proficient with the ball are undeniably positive factors that aid a player to achieve greatness. However, being a superior player overall does not auto-matically make you faster, or haver a finer first touch than a player of lesser overall capacity. Messi was never the single greatest athlete (sprinting, stamina etc) on the planet, and although Messi during his prime was the greatest player we have seen in recent times, that doesn't mean that Messi was thoroughly complete and immaculate in every conceivable manner. It isn't blasphemous to suggest that Messi even during his prime was never the greatest athlete in terms of raw stamina, when it is undeniable that having more stamina is an asset that comes in handy. Flash being superior to other players overall speaks very little about his actual ability to manipulate his units to the very highest degree. Just like Messi was once the greatest by some distance without having a bull-like stamina. It is possible to reach a certain godlike status without being actually perfect. Flash is the closest to perfection a human has gotten at the game of Brood War, but he is far from perfect, and that is the beauty of the game. Even Flash can get better, and the fact that he loses games due getting outplayed from a micro-managament perspective counters your argument that micro-management becomes useless after a certain point. Even though no human will ever reach the theoretical skill-cap of this game, it doesn't necessarily mean we have already seen the absolute possible threshold for human capabilities. Flash is the fore-runner thus far, but you and I have very contrasting opinions of what constitutes a perfect player. If it is circular logic and menial complements for Flash that you seek, I'm sorry I am not in agreement that Flash must be perfect because he seems that way in your eyes. Starcraft is non-deterministic, just like chess. Thus there is no single algorithm or human being that can solve non-deterministic problems global optimally if that is what you mean. Perfection here is the way Flash executes the game strategically. He does exactly the right thing at exactly the right time in terms of decision making, and more importantly he is able to repeat that again and again. I understand your point that Flash can be out-microed sometimes but do you think that Flash or any pro player would be outmicroed most of the time by any other pro player. Statistically speaking, I don't think you can draw a conclusion that micromanagement really matters at pro level just based on several examples.
Not really.
Brood War is more of a multi-faceted craft than chess. The fact that statically speaking Flash usally does not get punished for not quite matching the superlative micro-management abilities found in some of his peers does not mean that micro-management abilities become defunct after a certain point. Just like micro-management abilities were not irrelevant during iloveoov's era when he dominated the scene without having crisp micro-management due to his other extra-ordinary abilities. It speaks more about their other fantastic attributes, rather than micro-management abilities not being relevant at the professional level, which is quite frankly speaking a ludicrous thing to suggest.
Statistically speaking, Tyson was incredibly successful at his craft despite his lack of reach compared to some of his peers, due to his outstanding qualities elsewhere. That does not mean reach becomes irrrelevant at the highest level. Excellence can be attained without a perfecting a certain attribute, but that doesn't negate that attribute as a quality worth having.
Masking a certain attribute by having amazing capabilities elsewhere can be seen in every walk of life. That is not perfection, that is called playing to your strengths to the best of your abilities. People thought macro-management didn't matter all that much when BoxeR could simply micro-manage you to death. People thought build orders didn't matter all that much when NaDa could simply out muscle you from every mechanical perspective. People thought build orders were all that mattered when iloveoov swept the scene with his superior read on the meta-game. In retrospect, none of them were perfect, and I have no problems with pointing out what I perceive to be potential weak points in Flash's overall skill-sets as a competitor, even though as of now, they don't seem to be all that relevant due to his overwhelming success.
Due to the steady decrease in the influx of new talent ever since circa 2005, when Brood War stopped being the most played game in Korea, we have the lowest chance of a new wave of Brood War savants replacing the current gods than ever before, but one never knows. There may be a day when you wished Flash had superior micro-management abilities.
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Very well said darktreb. Good to hear that although there are not a lot of us, we are not alone...
I was the poster who, as Letmelose put it, vented about “Flash not being popular enough”.
My post was two-fold. Its first purpose was to get some/majority of people to first acknowledge that they dislike Flash NOT because he wins all the time. That if another player was winning everthing (I specifically mentioned JD coz he so popular), there would be a lot less people complaining that BW has become stale with only 1 person winning all the time.
Only then can we actually have a discussion on why people actually dislike Flash.
Would like to also give a thumbs up to Djabenete. What you said was very true sir.
To the Flash hater/non-fan: dont take offense. We are not butt hurt. We dont think Flash is perfect/god. We simply wanted to share this wonderful player of broodwar with you. To share with you why we think he is amazing and worthy of appreciation. Greatness is fleeting and once its gone its gone. You only have this one chance to enjoy and appreciate him. We dont want you to waste it.
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all these glory hunting Flash "fans"
all these jealous Flash haters
at least BW is still alive in 2017 so grateful for that ^^
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On November 14 2017 00:11 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2017 11:29 FlaShFTW wrote:On November 13 2017 06:41 Barneyk wrote:On November 13 2017 05:22 Burned Toast wrote:
Watch the FlashFTW cast of these matches, the guy has a really up to date understanding of the game/maps/strategies. He insisted on how crucial this was, indeed. I really should, I just rewatched that exacr sequence and he called it just like it was instead of focusing on something else. Artosis and Tasteless both have far better understanding of the game than I do but they so often fail to mention crucial aspects of what is happening, no matter how obvious it is. Sometimes they call really interesting details that I miss, but just as often they miss huge obvious things. I almost always watch the games on youtube later in the day with anticipation addon so I don't get spoiled with the duration, but for the next season I think I am gonna go with FlashFTW anyway, I always mess up the spoil the duration for myself somehow anyway.  d-do i tell him that I'm retiring from ASL casting? O.O On November 13 2017 10:02 niteReloaded wrote:On November 13 2017 09:40 Rainalcar wrote:
Flash is similar to Klitschko brothers. He/they reached greatest heights in BW/boxing, but to the (arguably) boring styles of play (playing Terran, methodical, almost computer-like approach/distance jabs) and overwhelming dominance, not too many people actually care. I dare to say that Flash's dominance is detrimental for BW. Let's see where do we go from here. I agree. I think most people would agree that having one person being so good means the beauty of the game remains 'hidden' because the games are such rolls. On November 13 2017 08:54 Starlightsun wrote:On November 13 2017 08:04 jinjin5000 wrote:On November 13 2017 04:03 PVJ wrote:
I wasn't able to watch the whole show, was there any news / announcement on ASL 5?
Based on the lack of threads / comments, I guess not but anyone could confirm that would be great. No announcement or plans FBH said if there is no sign like that, it means there is no asl in planning I hope this is not true.  Sadly, it makes sense. JD and Bisu not competing means there's less chance of someone challenging Flash. ASL5 would be like a teacher competing vs students in school... heck, even the studio for the finals wasn't nearly full. They COULD make a new type of show that would somehow build it's intrigue, suspense and thrill on the fact that Flash IS such a dominant figure. Make him the guy to 'decapitate'... some type of new vibe show. I also agree with this sentiment that too dominant of a player does indeed make the games unfun to watch. As much as I love FlaSh, it's exciting when he has this rival that can stand up to him and have a good chance of upsetting him. When he loses, everyone loses their heads and everyone is cheering for the underdog because he's been at the top for so long. Really wished Larva or SK met him in the finals, I think it would have been extremely competitive but alas, no dice. As a Flash fan, I feel sad that almost everyone feels this way. Let me ask people here a question — how many can honestly say they would feel the same way if JD were the one in Flash’s shoes? How many people felt the same way about Jordan or Gretzky? Why is Flash not looked upon as favorably as other players? He doesnt have a bad personality. He has a lot of interesting and funny quirks (twitching, pocari, ruler). Its also not like he burst onto the scene and just dominated, he went thru a lot of really tough losses before rising to the top.
Yea, when I first come watch Starcraft BW , Jaedong is at the very top. Every1 say he is the best . And , his death stare, confident , tyrant nickname , play Zerg , just make him the real villain I wan my favourite Terran beat him.
Fantasy climb to the finals vs Jaedong I am so hyped because he is replacement for SlayerS BoxeR , the Crown Prince of SKT T1 .
Sad he lose . And that time his play sometimes is amazing, sometimes so sad to watch.
Then I took notice of Leta and Flash. But that time Flash is rising , and his game vs Bisu (Bisu won with great micro destroy spider mine) make me took more notice of him.
Then Nate MSL happen , Flash vs Jaedong! I wan see Flash win Jaedong. he lose but , he is so confident he could win if no power outbreak occur and I believe him . and the whole father upset , he cannot concentrate, just win me over maybe.
Support Flash ever since.
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I remember my days of being a Flash hater. Circa 2008-2009, I had just gotten back to watching BW after a 4 year hiatus. When I left, it was iloveoov dominating and I hated his style of play with macro and mindgames. I was a Boxer fan then, but I played Protoss vs my friends. When I got back, the player I gravitated to the most was Bisu (of course) because he was the best Protoss player. I then began binge watching the games I had missed, and started appreciating other players like Jaedong, Stork, Jangbi... but it took a long time for me to start liking Flash. He reminded me so much of iloveoov, that I had an unreasonable hatred for the way he played. He made it feel like cheating, to be honest. His maphack scans were a frequent culprit. His decisionmaking was insanely good - he would be even vs another player in supply and army but make a perfect decision of attacking an expo that was very well defended just a few seconds ago, but because of army movement was diverted elsewhere, and he would deal crippling damage just like that and snowball from there.
Then I started maining Terran, and found out how extremely fragile Terran units were and how vital positioning was. When I got better, I began appreciating the skills Flash showed. Tank placement, M&M movement, and the various timings one would get with academy tech, factory tech, and science vessels. Slowly but surely, Flash became my favorite player to watch, and eventually my favorite player of all time save for Bisu (who will always have my heart). Fantasy became another favorite because of his exquisite playstyle. I also started watching oov games and grew to appreciate this giant on whose shoulders my two favorite terrans stand.
Which leads me to my point: we all have these internal biases going on, for one reason or another, and that will lead us to make irrational points or hold illogical views. But that's ok, because that's what being a fan is about! Effort is an awesome player but I absolutely hate him for that Korean Air finals comeback vs Flash. Ditto for Shine and his many Bisu moments. And that's all ok, because at the end of the day, it's about loving the game and appreciating the many different players whose playstyles we can all enjoy one way or another.
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It's not relevant but chess is deterministic.
If Starcraft is war then Flash is the top commander of the world war. He works (macro, micro) with armies not solders. At another extreme, Boxer is the top commander of wars at division scale. He with work with each solder, tell them personally when, where and how to move and to shoot.
If a Starcraft clip is a movie then it's obviously that Flash style is not entertaining for the mass as Boxer's style. Boxer's clip is a non-stop action movie about a heroic marine who will destroy the whole enemy base by himself (Rambo anyone?) and Flash's clip is just a world war documentary. You already know which movie can sell tickets.
For me personally Flash is obviously a boring map-hack, macro whore cheater, someone needs to stop him now, it's very unlikely though .
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Kau
Canada3500 Posts
On November 22 2017 09:08 darktreb wrote:
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If hero had won these finals, it would singlehandedly have bumped his legacy up a notch (moreso than him winning an ASL against any other finals opponent). That's how significant Flash is, even to this day. Hell, Larva's legacy has been enhanced simply by doing decently in STREAMED games against Flash.
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I can attest to the truth of this statement because I became a fan of Juni because he happened to proxy hatch Flash on Andromeda after getting pretty much demolished by an early bunker. Unfortunately, Juni never really became any good.
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I'm going to say this as a casual player since '99 and someone who has been watching proleague since ~2005, my enjoyment of the game has gone down a ton, as a spectator, since the era of Flash dominance has begun. I didn't even watch the ASL final. Flash is good, the best ever, by any metric you want to use. But watching somebody about four steps ahead of his opponents repeatedly wipe the floor with them is only entertaining for so long. Once again, i'm not a very good player, so I appreciate his skill level, but his absolute dominance is removing the fun from the scene. What's the point of training 8 hours a day to try to win a tournament when in the end you know you're going to lose to Flash? It's kind of the same reason I can't convince myself to ladder seriously, what's the point of trying to improve when every single person on the server has 250+apm, lags and doesn't speak English? This game doesn't seem to have much room for new blood anymore and it's very frustrating, and I believe the era of Flash is spelling the end of competitive BW.
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Finally had time to watch the finals. Wow, Flash is just unstoppable.
The 3rd game was really amazing; as I was watching it I had hard believing that hero managed to win that game. But in the first two games hero had his butt handed to him... It seems that Flash is really the final boss of BW and he continues to play it is hard to see anyone else winning 5th ASL
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On November 25 2017 23:12 Aesthetician wrote:
What's the point of training 8 hours a day to try to win a tournament when in the end you know you're going to lose to Flash?
Because second place still has a pay-out and people who play well still get support in the form of fans and balloons. Because these people have been playing the game for years and want to improve, and improve their on-stage performance, and tournaments are a motivator and provider of both. Because even Flash loses games and is mortal.
On November 25 2017 23:12 Aesthetician wrote:
It's kind of the same reason I can't convince myself to ladder seriously, what's the point of trying to improve when every single person on the server has 250+apm, lags and doesn't speak English? This game doesn't seem to have much room for new blood anymore and it's very frustrating, and I believe the era of Flash is spelling the end of competitive BW.
Not everyone plays BW to win every game they play. Some people play (and watch) BW because they love the game. If hero had given up before the finals because "fuck it, it's Flash," then we would never have seen a G3 or the tight moments that happened prior. Effort would have never pulled a reverse 3-0 comeback. Bisu would have never beaten Savior the bonjwa. So on and so forth. I completely sympathize with the desire to win, and the sadness that comes with being crushed and the desire to quit, but don't assume that everyone in the world only does things they know that they will win in. It feels like a common mindset that the millenial "participation trophy" generation is often accused of, and frankly I think it's toxic, counter-productive, and childish overall.
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On November 22 2017 14:11 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 12:43 kangaroo_in_diaper wrote:On November 21 2017 11:06 Letmelose wrote:On November 21 2017 10:08 kangaroo_in_diaper wrote:
Letmelose have presented very interesting observations, and although I appreciate most of his opinions, I still think he underappreciates Flash in many ways. First, micromanagement is important in the game but at the pro level, I think it does not really matter, as all pro players already have sufficient skills to control their units in the way they want. Of course outstanding micro can sometimes get the audience stunned but in general, it is not smart to spend a large portion of APM to impress the audience. The analogy I can make is basketball. For example, height is very important in basketball, but you don't need to be too tall to play basketball. And after a certain point, height does not really matter. Yao Ming is not as great as Michael Jordan although he is much taller. Similar to height in basketball, after a certain point, I can say that micro skill does not matter at all. In case of Flash, I don't think Flash cannot micro as good as Bisu, just because he is not able to do so. Micromanagement is possible to learn and improve like any other skills by practice (our genes certainly do not know Starcraft). In case of Starcraft, micromanagement consumes APM, and Flash chooses to spend his APM on other actions rather than getting the audience stunned. At the end of the day, what really matters is winning and winning in Starcraft requires a little bit of everything.
Second, the analogy of football is definitely a long shot as there is no race in football. Thus, comparing Jaedong, Bisu and Flash using football are more or less apple vs orange, or perhaps Ronaldo vs Sergio Ramos.
Finally, Flash is perfect and the perfection is indeed boring because there is nothing to expect. Flash always win, there is no surprise, which as a result makes the audience bored. More importantly, Flash is also very stable and not sloppy like any other players. In football there is a saying that "Form is temporary, Class is forever". That is also true in Starcraft.
Brood War is a competitive game, not a performance art. I started off the thread with the stance that nothing outside of competitive results can be considered more significant, whether it is popularity, proficiency at certain aspects of the game, or potential skill cap. I believe I stated that train of thought multiple times throughout this thread. With that being said, what I am not for, is what I perceive to be false narratives based on wishful thinking, or circular logic. What I am saying with the football analogy that being faster, and being more technically proficient with the ball are undeniably positive factors that aid a player to achieve greatness. However, being a superior player overall does not auto-matically make you faster, or haver a finer first touch than a player of lesser overall capacity. Messi was never the single greatest athlete (sprinting, stamina etc) on the planet, and although Messi during his prime was the greatest player we have seen in recent times, that doesn't mean that Messi was thoroughly complete and immaculate in every conceivable manner. It isn't blasphemous to suggest that Messi even during his prime was never the greatest athlete in terms of raw stamina, when it is undeniable that having more stamina is an asset that comes in handy. Flash being superior to other players overall speaks very little about his actual ability to manipulate his units to the very highest degree. Just like Messi was once the greatest by some distance without having a bull-like stamina. It is possible to reach a certain godlike status without being actually perfect. Flash is the closest to perfection a human has gotten at the game of Brood War, but he is far from perfect, and that is the beauty of the game. Even Flash can get better, and the fact that he loses games due getting outplayed from a micro-managament perspective counters your argument that micro-management becomes useless after a certain point. Even though no human will ever reach the theoretical skill-cap of this game, it doesn't necessarily mean we have already seen the absolute possible threshold for human capabilities. Flash is the fore-runner thus far, but you and I have very contrasting opinions of what constitutes a perfect player. If it is circular logic and menial complements for Flash that you seek, I'm sorry I am not in agreement that Flash must be perfect because he seems that way in your eyes. Starcraft is non-deterministic, just like chess. Thus there is no single algorithm or human being that can solve non-deterministic problems global optimally if that is what you mean. Perfection here is the way Flash executes the game strategically. He does exactly the right thing at exactly the right time in terms of decision making, and more importantly he is able to repeat that again and again. I understand your point that Flash can be out-microed sometimes but do you think that Flash or any pro player would be outmicroed most of the time by any other pro player. Statistically speaking, I don't think you can draw a conclusion that micromanagement really matters at pro level just based on several examples. Not really. Brood War is more of a multi-faceted craft than chess. The fact that statically speaking Flash usally does not get punished for not quite matching the superlative micro-management abilities found in some of his peers does not mean that micro-management abilities become defunct after a certain point. Just like micro-management abilities were not irrelevant during iloveoov's era when he dominated the scene without having crisp micro-management due to his other extra-ordinary abilities. It speaks more about their other fantastic attributes, rather than micro-management abilities not being relevant at the professional level, which is quite frankly speaking a ludicrous thing to suggest. Statistically speaking, Tyson was incredibly successful at his craft despite his lack of reach compared to some of his peers, due to his outstanding qualities elsewhere. That does not mean reach becomes irrrelevant at the highest level. Excellence can be attained without a perfecting a certain attribute, but that doesn't negate that attribute as a quality worth having. Masking a certain attribute by having amazing capabilities elsewhere can be seen in every walk of life. That is not perfection, that is called playing to your strengths to the best of your abilities. People thought macro-management didn't matter all that much when BoxeR could simply micro-manage you to death. People thought build orders didn't matter all that much when NaDa could simply out muscle you from every mechanical perspective. People thought build orders were all that mattered when iloveoov swept the scene with his superior read on the meta-game.
What? That's not right lol. People have always thought all aspects of SC are important throughout SCs history, least of all the players themselves.
Oo had good micro when he focused on it, eg his marine split, Nada did well with build orders up until Savior era, and Boxer was no slouch in terms of macro either. All these top players are way more balanced than you give them credit for.
In retrospect, none of them were perfect, and I have no problems with pointing out what I perceive to be potential weak points in Flash's overall skill-sets as a competitor, even though as of now, they don't seem to be all that relevant due to his overwhelming success.
The problem is that what you think are weak points are actually conscious decisions to focus on one aspect of the game or another. When Flash explains his games on his stream, he will say xyz matters or not and devote an equivalent amount of attention. Flash is amazing because he rarely gives in to the temptation to overmicro his units to the detriment of multitask or base control, and never lets his multitask take him away from his overarching goal in a game. Maybe this is unlikeable to you because Flash plays to win, not entertain you, in which case too bad so sad... go watch some MOBAs instead.
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On December 04 2017 00:59 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 14:11 Letmelose wrote:On November 22 2017 12:43 kangaroo_in_diaper wrote:On November 21 2017 11:06 Letmelose wrote:On November 21 2017 10:08 kangaroo_in_diaper wrote:
Letmelose have presented very interesting observations, and although I appreciate most of his opinions, I still think he underappreciates Flash in many ways. First, micromanagement is important in the game but at the pro level, I think it does not really matter, as all pro players already have sufficient skills to control their units in the way they want. Of course outstanding micro can sometimes get the audience stunned but in general, it is not smart to spend a large portion of APM to impress the audience. The analogy I can make is basketball. For example, height is very important in basketball, but you don't need to be too tall to play basketball. And after a certain point, height does not really matter. Yao Ming is not as great as Michael Jordan although he is much taller. Similar to height in basketball, after a certain point, I can say that micro skill does not matter at all. In case of Flash, I don't think Flash cannot micro as good as Bisu, just because he is not able to do so. Micromanagement is possible to learn and improve like any other skills by practice (our genes certainly do not know Starcraft). In case of Starcraft, micromanagement consumes APM, and Flash chooses to spend his APM on other actions rather than getting the audience stunned. At the end of the day, what really matters is winning and winning in Starcraft requires a little bit of everything.
Second, the analogy of football is definitely a long shot as there is no race in football. Thus, comparing Jaedong, Bisu and Flash using football are more or less apple vs orange, or perhaps Ronaldo vs Sergio Ramos.
Finally, Flash is perfect and the perfection is indeed boring because there is nothing to expect. Flash always win, there is no surprise, which as a result makes the audience bored. More importantly, Flash is also very stable and not sloppy like any other players. In football there is a saying that "Form is temporary, Class is forever". That is also true in Starcraft.
Brood War is a competitive game, not a performance art. I started off the thread with the stance that nothing outside of competitive results can be considered more significant, whether it is popularity, proficiency at certain aspects of the game, or potential skill cap. I believe I stated that train of thought multiple times throughout this thread. With that being said, what I am not for, is what I perceive to be false narratives based on wishful thinking, or circular logic. What I am saying with the football analogy that being faster, and being more technically proficient with the ball are undeniably positive factors that aid a player to achieve greatness. However, being a superior player overall does not auto-matically make you faster, or haver a finer first touch than a player of lesser overall capacity. Messi was never the single greatest athlete (sprinting, stamina etc) on the planet, and although Messi during his prime was the greatest player we have seen in recent times, that doesn't mean that Messi was thoroughly complete and immaculate in every conceivable manner. It isn't blasphemous to suggest that Messi even during his prime was never the greatest athlete in terms of raw stamina, when it is undeniable that having more stamina is an asset that comes in handy. Flash being superior to other players overall speaks very little about his actual ability to manipulate his units to the very highest degree. Just like Messi was once the greatest by some distance without having a bull-like stamina. It is possible to reach a certain godlike status without being actually perfect. Flash is the closest to perfection a human has gotten at the game of Brood War, but he is far from perfect, and that is the beauty of the game. Even Flash can get better, and the fact that he loses games due getting outplayed from a micro-managament perspective counters your argument that micro-management becomes useless after a certain point. Even though no human will ever reach the theoretical skill-cap of this game, it doesn't necessarily mean we have already seen the absolute possible threshold for human capabilities. Flash is the fore-runner thus far, but you and I have very contrasting opinions of what constitutes a perfect player. If it is circular logic and menial complements for Flash that you seek, I'm sorry I am not in agreement that Flash must be perfect because he seems that way in your eyes. Starcraft is non-deterministic, just like chess. Thus there is no single algorithm or human being that can solve non-deterministic problems global optimally if that is what you mean. Perfection here is the way Flash executes the game strategically. He does exactly the right thing at exactly the right time in terms of decision making, and more importantly he is able to repeat that again and again. I understand your point that Flash can be out-microed sometimes but do you think that Flash or any pro player would be outmicroed most of the time by any other pro player. Statistically speaking, I don't think you can draw a conclusion that micromanagement really matters at pro level just based on several examples. Not really. Brood War is more of a multi-faceted craft than chess. The fact that statically speaking Flash usally does not get punished for not quite matching the superlative micro-management abilities found in some of his peers does not mean that micro-management abilities become defunct after a certain point. Just like micro-management abilities were not irrelevant during iloveoov's era when he dominated the scene without having crisp micro-management due to his other extra-ordinary abilities. It speaks more about their other fantastic attributes, rather than micro-management abilities not being relevant at the professional level, which is quite frankly speaking a ludicrous thing to suggest. Statistically speaking, Tyson was incredibly successful at his craft despite his lack of reach compared to some of his peers, due to his outstanding qualities elsewhere. That does not mean reach becomes irrrelevant at the highest level. Excellence can be attained without a perfecting a certain attribute, but that doesn't negate that attribute as a quality worth having. Masking a certain attribute by having amazing capabilities elsewhere can be seen in every walk of life. That is not perfection, that is called playing to your strengths to the best of your abilities. People thought macro-management didn't matter all that much when BoxeR could simply micro-manage you to death. People thought build orders didn't matter all that much when NaDa could simply out muscle you from every mechanical perspective. People thought build orders were all that mattered when iloveoov swept the scene with his superior read on the meta-game. What? That's not right lol. People have always thought all aspects of SC are important throughout SCs history, least of all the players themselves. Oo had good micro when he focused on it, eg his marine split, Nada did well with build orders up until Savior era, and Boxer was no slouch in terms of macro either. All these top players are way more balanced than you give them credit for. Show nested quote +In retrospect, none of them were perfect, and I have no problems with pointing out what I perceive to be potential weak points in Flash's overall skill-sets as a competitor, even though as of now, they don't seem to be all that relevant due to his overwhelming success.
The problem is that what you think are weak points are actually conscious decisions to focus on one aspect of the game or another. When Flash explains his games on his stream, he will say xyz matters or not and devote an equivalent amount of attention. Flash is amazing because he rarely gives in to the temptation to overmicro his units to the detriment of multitask or base control, and never lets his multitask take him away from his overarching goal in a game. Maybe this is unlikeable to you because Flash plays to win, not entertain you, in which case too bad so sad... go watch some MOBAs instead.
seriously ?
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EPT
