| Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
 Afreeca Starleague Season 4Casters & HostsStreamsEnglish - http://afree.ca/aslenglish (Artosis and Tasteless) English2 - http://afree.ca/aslenglish2 (EsportsJohn and FlashFTW) Espanol - http://afree.ca/scenespanol (JimRising) Polish - http://afree.ca/aslpolish (EmStarcraft) Russian - http://afree.ca/starladder (Kaby) Russian2 - http://afree.ca/psinsintv (Psinsin) Matchups and MapsResultsRecommended Games | ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
On November 11 2017 08:58 AfreecaTVGlobal wrote: ASL Jacket Giveaway AfreecaTV will be giving away white ASL branded jackets as worn by the ASL pro players to the fans! ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/FIa7f1b.png) How to enter: During the live stream of the ASL S4 Finals, two (2) active members of the chat will be randomly selected and contacted the next day via AfreecaTV private message. Participants must be logged in present in the ASL English, ASL English2, SCenEspanol, or ASL Polish chat at the time of the ASL S4 Finals live stream on Sunday 11/12 12PM PST to be eligible to win. Location: Hanyang University Olympic Stadium Hanyang University Station Line 2 East of Exit 2 or 3 via Salgoji-Gil ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/N4q2kCq.png) | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
| ||
|
Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
Terran is the race of big dicked Vikings who rampage across the galaxies in huge battleships, rip up the ground with artillery spawned from the forges of hell, and send waves of valiant warriors to fight the freaks of science. Valhalla awaits... | ||
|
chaosTheory_14cc
Canada1270 Posts
| ||
|
739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
| ||
|
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
| ||
|
r33k
Italy3402 Posts
Could OP be edited so clicking on map pictures links to the liquipedia page for the map rather than the uploaded picture? | ||
|
chuDr3t4
Russian Federation484 Posts
On November 11 2017 19:56 r33k wrote: Could OP be edited so clicking on map pictures links to the liquipedia page for the map rather than the uploaded picture? If I understand correctly, it's an integration embed directly from LP page. You can click map names above pictures. HERO 3-2 I BELIEVE!! | ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
| ||
|
KobraKay
Portugal4219 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
On November 11 2017 19:56 r33k wrote: Flash 3-0. Could OP be edited so clicking on map pictures links to the liquipedia page for the map rather than the uploaded picture? nah can't be edited that way but, click on the name instead of the picture. | ||
|
Piste
6167 Posts
| ||
|
superjoppe
Sweden3682 Posts
| ||
|
Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
6 pool rush, gg noob. herO 1 - 0 Flash Game 2: Gold Rush Macro midgame battle, SK terran vs. lurker ling. Flash kills herO before Hive. herO 1 - 1 Flash Game 3: Gladiator herO unleashes the mythical hundred-mutalisk build! herO 2 - 1 Flash Game 4: Fighting Spirit Flash camps on two bases with turrets. herO is on 6 bases... then loses to mech push and double drops. herO 2 - 2 Flash Game 5: Crossing Fields Palms sweaty, knees weak, arms are heavy There's vomit on his keyboard already - mom's bulgogi! build build build, fight fight fight, and herO wins!!! herO 3 - 2 Flash fight me! | ||
|
SOMAA
29 Posts
On November 11 2017 21:41 Twinkle Toes wrote: Game 5: Crossing Fields Palms sweaty, knees weak, arms are heavy There's vomit on his keyboard already - mom's bulgogi! build build build, fight fight fight, and herO wins!!! herO 3 - 2 Flash fight me! hahaha nice one | ||
|
_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
| ||
|
orvinreyes
577 Posts
| ||
|
asel
Germany1599 Posts
| ||
|
iamho
United States3347 Posts
| ||
|
Ty2
United States1434 Posts
| ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
| ||
|
Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
On November 12 2017 06:58 BigFan wrote: Hero got this. Today, Flash will lose! Truth! | ||
Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
Please spread the word if so or a lot of people will tune in 2 hours late and will be heavily disappointed... | ||
|
ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
| ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 12 2017 08:04 Peeano wrote: Time to air is set 2 hours earlier. Was that a correction or am I being delusional? Please spread the word if so or a lot of people will tune in 2 hours late and will be heavily disappointed... That's what the Afreeca rep wrote in other thread so calendar was adjusted afaik. | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/paIdD6Q.jpg) Artosis has mentioned in the last ASL broadcast you can come as early as 10:00 KST if you want your tickets for the event. | ||
|
StarscreamG1
Portugal1652 Posts
| ||
|
xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
On November 12 2017 09:10 StarscreamG1 wrote: BO5 is it normal? I want more games :\ It's normal and good! | ||
|
Archers_bane
United States1338 Posts
| ||
|
usopsama
6502 Posts
| ||
|
bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
From result final worlds 2017 of LOL game, nobody is able to achieve 3 champions continually and Flash also isn't exception. | ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
| ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On November 12 2017 16:19 Golgotha wrote: Would this be the biggest upset in BW history if hero wins? in my opinion, yes. | ||
|
Duckvillelol
Australia1239 Posts
| ||
|
XiaoJoyce-
China2908 Posts
Feel like so long watch Flash finals!! ALthough this June I just watch...but that final is so 1 sided so short!! I hope this final is longer lasting, Omg TvZ again  . I scare short game like last season....Noo, it will be good and I really hope Flash win again!! | ||
|
DracoMortuiVolantus
68 Posts
and back in time, biggest upset in history was when effort took out flash with freacking REVERSE ALL-KILL (I know there were only two players and this word is used elsewhere but for flash's sake, i miss all-kills and reverse all-kills more than anything in this world) | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On November 12 2017 16:50 DracoMortuiVolantus wrote: Hero will take this out of Flash's mouth only if he does not believe he can win and back in time, biggest upset in history was when effort took out flash with freacking REVERSE ALL-KILL (I know there were only two players and this word is used elsewhere but for flash's sake, i miss all-kills and reverse all-kills more than anything in this world) the all kill was a huge upset yes, but in overall skill level between the two players, it was no where near the separation of flash vs hero | ||
|
r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
| ||
GTR
51397 Posts
| ||
|
Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
| ||
|
GTR
51397 Posts
| ||
|
ddengster
Singapore129 Posts
| ||
|
Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
9. | ||
|
gngfn
United States1726 Posts
| ||
|
XiaoJoyce-
China2908 Posts
 | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
| ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:05 Ziggy wrote: Such a shame Larva lost to hero, he'd have a much better chance of beating Flash I don't think it really matters, in the end Flash will win anyway ;p | ||
|
epjx31
United Kingdom324 Posts
| ||
|
ddengster
Singapore129 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:09 ddengster wrote: can anyone access the stream? it's still showing me the get adobe flash screen, didn't they switch to html5 by now? | ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
They do, something is wrong with your browser. | ||
|
goody153
44064 Posts
| ||
|
TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:14 Kaolla wrote: I don't think it really matters, in the end Flash will win anyway ;p Why do you say this? I don't think the statistics show larva has a better win rate than hero against flash. If they do, then it would be awesome if you would provide them when making such bold claims | ||
|
goody153
44064 Posts
do a hard refresh(clear cache etc) | ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:18 goody153 wrote: completely trivial stuff .. is it just me or flash looks fatter ? or maybe it's just his jacket all of them got a bit fatter | ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
| ||
|
goody153
44064 Posts
i guess streaming does that to you lol | ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
| ||
|
r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
| ||
|
Netto.
Poland523 Posts
| ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:15 epjx31 wrote: hero please take the 1st game to make things interesting hero please win, even if you have to play the scrappiest games ever! hero fighting! ~ | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
| ||
|
Rollora
2450 Posts
| ||
|
Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
| ||
|
Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:25 Rollora wrote: Srsly only 20k Viewers? There are restreams, currently ~70k total, but yeah, not the ~280k the final between Flash and Sea got. Still, it's only just started. | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:26 Ziggy wrote: Hope we get some ASL5 announcements right after the finals, I think they hinted the following season might be held straight after this one concludes. ya, they said it should be straight after but honestly, a ATB would be a cooler idea imo. Trying a PL approach if possible. | ||
|
goody153
44064 Posts
| ||
|
Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:26 BigFan wrote: ya, they said it should be straight after but honestly, a ATB would be a cooler idea imo. Trying a PL approach if possible. I was hoping they would roll with the idea of a clan league, the showmatch between moo and neox seemed to draw quite the audience. | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:27 goody153 wrote: how's the current tvz ? is it still bio into mech ? yep though depending on map (Andromeda last season), terran would go SK Terran but its mostly +1 5 rax or 4 rax valk into mech for Flash depending on map and opponent. | ||
|
juvenal
2448 Posts
| ||
|
True_Spike
Poland3415 Posts
| ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
| ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:30 juvenal wrote: Flash looks like he doesn't feel too well... probably nervous. He really wants that 3-3-3 and I'm sure he respects hero's skills too. | ||
|
bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
Flash 3 - 2 Hero | ||
|
sAw
965 Posts
| ||
|
bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:35 BigFan wrote: probably nervous. He really wants that 3-3-3 and I'm sure he respects hero's skills too. 3-3-3 what means? | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
3 osl, 3 msl, 3 asl | ||
|
juvenal
2448 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/NMb7O2j.png) | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
| ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
| ||
|
paradigmsort
Canada10 Posts
| ||
|
CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
| ||
|
Ej_
47656 Posts
don't think herO can survive this time  | ||
|
r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
| ||
|
Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
| ||
|
feckless
1099 Posts
| ||
|
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
| ||
|
CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
| ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
| ||
|
XiaoJoyce-
China2908 Posts
| ||
|
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
| ||
|
_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
| ||
|
Navane
Netherlands2744 Posts
| ||
|
Navane
Netherlands2744 Posts
| ||
|
CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:43 Navane wrote: How did they open? I'm just tuning in. Proxy 8 rax vs 3 hatch before pool | ||
|
XiaoJoyce-
China2908 Posts
| ||
|
r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:43 Navane wrote: How did they open? I'm just tuning in. Hero 3x hatch before pool, Flash proxy rax. | ||
|
Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
| ||
|
Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
| ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
| ||
|
Rollora
2450 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:44 Ziggy wrote: ~100k viewers total atm Where can u see those numbers? I only know how to look at what TL says and there its 35k | ||
|
Rollora
2450 Posts
| ||
|
b0lt
United States790 Posts
| ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
| ||
|
WiMa11
38 Posts
| ||
|
CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
| ||
|
RJGooner
United States2038 Posts
| ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:48 Dante08 wrote: Hero if you're going 3 hatch before pool at least send a drone to scout... x1000 this made me mad >.> Flash was known for cheese and hates this map like mad. Why try to be so greedy against him here? ;; | ||
|
valaki
Hungary2476 Posts
| ||
|
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
| ||
|
_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
BRUTALITY! | ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
| ||
|
Netto.
Poland523 Posts
| ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:49 BigFan wrote: x1000 this made me mad >.> Flash was known for cheese and hates this map like mad. Why try to be so greedy against him here? ;; Yeah that made ZERO SENSE whatsoever on a 2 player map. And Flash is known for mixing it up once in awhile. Just awful | ||
|
sAw
965 Posts
| ||
|
feckless
1099 Posts
| ||
|
jtan
Sweden5891 Posts
| ||
|
Sasquatch
Canada126 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:50 Dante08 wrote: Yeah that made ZERO SENSE whatsoever on a 2 player map. And Flash is known for mixing it up once in awhile. Just awful hero deserved that loss. | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:50 Dante08 wrote: Yeah that made ZERO SENSE whatsoever on a 2 player map. And Flash is known for mixing it up once in awhile. Just awful exactly. Freaking ... On November 12 2017 17:50 Netto. wrote: That was brutal. Hero is probably gonna choke. I am expecting quick 3-0 now. ya, I'm expecting this too now but I'll keep cheering for hero. First game in a bo series is so important for the mindset. This likely detroyed hero's mental state... | ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:49 valaki wrote: lmao @ the guys who though hero would be just as good as Bisu, SK or Larva. Now you get a 1 hour 3-0 show. Yea this totally couldn't have happened to anyone else... just a cheese loss, those tend to go fast. And let's not pretend pretend bisu put on a show... he had 0 chance as well and looked like a noob in all games vs flash... Same probably goes for the other two... | ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:51 jtan wrote: Amazing defence from hero though, he lost almost no drones with 3 hatch vs proxy 8rax. He could totally have beaten a lesser player. How was that amazing defence lol, he let the marines get up the ramp uncontested and let Flash build a bunker in his mineral line. He should have tried drone drilling when the marines went up the ramp. The moment those marines got behind the mineral line it was over. | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:49 valaki wrote: lmao @ the guys who though hero would be just as good as Bisu, SK or Larva. Now you get a 1 hour 3-0 show. having a build order loss doesnt mean anything...... why are people so quick to circlejerk against hero? he knows this map is a very eco heavy map, he wanted an advantage to counter 14cc which is what he thought flash was going to do. do i agree with no drone scout? no. but he went for a metagame call and it didnt pay off. | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:54 FlaShFTW wrote: having a build order loss doesnt mean anything...... why are people so quick to circlejerk against hero? he knows this map is a very eco heavy map, he wanted an advantage to counter 14cc which is what he thought flash was going to do. do i agree with no drone scout? no. but he went for a metagame call and it didnt pay off. forgot that hero was your #2 choice a while back haha | ||
|
xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:53 Dante08 wrote: How was that amazing defence lol, he let the marines get up the ramp uncontested and let Flash build a bunker in his mineral line. He should have tried drone drilling when the marines went up the ramp. The moment those marines got behind the mineral line it was over. He can only drill if he has an overlord near minerals. I'm not sure, but I don't think he did at the time? I could just be making excuses for him though. | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
| ||
|
XiaoJoyce-
China2908 Posts
| ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:55 BigFan wrote: forgot that hero was your #2 choice a while back haha hell yeah. back when his ZvT wasnt total trash lol | ||
|
jtan
Sweden5891 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:53 Dante08 wrote: How was that amazing defence lol, he let the marines get up the ramp uncontested and let Flash build a bunker in his mineral line. He should have tried drone drilling when the marines went up the ramp. The moment those marines got behind the mineral line it was over. I expected hero to gg when he saw two marines and had no pool, but he did the best he could under the circumstances, he didn't even die to the vulture/wraith follow up. | ||
|
r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:56 BigFan wrote: Wait, is that Reach? ...you didn't notice the sudden surge of testosterone just by watching this? | ||
|
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
| ||
|
Zabimaru
United Kingdom132 Posts
| ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:55 xccam wrote: He can only drill if he has an overlord near minerals. I'm not sure, but I don't think he did at the time? I could just be making excuses for him though. no, you're right. His OL was far to the left, over the cliff. Not in vision of minerals. On November 12 2017 17:56 FlaShFTW wrote: hell yeah. back when his ZvT wasnt total trash lol So, what you're saying is, you only supported hero because his ZvT was good but when his form dipped, you abandoned ship? | ||
|
negativedge
4279 Posts
| ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:57 r.Evo wrote: ...you didn't notice the sudden surge of testosterone just by watching this? haha well ~ | ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:55 xccam wrote: He can only drill if he has an overlord near minerals. I'm not sure, but I don't think he did at the time? I could just be making excuses for him though. Pretty sure he didnt have vision as his drones were bumping into each other... so yea no vision or he just didnt use it (which i cant imagine)... | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:57 BigFan wrote: no, you're right. His OL was far to the left, over the cliff. Not in vision of minerals. So, what you're saying is, you only supported hero because his ZvT was good but when his form dipped, you abandoned ship? ofc not i still love hero. i still think his ZvT style was super innovative and good against older terran builds | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
Any KRs around that want to translate what Reach and Sharp said, TL;DR? | ||
|
jjmmtt
Australia995 Posts
On November 12 2017 17:53 Dante08 wrote: How was that amazing defence lol, he let the marines get up the ramp uncontested and let Flash build a bunker in his mineral line. He should have tried drone drilling when the marines went up the ramp. The moment those marines got behind the mineral line it was over. You can't try something as weak as that against Flash. He leads with the SCV to go highground and has a bunker behind him that he can walk towards, he's going to see a drone drill coming and has 4 marines. The slightest of micro by Flash and he just kills all the drones. Hero respected Flash's skill by NOT trying that. | ||
|
r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:00 BigFan wrote: ^ well, guess #1 vs #2, hero has no chance to grab your heart Any KRs around that want to translate what Reach and Sharp said, TL;DR? Gist I got from the main stream was Reach being a fan of FlaSh, Sharp being a fan of herO and Stargirl trying to get Reach to take her out to dinner. | ||
|
Valikyr
Sweden2653 Posts
| ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
| ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:03 r.Evo wrote: Gist I got from the main stream was Reach being a fan of FlaSh, Sharp being a fan of herO and Stargirl trying to get Reach to take her out to dinner. haha well, guess as expected | ||
|
Terrorbladder
2713 Posts
| ||
|
xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:03 BigFan wrote: Where are all the hero fans? Cmon guys! hero fighting ~~~~ I'm here for hero, Fighting~! | ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
| ||
|
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
| ||
|
ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
| ||
|
Good1
Russian Federation138 Posts
| ||
|
r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
e: nvm | ||
|
ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
| ||
|
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
| ||
|
True_Spike
Poland3415 Posts
| ||
|
Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
Edit: Not that I don't enjoy FlaSh's super high level play, I just wish we had a better challenge for him here | ||
|
jtan
Sweden5891 Posts
| ||
|
nurle
Norway308 Posts
| ||
|
Terrorbladder
2713 Posts
| ||
|
r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
| ||
|
Sorusaba
272 Posts
Hoping at least one game for herO for a more interesting finals, come on! | ||
|
xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
| ||
|
RJGooner
United States2038 Posts
| ||
|
CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
| ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
| ||
|
xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:15 Terrorbladder wrote: 1 base terran meme Flash had 2 bases. | ||
|
Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:13 Good1 wrote: Why did hero take this base? Seems super silly Or why not kill one of the assimilators? | ||
|
gngfn
United States1726 Posts
| ||
|
Dantak
Czech Republic648 Posts
Yup :/ | ||
|
Good1
Russian Federation138 Posts
| ||
|
CoL_DarkstaR
Germany649 Posts
i hate Soulkey for winning over Larva who would have put up a much better fight in ZvT | ||
|
Just_a_Moth
Canada1948 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:16 Dante08 wrote: Those who really thought Hero had a chance... At least now he has a chance to 3-2 Flash. | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:14 blade55555 wrote: Close to defend, but not sure why he took that third in the first place... This series went about how I expected, congrats Flash! ya seems really odd to me. Was he thinking he can keep funneling units through? Heck, he had no defense at that base other than a single spore. Maybe he should've teched to hive, got faster defilers to defend it or something. | ||
|
Kleinmuuhg
Vanuatu4091 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:14 Wolf wrote: Flash unfortunately just 3x better than herO; another one-sided ASL finals :/ Edit: Not that I don't enjoy FlaSh's super high level play, I just wish we had a better challenge for him here exactly how i see it | ||
|
gngfn
United States1726 Posts
| ||
|
Netto.
Poland523 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:17 Just_a_Moth wrote: At least now he has a chance to 3-2 Flash. hahahah that made me seriously laugh :D | ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
| ||
|
arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
| ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:16 CoL_DarkstaR wrote: just the boring stomp everyone was expecting i hate Soulkey for winning over Larva who would have put up a much better fight in ZvT umm hero beat Larva, not SK. SK was also beaten by hero. | ||
|
legaton
France1763 Posts
| ||
|
Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
We really needed effort, he's the only one who can seriously beat flash. | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:18 legaton wrote: Damn, i miss the first match. What did Flash do? proxy 8 rax vs 3 hatch before pool | ||
|
Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
| ||
|
Valikyr
Sweden2653 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:16 Good1 wrote: Well unfortunate that there are no rivals to Flash. Not interesting to watch it like that( It discounts how amazingly good all players in ASL are when Flash makes them look like this. | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:18 legaton wrote: Damn, i miss the first match. What did Flash do? proxy 8 rax vs 3 hatch before pool. easily flash wins | ||
|
legaton
France1763 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:18 legaton wrote: Damn, i miss the first match. What did Flash do? proxy 8 rax vs 3 hatch before pool[/QUOTE] Well, i guess that explains why i miss it | ||
|
XiaoJoyce-
China2908 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:18 arbiter_md wrote: Somebody in the editorial for this finals predicted 3-2 for Hero? Guess everything goes according to that plan so far! Maybe the plan will fall apart in next game | ||
|
arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
| ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:15 Terrorbladder wrote: 1 base terran meme he literally expands while getting his starport. what do you mean? | ||
|
FataLe
New Zealand4492 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:18 legaton wrote: Damn, i miss the first match. What did Flash do? flash did 8 rax proxy vs 3 hatch before pool hero almost held | ||
|
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
| ||
|
RJGooner
United States2038 Posts
| ||
|
AManHasNoName
United States165 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:21 FataLe wrote: flash did 8 rax proxy vs 3 hatch before pool hero almost held In what universe did this "almost hold" happen in? | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
| ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
| ||
|
gamapg
Philippines189 Posts
> went on afreeca > caught game 2's midgame stomp > meh just gonna sit here to watch game 3 cuz it's not gonna last more than 15 mins (REVERSE PSYCHOLOGY, SECRETLY HOPING IT LASTS INTO QUEEN VS MECH ZVT) > still sitting here with just a towel waiting for game 3 to start... | ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:21 FataLe wrote: flash did 8 rax proxy vs 3 hatch before pool hero almost held he didnt almost hold, he didn't die but he was way behind all game with pretty much 0 chance to win unless flash would get a heart attack or something like that... | ||
|
arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
| ||
|
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:20 arbiter_md wrote: At least Flash dominance will make a pause when he goes to army. Two years later he comes back and everybody's screwed again! Without Flash, any and all discussion about tesagi will end. And if Flash goes while Bisu is also out, get ready for ZvZ final after ZvZ final | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
| ||
|
jjmmtt
Australia995 Posts
| ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:23 arbiter_md wrote: Hero still has a chance. The finals against Effort comes to mind. nah man. flash won't drop 3 games in a row. that's impossible. | ||
|
Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:24 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: Without Flash, any and all discussion about tesagi will end. And if Flash goes while Bisu is also out, get ready for ZvZ final after ZvZ final this lol | ||
|
gamapg
Philippines189 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:24 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: Without Flash, any and all discussion about tesagi will end. And if Flash goes while Bisu is also out, get ready for ZvZ final after ZvZ final .... *ahem GET HYPED ZvZ FINALSSSSS 30 MINUTES and all 5 games would've been played already | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
I'd rather Flash didn't go until he is beaten by some. Him leaving makes it looks really bad, aka, everyone else only wins after he left... | ||
|
r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
| ||
|
-NegativeZero-
United States2141 Posts
| ||
|
De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:24 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: Without Flash, any and all discussion about tesagi will end. And if Flash goes while Bisu is also out, get ready for ZvZ final after ZvZ final Zesagi!!! | ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
| ||
|
gamapg
Philippines189 Posts
| ||
|
Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
| ||
|
Terrorbladder
2713 Posts
| ||
|
ortseam
996 Posts
| ||
|
r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
| ||
|
chaosTheory_14cc
Canada1270 Posts
| ||
|
NeoFlash
21 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
| ||
|
Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
| ||
|
ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
| ||
|
gamapg
Philippines189 Posts
| ||
|
Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
| ||
|
r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
| ||
|
Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
| ||
|
ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
| ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
edit: maybe a bit early ^_^, herO not out yet. | ||
|
r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
e: 3k oo | ||
|
Ej_
47656 Posts
| ||
|
gngfn
United States1726 Posts
| ||
|
ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
he held up all the production and supply with those drops and then dealt damage around the map | ||
|
xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
| ||
|
Dantak
Czech Republic648 Posts
| ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:46 gngfn wrote: Flash seems totally unable to deal with... mass zergling? Seems like lol. | ||
|
gamapg
Philippines189 Posts
HERO YOU BEAST *EDIT WE NEVER PICKED UP ON EFFORT's effort in KOREA OSL... ZERGLINGS ARE FLASH'S WEAKNESS | ||
|
Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
| ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
| ||
|
jtan
Sweden5891 Posts
| ||
|
Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
| ||
|
True_Spike
Poland3415 Posts
| ||
|
Burned Toast
Canada2040 Posts
| ||
|
r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
| ||
|
Terrorbladder
2713 Posts
| ||
|
gngfn
United States1726 Posts
| ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
| ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
| ||
|
odeSSa
Sweden198 Posts
| ||
|
CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
| ||
|
xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
-Hero | ||
|
Ej_
47656 Posts
| ||
|
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
That drop timing. | ||
|
Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
| ||
|
paradigmsort
Canada10 Posts
| ||
|
legaton
France1763 Posts
| ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
| ||
|
ducanhng
12 Posts
| ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia12958 Posts
| ||
|
Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
| ||
|
Sorusaba
272 Posts
| ||
|
Amui
Canada10567 Posts
Hero just managed to squeak by and just hang on with the drops and a few lings to slowly pick flash apart. | ||
|
sAw
965 Posts
| ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
| ||
|
Just_a_Moth
Canada1948 Posts
| ||
|
XiaoJoyce-
China2908 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:20 XiaoJoyce- wrote: Maybe the plan will fall apart in next game Omg....My perfect 3:0 Flash score is gone Q.Q | ||
|
Piste
6167 Posts
What a crazy game. | ||
|
gravity
Australia1792 Posts
| ||
|
ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
| ||
|
Netto.
Poland523 Posts
| ||
|
razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
| ||
|
Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
| ||
|
XiaoJoyce-
China2908 Posts
| ||
|
xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
epjx31
United Kingdom324 Posts
| ||
|
Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
| ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
| ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
| ||
|
StimD
Norway738 Posts
| ||
|
XiaoJoyce-
China2908 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:47 legaton wrote: What an amazing come back, i'm happy i'm watching BW instead of doing work for tomorrow. Hahahahaha we are same thinking | ||
|
r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
| ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
| ||
|
Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
| ||
|
feckless
1099 Posts
| ||
|
Netto.
Poland523 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:49 Dante08 wrote: Those continuous drops were crucial, Flash's units were stuck in the main for a long time and he couldn't reinforce his other bases in time. Also flash got supply blocked, lost some machine shops so he couldn't tank up. Great strategy by hero. | ||
|
bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
| ||
|
jtan
Sweden5891 Posts
| ||
|
Just_a_Moth
Canada1948 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:48 Greg_J wrote: Great job hero... apparently. Since I can't see anything Stream not working for you? Best is watching a stream of the finals, might work for you to watch that way. | ||
|
CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
| ||
|
arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
| ||
|
epjx31
United Kingdom324 Posts
| ||
|
Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
| ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:49 Heartland wrote: I can't wait to read the analysis of this game. hero did a great job of securing the 3rd very quickly. he sacrificed some eco to get it up by building extra sunkens but it was well worth it, he could get defilers out faster with a faster hive timing and his muta micro was excellent to stop flash's 9 minute push. after that, non stop aggression with dropping into flash's main with overlords. after he killed off the first wave of turrets, he knew therew as nothing to stop drops and continued to force flash to defend cost inefficiently in his main. once all of flash's units were busy defending the main and also supply blocking flash, he could send endless streams of lings to flash's 11 and 9 bases to stop the mining. excellent strategy and game from hero. | ||
|
gamapg
Philippines189 Posts
*edit It might take a.....HERO(?) | ||
|
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
| ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:50 jtan wrote: It looked totally over while flash was delaying hero's fourth with a big supply lead, impressive comeback! hero managed to secure the 4th at the 6. he knew that if he didnt put more pressure on flash that he couldnt defend it. so he went for a continuous attack on flash to secure it. | ||
|
Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:51 FlaShFTW wrote: hero did a great job of securing the 3rd very quickly. he sacrificed some eco to get it up by building extra sunkens but it was well worth it, he could get defilers out faster with a faster hive timing and his muta micro was excellent to stop flash's 9 minute push. after that, non stop aggression with dropping into flash's main with overlords. after he killed off the first wave of turrets, he knew therew as nothing to stop drops and continued to force flash to defend cost inefficiently in his main. once all of flash's units were busy defending the main and also supply blocking flash, he could send endless streams of lings to flash's 11 and 9 bases to stop the mining. excellent strategy and game from hero. but how come he could turn 60 supply around? | ||
|
Chux
Peru255 Posts
| ||
|
bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
All of server from Korea to Euro, Aisa, West US,... Terran is on the top. | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:53 Heartland wrote: but how come he could turn 60 supply around? because most of the supply from flash was in his main when he went for the attacks on the top left. and flash couldnt reinforce well because most of his facts were getting camped by lings under swarm and he had lost a lot of machine shops so no tanks. and supply blocked which meant hero could maintain supply while flash would continue to fall in supply. | ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:51 Heartland wrote: I didn't see any mines that game, wasn't that odd? there were plenty though, except at the end i guess, probably because flash just had no time putting them there and was under attack everywhere... | ||
|
gamapg
Philippines189 Posts
| ||
|
Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:53 bovienchien wrote: We need a hero to save SCR. Exactly that's Hero ^^! All of server from Korea to Euro, Aisa, West US,... Terran is on the top. I invite you to watch the ogn supermatch... | ||
|
nanaoei
3358 Posts
| ||
|
epjx31
United Kingdom324 Posts
| ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
| ||
|
Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:53 Heartland wrote: but how come he could turn 60 supply around? Lurkers under swarm in Flash's main are very cost effective. | ||
|
nanaoei
3358 Posts
you'll see this at other esports events too. | ||
|
Piste
6167 Posts
![[image loading]](https://s8.postimg.org/roqmmgzcl/hero.png) Come on HerO you can do it | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:54 Kaolla wrote: there were plenty though, except at the end i guess, probably because flash just had no time putting them there and was under attack everywhere... ya, hero was clearing them out afaik. When hero couldn't hold that fourth, I was afraid it was over. 3 vs 3 base but hero hit the right timing with the drops and multipronged attacks. | ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
| ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
| ||
|
lastride
2390 Posts
| ||
|
gngfn
United States1726 Posts
| ||
|
KobraKay
Portugal4219 Posts
But now, to make almost everyone's prediction right...lets go flash! 3-1! | ||
|
gamapg
Philippines189 Posts
| ||
|
GTR
51397 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:57 nanaoei wrote: the sides aren't full because there aren't screens on the side. you'll see this at other esports events too. yes, they usually assign side seating to the press who want to watch the games away from the press room. | ||
|
xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
| ||
|
r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
LETS GO HERO | ||
|
nanaoei
3358 Posts
| ||
|
bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
| ||
|
xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
On November 12 2017 18:59 r.Evo wrote: I want 5 games and a Flash win. LETS GO HERO I want 5 games and a Hero win. LETS GO HERO | ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
| ||
|
CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:02 Golgotha wrote: my resolution won't change from medium. do i have to pay to change to source? I didn't pay for anything and it's giving me source no problem. | ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:03 CakeSauc3 wrote: I didn't pay for anything and it's giving me source no problem. thanks! | ||
|
gamapg
Philippines189 Posts
oh my.... I don't feel a game 5 comingg......* NVM I'm dumb it's lurkers... | ||
|
superjoppe
Sweden3682 Posts
| ||
|
bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:02 Golgotha wrote: my resolution won't change from medium. do i have to pay to change to source? http://play.afreecatv.com/aslenglish It's free to change quality video, I am using high quality and it's not lag. | ||
|
r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
| ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
| ||
|
Ej_
47656 Posts
| ||
|
xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
| ||
|
CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
| ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
| ||
|
xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
| ||
|
Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
| ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia12958 Posts
| ||
|
feckless
1099 Posts
| ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
| ||
|
Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
| ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
| ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia12958 Posts
| ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
| ||
|
CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
| ||
|
Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
| ||
|
xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
GG, well done flash | ||
|
GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
| ||
|
superjoppe
Sweden3682 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:10 NoS-Craig wrote: Man this is tense. 50 vs 100 supply tense? | ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia12958 Posts
| ||
|
iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4329 Posts
| ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
| ||
|
lastride
2390 Posts
| ||
|
xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:11 Golgotha wrote: if hero can get some good defiler action, maybe. nope | ||
|
GTR
51397 Posts
| ||
|
fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3996 Posts
| ||
|
XiaoJoyce-
China2908 Posts
| ||
|
Piste
6167 Posts
GG's. | ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
| ||
|
gamapg
Philippines189 Posts
| ||
|
xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
| ||
|
fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3996 Posts
| ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
| ||
|
nurle
Norway308 Posts
| ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
| ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
| ||
|
XiaoJoyce-
China2908 Posts
| ||
|
GTR
51397 Posts
| ||
|
chaosTheory_14cc
Canada1270 Posts
| ||
|
Hikki_Hibiki1
12 Posts
| ||
|
gngfn
United States1726 Posts
| ||
|
jtan
Sweden5891 Posts
| ||
|
CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
| ||
|
True_Spike
Poland3415 Posts
| ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
| ||
|
feckless
1099 Posts
| ||
|
Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
| ||
|
paradigmsort
Canada10 Posts
| ||
|
r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
Big respect to hero, taking that stand in game 3 was amazing. <3 | ||
|
Chux
Peru255 Posts
| ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
| ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
| ||
|
gngfn
United States1726 Posts
| ||
|
fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3996 Posts
| ||
|
KobraKay
Portugal4219 Posts
| ||
|
Amui
Canada10567 Posts
| ||
|
merz
Sweden2760 Posts
The Ultimate weapon. God. FLASH! | ||
|
Sorusaba
272 Posts
| ||
|
virpi
Germany3598 Posts
| ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
| ||
|
Netto.
Poland523 Posts
| ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
Relax man Congratulations to Flash once again. 3 ASL is just awesome. | ||
|
SkelA
Macedonia13021 Posts
| ||
|
xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:16 True_Spike wrote: That must have been a tough reality check for anyone thinking hero has a chance. Nope, I stand by what I said, HerO definitely had a chance and gave us a good game 3. Having a chance =! likely to win. | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
| ||
|
CoL_DarkstaR
Germany649 Posts
| ||
|
xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:17 SkelA wrote: Wait its over? I thought i was like under 1 hour late only for stream. more like 2 hours. | ||
|
GTR
51397 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Manifesto7/ShinHan3OSLQuarters/nadaibelievelc4.gif) | ||
|
CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:17 SkelA wrote: Wait its over? I thought i was like under 1 hour late only for stream. They started earlier today than in the past. | ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:18 FlaShFTW wrote: think about it, what if hero had just 1 more lurker at the high ground. theres a reason most zergs get 3 lurkers these days atthe 3rd and its because of that +1 armor upgrade taht allows terran to walk up ramps... Pretty sure Flash didn't have + 1 armor. Terrans have just gotten very good at busting ramps with 2 lurkers. 3 lurkers on the other hand no way you are getting up. | ||
|
SkelA
Macedonia13021 Posts
Daylight savings shennanigans ... | ||
|
Piste
6167 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:17 Golgotha wrote: Flash is the Bonjwa right? the best Bonjwa ever right? No doubt! Some JD fans might try to argue about the past but even they know the truth in the back of their minds. | ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:18 FlaShFTW wrote: think about it, what if hero had just 1 more lurker at the high ground. theres a reason most zergs get 3 lurkers these days atthe 3rd and its because of that +1 armor upgrade taht allows terran to walk up ramps... he was building it, but was just slightly too late... wonder why he didnt keep the muta up there tho, that would've helped a bit i guess... not sure why he was flying them around... | ||
|
sAw
965 Posts
| ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
| ||
|
CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
| ||
|
feckless
1099 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:18 FlaShFTW wrote: think about it, what if hero had just 1 more lurker at the high ground. theres a reason most zergs get 3 lurkers these days atthe 3rd and its because of that +1 armor upgrade taht allows terran to walk up ramps... I think the other factor may have been absence of his mutas from that crucial engagement. | ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
| ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
| ||
|
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
| ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:19 Dante08 wrote: Pretty sure Flash didn't have + 1 armor. Terrans have just gotten very good at busting ramps with 2 lurkers. 3 lurkers on the other hand no way you are getting up. go back and watch. his marines survived two lurker spines. you dont break up a ramp without +1 armor on marines. | ||
|
KobraKay
Portugal4219 Posts
| ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:20 feckless wrote: I think the other factor may have been absence of his mutas from that crucial engagement. that too. but still i think its inexcusable for zergs to now have 3 lurkers at the top of the ramp especially if they know 5 rax is coming because of the armor upgrade. | ||
|
MyOneTaps
2 Posts
| ||
|
Sorusaba
272 Posts
| ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:22 Sorusaba wrote: Isn't Flash known for also being extremely good with off-race, too? That'd be crazy cool if he race changed well we know flashs off race protoss is better than bisus off race terran lol. | ||
|
Angra
United States2652 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:18 CoL_DarkstaR wrote: Larva vs Flash would've been a killer matchup, but not Hero. Sorry boys. Good game 3 though lol good one. It would have been over in the same amount of time. Maybe Larva shouldn't have lost if he was supposed to be the better zerg. | ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:20 Piste wrote: No doubt! Some JD fans might try to argue about the past but even they know the truth in the back of their minds. yeah I love JD, but Flash's achievements have reached far beyond space | ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:21 FlaShFTW wrote: go back and watch. his marines survived two lurker spines. you dont break up a ramp without +1 armor on marines. Must be lurker spines hitting different marines, +1 armor doesn't finish that fast, at that timing he would have just finished +1 attack not too long ago. | ||
|
juvenal
2448 Posts
| ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:22 FlaShFTW wrote: that too. but still i think its inexcusable for zergs to now have 3 lurkers at the top of the ramp especially if they know 5 rax is coming because of the armor upgrade. he only had 2 hydras there cause he had to build them early, after that no chance to still walk them there, when his hatch at that location finished he built a hydra with the first egg, but it was just too late already then... | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:23 Dante08 wrote: Must be lurker spines hitting different marines, +1 armor doesn't finish that fast, at that timing he would have just finished +1 attack not too long ago. like i said, go back and watch. +1 5 rax hits very very fast. +1 armor if started immediately after would also be relatively fast. there was a reason flash never attacked up the ramp for a long time. | ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
| ||
|
GTR
51397 Posts
| ||
|
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
| ||
|
CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
| ||
|
negativedge
4279 Posts
| ||
|
r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
| ||
|
chaosTheory_14cc
Canada1270 Posts
| ||
|
Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
| ||
|
niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:22 Sorusaba wrote: Isn't Flash known for also being extremely good with off-race, too? That'd be crazy cool if he race changed 'extremely good' still doesnt mean anywhere near ASL participant level. | ||
|
NeoFlash
21 Posts
| ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
| ||
|
Alvis
876 Posts
| ||
|
jtan
Sweden5891 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:20 feckless wrote: I think the other factor may have been absence of his mutas from that crucial engagement. Yeah, flash waited for the perfect window - mutas were away and just before the third lurker arrived from the new hatchery | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
| ||
|
XiaoJoyce-
China2908 Posts
What is the word..? Tribute to flash ! yeaaaa | ||
|
synapse
China13814 Posts
| ||
|
epjx31
United Kingdom324 Posts
| ||
|
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
| ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21242 Posts
| ||
|
KobraKay
Portugal4219 Posts
cool.Ups my bad, did not saw the golden 3 time asl winner thing | ||
|
CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
| ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
| ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
| ||
|
superjoppe
Sweden3682 Posts
| ||
|
negativedge
4279 Posts
flash going balls deep on the trophies | ||
|
epjx31
United Kingdom324 Posts
"the one only god" ---> truly he is | ||
|
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
| ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
| ||
|
Piste
6167 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:20 feckless wrote: I think the other factor may have been absence of his mutas from that crucial engagement. Yeah I think as well that the engagement at heros nat was the reason his lurks was so late. | ||
|
jtan
Sweden5891 Posts
this should be flash's new nickname | ||
|
xM(Z
Romania5278 Posts
| ||
|
ortseam
996 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:27 CakeSauc3 wrote: Hmm so no rushed ASL 5... I'm scared now I think they wanted to do that so Bisu and JD would play one more, but it's clear that they're both not going to compete anymore | ||
|
wallace black
5 Posts
| ||
|
niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:24 FlaShFTW wrote: like i said, go back and watch. +1 5 rax hits very very fast. +1 armor if started immediately after would also be relatively fast. there was a reason flash never attacked up the ramp for a long time. The reason were the mutas. At least one of the reasons. Armor may have been the other one, a bigger one. Its possible to break 2 lurks with that many marines even without armor. | ||
|
r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
| ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
| ||
|
traxamillion
104 Posts
| ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:31 Golgotha wrote: was the ruler a real ruler? I wish he would use it in all his game from now on. he has to man. for the memes haha. Thank you to everyone who watched my stream! If ASL5 doesnt start soon, this will probably have to be my last cast for afreeca :/ | ||
|
traxamillion
104 Posts
| ||
|
CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:33 FlaShFTW wrote: he has to man. for the memes haha. Thank you to everyone who watched my stream! If ASL5 doesnt start soon, this will probably have to be my last cast for afreeca :/ Thanks for the casts you did, was fun to listen in! | ||
|
KobraKay
Portugal4219 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:30 r.Evo wrote: ...it's kinda cool to think about how basically no one expected this ten years ago. What a time to be alive. Indeed. I was really sad when the last startleague and last PL (with BW only) ended....never did I imagine that a few years later we would have this. But this will also be different from now on, without JD and Bisu. It is a good time for Soulkey and EffOrt to come out and become the real challengers, even Larva...so zerg is somewhat secure....but Protoss? Not sure if Rain is consistent enough. | ||
|
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
| ||
|
arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:18 FlaShFTW wrote: think about it, what if hero had just 1 more lurker at the high ground. theres a reason most zergs get 3 lurkers these days atthe 3rd and its because of that +1 armor upgrade taht allows terran to walk up ramps... Hero actually had the third lurker, but his mistake was to keep it near the hatch. Had he placed it along with other two, he would've survived there. | ||
|
Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
![[image loading]](https://puu.sh/ykiau/6f1ec4ff51.png) | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
Should've known that Flash will try to bust his third with all thos marines just standing there. Also, what is it with zergs trying to cut so many corners. Sure, he survived the sunken attack but the amount of damage he would've taken if he didn't would've been immense.![[image loading]](/staff/BigFan/ASL4/FlashASL4.png) On November 12 2017 19:16 True_Spike wrote: That must have been a tough reality check for anyone thinking hero has a chance. never! I'm sure that if they have another series, there's a better chance that hero can take it. Game 3 showed that he can win in a macro game, he just needs to get that third base up and running. Even in the last game, hero pulled his mutas back due to Flash's feint and in turn, got busted. If he kept them there, that base would've been defended 100%. The game would've looked different too. On November 12 2017 19:35 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: On a serious note, on Flash playing a different race: I think offracing and playing random should be allowed and could be a very legit strategy. We should at least see how the games would look like. Imo it would at least inject something new and hopefully something exciting into the games. I think he was joking. | ||
|
juvenal
2448 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:37 arbiter_md wrote: Hero actually had the third lurker, but his mistake was to keep it near the hatch. Had he placed it along with other two, he would've survived there. I don't think it was much of a mistake, but rather a calculated risk. Had the mutas arrived just a tiny bit earlier and had the spikes hit a little better, Flash would've lost his entire bio force for a couple of lurkers and the initiative would've gone to Hero. | ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:37 arbiter_md wrote: Hero actually had the third lurker, but his mistake was to keep it near the hatch. Had he placed it along with other two, he would've survived there. ' I dont think he had the lurker, it probably just morphed in while his lurkers at the ramp got crushed and he then burrowed it at the hatch because it had nowhere else to go... at least that seems most likely to me, don't think they showed that lurker being done while those other two lurkers were still at the choke. Just saw a hydra standing at the hatch a bit earlier i think? | ||
|
chuDr3t4
Russian Federation484 Posts
| ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:42 Kaolla wrote: ' I dont think he had the lurker, it probably just morphed in while his lurkers at the ramp got crushed and he then burrowed it at the hatch because it had nowhere else to go... at least that seems most likely to me, don't think they showed that lurker being done while those other two lurkers were still at the choke. Just saw a hydra standing at the hatch a bit earlier i think? agree, don't believe he had it around till it was too late. Man, another minute or mutas being there and this game would've been different. Much like game 1 with hero going really greedy and getting punished hard. | ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:43 chuDr3t4 wrote: On FS hero had 2 drones on nat gas since he pulled drones to def flash 1st marine push. That's why he lost. because with a bit more gas he would've been able to hold his 3rd? uhuh... | ||
|
Ty2
United States1434 Posts
| ||
|
xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:42 Kaolla wrote: ' I dont think he had the lurker, it probably just morphed in while his lurkers at the ramp got crushed and he then burrowed it at the hatch because it had nowhere else to go... at least that seems most likely to me, don't think they showed that lurker being done while those other two lurkers were still at the choke. Just saw a hydra standing at the hatch a bit earlier i think? This is exactly what happened. A bit before Flash attacked we saw 1 unmorphed hydra at the hatch. It was clearly morphing as Flash busted the ramp. Maybe if Hero had 10~ more seconds the lurker saves him - but tiny edges win championships. | ||
|
Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/0u9kXpm.jpg) | ||
|
chuDr3t4
Russian Federation484 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:44 Kaolla wrote: because with a bit more gas he would've been able to hold his 3rd? uhuh... yes that missing gas was faster 3rd lurker erryone here is talking about. | ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:51 chuDr3t4 wrote: yes that missing gas was faster 3rd lurker erryone here is talking about. I don't think that's the case. It was probably late because the hatch there finished quite late so he had no larva to build the 3rd hydra/lurker. If he would've just built that hatch a bit earlier, that would've helped quite a bit more, don't think it was a gas thing at all. | ||
|
FFGenerations
7088 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/hArggM4.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/jeMggtX.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/92P5ISZ.jpg) golden ruler ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------^ | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
| ||
|
Shalashaska_123
United States142 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/MjbMdcW.jpg) This is the perfect trophy for him. I remember he said something about switching races after getting his 3rd MSL/3rd OSL victories, but because KeSPA was transitioning to SC2 we didn't get to see him play another race. I wonder if he'll give it a shot now and show he can dominate just as hard with any race. Shalashaska_123 | ||
|
ArcadePlus
United States44 Posts
| ||
|
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
| ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
I'm guessing Season 5 won't be as early as was planned to. I'm not sure Bisu and JD are playing in the next season. | ||
|
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
lol yeah I know he was joking. But since he brought it up, I always thought that offracing can win you games, can make for an interesting series, and should be allowed. | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 12 2017 20:01 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: lol yeah I know he was joking. But since he brought it up, I always thought that offracing can win you games and should be allowed. the good thing about offracing is that if Flash wins ASL using zerg or protoss, maybe just maybe folks can stop yelling Tesagi every time Flash wins. Given, I don't think he's at that level yet in his off-races but w/e | ||
|
Kaolla
China2999 Posts
| ||
|
raff100
498 Posts
| ||
|
chuDr3t4
Russian Federation484 Posts
| ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
| ||
|
DracoMortuiVolantus
68 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
| ||
|
Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
On November 12 2017 20:19 BigFan wrote: So, where's Parting now? He retired while Flash is still taking titles I believe he's not planning on coming back to SC2 atm, instead he's switching to Arena of Valor. (eh?) | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 12 2017 22:13 Ziggy wrote: I believe he's not planning on coming back to SC2 atm, instead he's switching to Arena of Valor. (eh?) oh I wasn't really asking a question lol, don't really care what he does. Was just making a comment that he retired while Flash is still winning, winning and winning lol | ||
|
Grettin
42381 Posts
GGs Flash. | ||
|
Rollora
2450 Posts
On November 12 2017 22:29 Grettin wrote: Just watched the vods. Lmao that golden ruler part had me rolling. GGs Flash. Are they out already? Edit found it here, but need the youtube link, Afreeca VOD is always lagging (guess its because of 50 background ads running) http://vod.afreecatv.com/PLAYER/STATION/27877620 | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 12 2017 22:41 Rollora wrote: stupid question but did flash actually have his military service or does he still have to do it? still has to do it. | ||
|
niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
On November 12 2017 19:37 arbiter_md wrote: Hero actually had the third lurker, but his mistake was to keep it near the hatch. Had he placed it along with other two, he would've survived there. this lurker was made from the new larva from that new hatchery. Hero only brought 2 hydras early and only started the hatch once he secured the ramp. On November 12 2017 19:38 BigFan wrote: Also, what is it with zergs trying to cut so many corners. BW is a game of cutting corners. The one who does it better and more wisely, wins. The better player you play against, the more corners you're tempted to cut to make up for their skill advantage. Sure, he survived the sunken attack but the amount of damage he would've taken if he didn't would've been immense. So... basically you just said that he did perfect defense? Hero lost 1 sunken and some lings in exchange for an m&m group. I don't know if he lost drones, or mutas, I'd have to rewatch to form a stronger opinion on who benefited from that exchange more. | ||
|
Grettin
42381 Posts
On November 12 2017 22:41 Rollora wrote: stupid question but did flash actually have his military service or does he still have to do it? Are they out already? I watched Terror's vods from youtube (Spoiler warning, if you go to his Youtube page). I have no idea if you can watch any vods on Afreeca. | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
| ||
|
hitthat
Poland2260 Posts
On November 12 2017 20:16 chuDr3t4 wrote: all that ruler ruckus reminded me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awZExq_KEwg Wins in SC2 doesnt count. | ||
|
Burned Toast
Canada2040 Posts
| ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
pretty much. This is BW we're talking about after all, not SCII. | ||
|
CognacLover
Poland66 Posts
On November 12 2017 23:53 BigFan wrote: pretty much. This is BW we're talking about after all, not SCII. I have a feeling if FlaSh sticked around with SC2 I think he if not dominate as hard as he is doing today he could be capable of winning more than 1 trophy on that game. He was just too sick from David Kim's non stop nerf & buff & vice versa bullshit so he retired. | ||
|
intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
| ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 12 2017 23:57 CognacLover wrote: I have a feeling if FlaSh sticked around with SC2 I think he if not dominate as hard as he is doing today he could be capable of winning more than 1 trophy on that game. He was just too sick from David Kim's non stop nerf & buff & vice versa bullshit so he retired. maybe, who knows. Anyways, let's get back on focusing on these games. That game 3 is still nuts when I think about it. On even bases with Flash (well, 1 base less when you count base at 10) and yet hero manages to pull a win from thin air despite Flash having a solid early to mid game and despite the mech transition. Wish we saw more games like that instead of that game 1 BO loss etc... | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 12 2017 23:59 intotheheart wrote: Could someone please give me a very tl;dr tl;dr of the games? Game 1: proxy 8 rax vs 3 hatch before pool, bunkers at exp, up ramp and behind main mineral line = gg. Blah spare yourself! Game 2: 2 hatch hydra into 3rd corner base closer to Flash's main (12). Flash eventually scouts, moves in and kills it then sieges high ground to win. Weird game meh. Game 3: macro game, hero holds on well until defilers, kicks Flash's ass despite being 60 supply down and against Flash's mech with drops and cracklings. Must watch! Game 4: hero barely holds his third only for Flash to bust up the ramp and take out the 2 lurkers = eventual gg as Flash gets third then fourth and breaks hero's new third. Reminds me of that Flash vs Jaedong game on Demian from ASL2. | ||
|
intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
| ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 13 2017 00:17 intotheheart wrote: Nice, nice. Game 3 reminds me of how SoulKey managed to beat FlaSh (can't remember context) with sick crackling drops. it was quite interesting. Flash just watched the game on his stream so if someone can tell us what he's saying, just a tl;dr would be really cool! | ||
|
mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
Seems like hero made a crucial error in the last game choosing a drone (extractor) before 3rd lurker (hydra) at the top left base. | ||
|
Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
| ||
|
chuDr3t4
Russian Federation484 Posts
![[image loading]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/306265950007590914/379299216671113217/unknown.png) | ||
|
HaFnium
United Kingdom1074 Posts
On November 13 2017 00:54 Cryoc wrote: From watching his stream, Flash got optical flare in game 4 but couldn't use it. Was wondering why academy was flashing even after range/stim completed... | ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
Never noticed Flash got Flare in game 4. Was he planning on blinding Lurkers or something? | ||
|
Rollora
2450 Posts
On November 12 2017 23:57 CognacLover wrote: I have a feeling if FlaSh sticked around with SC2 I think he if not dominate as hard as he is doing today he could be capable of winning more than 1 trophy on that game. He was just too sick from David Kim's non stop nerf & buff & vice versa bullshit so he retired. Well the game is very volatile compared to BW. Not the better player overall wins always, but too much a sudden moment of luck or storm/beneling hit or whatever or something similar. So even if you play better 99% it can always flip and the better player loses in a second whereas he built up a lead for the whole game. Whatever the reason for that is: units that deal too much damage or are moving too fast to get caught or whatever. Cheese is too strong for some races or there are too many possibilities whereas other races have only so many good openers. There is a huge difference to BW as far as I can see it: battles last longer and even if you lose one in a very bad way, you always have a very realistic chance to come back, whereas in SC2 its more realistic that you get rolled over. That volatile game design was, what made me quit playing and watching the game, since it was always a pain and I lost many games where I was the "better" player but lost because of a single big mistake and couldn't defend the then overwhelming opponent -whereas I can do that in BW. | ||
|
gondolin
France332 Posts
| ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
 Flash enjoying a Drink on stream along with his trophies and ruler.![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/ZKjtKVA.jpg) | ||
|
lastride
2390 Posts
On November 12 2017 23:57 CognacLover wrote: I have a feeling if FlaSh sticked around with SC2 I think he if not dominate as hard as he is doing today he could be capable of winning more than 1 trophy on that game. He was just too sick from David Kim's non stop nerf & buff & vice versa bullshit so he retired. agreed 100%. | ||
|
opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On November 13 2017 01:30 Rollora wrote: Well the game is very volatile compared to BW. Not the better player overall wins always, but too much a sudden moment of luck or storm/beneling hit or whatever or something similar. So even if you play better 99% it can always flip and the better player loses in a second whereas he built up a lead for the whole game. Whatever the reason for that is: units that deal too much damage or are moving too fast to get caught or whatever. Cheese is too strong for some races or there are too many possibilities whereas other races have only so many good openers. There is a huge difference to BW as far as I can see it: battles last longer and even if you lose one in a very bad way, you always have a very realistic chance to come back, whereas in SC2 its more realistic that you get rolled over. That volatile game design was, what made me quit playing and watching the game, since it was always a pain and I lost many games where I was the "better" player but lost because of a single big mistake and couldn't defend the then overwhelming opponent -whereas I can do that in BW. This is common sentiment of BW fans but it's completely ignorant of the reality in SC2 competition. If the game is so volatile, why do upset of koreans by foreigners almost never happen? Why is the top players in tourneys always the same people? The previous post which is quoted here is also absurd. Flash just wasn't a top player in SC2. It wasn't "david kim's" fault, he just wasn't as good in it as he was in BW and a lot of his fame came from the hype around his BW results. | ||
|
XiaoJoyce-
China2908 Posts
That game the zergling seem so cheap and unstoppable. Ah omg use scourge to tank all the dmg for successful drop maybe Flash do not expect it to happen!! And I feel when armoury down , Mech unit will have immobile characteristic and not as strong... Maybe that is the weak point of mech transition ~.~ Maybe critical mass of Mech unit have not reached to hold the point.. It remind me of Flash vs Innovation in SC2 when Flash keep winning all the fight but just lose suddenly when Innovation bring hellion to mess up Flash SCV mining... | ||
|
Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On November 13 2017 01:37 gondolin wrote: So Flash won the ASL with a 11/13 record, that's a measly 85% win rate and people dare call him god? His opposition was pathetic to say the least | ||
|
outscar
2832 Posts
On November 13 2017 01:44 opisska wrote: This is common sentiment of BW fans but it's completely ignorant of the reality in SC2 competition. If the game is so volatile, why do upset of koreans by foreigners almost never happen? Why is the top players in tourneys always the same people? The previous post which is quoted here is also absurd. Flash just wasn't a top player in SC2. It wasn't "david kim's" fault, he just wasn't as good in it as he was in BW and a lot of his fame came from the hype around his BW results. So Stephano's domination, Naniwa's multiple finals, Neeb winning korean tourney in korea which was done only once by Grrr ages ago and having one foreigner last and this year on semi's of Global Finals doesn't mean anything for you? This kind of feats for foreigners is impossible in BW, non koreans has less than 1% chance to keep up with mechanics. We can even look to ladder - Serral is N1 ranked on Korea server. What was the highest rank foreigner reached on Fish, probably C by Trutacz? FlaSh wasn't top player in SC2? Yes, he wasn't God of SC2 but he was improving, he needed time. He quickly reached finals right afterwards he switched into it. I don't even wanna go into DK theme, don't make me laugh pls. | ||
|
mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On November 13 2017 01:42 NoS-Craig wrote: Flash enjoying a Drink on stream along with his trophies and ruler.lolol gotta showcase that ruler well won, greatly deserved | ||
|
mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On November 13 2017 01:44 opisska wrote: This is common sentiment of BW fans but it's completely ignorant of the reality in SC2 competition. If the game is so volatile, why do upset of koreans by foreigners almost never happen? Why is the top players in tourneys always the same people? The previous post which is quoted here is also absurd. Flash just wasn't a top player in SC2. It wasn't "david kim's" fault, he just wasn't as good in it as he was in BW and a lot of his fame came from the hype around his BW results. well to be fair, if you look at flash's approach it is top down. he considers everything first and then designs his strategy around that and slowly grinds it into perfection. kinda hard to stay motivated into such an "expected but still unstoppable" playstyle as flash's when unit stats are constantly shifting. | ||
|
starkiller123
United States4029 Posts
On November 13 2017 02:14 outscar wrote: So Stephano's domination, Naniwa's multiple finals, Neeb winning korean tourney in korea which was done only once by Grrr ages ago and having one foreigner last and this year on semi's of Global Finals doesn't mean anything for you? This kind of feats for foreigners is impossible in BW, non koreans has less than 1% chance to keep up with mechanics. We can even look to ladder - Serral is N1 ranked on Korea server. What was the highest rank foreigner reached on Fish, probably C by Trutacz? FlaSh wasn't top player in SC2? Yes, he wasn't God of SC2 but he was improving, he needed time. He quickly reached finals right afterwards he switched into it. I don't even wanna go into DK theme, don't make me laugh pls. I guess all the brood war foreign pros were just shit | ||
|
Jealous
10107 Posts
On April 23 2009 03:46 niteReloaded wrote: These kids will one day win a starleague 100% imo: - Tazza - by.hero i can see it in their eyes. Looks like the time is not yet. | ||
|
wallace black
5 Posts
| ||
|
Malinor
Germany4719 Posts
I was very pleased with the way hero approached the series. 3hatch before pool in game 1 and the battle zergish build in game 2 could both have worked. But 8rax can just happen (game1) and I am sure he had a good reason to expand towrds the terran in game 2... if the push came just 20 seconds later he probably could have held. Game 3 was just totally awesome, the game I enjoyed the most this ASL... That approach to Zerg play was just beautiful. I was impressed overall with hero, but of course, standing up to Flash is just too much to ask for nowadays. It is time that the best map created, Fighting Spirit, has to go. It had its run but the games played on this map are just not exciting anymore. Especially ZvT just seems ugly. | ||
|
mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
| ||
|
Barneyk
Sweden304 Posts
It was such a crucial part of it and they just didn't mention it. Without it Flash would've been slaughtered running up the ramp but with +1 armor his marines survive 2 spines. Hero played great and that 3rd game was amazing. But Flash man, just, damn, Flash is pretty good at this game. | ||
|
Malinor
Germany4719 Posts
On November 13 2017 02:14 outscar wrote: So Stephano's domination, Naniwa's multiple finals, Neeb winning korean tourney in korea which was done only once by Grrr ages ago and having one foreigner last and this year on semi's of Global Finals doesn't mean anything for you? This kind of feats for foreigners is impossible in BW, non koreans has less than 1% chance to keep up with mechanics. We can even look to ladder - Serral is N1 ranked on Korea server. What was the highest rank foreigner reached on Fish, probably C by Trutacz? FlaSh wasn't top player in SC2? Yes, he wasn't God of SC2 but he was improving, he needed time. He quickly reached finals right afterwards he switched into it. I don't even wanna go into DK theme, don't make me laugh pls. In my opinion it shows that SC2 just requires a different skill set than Brood War. Other players were just better at the game than Flash or Jaedong (both were past their prime anyways, especially Jaedong. And still Jaedong at least made it into one BlizzCon final). As was said, I believe the "finalized" gameplay of Brood War helps Flashs Skillset. A game that is constantly changing probably is not good for Flashs approach. He literally spent years in Brood War to exactly map out how much he could get away with - the result is this unbelievable display of skill where he always seems to have just the exact amount of units to stop aggression while building a stronger economy than his opponent and later crush him with his superior macro. All those dumb locking losses of Flash in ~2007-2009 were precisely because of that extreme cutting of corners any way possible... and when he finally mapped it all out in his mind in 2010-2011, he became god. But there have clearly been dominating players in SC2 history that were simply better than others. Of course foreigners are better in SC2 than in Brood War... The foreign Brood War scence was literally 10 years behind korea in professionalism. That cannot be said for SC2. | ||
|
usopsama
6502 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/IGLeovx.jpg) Wow. The golden trophy actually says, "The One and Only God." | ||
|
Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
| ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
Based on the lack of threads / comments, I guess not but anyone could confirm that would be great. | ||
|
duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On November 13 2017 03:58 usopsama wrote: Wow. The golden trophy actually says, "The One and Only God." They printed it on the trophy, knowing Flash would win. ASL confirmed scripted /s | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28597 Posts
Then game three was amazing. The constant lurker ling dark swarm drops onto the main production is exactly how zergs should approach the mech switch, I loooved how he actually used scourge as 'overlord shields' before the first one. Managing to get off the first one and destroy the turret wall meant that he could just continue doing it, and then Flash became too spread out to be able to defend his other expansions. It was probably the closest I've ever seen to flash 'falling apart' and losing his composure - which is a huge testament to how well hero did. then zvt on fighting spirit vs Flash sadly looks borderline impossible. He's just too good at it and it's so mapped out. | ||
|
Rollora
2450 Posts
On November 13 2017 01:44 opisska wrote: This is common sentiment of BW fans but it's completely ignorant of the reality in SC2 competition. If the game is so volatile, why do upset of koreans by foreigners almost never happen? Why is the top players in tourneys always the same people? The previous post which is quoted here is also absurd. Flash just wasn't a top player in SC2. It wasn't "david kim's" fault, he just wasn't as good in it as he was in BW and a lot of his fame came from the hype around his BW results. Well... they happened regularly Apart from players not only upsetting but completely dominating (Stephano, Neeb.... the latter even causing troubles among Kespa) | ||
|
opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On November 13 2017 02:14 outscar wrote: So Stephano's domination, Naniwa's multiple finals, Neeb winning korean tourney in korea which was done only once by Grrr ages ago and having one foreigner last and this year on semi's of Global Finals doesn't mean anything for you? This kind of feats for foreigners is impossible in BW, non koreans has less than 1% chance to keep up with mechanics. We can even look to ladder - Serral is N1 ranked on Korea server. What was the highest rank foreigner reached on Fish, probably C by Trutacz? FlaSh wasn't top player in SC2? Yes, he wasn't God of SC2 but he was improving, he needed time. He quickly reached finals right afterwards he switched into it. I don't even wanna go into DK theme, don't make me laugh pls. Stephano's domination over whom? Mostly other foreigners and a couple of "travelling koreans". Zero success in Korea proper. The only really remarkable thing was Neeb's run and that was partly oponent luck. In any case, SC2 has a much greater organisational suppprt for whites to be successful and it is still not remotely enough. You can't directly compare results when the ecosystems of the games are so different. | ||
|
Miragee
8470 Posts
On November 13 2017 04:56 Rollora wrote: Well... they happened regularly Apart from players not only upsetting but completely dominating (Stephano, Neeb.... the latter even causing troubles among Kespa) Upsets happened a lot in SC2 back when I was watching it. Compare that to BW. Foreigners _never_ won vs koreans after 2005 until the end of the Kespa era in a BO3 and very, very, VERY rarely they could win a Bo1. | ||
|
Burned Toast
Canada2040 Posts
On November 13 2017 03:52 Barneyk wrote: It bothered me to no end that they commentators didn't bring up that Flash was waiting for armor +1 to finish before running up to Heros third in the last game. It was such a crucial part of it and they just didn't mention it. Without it Flash would've been slaughtered running up the ramp but with +1 armor his marines survive 2 spines. Hero played great and that 3rd game was amazing. But Flash man, just, damn, Flash is pretty good at this game. Watch the FlashFTW cast of these matches, the guy has a really up to date understanding of the game/maps/strategies. He insisted on how crucial this was, indeed. | ||
|
Liquid`Drone
Norway28597 Posts
On November 13 2017 02:14 outscar wrote: So Stephano's domination, Naniwa's multiple finals, Neeb winning korean tourney in korea which was done only once by Grrr ages ago and having one foreigner last and this year on semi's of Global Finals doesn't mean anything for you? This kind of feats for foreigners is impossible in BW, non koreans has less than 1% chance to keep up with mechanics. We can even look to ladder - Serral is N1 ranked on Korea server. What was the highest rank foreigner reached on Fish, probably C by Trutacz? FlaSh wasn't top player in SC2? Yes, he wasn't God of SC2 but he was improving, he needed time. He quickly reached finals right afterwards he switched into it. I don't even wanna go into DK theme, don't make me laugh pls. Scan wrote that Dandy got A on fish. You're entirely right in that nonkoreans have performed way, way better in sc2 than in bw, but Dandy and Bonyth especially are good enough to take games from koreans that are at least pretty close to the top. | ||
|
EndingLife
United States1587 Posts
| ||
|
xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/thumb/6/64/SSL11_finals_venue2.jpg/800px-SSL11_finals_venue2.jpg) | ||
|
Barneyk
Sweden304 Posts
On November 13 2017 05:22 Burned Toast wrote: Watch the FlashFTW cast of these matches, the guy has a really up to date understanding of the game/maps/strategies. He insisted on how crucial this was, indeed. I really should, I just rewatched that exacr sequence and he called it just like it was instead of focusing on something else. Artosis and Tasteless both have far better understanding of the game than I do but they so often fail to mention crucial aspects of what is happening, no matter how obvious it is. Sometimes they call really interesting details that I miss, but just as often they miss huge obvious things. I almost always watch the games on youtube later in the day with anticipation addon so I don't get spoiled with the duration, but for the next season I think I am gonna go with FlashFTW anyway, I always mess up the spoil the duration for myself somehow anyway. | ||
|
Jealous
10107 Posts
Shit I'm dumb, forgot about that lol. | ||
|
jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On November 13 2017 04:03 PVJ wrote: I wasn't able to watch the whole show, was there any news / announcement on ASL 5? Based on the lack of threads / comments, I guess not but anyone could confirm that would be great. No announcement or plans FBH said if there is no sign like that, it means there is no asl in planning | ||
|
blueblimp
Canada297 Posts
On November 13 2017 04:21 Liquid`Drone wrote: Game two though, he was literally 1 second away from taking that, or even a slight miscontrol on his behalf. If he had killed the scv before the bunker finished, he'd be able to kill the 2 rines before any other scvs could finish it, and then he'd be able to kill a couple more scvs, two depots, one lone tank wouldn't be able to help out without the wall so his expansion would be delayed.. Like it was ridiculously close. Yeah that was a knife's edge timing. I don't think he quite had enough time to kill the SCV before it finishes the bunker, though. If I calculate correctly, it takes 12 Hydra shots to kill an SCV (60 health, 10*0.5=5 damage per shot), and he only had 5 Hydras there, so he'd need almost 3 volleys. It looks like he didn't even manage 2 volleys (which hit the vulture) before the bunker completed. All sorts of tiny optimizations mattered for that encounter. Flash did some really nice micro to pull his marines back slightly while the bunker was finishing so that they couldn't be immediately sniped by the hydras. Here's a link to the VOD at 1:06:01, when the Hydras move out: youtu.be | ||
|
Miragee
8470 Posts
On November 13 2017 06:41 Barneyk wrote: I really should, I just rewatched that exacr sequence and he called it just like it was instead of focusing on something else. Artosis and Tasteless both have far better understanding of the game than I do but they so often fail to mention crucial aspects of what is happening, no matter how obvious it is. Sometimes they call really interesting details that I miss, but just as often they miss huge obvious things. I almost always watch the games on youtube later in the day with anticipation addon so I don't get spoiled with the duration, but for the next season I think I am gonna go with FlashFTW anyway, I always mess up the spoil the duration for myself somehow anyway. lol, I also always mess up the anticipation addon because it shows the time for a short period of time and I always look at it... It was the only reason to go for the youtube stream but since I'm a retard and spoil myself either way I can just watch FlashFTW and get the better casting. | ||
|
niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
On November 13 2017 01:44 opisska wrote: This is common sentiment of BW fans but it's completely ignorant of the reality in SC2 competition. If the game is so volatile, why do upset of koreans by foreigners almost never happen? Why is the top players in tourneys always the same people? The previous post which is quoted here is also absurd. Flash just wasn't a top player in SC2. It wasn't "david kim's" fault, he just wasn't as good in it as he was in BW and a lot of his fame came from the hype around his BW results. If the game isn't so volatile, how come BO1 is never played, but only BO3, BO5 - and all finals (to my admittedly limited knowledge) are BO7? haha dude , how did you dig that up?! :D | ||
|
Liquid`Drone
Norway28597 Posts
On November 13 2017 08:06 blueblimp wrote: Yeah that was a knife's edge timing. I don't think he quite had enough time to kill the SCV before it finishes the bunker, though. If I calculate correctly, it takes 12 Hydra shots to kill an SCV (60 health, 10*0.5=5 damage per shot), and he only had 5 Hydras there, so he'd need almost 3 volleys. It looks like he didn't even manage 2 volleys (which hit the vulture) before the bunker completed. All sorts of tiny optimizations mattered for that encounter. Flash did some really nice micro to pull his marines back slightly while the bunker was finishing so that they couldn't be immediately sniped by the hydras. Here's a link to the VOD at 1:06:01, when the Hydras move out: youtu.be yeah I think it might not have been possible for him to get it at his timing either, but if he was there literally 1 second earlier and targeted the scv right away, he would have been. It was sooo close, and I think most likely game deciding. | ||
|
Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
On November 13 2017 08:04 jinjin5000 wrote: No announcement or plans FBH said if there is no sign like that, it means there is no asl in planning I hope this is not true. | ||
|
Miragee
8470 Posts
Would be weird but I assume Blizzard is asking for higher fees since Remastered came out so they have to figure out the finances first? : / | ||
|
Rainalcar
Croatia358 Posts
| ||
|
niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
On November 13 2017 09:40 Rainalcar wrote: Flash is similar to Klitschko brothers. He/they reached greatest heights in BW/boxing, but to the (arguably) boring styles of play (playing Terran, methodical, almost computer-like approach/distance jabs) and overwhelming dominance, not too many people actually care. I dare to say that Flash's dominance is detrimental for BW. Let's see where do we go from here. I agree. I think most people would agree that having one person being so good means the beauty of the game remains 'hidden' because the games are such rolls. Sadly, it makes sense. JD and Bisu not competing means there's less chance of someone challenging Flash. ASL5 would be like a teacher competing vs students in school... heck, even the studio for the finals wasn't nearly full. They COULD make a new type of show that would somehow build it's intrigue, suspense and thrill on the fact that Flash IS such a dominant figure. Make him the guy to 'decapitate'... some type of new vibe show. | ||
|
niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/zRRzrcm.png) sup fuckers or maybe u jelly? | ||
|
usopsama
6502 Posts
On November 13 2017 08:04 jinjin5000 wrote: No announcement or plans FBH said if there is no sign like that, it means there is no asl in planning On September 06 2017 09:49 K.H.J wrote: http://m.sports.naver.com/esports/news/read.nhn?oid=468&aid=0000299523 This article is most viewed in esports section. Something interesting is in this article. 1. Blizzard's license fee for 1 competition is 100,000,000 won. (1$ = 1,000~1,200 usually.) 2. Every competition, host company usually spend 400,000,000won. (Not including license charge) 3. New WCG which i mentioned before re-consider SCR tournament Blizzard charges Afreeca like $89,000 USD for each ASL tournament. If ASL dies, it is because of shit like that. | ||
|
RKC
2848 Posts
On November 13 2017 10:22 usopsama wrote: Blizzard charges Afreeca like $89,000 USD for each ASL tournament. If ASL dies, it is because of shit like that. Afreeca should be charging Blizzard for brand promotion and consumer retention... | ||
|
Miragee
8470 Posts
On November 13 2017 10:54 RKC wrote: Afreeca should be charging Blizzard for brand promotion and consumer retention... Yeah, no kidding. | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On November 13 2017 06:41 Barneyk wrote: I really should, I just rewatched that exacr sequence and he called it just like it was instead of focusing on something else. Artosis and Tasteless both have far better understanding of the game than I do but they so often fail to mention crucial aspects of what is happening, no matter how obvious it is. Sometimes they call really interesting details that I miss, but just as often they miss huge obvious things. I almost always watch the games on youtube later in the day with anticipation addon so I don't get spoiled with the duration, but for the next season I think I am gonna go with FlashFTW anyway, I always mess up the spoil the duration for myself somehow anyway. d-do i tell him that I'm retiring from ASL casting? O.O On November 13 2017 10:02 niteReloaded wrote: I agree. I think most people would agree that having one person being so good means the beauty of the game remains 'hidden' because the games are such rolls. Sadly, it makes sense. JD and Bisu not competing means there's less chance of someone challenging Flash. ASL5 would be like a teacher competing vs students in school... heck, even the studio for the finals wasn't nearly full. They COULD make a new type of show that would somehow build it's intrigue, suspense and thrill on the fact that Flash IS such a dominant figure. Make him the guy to 'decapitate'... some type of new vibe show. I also agree with this sentiment that too dominant of a player does indeed make the games unfun to watch. As much as I love FlaSh, it's exciting when he has this rival that can stand up to him and have a good chance of upsetting him. When he loses, everyone loses their heads and everyone is cheering for the underdog because he's been at the top for so long. Really wished Larva or SK met him in the finals, I think it would have been extremely competitive but alas, no dice. | ||
|
Miragee
8470 Posts
| ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 13 2017 12:07 Miragee wrote: You won't do any more ASL casts? o.O I think he's quitting. | ||
|
Shura
France54 Posts
Should be good viewer wise ^^ Waiting for the Fantasy comeback to see epic TvTs ^^ | ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
| ||
|
Miragee
8470 Posts
| ||
|
XenOsky
Chile2219 Posts
On November 13 2017 09:40 Rainalcar wrote: Flash is similar to Klitschko brothers. He/they reached greatest heights in BW/boxing, but to the (arguably) boring styles of play (playing Terran, methodical, almost computer-like approach/distance jabs) and overwhelming dominance, not too many people actually care. I dare to say that Flash's dominance is detrimental for BW. Let's see where do we go from here. saying the same since his last OSL | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On November 13 2017 12:07 Miragee wrote: You won't do any more ASL casts? o.O No. Sadly people grow up and life has more responsibilities for you. I need to apply to law school soon and take my LSATs. Which means time for starcraft and casting has become almost 0. I'll try to do some casts on my youtube here or there but for official casts, I'm going to need to take a step back. Hopefully more talent can develop and keep the scene going though. I remember when Bisudagger first brought me onto the casts and it helped me grow tremendously and then he left and I brought Esportsjohn. The cycle continues friend. Also I have a really good replacement for myself who has top notch analysis that makes mine look weak in comparison. | ||
|
Miragee
8470 Posts
On November 13 2017 16:55 FlaShFTW wrote: No. Sadly people grow up and life has more responsibilities for you. I need to apply to law school soon and take my LSATs. Which means time for starcraft and casting has become almost 0. I'll try to do some casts on my youtube here or there but for official casts, I'm going to need to take a step back. Hopefully more talent can develop and keep the scene going though. I remember when Bisudagger first brought me onto the casts and it helped me grow tremendously and then he left and I brought Esportsjohn. The cycle continues friend. Also I have a really good replacement for myself who has top notch analysis that makes mine look weak in comparison. Ah damn, that's too bad. I really liked your casting and I'll be blunt here and say you improved a lot over time. Your analysis and game knowledge is way better now and it really turned you from a decent caster into a good one. It's a shame that you have to quit now but it's perfectly understandable. I wish you the best of luck. Who is this replacement you are talking about? | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On November 13 2017 17:10 Miragee wrote: Ah damn, that's too bad. I really liked your casting and I'll be blunt here and say you improved a lot over time. Your analysis and game knowledge is way better now and it really turned you from a decent caster into a good one. It's a shame that you have to quit now but it's perfectly understandable. I wish you the best of luck. Who is this replacement you are talking about? All good things must come to an end at some point :/ I have a friend named Jaeyun, maybe people have heard of him. He's a fantastic Zerg player (top 150 USW) who's been starting to commentate games a bit and his analysis is great. He's talked to me about taking my spot. The only issue is that tuesdays might not work out for him but we'll see. | ||
|
TehRei
Sweden261 Posts
| ||
|
Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
| ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19208 Posts
On November 13 2017 18:49 FlaShFTW wrote: All good things must come to an end at some point :/ I have a friend named Jaeyun, maybe people have heard of him. He's a fantastic Zerg player (top 150 USW) who's been starting to commentate games a bit and his analysis is great. He's talked to me about taking my spot. The only issue is that tuesdays might not work out for him but we'll see. The cycle continues! We will have our legacy . Also, I'll be back in 2018. Never surrender! | ||
|
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
On November 13 2017 21:19 BisuDagger wrote: The cycle continues! We will have our legacy . Also, I'll be back in 2018. Never surrender!good to heard,it kind of made me sad how important u were for bw in 2017 then dissapeared but having a new born is obviously first second and third priority | ||
|
LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
On November 13 2017 08:04 jinjin5000 wrote: No announcement or plans FBH said if there is no sign like that, it means there is no asl in planning By the way, I was just re-watching the finals, and Tasteless does say "this is last ASL of the year" near the beginning | ||
|
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
On November 13 2017 11:29 FlaShFTW wrote: d-do i tell him that I'm retiring from ASL casting? O.O I also agree with this sentiment that too dominant of a player does indeed make the games unfun to watch. As much as I love FlaSh, it's exciting when he has this rival that can stand up to him and have a good chance of upsetting him. When he loses, everyone loses their heads and everyone is cheering for the underdog because he's been at the top for so long. Really wished Larva or SK met him in the finals, I think it would have been extremely competitive but alas, no dice. As a Flash fan, I feel sad that almost everyone feels this way. Let me ask people here a question — how many can honestly say they would feel the same way if JD were the one in Flash’s shoes? How many people felt the same way about Jordan or Gretzky? Why is Flash not looked upon as favorably as other players? He doesnt have a bad personality. He has a lot of interesting and funny quirks (twitching, pocari, ruler). Its also not like he burst onto the scene and just dominated, he went thru a lot of really tough losses before rising to the top. | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On November 13 2017 21:19 BisuDagger wrote: The cycle continues! We will have our legacy . Also, I'll be back in 2018. Never surrender!hey nice! glad to hear to it man. tell lildagger much love from his far off uncle haha On November 14 2017 00:11 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: As a Flash fan, I feel sad that almost everyone feels this way. Let me ask people here a question — how many can honestly say they would feel the same way if JD were the one in Flash’s shoes? How many people felt the same way about Jordan or Gretzky? Why is Flash not looked upon as favorably as other players? He doesnt have a bad personality. He has a lot of interesting and funny quirks (twitching, pocari, ruler). Its also not like he burst onto the scene and just dominated, he went thru a lot of really tough losses before rising to the top. single player games tend to have that feel to them. people want them to lose because in single player, you know exactly whos the better player while in team games, its possible to have the rest of the team be better or more cohesive. we saw that in SSG vs SKT in the worlds for league of legends. And it was easy to root against Faker there too because of how good he is. | ||
|
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
On November 14 2017 00:18 FlaShFTW wrote: hey nice! glad to hear to it man. tell lildagger much love from his far off uncle haha single player games tend to have that feel to them. people want them to lose because in single player, you know exactly whos the better player while in team games, its possible to have the rest of the team be better or more cohesive. we saw that in SSG vs SKT in the worlds for league of legends. And it was easy to root against Faker there too because of how good he is. Believe me I get why youd want to root for the underdog. I do it all the time. Thats why I brought up JD. I think people will not nearly be as “bored” with one player dominating if it was JD and not Flash. And that’s a shame. | ||
|
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On November 14 2017 00:11 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: As a Flash fan, I feel sad that almost everyone feels this way. Let me ask people here a question — how many can honestly say they would feel the same way if JD were the one in Flash’s shoes? How many people felt the same way about Jordan or Gretzky? Why is Flash not looked upon as favorably as other players? He doesnt have a bad personality. He has a lot of interesting and funny quirks (twitching, pocari, ruler). Its also not like he burst onto the scene and just dominated, he went thru a lot of really tough losses before rising to the top. What Flash is going through isn't unique to him alone, and has little to do with his level of success. Some people just aren't popular, and it is their success at the highest level that keeps their status relevant, while some are blessed with adulation from the fans regardless of their actual status as competitors. BoxeR had it. sAviOr had it. Bisu had it. Jaedong has it now. Flash never had it during his career, whatever his level of play or achievements happened to be. NaDa spent the vast majority of his career being shit on by BoxeR fans for being too mechanically proficient, and was likened to a brainless spamming machine, which NaDa tried to prove wrong by doing some of the weirdest strategies, but no matter how hard NaDa tried, people (including the tournament organizers) just wanted BoxeR to win that Golden Mouse instead of NaDa. Jaedong for the longest time, was in the shadow of sAviOr despite having overcome sAviOr in terms of skill and achievement much earlier. These kind of phenomena have little rhyme or reason, and it comes down to some of the most ridiculous factors such as one-off memorable story lines from a single tournament, or superficial things like good looks, or having the ability to speak English instead of Korean. This isn't a popularity contest, so there's not much need to over analyze these things. It happens elsewhere too. David Beckham was more popular, and had more lucrative deals than the vast majority of his contemporaries, but knowledgeable football fans can gloss over these kind of trivia to focus on actual relevant material. There may be those who mindlessly root for whoever was born within their border, those who appeal to them aesthetically, or those who made a strong impression that one single time that these simpletons actually paid attention to actual spectating. Popularity is of little meaning within the realm of competition. The entire purpose of competitive Brood War is to champion the best player, and the rest is up for subjective opinion. The only thing that matters is competitive results, and you can let those with lesser results have the adulation, because ultimately, if you go down that path of commercial success and popularity, some random Korean girl who flirts online for money is currently bitch-slapping all our heroes on these streaming platforms. It truly does not matter for those who have their sights on the competitive side of things. | ||
|
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19208 Posts
On November 13 2017 22:15 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: good to heard,it kind of made me sad how important u were for bw in 2017 then dissapeared but having a new born is obviously first second and third priority I'm glad you noticed <3. I seriously thought I'd have more time lolol. But I'm raising an awesome kid. 6 months old now and he's already watched some great ASL games. I hope he can enjoy seeing his father take back to the microphone. | ||
|
Miragee
8470 Posts
On November 14 2017 00:11 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: As a Flash fan, I feel sad that almost everyone feels this way. Let me ask people here a question — how many can honestly say they would feel the same way if JD were the one in Flash’s shoes? How many people felt the same way about Jordan or Gretzky? Why is Flash not looked upon as favorably as other players? He doesnt have a bad personality. He has a lot of interesting and funny quirks (twitching, pocari, ruler). Its also not like he burst onto the scene and just dominated, he went thru a lot of really tough losses before rising to the top. Letmelose has some good points so read his post. I wanted to add a little bit of a personal answer so here is mine. First of, Jordan or Gretzky (who's that?) is really different because those are playing a team sport. A single guy might be extra-ordinarily dominant but he can't do nothing without his team so it balances out. We experience the same thing for whole teams though. I'm not into football at all but in Germany we have a team called Bayern München which has been dominant for as long as I can remember and apparently it has been even worse for the past few seasons. They are winning each season with a sizeable gap and people are bored of it. As for Jaedong: I'm a Jaedong fan and I'm not entirely sure. Jaedong never had the same feel of dominance to him as Flash if that makes sense and that's because of the race. I'm not talking about any imbalance here but zerg is a lot more volatile than terran. You could lose to a random cheese, weird strategy or something really quick as a zerg while terran, being the race that can defend best, often has options to defend it. It also doesn't help that terran lategame armies and defenses are very solid while a zerg army can melt much more quickly, creating an opportunity for the opponent to turn the game around. Those I think are the main factors why it _felt_ easier to upset Jaedong in his dominant time than to upset Flash. Flash never had the best micro or the best multi-tasking. However, he had the best game sense and his macro was second to none. That way it seemed like he was maphacking, basically scouting or just knowing everything his opponent did and if you know everything and have the best macro you will roll every opponent. Combine that with what I said above about the race and you get an unbreakable feeling of dominance. All that said though, it's also about for how long of a period a player is dominating. Even though I loved Jaedong I loved it when players could take a game off of Jaedong in a satisfying manner (means no cheese, no timing push, no lame strategy). This is why I loved Bisu, Zero, Fantasy or Hwasin playing Jaedong for example - as opposed to ForGG playing Jaedong for example... It was always exciting and I liked both outcomes. Flash period of dominance was longer than Jaedong's as far as I remember and it was a lot more boring than Jaedong's as well because of the reasons I stated in the previous paragraph. I really don't care a lot about success or superficial things and they don't influence me becoming a fan. I want exciting play, that's all. What that exciting play is can of course be different from what it is for you. For me, Flash's play isn't exciting anymore. I still find it impressive, I'm not denying that, but it grew old pretty quickly. I hope that makes a little sense. | ||
|
LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
Just like in chess, if a new champion is going to arise, it will be another complete player, not someone that can come up with clever tricks to catch Flash off guard. Bisu I think is the other very strong player, but he has never been strong enough, and now he's no longer a threat. | ||
|
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
I guess what I was kind of trying to say, almost subconsciously, is that I know Flash was never that popular to begin with; and that is fine. But I feel that a lot of people are hiding behind the "too dominant is boring" rationale to cheer against Flash. They have other "motives", if you could call it that. Such as maybe being a Zerg player, for example, and feeling upset because they feel that TvZ is unfair. And maybe we cant blame them for not just coming out and saying they think that because we frown against balance whining. So instead of saying "I wish Flash would lose coz Terran is OP", they say "I wish Flash would lose coz I'm bored of him winning all the time". I'm calling people out because even though there are obviously people who genuinely cheer against Flash in order to have more exciting games, I think there are a lot who cheer against him because of "other reasons". Not saying there is anything wrong with that, but be honest and come out and say it. And again, I fully understand why cheering against Flash is fun. When Flash wins, it can range from shit to epic. But when Flash loses, it can only be epic. | ||
|
mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
| ||
|
Rainalcar
Croatia358 Posts
).Also, I do think that the lack of Flash's popularity is partially due to him playing Terran, just like a (small, but important) part of his success lies there. | ||
|
ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
On November 13 2017 05:46 EndingLife wrote: Bonyth reaching 3K MMR is pretty damn impressive. What's even more impressive is his record... 60-11, 101-41, 97-34. Getting that MMR in that few games is just SICK. Good job Bonyth! That is way after Kespa era. In 2010 there were the top pro, the the pro, then the half pro and then the top amateurs. The best 5 foreigners were able to compete with the top amateurs, no more then that. | ||
|
Broodwar4lyf
304 Posts
| ||
|
Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Terran doesn't have any worthwhile melee-range units. Zealots can crash into tank lines and scourges can be among the most exciting and unstable units in the game, but 95% of the time a Terran player who is not sheltering their army under siege tanks is just not playing properly. (Bio TvZ is excepted, but nonetheless, marines outrange muta+ling and siege tanks are often used to defeat lurkers. The range advantage stays with Terran.) This aspect of Terran play is not Flash's fault. He has learned and incorporated the best that any other Terran player has ever offered (with the notable exception of Fantasy's gift for vulture chaos) and then added a lot of his own. I too found it a little disappointing that neither Bisu nor Hero could come closer to beating him, but I would not chalk such disappointment up to Flash's style. Rather I would say that this is what Terran looks like, and we need more Zergs and Protosses to show us what the next level of their races looks like (if the game is indeed balanced). Several of them are close. | ||
|
niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
Federer was boring for a bit. Djoković was boring for a bit. (when they were dominating ruthlessly) When someone is so unphased by the competition and focused on results without caring too much on giving the show to the fans, people will get bored. Honestly, Flash looked bored to me when he was taking the trophy and giving the interview. Seemed to me like he feigned excitement, just to pay respect to the tournament and his opponents. Compare: even he is bored :p | ||
|
Miragee
8470 Posts
On November 14 2017 08:28 Broodwar4lyf wrote: I love me some Flash dominance but he kind of broke the game and nobody will ever come close to him until his age catches up to him. He will retire at his prime, sadly. Maybe we've already seen the best P or Z and just won't admit that at the highest human-level BW, Terran has a huge advantage and only Flash has been able to figure it out and execute properly Wait what? He won't retire at his prime because his prime was back in 2010/2011... | ||
|
reincremate
China2213 Posts
| ||
|
Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On November 14 2017 08:49 Djabanete wrote: Each race has something that makes it exciting. Zergs are constantly living on the edge --- whether because they are being greedy or because they are attacking ruthlessly, they're always one false step away from disaster, but their flanking and counterattacks are feared by the other races. Protosses have their fireworks --- psionic storms, reaver drops, recalls. Terrans, even since Boxer, have stood for versatility and special tactics using tanks, drops, and terrain advantage. Their best offensive unit is also their best defensive unit --- there's no better way to destroy the opponent's base than to "defend" it from your opponent using siege tanks on high ground. Terran doesn't have any worthwhile melee-range units. Zealots can crash into tank lines and scourges can be among the most exciting and unstable units in the game, but 95% of the time a Terran player who is not sheltering their army under siege tanks is just not playing properly. (Bio TvZ is excepted, but nonetheless, marines outrange muta+ling and siege tanks are often used to defeat lurkers. The range advantage stays with Terran.) This aspect of Terran play is not Flash's fault. He has learned and incorporated the best that any other Terran player has ever offered (with the notable exception of Fantasy's gift for vulture chaos) and then added a lot of his own. I too found it a little disappointing that neither Bisu nor Hero could come closer to beating him, but I would not chalk such disappointment up to Flash's style. Rather I would say that this is what Terran looks like, and we need more Zergs and Protosses to show us what the next level of their races looks like (if the game is indeed balanced). Several of them are close. Stop relying solely on ASL results and you would see that zergs and protosses have no problem beating terrans. Change Bisu to Best/Rain or prime Stork, and Hero to Effort/Larva/SK and this would be a much different tournament... also Flash had no problem 3-0ing the second best terran. | ||
|
chuDr3t4
Russian Federation484 Posts
yep | ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
Anyway, I cheer for Flash, Guess I enjoy the type of play he does. I wonder if he'll compete in ASL 5 if there is gonna be one. | ||
|
Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
You people who call him boring are the same folks who refused to accept him as the Last Bonjwa lol | ||
|
Miragee
8470 Posts
On November 14 2017 16:11 Shady Sands wrote: What a bunch of pathetic haters lol You people who call him boring are the same folks who refused to accept him as the Last Bonjwa lol So much generalisation. Amazing. | ||
|
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On November 14 2017 14:53 NoS-Craig wrote: I don't think someones a simpleton for cheering for someone from there country. Nothing wrong with that as all. Anyway, I cheer for Flash, Guess I enjoy the type of play he does. I wonder if he'll compete in ASL 5 if there is gonna be one. Think of it as a spectrum, with varying degrees of severity. If the experience of watching a certain competitive field doesn't go beyond fulfilling your sense of national pride, then yes, you are a simpleton. If you are a girl who finds the prospect of approaching, and possibly dating a moderately attractive young guy of your liking with a paying job on television extremely appealing, and literally have zero interest in the scene otherwise, then yes, you are a simpleton. The more of these simpletons a scene can attract, the more lucrative the overall business becomes, so yes there is literally nothing wrong with having more of these people. However, it does not stop these people from being what they are. Which aspect of Flash's play stands out as being particularly attractive to you? If I were to rank his particular play-style in terms of enjoyment, I personally wouldn't rank him that highly. I don't find much joy in ruthless optimization and oppressive pressuring off that optimization that I personally associate with Flash, which is why I also don't find much joy in herO's tendency to excel in drone count optimization, and pressuring constantly for any weak points in the enemy. If I were to make analogies, Flash would be the type of boxer to abuse his range, while constantly wearing his opponent down with his superior movement and stamina. It is the constant threat of jabs from smart angles that breaks the opponent down, rather than raw explosiveness. It is suffocating approach, and not only did I prefer BoxeR out of all the all time great terran players in terms of play-style, I tended to enjoy games from Leta, or FanTaSy more enjoyable regardless of their success rate if we were to limit the pool to more recent players. FanTaSy out-performed Flash towards the end of professional Brood War, but I still found FanTaSy's approach to the game on a fundamental level more entertaining. There's a certain RPG element that could be found in many of the all-time greats that made it easy to spectate their games. BoxeR's immortal marines. FanTaSy's vultures from hell. Stork's immaculate carriers. Bisu's annoying corsairs. JangBi's army pulling off the impossible in the most dire of situations. Jaedong's famous turn of the tide moment. Like at any moment, it seemed like these players had the capacity get into their groove, and summon invincible heroes in the place of these fragile units that frustrated thousands of casual Brood War players. What unit stands out for Flash? What specific move can only be attributed to Flash in a way that Leta was once the literal manifestation of the deadly terran air force? One of the first things that come to my mind is his scan usage. It is always used in the right place, at the exact opportune moment. The way Flash scans behind the enemy's main army instead of scanning on top of it for checking out the composition for the second time, and checks for reinforcements and enemy's intentions in general in terms of movement. It truly is uncanny, but hardly the stuff that usually makes it into the highlight reels. Flash's immaculate decision making tends to nullify the raw electrifying multi-tasking abilities, or perfect micro-management abilities of his peers, and it is only when you cause an error in judgement from Flash that evens out the playing field somewhat, it's been quite a while since anybody managed to out-muscle Flash with raw skill on a consistent basis. I think EffOrt has been quite cunning in his approach, and tended to force a lot of misjudgments from Flash throughout the years. Flash is in possession of the most perfect algorithm that has ever been created for the game of Brood War, but I personally don't see the allure of his play-style, since it needs a ridiculously high level of understanding of optimal terran play to follow without much of it all going over your head, rather than the more simplistic RPG elements found in some of the other greats. | ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
| ||
|
jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/522793-translated-pro-videos-coordination-thread?page=17#328 | ||
|
Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
I think it juts showed everyone how to play against the mech switch as he wasnt even in a good position AND lost guardians for almost nothing. | ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
On November 14 2017 08:50 niteReloaded wrote: Sampras was boring. Federer was boring for a bit. Djoković was boring for a bit. (when they were dominating ruthlessly) W/ the other 2 you are right but Federer was never boring. | ||
|
Peeano
Netherlands4817 Posts
On November 14 2017 17:54 jinjin5000 wrote: translated flash's analysis of him vs hero http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/522793-translated-pro-videos-coordination-thread?page=17 Thanks! If you add the post number #328 you can get a better direct link: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/522793-translated-pro-videos-coordination-thread?page=17#328 | ||
|
LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
On November 14 2017 19:00 Ota Solgryn wrote: That game 3 was amazing. + Show Spoiler + I think it juts showed everyone how to play against the mech switch as he wasnt even in a good position AND lost guardians for almost nothing. - early mass ling did nothing - mutas did nothing - lost a bunch of mutas to stop the push - guardians did nothing - hold pos lurker did nothing - still won | ||
|
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
| ||
|
Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On November 14 2017 13:34 Essbee wrote: Stop relying solely on ASL results and you would see that zergs and protosses have no problem beating terrans. Change Bisu to Best/Rain or prime Stork, and Hero to Effort/Larva/SK and this would be a much different tournament... also Flash had no problem 3-0ing the second best terran. I think my last paragraph sounds like I am talking about tesagi, but I'm not. My post was meant as a response to people saying that Flash's style was boring. I don't think he is a boring player on a personal level, as he fully embraces all the versatility and possibilities of the Terran race ("this is what Terran looks like") --- if one is bored, it's because of Terran itself or (more likely) because of Flash's win rate removing the sense of suspense and wearing thin the same story line. Personally I don't find his style boring, nor did I mean to take away from the accomplishments of people like Best, Soulkey, and Effort. I take it from your mention of Flash 3-0 Mind (or maybe you meant Flash 3-0 Last, either way) that you are arguing for no tesagi and Flash as an outlier, with which I agree (or at least I think that statistics can be slippery and balance depends a lot on the maps, and Flash is definitely an outlier, and statements of race balance can't be conveniently proven based on the data we have). | ||
|
_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
Less emotions better concentration in this sport its big advantage. I cant be a Flash fan, i find his style to be hardcore abusive which is no fun. I can accept his level but he doesnt bring me any memorable moments of joy and i never been in awe of what he is doing in a game, apart from his map hack scans. | ||
|
Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
On November 14 2017 16:43 Letmelose wrote: What unit stands out for Flash? What specific move can only be attributed to Flash in a way that Leta was once the literal manifestation of the deadly terran air force? For me, I'll always remember Flash's goliath vs carrier battles on Katrina vs Stork in the GOMTV finals. That was what got me into watching BW, though I'd watched some of Boxer's and Nada's dominance earlier. Maybe he doesn't seem to have a "specific move" because he seems to figure out and then utterly destroy opponent's strategies so often. Then people are forced to innovate against him, or else they lose in the same manner over and over. Flash is in possession of the most perfect algorithm that has ever been created for the game of Brood War, but I personally don't see the allure of his play-style, since it needs a ridiculously high level of understanding of optimal terran play to follow without much of it all going over your head, rather than the more simplistic RPG elements found in some of the other greats. I enjoy his play style a lot, and I certainly don't have a high level of understanding. Could be that I like the person more than the play, but for me it's exciting to watch the perfect defense he pulls so often with the exact minimum required of units/time. There's so many moments where other players would get killed instantly but Flash somehow miraculously defends. The way he finishes opponents may not be the most flashy, but it's the way he gets there that I find exciting and hard to believe sometimes. | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On November 14 2017 16:43 Letmelose wrote: Think of it as a spectrum, with varying degrees of severity. If the experience of watching a certain competitive field doesn't go beyond fulfilling your sense of national pride, then yes, you are a simpleton. If you are a girl who finds the prospect of approaching, and possibly dating a moderately attractive young guy of your liking with a paying job on television extremely appealing, and literally have zero interest in the scene otherwise, then yes, you are a simpleton. The more of these simpletons a scene can attract, the more lucrative the overall business becomes, so yes there is literally nothing wrong with having more of these people. However, it does not stop these people from being what they are. Which aspect of Flash's play stands out as being particularly attractive to you? If I were to rank his particular play-style in terms of enjoyment, I personally wouldn't rank him that highly. I don't find much joy in ruthless optimization and oppressive pressuring off that optimization that I personally associate with Flash, which is why I also don't find much joy in herO's tendency to excel in drone count optimization, and pressuring constantly for any weak points in the enemy. If I were to make analogies, Flash would be the type of boxer to abuse his range, while constantly wearing his opponent down with his superior movement and stamina. It is the constant threat of jabs from smart angles that breaks the opponent down, rather than raw explosiveness. It is suffocating approach, and not only did I prefer BoxeR out of all the all time great terran players in terms of play-style, I tended to enjoy games from Leta, or FanTaSy more enjoyable regardless of their success rate if we were to limit the pool to more recent players. FanTaSy out-performed Flash towards the end of professional Brood War, but I still found FanTaSy's approach to the game on a fundamental level more entertaining. There's a certain RPG element that could be found in many of the all-time greats that made it easy to spectate their games. BoxeR's immortal marines. FanTaSy's vultures from hell. Stork's immaculate carriers. Bisu's annoying corsairs. JangBi's army pulling off the impossible in the most dire of situations. Jaedong's famous turn of the tide moment. Like at any moment, it seemed like these players had the capacity get into their groove, and summon invincible heroes in the place of these fragile units that frustrated thousands of casual Brood War players. What unit stands out for Flash? What specific move can only be attributed to Flash in a way that Leta was once the literal manifestation of the deadly terran air force? One of the first things that come to my mind is his scan usage. It is always used in the right place, at the exact opportune moment. The way Flash scans behind the enemy's main army instead of scanning on top of it for checking out the composition for the second time, and checks for reinforcements and enemy's intentions in general in terms of movement. It truly is uncanny, but hardly the stuff that usually makes it into the highlight reels. Flash's immaculate decision making tends to nullify the raw electrifying multi-tasking abilities, or perfect micro-management abilities of his peers, and it is only when you cause an error in judgement from Flash that evens out the playing field somewhat, it's been quite a while since anybody managed to out-muscle Flash with raw skill on a consistent basis. I think EffOrt has been quite cunning in his approach, and tended to force a lot of misjudgments from Flash throughout the years. Flash is in possession of the most perfect algorithm that has ever been created for the game of Brood War, but I personally don't see the allure of his play-style, since it needs a ridiculously high level of understanding of optimal terran play to follow without much of it all going over your head, rather than the more simplistic RPG elements found in some of the other greats. I would argue that FlaSh doesn't have a specific unit that he excels at, rather he has mastered the micro of almost every unit. His marine micro is incredible stellar, with his spreads vs lurkers and his reaction time to muta harass in TvZ as one example. His vulture micro is also quite good, though not as good as fantasy's. His goliath control vs air units is second-to-none. He even shows pretty decent wraith micro in the finals vs hero. So overall, I would argue that FlaSh is so good with every unit that it makes it look like nothing stands out to him. He doesn't have a special unit because all of his units are special. It's like the DOTA reference of every hero being overpowered therefore no hero is overpowered. In addition, his understanding of build orders and timings are immaculate. While you cannot visualize his builds as well and his understanding of each matchup and what to do in every specific situation, I think it is elegant to watch perfection being played. It is a subtle art to witness what he does, and although at face value it might look boring because everything of his is so optimized that there is almost no glaring hole in his play, can you really fault that to him? His goal is to win and to win means to do everything in your power to maximize your chance of winning and minimize your chance of losing. While to some that might be stupid and boring, to me it is the epitome of beautiful starcraft. Same with Chess in a way (although beautiful combinations and lines lead to spectacular finishes), a lot of games might look quite boring to you, with generally whoever is the better player by a slight bit using their positional advantage to slowly starve out the oponent until they are forced into a bad move. It might look boring, but the positional play is what is beautiful to watch as well, with all the pieces working in tandem to create a good position with no weaknesses. | ||
|
Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
| ||
|
fko
2 Posts
Watch the mini map, how he starts moving the marines away in a line towards Hero's natural and Hero's reaction to move the mutas away from the 2 lurkers guarding the ramp, so it can intercept the marines somewhere in the middle on the map, while they move in a line. See how Hero moves the mutas in a "confused" pattern, as he is surprised that the interception is not occurring where he was expecting it would. In the meanwhile, the marines turned towards the ramp. The mutas were still chasing air, when the marines were charging up the ramp. That move from Flash, while waiting for the +1 armor, was pure genius out of Sun Tzu's - Art of War! To not just sit idle waiting for the +1 armor, but to throw a feint to shake off the mutas so that the 2 lurkers remain without support. That's the kind of in-the-moment decision and mind games, that separates Flash from the rest... | ||
|
sephiria
106 Posts
Are there any information on that already or are we being kept in the dark? | ||
|
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
And maybe he doesn't have a particular style or unit that would be associated with Flash specifically, but as FlashFTW has pointed out, he's just that good with everything. Flash has said in interviews that one of his eureka moments was being able to properly decide on where to dedicate his attention/apm. There will be occasions where you see Flash dedicate his entire apm into controlling units, and I swear most times it looks better than Terran players who are known to be good with those units. And saying his style is boring really sounds like throwback from the days where all Flash would do was turtle and outmacro his opponent. He currently has a ridiculously aggressive, almost borderline reckless TvZ style. His ASL TvT series with Mind/Last was anything but boring (especially vs Last). I would agree that if you want more uncertainty on who would win, then watching Flash could be boring. But his style itself really isn't boring, not anymore, or at the very least only more boring if you were comparing him to someone like Boxer, who is the ultimate showman. | ||
|
Maks
Ukraine167 Posts
| ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
On November 15 2017 07:02 fko wrote: It's amazing to me that in 31 pages there was only one reference to the amazing feint in game 4, when Flash busted the ramp. Watch the mini map, how he starts moving the marines away in a line towards Hero's natural and Hero's reaction to move the mutas away from the 2 lurkers guarding the ramp, so it can intercept the marines somewhere in the middle on the map, while they move in a line. See how Hero moves the mutas in a "confused" pattern, as he is surprised that the interception is not occurring where he was expecting it would. In the meanwhile, the marines turned towards the ramp. The mutas were still chasing air, when the marines were charging up the ramp. That move from Flash, while waiting for the +1 armor, was pure genius out of Sun Tzu's - Art of War! To not just sit idle waiting for the +1 armor, but to throw a feint to shake off the mutas so that the 2 lurkers remain without support. That's the kind of in-the-moment decision and mind games, that separates Flash from the rest... Nice observation. | ||
|
jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
https://imgur.com/a/DjJFx Monster text: 3rd asl win flash: I became way too strong cyan dude: Fucking tesagy orange: Thats a problem blue dude: hes too good Flash: does overwhelming power look that boring? text: maybe I should switch races | ||
|
_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On November 15 2017 07:45 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: And saying his style is boring really sounds like throwback from the days where all Flash would do was turtle and outmacro his opponent. . I was Flash antifan during this period of his career, he was the most boring player for real. However his current style still doesnt amaze me, as other progamers can do. His style became too abusive making the game not that great to watch either. Apart form his game understanding he have that robot calm mind, which let him have greater concentration and clearer decision making compared to the other players. I have never seen this guy choke, not even once! I dont know if its the talent to understanding the game or that strong nerves which make him so dominant. | ||
|
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On November 15 2017 04:32 FlaShFTW wrote: I would argue that FlaSh doesn't have a specific unit that he excels at, rather he has mastered the micro of almost every unit. His marine micro is incredible stellar, with his spreads vs lurkers and his reaction time to muta harass in TvZ as one example. His vulture micro is also quite good, though not as good as fantasy's. His goliath control vs air units is second-to-none. He even shows pretty decent wraith micro in the finals vs hero. So overall, I would argue that FlaSh is so good with every unit that it makes it look like nothing stands out to him. He doesn't have a special unit because all of his units are special. It's like the DOTA reference of every hero being overpowered therefore no hero is overpowered. In addition, his understanding of build orders and timings are immaculate. While you cannot visualize his builds as well and his understanding of each matchup and what to do in every specific situation, I think it is elegant to watch perfection being played. It is a subtle art to witness what he does, and although at face value it might look boring because everything of his is so optimized that there is almost no glaring hole in his play, can you really fault that to him? His goal is to win and to win means to do everything in your power to maximize your chance of winning and minimize your chance of losing. While to some that might be stupid and boring, to me it is the epitome of beautiful starcraft. Same with Chess in a way (although beautiful combinations and lines lead to spectacular finishes), a lot of games might look quite boring to you, with generally whoever is the better player by a slight bit using their positional advantage to slowly starve out the oponent until they are forced into a bad move. It might look boring, but the positional play is what is beautiful to watch as well, with all the pieces working in tandem to create a good position with no weaknesses. I'm trying to categorize Flash here, not questioning his abilities as a whole. Quite clearly, one does not achieve the things Flash did with significant exploitable deficiencies. Flash has mastered almost all aspects of competitive Brood War to a level that is extremely difficult to exploit whether his opponent happens to be a master tactician, a funky strategist, a multi-tasking god, or a micro-management extraordinaire. However, it clearly does not mean that Flash has mastered all these aspects to a level that is beyond everybody else. That would be being intellectually dishonest, in my opinion. There's a world of difference between players winning through their unmatched mastery of units, breaking down the game to its RPG elements, such as the likes of BoxeR, Leta, and FanTaSy have done with their signature units, and being very good at making the units do what one intends to do with them. The former breaks the expected standard for what can be done with a certain number of units, while the latter is simply keeping things at a crisp level of execution. Nobody here is accusing Flash of having subpar micro-management, but rather, RPG level micro-management mastery that was seen in other superlative players such as Stork, or Jaedong at their peaks was not replicated in Flash. Flash is not alone in this department. iloveoov never relied thoroughly on his raw execution, sAviOr had a clean grasp of most mechanical plays needed from the zerg race, but was never the one to dedicate himself towards that sort of craft. Like I mentioned before, the two words I associate with Flash is optimization off impeccable real-time decision making, and constant pressuring off the leads he creates with his optimizations. Neither are heavily reliant on micro-management, Flash pulls off oppressive pressuring off good map movement and positioning, rather than impossible to replicate raw execution at any given moment. Again, it is a player trait that I'm trying to get across here. Another thing is that while Flash does divide his attention and mental resources fabulously, in a manner which presents him with the highest odds of victory, he doesn't really set himself apart from the rest when the game breaks down to a a battle of raw execution. NaDa, another genius at the game, was fantastic at timing attacks, and extreme late game situations, where the core of the game broke down to raw execution. NaDa would have never won against dOnGraE if his battlecruiser micro-management was simply up to par with other competent terran players of his era. NaDa was exceptional at differentiating himself from the rest in terms of raw execution, whether it was early game, or extreme late game. Flash, on the other hand, has a tendency to struggle more when the game becomes mostly about raw execution, it's not that he is bad at it by any means, but it is apparent that he does not differentiate himself from the rest in a manner that could be seen with some of other all-time greats with this particular aspect of the game. Extreme late game battlecruiser battles with nothing else to focus on, or early game micro-management warfare where the level attention required from minimal number of key units soars through the roof is not where Flash shines the most. While Flash's micro-management in tandem with his other exceptional skillsets at the game is indeed quite the work of art at times, the argument that Flash is somehow untouchable in the micro-management department due to his mastery of all the units available in the game is erroneous in my opinion. I have seen Flash playing micro-management UMS with his viewers, and against other ex-professionals. It is not a matter of being familiar with the UMS itself, because I have seen professionals micro-manage units in the most inefficient manner due to their unfamiliarity with the circumstances, but still come out victorious due to their raw execution. Flash simply loses straight up versus random viewers of his stream, and is often one of the worst performing ex-professionals when they gather together to play micro-management UMS maps, alongside BeSt, who also tends to be more of a cerebral player rather than a raw mechanical beast (his exceptional macro-management is the product of extremely well thought out build optimization, and probe count optimization, rather than a product of insane eAPM numbers). This is Flash's second to none anti-air goliath micro-management in display. I just singled this out, since this was what you brought up as the epitome of Flash's micro-management abilities compared to other top terran players throughout the years. This isn't the kind of skillset that guarantees victories, but just watch Flash trying to space his attack animations, and tell me with a straight face that this is the greatest goliath micro-management user of all-time bar none. + Show Spoiler + I have never thought Flash's goliath micro-managament by itself was the greatest of all-time. Exactly what is so mechanically jaw dropping about literally dozens of fully upgraded goliaths shooting carriers down like flies? What sets apart Flash is the ability to create situations that doesn't force his hand to create miracles out his units, not the actual miracle making itself. We have other legendary players for that specific department. I'm not saying micro-management abilities alone win you games (case in point, Flash alongside numerous other legendary players who built up their legacy without godlike micro-management). There is beauty to be found in every single Brood War legend out there, and the magic of the game is that these gods have all have reached that point through various means. Micro-management is just one of many aspects of the craft that can be mastered to lethal doses for the opposing player, and I personally think Flash has mastered it to a level that allows him to deny getting abused effectively by the very best micro-managament players of all-time, without himself quite being in that category. I have always personally enjoyed the sort of players who bring their units to life, and overcome all-odds through sheer will power and the manipulation of the units on screen beyond their predicted potential. July was one. Jaedong was another. Out of the protoss players, I have always liked JangBi the best out of the more recent players, despite his huge flaws as a competitive gamer. Out of the terran players, I thought Leta's mastery of wraiths was second-to-none, and thoroughly enjoyed his exploits. It's just a tendency I have as a viewer, and I adamantly disagree with your statements that my perception of Flash is somehow clouded by Flash being somehow so good with the sheer micro-management aspect of every single terran unit in existence, that everything he does seems commonplace. If that truly was the case, Flash would be by far my favourite terran player of all-time, regardless of his success rate. Being able to make the impossible happen with every single unit composition imagineable is like a fairy tale come to life for me. I personally don't see it with Flash. To make a footballing analogy, the legendary defender Paolo Maldini once said the following: "If I have to make a tackle then I have already made a mistake.” Sure Maldini was indeed a beast even on mano-a-mano situations, but the thing that elevated him even beyond his ridiculously high individual defensive capabilities was his subtle positional play, and intelligent organization of the defensive line. Flash's gaming philosophy seems to match the above the quote somewhat: "If I have to make an unlikely outplay then I have already made a mistake." I'll add one more point of reference to make myself clear, and avoid any chance of confusion. Both Flash and FanTaSy were impeccable in the terran-versus-protoss match-up. FanTaSy actively seeked out potential outplays with his vultures, and have worked on that specific craft to a demi-god status. Flash doesn't force himself to do anything with his vultures, and uses them sparingly in order to preserve them for later use, when the sheer number of his vultures often make his timing attacks much more frightening. Both players get the maximum return from the terran unit known as vultures, but it is FanTaSy that brings to life the RPG element that can be discovered within vultures due to the innate outplay potential that available in the unit. It's just an philosophical take on a multi-faceted competitive craft, and I don't think you need to force the narrative that Flash was somehow the best at everything, and it was his results alone that somehow made me unable to fully appreciate his games on a visceral level. I have my preferences on gaming styles, and Flash does not belong in the category of my fancy. I'm by no means an expert, but I am a connoisseur of my own preferences when it comes to competitive Brood War. | ||
|
Barneyk
Sweden304 Posts
On November 15 2017 07:02 fko wrote: It's amazing to me that in 31 pages there was only one reference to the amazing feint in game 4, when Flash busted the ramp. Watch the mini map, how he starts moving the marines away in a line towards Hero's natural and Hero's reaction to move the mutas away from the 2 lurkers guarding the ramp, so it can intercept the marines somewhere in the middle on the map, while they move in a line. See how Hero moves the mutas in a "confused" pattern, as he is surprised that the interception is not occurring where he was expecting it would. In the meanwhile, the marines turned towards the ramp. The mutas were still chasing air, when the marines were charging up the ramp. That move from Flash, while waiting for the +1 armor, was pure genius out of Sun Tzu's - Art of War! To not just sit idle waiting for the +1 armor, but to throw a feint to shake off the mutas so that the 2 lurkers remain without support. That's the kind of in-the-moment decision and mind games, that separates Flash from the rest... This is something that Jaedong has talked about quite a lot, how Flash moves his units in ways that confuse you and you are never sure about what he is going to do. When you see his vision it doesn't look like much, but from an opponents perspective it is just plain hell to play against. Every player does some of it, but Flash does it all the time and it is mentally challenging to play against. And I think there is a lot of stuff that Flash does that we commoners just can't see and appreciate enough. Flash really doesn't get credit enough for all the things he does, I feel almost offended reading how he is just a machine executing basic strategies, there is so many detail and nuances to his play. It does get a bit stale watching him win so dominantly, but that is also because there is a lack of talent at the absolute top. The skill gap between The top 3 players at the moment and the ones outside the top 10 seem a lot bigger now than it was during the kespa era. And we don't have coaches and teams and working on specific strategies and whatnot. I hope the sport continues to grow and we can see some new blood and some more organized training and mentorship or whatnot. | ||
|
Miragee
8470 Posts
On November 15 2017 11:48 Barneyk wrote: This is something that Jaedong has talked about quite a lot, how Flash moves his units in ways that confuse you and you are never sure about what he is going to do. When you see his vision it doesn't look like much, but from an opponents perspective it is just plain hell to play against. Every player does some of it, but Flash does it all the time and it is mentally challenging to play against. And I think there is a lot of stuff that Flash does that we commoners just can't see and appreciate enough. Flash really doesn't get credit enough for all the things he does, I feel almost offended reading how he is just a machine executing basic strategies, there is so many detail and nuances to his play. It does get a bit stale watching him win so dominantly, but that is also because there is a lack of talent at the absolute top. The skill gap between The top 3 players at the moment and the ones outside the top 10 seem a lot bigger now than it was during the kespa era. And we don't have coaches and teams and working on specific strategies and whatnot. I hope the sport continues to grow and we can see some new blood and some more organized training and mentorship or whatnot. I don't want to make a long post because Letmelose has, once again, written down my exact thoughts perfectly. I just wanted to say that the skill gap between the S-Class and the A-Class was quite big back then, too. But there were whole teams with coaches that came up with strategies to snipe the S-Class players which makes a big difference in how we perceived things compared to now. | ||
|
Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
ZvZ anyone? Where the buildoutcome has to much impact and where building 1 or maybe 2 extra drones might be to big of a rng outcome as well. Larva, the best zvt player in the tournament/maybe even in the world(?) Loses perhaps because of the RNG in the zvz matchup? Is this okay, really, you think so? Saying you dont wanna patch the game because of blizzard doesnt make it right to have the game as it is either way. | ||
|
Miragee
8470 Posts
On November 15 2017 13:57 Foxxan wrote: For people that say watching flash is boring because he wins to much and to the same people that dont wanna patch the game. ZvZ anyone? Where the buildoutcome has to much impact and where building 1 or maybe 2 extra drones might be to big of a rng outcome as well. Larva, the best zvt player in the tournament/maybe even in the world(?) Loses perhaps because of the RNG in the zvz matchup? Is this okay, really, you think so? Saying you dont wanna patch the game because of blizzard doesnt make it right to have the game as it is either way. There is no denying that ZvZ is stupid although Jaedong proved that the match-ups inherent base on luck can be overcome. The problem with patching something to "fix" ZvZ will break another part of the game. Once you start there is no end to it. See SC2. Out of curiosity: What would you change to "fix" ZvZ? For me, TvT is the only mirror that's a normal match up. The other two races, especially zerg, are much too volatile to have a decent mirror. | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On November 15 2017 14:28 Miragee wrote: There is no denying that ZvZ is stupid although Jaedong proved that the match-ups inherent base on luck can be overcome. The problem with patching something to "fix" ZvZ will break another part of the game. Once you start there is no end to it. See SC2. Out of curiosity: What would you change to "fix" ZvZ? For me, TvT is the only mirror that's a normal match up. The other two races, especially zerg, are much too volatile to have a decent mirror. i order to change one matchup, you have to change how much damage the units of race A deal against other units of race A. Some people proposed that hydras did normal damage to mutas or bonus to increase hydra play, which would diversify the meta. | ||
|
chuDr3t4
Russian Federation484 Posts
| ||
|
niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
He invented 'half' of modern T timings I feel like. He'll just recognize a window and attack. Or recognize a window, and make a BO around it. His timing sense is the best there ever was, and like I said, it's not about even just recognizing timings in current meta, it's recognizing timings that aren't meta yet, but he 'proves them' and they become meta. And a bunch of situational timings that don't fall in the category of meta. And I feel he is fearless. I don't remember feeling fear in his play or insecurity. He goes for the move that feels best, and doesn't seem scared of being wrong. And he's usually right. | ||
|
Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On November 15 2017 14:28 Miragee wrote: There is no denying that ZvZ is stupid although Jaedong proved that the match-ups inherent base on luck can be overcome. The problem with patching something to "fix" ZvZ will break another part of the game. Once you start there is no end to it. See SC2. Out of curiosity: What would you change to "fix" ZvZ? For me, TvT is the only mirror that's a normal match up. The other two races, especially zerg, are much too volatile to have a decent mirror. Agree. Not sure how much merit my suggestions have but here they are: Scourge; Makes it move faster when close to biological air units. Only affects zvz. Cant think of anything else that seems "solid" on paper atleast. Offtopic; Personally i wouldnt mind a bigger patch that adresses things such as more viable to fight each other, and more moves to open up someone as well. Ex, recall down to 100 mana, 8limit unit recall. | ||
|
XiaoJoyce-
China2908 Posts
On November 15 2017 09:15 _Animus_ wrote: I was Flash antifan during this period of his career, he was the most boring player for real. However his current style still doesnt amaze me, as other progamers can do. His style became too abusive making the game not that great to watch either. Apart form his game understanding he have that robot calm mind, which let him have greater concentration and clearer decision making compared to the other players. I have never seen this guy choke, not even once! I dont know if its the talent to understanding the game or that strong nerves which make him so dominant. He said it is hard work. I'm not sure if he work as hard as the time before, but I still believe it is his effort put in to achieve where he is now. In TinyLand translation video. Flash said Nada is pure genius he is nowhere compare to him although many said he has talent. But he experience it before that hardwork always beat talent. His 1st hand experience. It is sad his SC2 career cannot compare to SCBW, but I still feel it is good. There is couple of silver that is 1 game away. Like the 2 MLG he lose to Life ,...(Is it 1 game away?) . And there is the 1 final he lose to Parting... | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On November 15 2017 20:29 niteReloaded wrote: Flash's 'signature move' is IMO attacking at weird timings. He invented 'half' of modern T timings I feel like. He'll just recognize a window and attack. Or recognize a window, and make a BO around it. His timing sense is the best there ever was, and like I said, it's not about even just recognizing timings in current meta, it's recognizing timings that aren't meta yet, but he 'proves them' and they become meta. And a bunch of situational timings that don't fall in the category of meta. And I feel he is fearless. I don't remember feeling fear in his play or insecurity. He goes for the move that feels best, and doesn't seem scared of being wrong. And he's usually right. Honestly, he's only able to do this because he's invested so much time into the game so he knows what he's able to get away with etc... Personally, I agree that Flash's style isn't really flashy or anything. He's just an extremely extremely extremely solid player who understands the matchups like no other and knows how to cut corners and what he can get away with. He's also pretty smart imo. He feinted against hero in the last game to draw the mutas away then busted the ramp. He predicted how hero will play in game 2 with the 2 hatch and even figured that hero will at least go hatch first in game 1 so he 8 rax'd. Aka, the guy really considers the maps that he plays on, his opponents' strategies and his own. Add that to unreal macro and that crazy understanding from earlier and well, he's the best for a reason. I would have to agree with letmelose that Flash isn't someone who microes like a madman. There's been instances where he's been outmicroed. He still has pretty good micro but that goliath video leaves a lot to be desired lol. As a terran player, I'm mostly flabbergasted at some of the decisions that he makes at times watching his fpv. His mind is always on macro but he'll dedicate enough focus on his army or some other important task. There's a reason why he also invented and can pull off 14cc. | ||
|
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
Continuing the football analogy, there was a great defensive midfielder who played for Arsenal - Gilberto Silva. His nickname was "The invisible wall". Half the game you wouldn't hear the commentator mention him by name, a great tackle here and there, a nice pass here and there, but still the opposition would not be allowed to take any initiative, even if they were controlling the ball, simply because of the way he positioning himself and communicating with the rest of the defense. Most people who like big, aggressive defenders with great tackles or air control would call him "nothing special", maybe boring to watch. All people who like creative midfielders and offensive players who would score/assist out of nothing with a brilliant technical play or a defense-splitting pass would call him boring. His opponents didn't like playing against him at all, though. He could be technically proficient, should need arise, but he was remarkably good at not allowing to be put in such a position in the first place. | ||
|
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On November 16 2017 00:11 BigFan wrote: I know your exaggerating just for effect, but your also a name in the community, do not spread falsehoods like that lol.There's a reason why he also invented and can pull off 14cc. | ||
|
niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
On November 16 2017 00:11 BigFan wrote: Honestly, he's only able to do this because he's invested so much time into the game so he knows what he's able to get away with etc... That would imply that Flash plays the game longer than anyone? He's thinking out of the box, but instead of applying it to creative tactics, he's applying it to timings and build orders. | ||
|
Jealous
10107 Posts
On November 15 2017 10:40 Letmelose wrote: I have always liked JangBi the best out of the more recent players, despite his huge flaws as a competitive gamer, Hey Letmelose! Always a pleasure to read your thoughts on competitive Brood War. Can you elaborate on this point, please - both what separates JangBi and what his flaws are? When I think of Micro + Protoss, I invariably think of Bisu, perhaps free playing second string. I think that many others here would agree; so, I am wondering why JangBi is your first choice here. | ||
|
_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On November 16 2017 05:06 Jealous wrote: Hey Letmelose! Always a pleasure to read your thoughts on competitive Brood War. Can you elaborate on this point, please - both what separates JangBi and what his flaws are? When I think of Micro + Protoss, I invariably think of Bisu, perhaps free playing second string. I think that many others here would agree; so, I am wondering why JangBi is your first choice here. If you read closely he had said he likes when a player bring real life to the units on the screen. I favor Jangbi for the exact same reason, his spirit is strongly emanated by the units on the screen, also no other player had given me such dramatic and epic experience in a tournament runs as jangbi in both last OSL's. His jin air osl run where he barely made it out of ro16 while at the same time being the only Protoss from ro8 onward, with nobody expecting for that protoss to stand untill the end. Remember whole building up on their feet including his opponent side shouting his name at semifinal vs Zero after the astonishing dispay of his true warrior spirit even in facing defeat. Kim carry crying, the legend of the fall, beating both best current players, flash and fantasy. He made the most memorable period of my experience as a viewer. If i have to go into the lore it is as Jangbi was display of pure protoss soul. Il stop here and give the ball to letmelose to give you his answer Would like to add one more terran to that RPG aspect and thats Hwasin with his incredible bio control. | ||
|
niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
| ||
|
Jealous
10107 Posts
| ||
|
niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
I wonder also what letmelose will point out. | ||
|
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On November 16 2017 05:06 Jealous wrote: Hey Letmelose! Always a pleasure to read your thoughts on competitive Brood War. Can you elaborate on this point, please - both what separates JangBi and what his flaws are? When I think of Micro + Protoss, I invariably think of Bisu, perhaps free playing second string. I think that many others here would agree; so, I am wondering why JangBi is your first choice here. I actually had a recent private conversation regarding this subject, and why I did not personally appreciate Bisu as much as others in terms of this particular aspect of the game. I'll just leave parts of it I find relevant, it in the spoiler below: + Show Spoiler + First of all, there are two types of protoss players: 1) Those who focus on head-on large scale battles, and gain map control and get leverage over the resources that way. 2) Those who focus on battles on multiple fronts, and gain map control and deny resources from the opponent. From a micro-management perspective, there is no way you can argue that Bisu has mastered the art of head-on battles. When both players are focusing on the same screen, Bisu's multi-tasking abilities are nullified, and it becomes a battle of who gets the better engagements, and the right ultilization of key units. This has never been Bisu's main strength, and has been a key weakness of his at times, especially in the match-up of protoss-versus-terran match-up. In terms of simplifying matters and gaining advantages from pure micro-management abilities, Stork during his professional years was superior to Bisu. It is why Stork tended to do better than Bisu on notable two player maps, where the attack routes were more one dimensional in nature, and the ability to gain map control through battles with both players paying full attention was more vital to victory, rather than the multi-tasking warfare that was seen more often on four player maps. Stork rarely had moments where it was his micro-management abilitiy that let him down, and even at his worst moments, Stork's actual manipulation of units to do the things he wanted was always top notch. Bisu was at his best when the game would boil down to a multi-tasking battle, and had numerous moments where you could actually pin point on his micro-management slip up as the key factor in his defeat. Bisu actually had a tendency to get dragoon heavy compositions (which require less baby-sitting than more complex compositions) and concentrate more on good positioning, sending back-up with his flawless macro-management, as well as using his high eAPM to micro-manage key units separately from his main army to multi-task his opponents to death. I would strongly argue that it's actuality a philosophy of Bisu's to minimize painstakingly accurate micro-management within one screen, and make the game more chaotic and overcome his opponents by doing more things simultaneously, and denying his opponent the ability to overcome him through sheer micro-management ability by forcing his opponents to divide his attention. Bisu's style in general relies far more on multi-tasking than micro-management, and it is one of the major reasons why he excels more at the protoss-versus-zerg match-up, due to the greater number of bases to be found in general. With micro-management intensive builds such as the reaver-carrier, where nothing but your ability to maximize the raw micro-management potential of key units matters, and the number of bases are minimal (compared to the more conventional style of using arbiters), which amplifies the importance of micro-management even more so, the player that found the greatest success was Stork, not Bisu. Further more, in case you believe that to be due to Bisu's lack of understanding of the protoss-versus-terran match-up, rather than his deficiencies in micro-managament, try watching builds that start off with one base versus the zerg race. Stork has been more successful than almost any other protoss players with this unconventional style, and much of it has to do with his manipulation of individual units to their maximum potential. It is debatable whether Bisu was even the best micro-management user of his generation within his own race during his professional years. Players who somewhat were similar in overall approach to Stork were players such as Much, or DaezanG. These players were quite slow, but extremely potent in terms of head-on battles and fine control over their key units. Bisu was more of a freak of nature, and there weren't many players like him, but I would point Kal as somewhat who was somewhat similar in nature. Kal also was known for his fast paced, multi-pronged attacks, but when the game boiled down to head-on battles with both players able to concentrate fully on micro-management, he wasn't quite as mesmerizing. Bisu was a ungodly talent, and had good micro-management abilities, but to liken him to legends who relied heavily on their insane micro-management abilities, or to pretend that Bisu had both the greatest multi-tasking abilities on top of his supposed greatest ever micro-management abilities is intellectually dishonest in my opinion. JangBi was always one of my favourite players, but I'm not sure whether I'll be able to do him justice here. JangBi is one of the most enigmatic players to have ever graced the scene. He had elements of Stork, but was blessed with superior eAPM and raw reaction time. There are fast players, and there are technically proficient players. JangBi would be the kind of player that I'd define as mastering almost all aspects of protoss plays from a raw execution perspective. Whether it was getting the most out of small scale skirmishes or epic large scale battles, whether it was realizing the full potential of basic gateway units, as well as the more specialized high-tech units, JangBi had most of these skill-sets down to an artform. JangBi was by no means the best at getting himself into favourable positions, but he was magnificent in terms of getting out of a sticky situation with nothing but raw play-making abilities to fall back on. There were numerous games where JangBi pro-actively forced the game about a specific outplay, or had nothing but his play-making skills to have a chance to win, and stood tall at the end of it. I can think of several off the top of my head: 1) JangBi versus NaDa in Shinhan 2008 ProLeague JangBi is playing on Othello, a ridiculously terran favoured map, and looks to be on the brink of being swept away by the huge terran army, but plays the battle to perfection and secures the victory for his team. + Show Spoiler + 2) JangBi versus Iris in Lost Saga MSL JangBi displays astonishing early game micro-management prowess versus Iris to dismantle the terran player. + Show Spoiler + 3) JangBi versus Really in Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague JangBi makes things a living hell for Really, once again pro-actively seeking out potential holes in his opponents micro-managements with his early game aggression. + Show Spoiler + 4) JangBi versus Ruby in Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague JangBi does an artful outplay by making Ruby unsiege his tanks with some clean shuttle zealot play, then swoops in with his dragoons to swing the game way into his favour. + Show Spoiler + 5) JangBi versus ZerO in Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague JangBi loses his natural, and has little chance of clawing his way back without a superlative out-play. JangBi concentrates his entire mental capacities to this monumental harassment, where he baits ZerO to move his drones around with a zealot and single high templar, and waits for the perfect moment to annihilate his entire drone count with the second high templar. + Show Spoiler + 6) JangBi versus Flash in Jin Air OGN StarLeague JangBi pulls off another master class of how to stop a well upgraded, massive terran army, by flanking his zealots, spreading his dragoons in an arc formation, and minimizing the chance of an EMP outplay by sending his arbiters from the left, and his high templars from the right. + Show Spoiler + 7) JangBi versus Wooki in SK Planet ProLeague S1 JangBi brings the battle to Wooki despite having inferior dragoon count, and being a little later with his dragoon range upgrade, + Show Spoiler + 8) JangBi versus FanTaSy in Jin Air OGN StarLeague JangBi does his patented two shuttle harassment, but FanTaSy prepares for it somewhat with multiple goliaths already on stand-by. JangBi wrecks havoc with his reavers, and makes a fool out of FanTaSy despite being dealt with on a strategic level. + Show Spoiler + 9) JangBi versus FanTaSy in Jin Air OGN StarLeague JangBi's build is countered, and looks to be on the verge of losing the fifth game to FanTaSy, but JangBi manages to make heroes out of his carriers in a manner that was somewhat reminiscent of his teammate Stork. + Show Spoiler + 10) JangBi versus ZerO in Tving OGN StarLeague JangBi loses his natural, and basically has nothing but his last remaining army, but miraculously battles his way to victory, + Show Spoiler + JangBi was a player that was heavily reliant on being able to outplay the opponent, and was quite lacking in numerous aspects, both as a gamer, and as a professional competitor. Aesthetically speaking, JangBi on-form was my favourite protoss, and that has nothing to do with raw overall ability, but the ability to bring to life the RPG element of Brood War, in what is usually a hectic management game that often decided by a non-stop series of smart decisions, or being able to keep up with managing everything while also being clear headed. Bisu was mesmerizing, no doubt about it, but like I mentioned before, his plays were focused more on the multi-tasking side of things. The "this is what I can do with my units, let's see what you can do with yours" mindset, and the confidence to build an entire career around that sole ability, is something I find extremely appealing on a personal level. In a game that heavily rewards good management, and constant real-time decisions, successful game changing micro-management out-plays are what draws me in the most, especially if is a clash of contrasting styles versus a more conserved player who seeks to gain victories through other means. At the risk of over-simplifying things, some of the best rivalries in history were battles of skill versus wits. Reach (skill) versus iloveoov (wits). BoxeR (skill) versus YellOw (wits). Jaedong (skill) versus Flash (wits). NaDa (skill) versus GoRush (wits). NaDa (skill) versus Nal_rA (wits). July (skill) versus iloveoov (wits). Evenly matched battles between players with fundamentally contrasting philosophies towards the game was what I found the most interesting about this competitive scene, and I tended to root for the player with what I perceived to be superior skill. Now skill is a whole collection of different abilities such as micro-management, and multi-tasking. The thing that made me giddy was unreal levels of micro-management, and appreciated it more if it was pulled off by a somebody who would keep up the tempo with other demands from the game. Bisu has hints of what I find appealing in a player, but after a certain point tends to switch to auto-pilot and tries to purely multi-task his opponent to death. Stork was an artisan at maximizing the potential of his units, but lacks tempo. JangBi firing all cylinders had both. I could attempt to point out what I perceive to be the short comings JangBi had, but I have to eat lunch, and that particular topic needs way more thought and reading up on various material. Suffice to say, I personally think JangBi was more of a winner of great matches, than being overwhelmingly great at actually winning matches in general. JangBi simply didn't have a lot of recourses to win games if he had trouble out-right schooling his oppenents with superior play-making, whether it was due to his own ever fluctuating form, or the fact that his opponents were somtimes able to match him blow for blow in terms of raw execution. For example, I believe JangBi's lack of flexibility, and over-reliance on his one superlative strength is one of the main reasons why JangBi was such a catastrophic failure against Jaedong (a career record of 1-11). Jaedong, in my mind, was literally the worst player to stand up to mano-a-mano in a micro-management duel, and that speaks to JangBi's failures as a competitor, despite the huge upside he had from a spectator's perspective. There's something about players of a very similar nature coming up against one another, that leads to really one sided results. For example, Leta was another micro-management centric player who struggled massively versus Jaedong (a career record of 2-8) due to his strongest assets being nullified by Jaedong's strengths. Over to the other side of the spectrum, Sea is basically a poor man's version of Flash: a player who has an excellent mind for the game. Sea basically was totally stomped by Flash throughout his professional career (a career record of 1-8) despite being a very respectable in the match-up otherwise. On the other hand, JangBi was famous for being ruthless versus protoss players notorious for their excellent battling prowess such as free (a career record of 6-1), and Stork (a career record of 5-0), both of whom were quite capable of bringing down Bisu due to their tendency to ignore all that silly multi-tasking non-sense from Bisu, and just win through well executed centralized battles. Just a couple of thoughts I had in terms of drawing conclusions from head-to-head records, which is far from perfect due to limited data, and various other factors (such as individual form, map pool, type of competition, and match-up specific tendencies) that come into play on top of things being a stylistic mismatches or not. | ||
|
Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
| ||
|
Jealous
10107 Posts
| ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
| ||
|
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
As a competitor: 1) Lack of motivation/professionalism/drive/mentality of a champion JangBi was not a hard working player like Bisu, and would literally go months without practicing at all, especially if he was not content with the status quo. He just has no intensity about him, and doesn't want things from life as much as some of the all-time greats. It's not enough to be good at the game if you don't will yourself to succeed with the talent you have. Of course there are exceptions to the rule, but JangBi was not one of them. Without the drive to excel beyond what you are given with initially, true greatness is next to impossible to achieve. 2) Stage fright This was something JangBi overcame eventually, but JangBi was a nervous wreck when he first made his debut. He was already a beast during practice (JangBi's first game upon arriving at the Samsung Khan house was against Stork who had the highest protoss-versus-protoss career win rate at the time, if I remember correctly, and JangBi ended up owning his ass), but was actually terrible in some of his televised games. Hwaseung Oz members tended to practice a lot versus Samsung Khan members, and most of them had nothing but praise for JangBi's gaming talents. Jaedong is the one exception, who seems to rate Stork more highly, but I think that's mostly a stylistic mismatch at the works more than anything else. Streamers have gone on the record saying JangBi during practice was no joke, but that didn't seem to translate into results for the most part, apart from the few occasions JangBi managed to break out of his cage. Erase a few select tournaments from history, and JangBi's legacy as a professional literally becomes next to meaningless. As a Brood War gamer, I think JangBi was superior to his teammate Stork, but as a competitive player of Brood War, Stork was head and shoulders above JangBi in my opinion. 3) Weak mentality JangBi often crumbled mentally when the pressure of the moment became too great, when he was discontent with his salaries, when he felt that the community was too harsh on him for being a failed talent, or when things were not going right for him in general. It seemed like every little thing could affect JangBi in some sort of a negative manner. To this day, one of the most frequently mentioned epithet that the Korean communities associate with JangBi, was the day that JangBi had an outburst against his fans on social media which was later mentioned on one of his televised games by a respected commentator, who seemed to be genuinely worried that JangBi might be having a mental breakdown after going through a rough patch in his career. On the upside, JangBi created an internet meme that exists in Korea to this date years after JangBi retired from professional play. As a gamer: 1) Over-reliance on micro-management based outplays JangBi does have a high eAPM in general, but if my issue with Bisu is that he shifts too much of his focus on matters outside of pure micro-management, JangBi's fault would be that he puts way too much focus on a single screen looking for a potential outplay. JangBi does create more outplays as a result of this, but more often than not, competent players who can divide their mental resources more efficiently can simply deflect JangBi's attempts to outplay them, while JangBi misses out on a potential window to get additional gateways at the opportune timing, or set-up an expansion earlier than his opponents would expect. You simply cannot win a game of Brood War all the time through sheer execution-based outplays alone. It's a luxury to have when built on top of your already fantastic arsenal of weaponry to take down your fellow competitor, but JangBi tends to tunnel-vision on these sorts of plays at the cost of his other duties to fulfill as a top level Brood War gamer. 2) Style over substance Jaedong and Flash both commented on having always wanted watch JangBi's first person view on stream, saying JangBi had an flamboyant playstyle. To make another footballing reference, Dennis Bergkamp was a scorer of wonderful goals, but he necessarily wasn't the most efficient goalscorer, despite his otherwordly technique with the ball that allowed him to score all those beautiful goals. JangBi would have games where he got too intoxicated in his own plays, then lose sight over what actually wins him games, and lose after looking good. Everything he does revolves around how successful his playmaking is, and he is in fact quite average at winning with good understanding of the game itself. 3) Putting his own expansions at risk by making stupid, unnecessary army movements JangBi's map movements are often quite illogical, and although JangBi is absolutely fantastic at making something magical happen when battles are the only logical course of action, JangBi does have a tendency to put himself into stupid positions. It's the reason why JangBi does quite poorly in late-game situations versus the zerg race, not because he lacks the raw multi-tasking ability to protect his expansions in time, but because he keeps moving around looking for fights when he shouldn't, being in positions he shouldn't be in. It is especially is a problem that he struggled to fix in the protoss-verus-zerg match-up, but it happens in the protoss-verus-protoss match-ups as well, and it is as if JangBi doesn't realize that you can get favourable battles by thinking things through, not mindless dexterity. In conclusion, although I loved watching JangBi play, I think both Bisu and Stork were way ahead of him as a competitive player, and I actually think that if I was personally managing a professional Brood War team, I might have hired Kal instead. Kal may have sucked ass versus the very top end players, but with Kal you could guarantee stable results across multiple seasons, across multiple platforms of competition. JangBi's credentials as a professional Brood War player was closer to Kal's than the likes of Bisu, or Stork, in my personal opinion. A couple of unforgettable tournaments, amazing potential, and easy-on-the-eyes play-style doesn't erase literally months, or maybe perhaps even years of being a total non-factor as a top end professional. There's a reason why JangBi ended his career with less ProLeague victories than literally all five other members of the Six Dragons, and had qualified for the round of sixteen in major individual leagues only eight times, which is less than what TheROCK managed during his career. JangBi's entire professional career is a few unforgettable epic moments of glory strung together by a whole bunch of epic failures and disappointments. | ||
|
darktreb
United States3016 Posts
1) Under-performing one's extremely high raw talent. Bonus points if a player had "all time great" potential. Many players under-perform their talent, but it's more notable when a player could have been a top 5-10 all time player. As an example, I'm not sure his raw talent was as high as Jangbi's, but Sea comes to mind for Terran. 2) Being the most "spectacular" on the battlefield. In this sense, Sea is not an analog of Jangbi. Jaedong is an obvious answer, though I wonder which less successful Zerg players especially stand out to you. | ||
|
Jae Zedong
407 Posts
On November 16 2017 17:58 Letmelose wrote: On the upside, JangBi created an internet meme that exists in Korea to this date years after JangBi retired from professional play. Does this meme translate well into English? If so, would you mind sharing it? | ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
Samsung hwaiting~~~ | ||
|
_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + quick recap on all the games vs zero with subs again + Show Spoiler + and the crowd reaction shot by moletrap at the event after jangbi won the whole series + Show Spoiler + | ||
|
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On November 16 2017 20:39 darktreb wrote: Letmelose, who would you say are the closest analogues to Jangbi of the other races? This could be defined in a bunch of ways - two that especially come to mind are: 1) Under-performing one's extremely high raw talent. Bonus points if a player had "all time great" potential. Many players under-perform their talent, but it's more notable when a player could have been a top 5-10 all time player. As an example, I'm not sure his raw talent was as high as Jangbi's, but Sea comes to mind for Terran. 2) Being the most "spectacular" on the battlefield. In this sense, Sea is not an analog of Jangbi. Jaedong is an obvious answer, though I wonder which less successful Zerg players especially stand out to you. Potential is hard to gauge. For all we know, the greatest Brood War talent of all-time may have never touched the game. It is quite hard to draw parallels to a player with such clearly defined characteristics, and combine that with potential greatness. The main characteristics of JangBi as a gamer would be: 1) High eAPM 2) Great mastery of numerous styles of micro-management warfare 3) Unhealthy levels of preference of using micro-management warfare to win matches 4) Mediocre in terms of other vital skill-sets, which means no well rounded players with acute micro-management abilities Out of the more contemporary players (meaning I'll rule out players such as July), the player that came to mind was HiyA for the terran race, and Jaedong for the zerg race. From a historical perspective, each race had its dimwits who relied heavily on miraculous outplays. Reach's entire legacy consisted of forcing himself into impossible situations with the most spineless, uninspiring decision making, then pulling himself out of it with glorious out-plays that looked great in the highlight reels. July's entire game plan centered around his level of execution of numerous zerg plays being approximately one to two years ahead of his time. Hwasin, mentioned by a previous post in this thread, was a bit of special case of a great one-dimensional player who relied on greedy builds to hit a specific hard-to-stop timing, then executing that push to absolute perfection, but literally being able to do nothing noteworthy outside of that. On a personal level, I found it hard it quite difficult to be amazed by sheer mechanical prowess after I witnessed NaDa during his prime. From a raw unit manipulation stand-point, I think I saw pretty much all there was to see from the terran race from NaDa before Flash even made his professional debut. As far as I'm concerned, NaDa was the last terran to truly blow my mind with raw mechanical ability. NaDa's clean execution of late-game battlecruiser warfare. + Show Spoiler + Flash's execution of the exact same play more than three years later, isn't exactly putting NaDa's plays to shame, if anything, it is the reverse. For all that other stuff, such as micro-management of bionic units, you can argue that Flash is spending his mental resources on more important matters, but this is the one situation where nothing but micro-management matters. + Show Spoiler + Taking into consideration the kind of micro-management advancements for the other two races, it is not quite the case. For example, the level of mutalisk micro-management, or stutter stepping dragoons versus mines were improved significantly. Case in point. This is sAviOr, the best zerg in the world at the pinnacle of his career showcasing his mutalisk micro-management. + Show Spoiler + Jaedong flaunting his mechanical prowess in that very same year. + Show Spoiler + Of course, advancements cannot be simply judged simply from straightforward micro-management improvements. However, this is why I have never been thoroughly impressed by Flash from a sheer micro-management perspective. People such as Leta, and FanTaSy were able to take me by surprise with their fluidity when it came to the unit of their liking, but with Flash, it was more an appreciation of his solid fundamentals, rather than being blown away. | ||
|
VioleTAK
4280 Posts
This 3-3-3 is unique! I almost hope it'll not go to 3-3-4 :-) Why ruin such a beautiful number. Time for a new champion. | ||
|
Caladbolg
2855 Posts
Now while I really like these posts by Letmelose, I do think he's underestimating Bisu's flashiness (pun intended) in terms of micro especially with difficult-to-micro units such as Dragoons. And of course, Probe micro will forever be a Bisu signature move. As well as Sair-DT. And these moments, while not exactly massive battles (more like extended skirmishes), make or break games. I mean, even just dodging scourge well is something I've seen Bisu do more consistently than any other protoss. But lest I be misunderstood, I do agree that Stork is the better micro player. His reaver play is just so beautiful. I just don't think Bisu loses too much in that department to him or to Jangbi. Or maybe my point is, he is just as enjoyable to watch as the other two in terms of micro, though his strengths are with different units. PS: Also, Light TvZ micro was such a delight to watch | ||
|
Jealous
10107 Posts
| ||
|
Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
| ||
|
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On November 17 2017 11:52 Caladbolg wrote: Haven't logged in forever. But I'm happy Flash won, and that Bisu is in such good form! Now while I really like these posts by Letmelose, I do think he's underestimating Bisu's flashiness (pun intended) in terms of micro especially with difficult-to-micro units such as Dragoons. And of course, Probe micro will forever be a Bisu signature move. As well as Sair-DT. And these moments, while not exactly massive battles (more like extended skirmishes), make or break games. I mean, even just dodging scourge well is something I've seen Bisu do more consistently than any other protoss. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leU4lyVFCD0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12BZjrGJxH8 https://youtu.be/26-YW4Qcj-o?t=750 But lest I be misunderstood, I do agree that Stork is the better micro player. His reaver play is just so beautiful. I just don't think Bisu loses too much in that department to him or to Jangbi. Or maybe my point is, he is just as enjoyable to watch as the other two in terms of micro, though his strengths are with different units. PS: Also, Light TvZ micro was such a delight to watch I would agree that Bisu is indeed better than any other protoss players when it comes to niche micro-management abilities such as initial probe harassment, early zealot harassment, mid-game dark templar harassment, and corsair management. However, note that most these micro-management moves are difficult to replicate due to the heavy multi-tasking demands they put on the user, not actual frustration of maneuvering these units by itself. There's a reason why Bisu was often categorized as the unorthodox protoss, due to his match-up preferences, and mastery of micro-management not necessarily associated with more classical skill-based protoss players. Dragoons are quite cumbersome in their movements, and I would agree that it is a pure micro-management art-form of keeping them in check. free is a virtuoso in that regard, and is proficient at both small scale skirmishing involving dragoons, as well as more large scale battles. While Bisu has his fair share of epic small scale dragoon micro-management highlights, it is almost of a right of passage to be recognized as an elite protoss player in general, since dragoons are basically the bread and butter of the protoss race, and it is vital to ensure they don't do the dumb things they happen to do if left unchecked. It would be harder to not find amazing dragoon micro-management clips from any well renowned protoss player, whether it is the more ancient protoss players such as Reach, Nal_rA, and Kingdom, or more recent players such as Bisu, Stork, or JangBi. I would admit to having higher micro-management demands from Bisu since I personally categorize him as more of a mechanically proficient player than a cerebral player. In fact, in terms of raw mechanical prowess, Bisu has the perfect hardware for Brood War, but most of my frustrations comes from him not being able to replicate the kind of micro-management mastery possessed by numerous protoss legends, although he indeed does have his superlative moments in terms of micro-management, they are mirrored by his catastrophic micro-management failures. Both Stork and JangBi have decent to superlative levels of micro-management for almost all protoss arsenal of weaponry, while Bisu is way more erratic, and ranges from sub-par to superlative. It would be like crowning FanTaSy as the epitome of terran micro-management just for his extra-ordinary vulture and valkyrie micro-management abilities, when the guy had serious, crippling flaws in terms of micro-management elsewhere. Bisu was a player that was held back due to his micro-management deficiencies throughout his career, especially versus the terran race. It doesn't stop just there, Bisu was indeed a god in the mirror-match-up, but even in that realm, his reaver micro-management during battles had a lot to be desired on numerous occasions, and this was one of the opportunities for slower, but more battle-focused protoss players such as Stork, or free to take advantage of that. I know I keep bringing up footballing analogies that may not register with some people, but hear me out: High eAPM figures: raw athletic ability Micro-management proficiency: technical ability with the ball Decision making in game: decision making on the pitch So if Flash was a football player, he would be the kind of player who was strong athletically, and was an absolute god at making the right decisions, being at the right place at the right time. His technique would be decent, but not the main focus of his craft. This kind of player would take a more nuanced approach to appreciate. Jaedong would be a fantastic athlete blessed with unparalleled technique on the ball, perhaps like a pre-injury Ronaldo. Not the smartest player by any means, but the combination of these two aspects made for a fantastic viewing experience, even if the actual movement on the pitch wasn't the most optimal or tactically sound. Bisu would be the ultimate athlete with unmatched speed and power, and some magical technical proficiency, but also cursed with really underwhelming technical abilities in other areas. Whether it was a devastating weakness like a horrible first touch, dribbling ability, or shooting accuracy. Imagine being able to run faster than almost any other player on the planet, and having a amazing dribbling abilities, but being cursed with the first touch, and shooting ability of a bench player. It is literally the most frustrating thing to experience. Yes, this kind of player whilst running full speed would be the most glorious thing to witness, but imagine it takes seven botched first touches out of ten opportunities to allow this spectacle to take place in the first place, or those glorious dribbling runs that go past literally everybody often ends up with a shot at an empty goal that ends up heading for the moon instead of the back of the net. I find Bisu extremely frustrating to watch at times, especially if it happens to be the micro-management side of things letting him down, since I tend to put more emphasis on that particular aspect as a spectator. However, if you wish to see a multi-tasking virtuoso at work, and are able to let some shit slide, Bisu is definitely a joy to follow. As for Light, Flash during his professional years likened him to a supercomputer due to his machine like execution of set plays on the screen. He had insanely high eAPM figures, great multi-tasking abilities, and top notch micro-management abilities. In terms of sheer overall mechanical ability, I actually rated him highest out of any terran players during his professional years, but I think Flash has superseded in that particular aspect also. I don't necessarily swoon for mechanically adept players, if their play-making abilities are not well defined. HiyA was more of a play-maker in all three match-ups, and tried to flaunt his mechanical abilities which included my personal fetish of micro-management. Light was passive as hell in the terran-versus-protoss match-up, and it didn't matter how mechanically sound he was if he never did anything with it. His terran-versus-zerg was crisp, and I dare say some aspects of his standard bionic play was superior even when contrasted versus Flash. However, I would argue that Light was a multi-tasking freak of nature like Bisu, and combined that with flawless execution in terms of micro-management, rather than trying to force pure micro-management outplays like Casy did. While I do appreciate my personal dream of seeing phenomenal micro-management being in sync with perfect multi-tasking, I also prefer a shift towards the micro-management side of things. JangBi is the perfect example of that, and Light, for all his micro-management artistry, is more of a multi-tasking monstrosity. I wish that the show-match between Light versus Bisu on Arcadia was captured on VOD. It was on a show where the new young blood of MBC Game HERO were being introduced to the audience. That game between Light and Bisu on Arcadia, where both sides basically drained all the available resources on the map in a pure battle of multi-tasking warfare, was an insane match. Light came back from a disadvantageous position, and just non-stop vulture harassed Bisu on multiple fronts, avoiding the range of defensive cannons to snipe every available probe to slowly claw his way back. On that show, his coach said that Light in a disadvantageous position had the ability to summon superlative powers. Even during his professional years, Light would have games where he would just straight-up own Jaedong in a multi-tasking warfare, and that almost never happened versus any terran players including Flash. + Show Spoiler + I don't know what happened to Light after he retired from professional play, but his multi-tasking abilities are a shadow of what they once were. In terms of pure multi-tasking ability, Light during his professional years was up there with the absolute best, now, not so much. However, I remember Light tiring his opponents through superior stamina in terms of mental focus, and slowly tearing his enemy apart with superior multi-tasking and basically jabbing his opponents to death rather than being a fantastic in-fighter who could decide the fate of the game with once in a lifetime out-play at any single moment. Again, it's a stylistic thing as well as a proficiency issue. Multi-tasking beasts are indeed fun to watch, but I much prefer those who have a micro-management out-play gene in them. A combination of both, with a heavier emphasis on micro-managament out-plays, would be ideal for me in terms of visual enjoyment. Jaedong during his prime was the closest to fit that particular bill for me. | ||
|
Jealous
10107 Posts
If anyone is interested in another game which in my mind is one of the best showcases Bisu's multitasking and harassment-oriented PvZ: + Show Spoiler [Bisu vs. Roro on Tau] + | ||
|
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
Light was passive as hell in the terran-versus-protoss match-up, Virtually every game of light ive ever seen he does a timing push in tvp... | ||
|
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On November 18 2017 08:08 Dazed. wrote: Virtually every game of light ive ever seen he does a timing push in tvp... Are you talking about his games as a streamer, or during his professional years? Light during his professional years was known for winning really long drawn out games where his multi-tasking abilities kicked in, or attempting awkward timing attacks that rarely worked. At the core of his nature, I perceived Light as a passive gamer without killer instincts, and someone who relied heavily on multi-tasking and late-game prowess to overcome his enemies. Which is why I did not categorize him as a play-maker, despite the fact that he had numerous failed attempts at doing that kind of a play-style, because these kind of play-making where everything hinged on one single moment, did not come to him naturally in my opinion. Would you personally categorize Light during his professional years as a great timing-attack player in the terran-versus-protoss match-up? I actually think Light brought out some of the worst qualities within him when he did all these early do-or-die moves. Mechanical proficiency, and being a good play-maker does not come in tandem. I should have said Light never did anything successfully when he tried to break his mold as a passive player, but I still believe Light was an extremely passive player who had an over-reliance on his clean late-game execution, and multi-tasking abilities, and while that alone was a frightening prospect in the terran-versus-zerg match-up, it wasn't quite enough for him to win him games in the more difficult match-up of terran-versus-protoss with any consistency, which is why he may have tried to do all his horrible-to-watch early game strategies that simply did not suit him well. | ||
|
Jealous
10107 Posts
| ||
|
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On November 18 2017 12:04 Jealous wrote: Speaking of great timing attack players, have you written anything on ForGG? ^^ I would draw parallels between him and Hwasin as players who were notorious for their timing attacks. I personally think Hwasin was better at coming up with abusive builds that were designed to snipe a certain build before the game started then executing them to perfection, but he really wasn't adaptive in nature. I personally would picture Hwasin as the type to grind the exact same moves over and over again during practice in hopes that identical situation would come up during the televised games. It would explain the immaculate nature of his timings and execution. Hwasin to me is a product of painstaking preparation, and literally a sniper in all senses of the word. fOrGG was better at finding great timings within the flow of the game itself. Hwasin's style had a significant rehearsed nature about it, while fOrGG seemed to be more instinctive with his timings. Hwasin literally had builds that would straight up die to any builds that would stray from the build Hwasin intended to snipe. It would explain why Hwasin would lose terribly to Bisu, but actually did much better versus Stork, who was way more predictable with his builds. fOrGG, on the other hand, would try to make a timing happen within the game, rather than preparing a really obnoxious build beforehand. He would sense weakness at a certain timing, then strike for the kill. It worked quite well versus Bisu, who was not as solid in his style, but that worked horribly versus Stork, who would start out safe, and actually had very little timings to abuse unless you started off with a significant build advantage. Stork was someone that was somewhat who would get over-complacent at times, and would put himself into positions where he was extremely vulnerable to counter-builds (case in point, his finals versus Flash and FanTaSy where he got straight-up demolished despite having significant map pool advantage for both series). fOrGG never managed to abuse that factor, while Hwasin was able to do that. | ||
|
Jealous
10107 Posts
On November 18 2017 13:20 Letmelose wrote: I would draw parallels between him and Hwasin as players who were notorious for their timing attacks. I personally think Hwasin was better at coming up with abusive builds that were designed to snipe a certain build before the game started then executing them to perfection, but he really wasn't adaptive in nature. I personally would picture Hwasin as the type to grind the exact same moves over and over again during practice in hopes that identical situation would come up during the televised games. It would explain the immaculate nature of his timings and execution. Hwasin to me is a product of painstaking preparation, and literally a sniper in all senses of the word. fOrGG was better at finding great timings within the flow of the game itself. Hwasin's style had a significant rehearsed nature about it, while fOrGG seemed to be more instinctive with his timings. Hwasin literally had builds that would straight up die to any builds that would stray from the build Hwasin intended to snipe. It would explain why Hwasin would lose terribly to Bisu, but actually did much better versus Stork, who was way more predictable with his builds. fOrGG, on the other hand, would try to make a timing happen within the game, rather than preparing a really obnoxious build beforehand. He would sense weakness at a certain timing, then strike for the kill. It worked quite well versus Bisu, who was not as solid in his style, but that worked horribly versus Stork, who would start out safe, and actually had very little timings to abuse unless you started off with a significant build advantage. Stork was someone that was somewhat who would get over-complacent at times, and would put himself into positions where he was extremely vulnerable to counter-builds (case in point, his finals versus Flash and FanTaSy where he got straight-up demolished despite having significant map pool advantage for both series). fOrGG never managed to abuse that factor, while Hwasin was able to do that. Thanks! Any comments on fOrGG's title run? Still one of my favorite dark horse runs of all time in any sport or game. | ||
|
Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
| ||
|
kangaroo_in_diaper
3 Posts
Second, the analogy of football is definitely a long shot as there is no race in football. Thus, comparing Jaedong, Bisu and Flash using football are more or less apple vs orange, or perhaps Ronaldo vs Sergio Ramos. Finally, Flash is perfect and the perfection is indeed boring because there is nothing to expect. Flash always win, there is no surprise, which as a result makes the audience bored. More importantly, Flash is also very stable and not sloppy like any other players. In football there is a saying that "Form is temporary, Class is forever". That is also true in Starcraft. When Fantasy, Light were at their best in some matches, they might be better than Flash, but after all, it is just temporary. | ||
|
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On November 21 2017 10:08 kangaroo_in_diaper wrote: Letmelose have presented very interesting observations, and although I appreciate most of his opinions, I still think he underappreciates Flash in many ways. First, micromanagement is important in the game but at the pro level, I think it does not really matter, as all pro players already have sufficient skills to control their units in the way they want. Of course outstanding micro can sometimes get the audience stunned but in general, it is not smart to spend a large portion of APM to impress the audience. The analogy I can make is basketball. For example, height is very important in basketball, but you don't need to be too tall to play basketball. And after a certain point, height does not really matter. Yao Ming is not as great as Michael Jordan although he is much taller. Similar to height in basketball, after a certain point, I can say that micro skill does not matter at all. In case of Flash, I don't think Flash cannot micro as good as Bisu, just because he is not able to do so. Micromanagement is possible to learn and improve like any other skills by practice (our genes certainly do not know Starcraft). In case of Starcraft, micromanagement consumes APM, and Flash chooses to spend his APM on other actions rather than getting the audience stunned. At the end of the day, what really matters is winning and winning in Starcraft requires a little bit of everything. Second, the analogy of football is definitely a long shot as there is no race in football. Thus, comparing Jaedong, Bisu and Flash using football are more or less apple vs orange, or perhaps Ronaldo vs Sergio Ramos. Finally, Flash is perfect and the perfection is indeed boring because there is nothing to expect. Flash always win, there is no surprise, which as a result makes the audience bored. More importantly, Flash is also very stable and not sloppy like any other players. In football there is a saying that "Form is temporary, Class is forever". That is also true in Starcraft. Brood War is a competitive game, not a performance art. I started off the thread with the stance that nothing outside of competitive results can be considered more significant, whether it is popularity, proficiency at certain aspects of the game, or potential skill cap. I believe I stated that train of thought multiple times throughout this thread. With that being said, what I am not for, is what I perceive to be false narratives based on wishful thinking, or circular logic. What I am saying with the football analogy that being faster, and being more technically proficient with the ball are undeniably positive factors that aid a player to achieve greatness. However, being a superior player overall does not auto-matically make you faster, or haver a finer first touch than a player of lesser overall capacity. Messi was never the single greatest athlete (sprinting, stamina etc) on the planet, and although Messi during his prime was the greatest player we have seen in recent times, that doesn't mean that Messi was thoroughly complete and immaculate in every conceivable manner. It isn't blasphemous to suggest that Messi even during his prime was never the greatest athlete in terms of raw stamina, when it is undeniable that having more stamina is an asset that comes in handy. Flash being superior to other players overall speaks very little about his actual ability to manipulate his units to the very highest degree. Just like Messi was once the greatest by some distance without having a bull-like stamina. It is possible to reach a certain godlike status without being actually perfect. Flash is the closest to perfection a human has gotten at the game of Brood War, but he is far from perfect, and that is the beauty of the game. Even Flash can get better, and the fact that he loses games due getting outplayed from a micro-managament perspective counters your argument that micro-management becomes useless after a certain point. Even though no human will ever reach the theoretical skill-cap of this game, it doesn't necessarily mean we have already seen the absolute possible threshold for human capabilities. Flash is the fore-runner thus far, but you and I have very contrasting opinions of what constitutes a perfect player. If it is circular logic and menial complements for Flash that you seek, I'm sorry I am not in agreement that Flash must be perfect because he seems that way in your eyes. | ||
|
Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On November 21 2017 11:06 Letmelose wrote: Brood War is a competitive game, not a performance art. I started off the thread with the stance that nothing outside of competitive results can be considered more significant, whether it is popularity, proficiency at certain aspects of the game, or potential skill cap. I believe I stated that train of thought multiple times throughout this thread. With that being said, what I am not for, is what I perceive to be false narratives based on wishful thinking, or circular logic. What I am saying with the football analogy that being faster, and being more technically proficient with the ball are undeniably positive factors that aid a player to achieve greatness. However, being a superior player overall does not auto-matically make you faster, or haver a finer first touch than a player of lesser overall capacity. You are the one with the false narrative, mate, because you are tilting at a strawman. No one is claiming Flash has better micromanagement than other players. All we are saying is that micromanagement is not an undeniably positive factor for greatness. Micro uses APM and brainpower. Flash uses his APM for something else that's far more important - WINNING. All that matter is whatever efficient actions are necessary to WIN. Is it sometimes micro? Sure. Is it always micro? Hell fucking no. And to claim that micro is an undeniably positive factor for "greatness" is bullshit. Starcraft isn't an RPG. It's an RTS, and in an RTS, and decisions matter much more than fancy control - otherwise Flash would not have such a winning record vs nearly everyone. So that's why Flash is perfect - because he has mastered the art of good decisions, and therefore he WINS - and victory is the only objective criteria for perfection. Now please bow before God and gtfo. User was warned for this post | ||
|
Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
That's perfection. And that's the only standard that matters. | ||
|
Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
Flash plays as if he is omniscient and omnipotent, and forces his opponents to make mistakes. That is what I enjoy, much more than mere micro clicking. | ||
|
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On November 21 2017 16:56 Shady Sands wrote: You are the one with the false narrative, mate, because you are tilting at a strawman. No one is claiming Flash has better micromanagement than other players. All we are saying is that micromanagement is not an undeniably positive factor for greatness. Micro uses APM and brainpower. Flash uses his APM for something else that's far more important - WINNING. All that matter is whatever efficient actions are necessary to WIN. Is it sometimes micro? Sure. Is it always micro? Hell fucking no. And to claim that micro is an undeniably positive factor for "greatness" is bullshit. Starcraft isn't an RPG. It's an RTS, and in an RTS, and decisions matter much more than fancy control - otherwise Flash would not have such a winning record vs nearly everyone. So that's why Flash is perfect - because he has mastered the art of good decisions, and therefore he WINS - and victory is the only objective criteria for perfection. Now please bow before God and gtfo. I'll bring it down to your speed, if Flash was in possession of superior micro-management, he would win even more. Perfection implies no room for improvement, and you clearly have more freedom with that vernacular than I do, but you do realize that you're arguing against a straw man argument yourself, right? This is my response to a post that implied Flash had the greatest anti-air goliath micro-management out of any player. On November 15 2017 10:40 Letmelose wrote: I have never thought Flash's goliath micro-managament by itself was the greatest of all-time. Exactly what is so mechanically jaw dropping about literally dozens of fully upgraded goliaths shooting carriers down like flies? What sets apart Flash is the ability to create situations that doesn't force his hand to create miracles out his units, not the actual miracle making itself. We have other legendary players for that specific department. I'm not saying micro-management abilities alone win you games (case in point, Flash alongside numerous other legendary players who built up their legacy without godlike micro-management). Reading comprehension seems to be more urgent of an issue to you, than Flash's honour, at the moment. Try it out sometimes, it works wonders for discussion threads such as this. | ||
|
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
Аll of this is because many people - myself included, but I'm fighting it - cannot stand someone saying there's players better than Flash at *insert random skill here*. Especially something seemingly so basic for a progamer as micromanagement. He has great micro, just guys like Leta and Fantasy have stood out over the years and Nada has set a REALLY high bar. I personally think his tank leapfrogging - especially in early timing pushes - is right there with the best of them - and it's a peculiar kind of micro. I think if he has something of a RPG-element to his micromanagement, this is it. Not the Flash of old, who would just defend IMPECCABLY and then kill you with a big timing push, because he has cut just enough corners and is just that much faster on macro. He can sometimes play really, really aggressively. The game vs Bisu on Gladiator in ASL 4 semis was a showcase, I think. | ||
|
fko
2 Posts
On November 21 2017 16:56 Shady Sands wrote: Starcraft isn't an RPG. It's an RTS, and in an RTS, and decisions matter much more than fancy control - otherwise Flash would not have such a winning record vs nearly everyone. So that's why Flash is perfect - because he has mastered the art of good decisions, and therefore he WINS - and victory is the only objective criteria for perfection. I strongly second that! Starcraft is not a Role Playing Game. Too much micro = emphasis on the RPG aspects of the game. Starcraft is Real Time Strategy. That is: very fast and very good decisions. Split-second cost-benefit analysis on where to invest your eAPM to maximize the benefits for the next 10 minutes of the game (strategy), and not only for the next 1 minute (tactics). Flash is really treating Starcraft as Total War. By that, I mean: it is not only about the in-game execution / mechanics / etc.. It's about all the analysis and the mind-games that are done even before the actual game starts. Flash is investing a lot of time and thinking, into those "before the game" aspects of the game. He starts focusing (narrowing down) his analysis on the specifics of his potential opponents, weeks in advance. You think that when he was analyzing the game of Mind versus Rush, he was just doing that for the fans? No! He was already searching for weaknesses of Mind that he could exploit in a direct confrontation. Of course, he keeps of the details he observes to himself (not share with the fans). It's part of the preparation. It's part of the competitive advantage he builds for himself. Also, the preparation before the countdown: - he always tries to stay well hydrated and not let his glucose level drop. He knows his brain needs to perform at 100% every second of the game. - measuring his setup with the ruler. Perfect posture. Maximum focus without getting tense. Focused calm. - in bo3 or bo5, many times after a game, he gets up and out of the booth, to disconnect and refresh his mind and body. All these details add up. And at the level he is playing, he knows that you cannot overlook any detail in order to win. And not just win once. Win consistently for many years. Keep a very high level of form and performance over a long period of time. That's what being serious, professional gamer means. Do the amateur Starcraft players find all this not so entertaining? Well, put yourself in his shoes. Would you risk not winning 50 k dollars, only to make sure the fans are entertained? 3-3-3. Enough said! | ||
|
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
But implying that every aspect of his gameplay is the best out of anyone is intellectually dishonest, even if he is the best player overall. | ||
|
Liquid`Drone
Norway28597 Posts
The footballer analogies are on point, too. Messi is the player ever to perform at the highest ability. But he's not close to being the best at every element that makes a football player great - he's the best at the most important elements. Flash is the player ever to perform at the highest ability. But he's not the best at every element that makes a brood war player great - he's the best at the most important elements. Stating that his micro isn't the best doesn't mean 'flashy micro is the most important ability aspect of being a great bw player'. | ||
|
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On November 22 2017 01:39 Liquid`Drone wrote: Some of you guys arguing against letmelose really seem to struggle understanding what he's saying. He's not saying that Flash should focus more on micro, or that he's bad at it, or anything like that. He's saying that there are elements of his unit control that is slightly less perfect than that of other players and that he would indeed be even better if he improved at those elements. There's nothing in that statement suggesting that it'd be beneficial for Flash to spend more of his time in game microing vultures. Even the best reaver microer in the world would benefit from becoming even better at always picking up the fraction of the second the reaver fires its scarab. The footballer analogies are on point, too. Messi is the player ever to perform at the highest ability. But he's not close to being the best at every element that makes a football player great - he's the best at the most important elements. Flash is the player ever to perform at the highest ability. But he's not the best at every element that makes a brood war player great - he's the best at the most important elements. Stating that his micro isn't the best doesn't mean 'flashy micro is the most important ability aspect of being a great bw player'. This is interesting and makes me ask another question. Flash certainly could improve on certain elements of his play, but I wonder how much of his current play is routine and muscle memory and all? After playing tens of thousands of games progamers surely have their own unique ways of doing stuff. Would it be beneficial to try and develop or adopt an entirely new way of controlling units? Or is it down to small adjustments, not a big shift? Would it be WORTH it making changes in a style of play that has him already being one of the best, if not the best, player to ever play the game? There is always obviously room for improvement, that is for certain, but can Flash afford to invest time and effort in micro when he is being successful by investing in other stuff? And I realize this is the highest possible level of play and there are adjustments that are all but invisible to most casual players, even with years of watching and analyzing pro-level Brood War. And, to be honest, I've always thought micro is a bit more unstable in terms of relying on it to win you a game. A small slip, a palm that is sweaty and mousepad that is slippery, a hotkey not working the exact tiny fraction of a second that you need it to, and you might lose the game. Remember the issue Stork had vs sSak (I think it was him) in last ASL with having a different hotkey setup loaded and having to unload his shuttles using his mouse only? I guess all aspects of pro-level play are roughly equally important, but in micro-intensive scenarios the randomness factor seems to have more weight. That may be one reason Flash is setting up his stuff with a goddamn ruler, to lessen any chance of accidental misplay due to his mouse being 1,4 centimeters to the left of where it usually is. Micro is also probably the skill that is most affected by physiological state, e.g. sickness, lack of sleep/food/water and so on. Maybe he just adapted his play as to leave as little as possible to chance and chaos. | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On November 22 2017 01:32 The_Red_Viper wrote: Flash fans getting super defensive (or even aggressive) when somebody doesn't praise every single aspect of his gameplay. Yes he does what it takes to win and it works for him, noone is denying that. It was simply about the style of gameplay he brings on the table and if that's entertaining compared to other players. Not everyone has to agree there either. But implying that every aspect of his gameplay is the best out of anyone is intellectually dishonest, even if he is the best player overall. I agree with this sentiment. There's a reason FlaSh can still lose games and I don't think he's perfect. He's unquestionably the greatest, best player. But being the best does not mean being the best in everything. Michael Jordan was nowhere near the best shooter in the NBA, but the sum of all his parts, being a fantastic defender, offensive powerhouse, clutch factor, great teammate, were what made him the greatest. One could say the same about FlaSh, all of his skills are well above average, but he's definitely not the best vulture micro-er, his marine control is great but not as good as someone like Light, not the best air micro like a Hiya or Leta (2 port wraith ayy), but his methodical ability to gain incremental advantages over the course of a game with proper focus on where to spend his attention allows him to get away with not perfect micro in most cases. | ||
|
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On November 22 2017 04:19 FlaShFTW wrote: I agree with this sentiment. There's a reason FlaSh can still lose games and I don't think he's perfect. He's unquestionably the greatest, best player. But being the best does not mean being the best in everything. Michael Jordan was nowhere near the best shooter in the NBA, but the sum of all his parts, being a fantastic defender, offensive powerhouse, clutch factor, great teammate, were what made him the greatest. One could say the same about FlaSh, all of his skills are well above average, but he's definitely not the best vulture micro-er, his marine control is great but not as good as someone like Light, not the best air micro like a Hiya or Leta (2 port wraith ayy), but his methodical ability to gain incremental advantages over the course of a game with proper focus on where to spend his attention allows him to get away with not perfect micro in most cases. That's the beautiful thing about starcraft (and any other art/competition/anything which requires mastery basically), there are so many different aspects to the game you can get better at that noone will ever be good at every single one (good is relative compared to the peers) We have concepts like macro, micro, decision making, etc but you can specify and find sub tasks for every single one of these, etc. The best overall player wins the most, that's the ultimate objective of competing in starcraft, but it's more than that, it's also showcasing your personality in your play. Some kind of self-fulfillment through the game. If a game can give people the opportunity to do that then that's a beautiful thing. | ||
|
Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Although I question some of the assertions about Flash's specific deficiencies,* it's obvious that he's not perfect and that there's room for improvement. He can lose like anyone else, although he does most of his losing offstage because he's so experienced in the mental preparation and outwitting that wins games onstage. But that's not what got this whole snowball rolling, with the football analogies and everything. The snowball got rolling because people were discussing whether Flash's style was entertaining. I can see how some people might find other styles more entertaining. For example, Letmelose said that he prefers a style in which a player seeks to outmultitask the opponent incrementally while also being willing to throw the dice on a big play and having the skill to succeed in it. That's Jaedong, and I wouldn't blame anyone for preferring that style. That's not the only way of being entertaining, though. With Flash it's more about learning that there are ways to win that you never thought of, and that an impossible situation has an escape. Watching him escape the impossible situation is different than watching Jaedong micro two control groups of mutas at once, but for me both are entertaining. Flash's genius in this regard is easiest to appreciate in games he wins narrowly, but sometimes you'll see it when he wins easily or loses. He can see the path that nobody else sees. Flash vs Sea on Crossing Field in ASL2: Flash had an unfavorable map split in a late game that was going to battlecruisers. Sea was reinforcing the bottom base (which in an even map split would belong to Flash) with tanks, BCs, and turrets. From his position, for Flash to take this base would be as easy as stepping out of his booth and jumping to the Moon. But somehow he chipped away at it and dropped goliaths and Yamato gunned and, bit by bit, he actually took that expansion from Sea. I couldn't believe it. He still lost but it was amazing. Flash vs Best on Fortress in KeSPA days: Flash took him apart with nothing but dropship harassment. Drop the main, drop the natural. Drop the main, drop the natural. There was no timing push, no siege line, he just won with pure dropship harassment. I've never seen a single game that resembled this one. Flash vs Best on Match Point in KeSPA days: Flash dusts off the nukes. He tries to nuke Best, but Best uses stasis field on the ghost. He tries again, and Best tries to use stasis field on the ghost, but Flash uses EMP on the arbiter that would cast stasis field, and the nuke goes off. Flash vs Savior on Blue Storm in KeSPA days: Flash is getting wrecked all game by mutas, then he starts getting wrecked by guardians. He does the science vessel eraser of a lifetime and goes on to win a lost game. I could go on, but I don't always remember the right map or tournament, and it's not very rewarding to the reader for me to share all my memories if they're not specific. Flash sees a way forward that nobody else can see, including when all seems lost. This is essentially why I can't help cheering for him. Granted, his easier victories are sometimes boring to watch unless you understand the subtleties of why an otherwise competent opponent just rolled over and died --- and I don't always understand those subtleties --- but when his opponents rise to the challenge, and force Flash to rise to the challenge, the games can be terrific. *Like, about Light's marine micro. Is it really better than Flash's? I dunno, but I remember seeing a recent translated Jaedong comment to the effect that Flash's marine micro was uniquely frustrating to play against because he knows where the mutas want to go and will fake you out. There is a mental aspect to micro as well as a mechanical one. I've never seen Flash compete in a micro UMS game, and I'll warrant that there are players who could beat him at that, but I've often observed him to be exceedingly good in the mental aspect of micro (maneuvering to keep his units in the positions that will cause greatest surprise/distress to the opponent and/or storming defenses through speed when the opponent is not expecting a battle.) On a similar note, I think Fantasy's vulture dominance comes from the mental aspect. Is he really better at doing patrol micro --- which is a rote task any competent Terran can do --- or is he better at sensing weak spots and slipping past defenses to exploit them? For me it's the latter. I recall a translated Flash comment from the 2009/10 era to the effect that he wished that he had Fantasy's skill at creating chaos on the map. Thus, I believe that Fantasy surpassed Flash in this regard. | ||
|
kangaroo_in_diaper
3 Posts
On November 22 2017 01:32 The_Red_Viper wrote: Flash fans getting super defensive (or even aggressive) when somebody doesn't praise every single aspect of his gameplay. Yes he does what it takes to win and it works for him, noone is denying that. It was simply about the style of gameplay he brings on the table and if that's entertaining compared to other players. Not everyone has to agree there either. But implying that every aspect of his gameplay is the best out of anyone is intellectually dishonest, even if he is the best player overall. Nobody here saying that Flash is the best in every aspect. Nobody. In fact I am denying the argument that Flash style should be improved/adjusted in some aspects like micromanagement to be more ENTERTAINING. Why? Analogically, it is like people love Messi style and still want Ronaldo to improve in the style that defined by Messi, because to them Ronaldo's style is not entertaining. Or you enjoy wrestling and feel like boxing should adopt some things from wrestling to become more entertaining. It does not make any sense. I guess the only thing that would be entertaining to some of you (and to me as well) here in Starcraft specifically that someone who is able to become the new rival of Flash. On that day, we would again enjoy the game as we used to, at least because we have something to predict. Period. | ||
|
darktreb
United States3016 Posts
Letmelose put it well in a previous post somewhere. Some players are beloved, almost independent of their performance. Others are begrudgingly admired at best. Outside of a core group of fans (a group that's substantially smaller than Bisu's, Jaedong's, and probably even Stork's), Flash has always been in the latter camp. If you're one of his fans, it sometimes feels like there's this never ending quest to diminish Flash in some way. It's a bit tiresome, and sometimes these frustrations boil over, leading to posts like a few of those in this thread which defend Flash in silly or petty ways, while lashing out fair critiques of his play. It's not rational, but fandom never is. The issue isn't that people are sufficiently acknowledging Flash's greatness. To be frank, he removed all doubt ages ago, and his ASL threepeat is just icing on the cake for the greatest player of all time. (*) (*) Sorry Nada fans, I get the argument for him, but even disregarding ASL, the fact that the # of OSL and MSL went from three per year almost every year, to being much less frequent, followed by SC2 murdering professional BW, is the tiebreaker to me. If Flash was allowed to have Nada's opportunity career length-wise, I think it's reasonable to argue that even if he didn't stay as #1, and new blood entered the scene (or people like Rain and Bogus/Innovation had channeled their talents toward BW in a professional team house environment), he likely still would have found a way to claw out another title or two before it was all said and done, and continued to perform at an extremely high level in Proleague. The issue is that even when people praise Flash, it inevitably comes with "yeah but". Every fan is entitled to their opinion, but after awhile, like I said above, the word "tiresome" comes to mind. Performance-wise, Flash basically attained Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzky, or Babe Ruth, level. But unlike the conversation around those players, which is 95% celebratory (probably overly celebratory - you can make an argument for everyone from Wilt to Kareem to LeBron being Jordan's equal, you can make an argument for guys like Bobby Orr being Gretzky's equal, and you can make an argument that Ruth didn't play against black players and guys like Willie Mays or eventually Mike Trout were superior), the conversation around Flash is 95% of the form "yeah, but". Like, "yeah he's the best, but I don't like him", "yeah he's the best, but other inferior players were better in ways I find more appealing", "yeah he's the best, but he's killing the scene", and so on. As Djabanete noted in this thread, there is no shortage of examples of spectacular play by Flash, with "spectacular" defined in ways that the average fan would agree with, i.e. not "spectacular only if you appreciate Flash". But the narrative around him causes these examples to be overlooked, diminished, or outright ignored. At a certain point, confirmation bias dominates the conversation around Flash. If you're looking for the things you don't love about him, you're gonna see them, and the counterexamples will simply go through one ear and out the other. That's what seems to happen a lot with Flash. Again, every fan is entitled to their opinion. I am not trying to argue people should like Flash more, because this is fundamentally a matter of opinion. I'm just trying to explain where this backlash from some of his fans is coming from, so hopefully people who don't like Flash don't use a few outlier examples to further build up their negative imagery of him and his fans. Let's be honest, if we're to be objective, there's nothing like a delusional Bisu fan =P. I still remember going to WCG 2010 and being one of like five people out of a pretty big crowd cheering for him against Jaedong. It was a bit sad to me, because he was at his absolute pinnacle at that time. I know some argue that the players are just as good today but I think that's probably a bit of an exaggeration (players are probably smarter, but the mechanics aren't as good). Flash in October 2010 (when WCG occurred) was probably the absolute pinnacle of raw BW skill combined with experience, "will to win", and the youth necessary for the body and mind to be totally in sync (something that is not true today for Flash, even with how well he plays). After 2+ years of people asserting that there will never another bonjwa, because it's just impossible to attain the level necessary to remove all doubt, Flash exceeded that threshold and more. Obviously what Flash has done is not the same level of achievement, but it was like knowing Picasso is painting in front of you, or Jordan from 95-98, or hearing a lecture by Einstein after relativity had been proven. It was special even then, yet at that WCG (where you had to be a pretty hardcore fan to attend), people didn't really care. It wasn't just the Jaedong factor. Even when he played Kal in the WCG finals, people were rooting for Kal and the applause was muted at best when Flash won. To all the other Flash fans out there, I would say try not to get too caught up in the cycle of diminishment that is Flash's fate. Some players are heroes and others are villains. It's not that people hate Flash, it's just that one of the best things you can say about him is that when he loses, it's an EVENT. Entire career narratives rest disproportionately on players' performance against him. Jangbi's 2-1 over him, Fantasy's 3-0 and Proleague final win after Flash dominated their head-to-head matchup up until 2011, Jaedong's 3 straight finals losses, Effort's status (and I say this as a big Effort fan). The list goes on. If hero had won these finals, it would singlehandedly have bumped his legacy up a notch (moreso than him winning an ASL against any other finals opponent). That's how significant Flash is, even to this day. Hell, Larva's legacy has been enhanced simply by doing decently in STREAMED games against Flash. He doesn't even win a very high % of games against Flash - they just play a lot and Larva occasionally has spectacular wins! Honestly if I wasn't a Flash fan I'd find him annoying too. I feel lucky that his style of play is appealing to me, and that I liked him as a player even before he was the best. Being his fan has been one of the most enriching parts of my BW spectator experience. | ||
|
Miragee
8470 Posts
| ||
|
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Since I felt like this whole narrative that popularity scales inversely with competitive success was factually incorrect, as seen by the varying popularity of incredibly successful Brood War players throughout the years (for example, I don't see sob stories about Bisu's lack of popularity compared to other protoss legends, or how sAviOr lacked popularity when compared to July), and wanted to bring forth more dimension to this issue from a gaming style perspective, I did so in a quite time consuming effort. While these discussions brought forth some interesting debate over the various quirks, as well as the artistry that Flash brings to the table, I will take heed in discussing things about Flash in the future. There's some inner issues with Flash's popularity that some of you guys need figure out for yourselves before doing anything else. | ||
|
kangaroo_in_diaper
3 Posts
On November 21 2017 11:06 Letmelose wrote: Brood War is a competitive game, not a performance art. I started off the thread with the stance that nothing outside of competitive results can be considered more significant, whether it is popularity, proficiency at certain aspects of the game, or potential skill cap. I believe I stated that train of thought multiple times throughout this thread. With that being said, what I am not for, is what I perceive to be false narratives based on wishful thinking, or circular logic. What I am saying with the football analogy that being faster, and being more technically proficient with the ball are undeniably positive factors that aid a player to achieve greatness. However, being a superior player overall does not auto-matically make you faster, or haver a finer first touch than a player of lesser overall capacity. Messi was never the single greatest athlete (sprinting, stamina etc) on the planet, and although Messi during his prime was the greatest player we have seen in recent times, that doesn't mean that Messi was thoroughly complete and immaculate in every conceivable manner. It isn't blasphemous to suggest that Messi even during his prime was never the greatest athlete in terms of raw stamina, when it is undeniable that having more stamina is an asset that comes in handy. Flash being superior to other players overall speaks very little about his actual ability to manipulate his units to the very highest degree. Just like Messi was once the greatest by some distance without having a bull-like stamina. It is possible to reach a certain godlike status without being actually perfect. Flash is the closest to perfection a human has gotten at the game of Brood War, but he is far from perfect, and that is the beauty of the game. Even Flash can get better, and the fact that he loses games due getting outplayed from a micro-managament perspective counters your argument that micro-management becomes useless after a certain point. Even though no human will ever reach the theoretical skill-cap of this game, it doesn't necessarily mean we have already seen the absolute possible threshold for human capabilities. Flash is the fore-runner thus far, but you and I have very contrasting opinions of what constitutes a perfect player. If it is circular logic and menial complements for Flash that you seek, I'm sorry I am not in agreement that Flash must be perfect because he seems that way in your eyes. Starcraft is non-deterministic, just like chess. Thus there is no single algorithm or human being that can solve non-deterministic problems global optimally if that is what you mean. Perfection here is the way Flash executes the game strategically. He does exactly the right thing at exactly the right time in terms of decision making, and more importantly he is able to repeat that again and again. I understand your point that Flash can be out-microed sometimes but do you think that Flash or any pro player would be outmicroed most of the time by any other pro player. Statistically speaking, I don't think you can draw a conclusion that micromanagement really matters at pro level just based on several examples. | ||
|
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On November 22 2017 12:43 kangaroo_in_diaper wrote: Starcraft is non-deterministic, just like chess. Thus there is no single algorithm or human being that can solve non-deterministic problems global optimally if that is what you mean. Perfection here is the way Flash executes the game strategically. He does exactly the right thing at exactly the right time in terms of decision making, and more importantly he is able to repeat that again and again. I understand your point that Flash can be out-microed sometimes but do you think that Flash or any pro player would be outmicroed most of the time by any other pro player. Statistically speaking, I don't think you can draw a conclusion that micromanagement really matters at pro level just based on several examples. Not really. Brood War is more of a multi-faceted craft than chess. The fact that statically speaking Flash usally does not get punished for not quite matching the superlative micro-management abilities found in some of his peers does not mean that micro-management abilities become defunct after a certain point. Just like micro-management abilities were not irrelevant during iloveoov's era when he dominated the scene without having crisp micro-management due to his other extra-ordinary abilities. It speaks more about their other fantastic attributes, rather than micro-management abilities not being relevant at the professional level, which is quite frankly speaking a ludicrous thing to suggest. Statistically speaking, Tyson was incredibly successful at his craft despite his lack of reach compared to some of his peers, due to his outstanding qualities elsewhere. That does not mean reach becomes irrrelevant at the highest level. Excellence can be attained without a perfecting a certain attribute, but that doesn't negate that attribute as a quality worth having. Masking a certain attribute by having amazing capabilities elsewhere can be seen in every walk of life. That is not perfection, that is called playing to your strengths to the best of your abilities. People thought macro-management didn't matter all that much when BoxeR could simply micro-manage you to death. People thought build orders didn't matter all that much when NaDa could simply out muscle you from every mechanical perspective. People thought build orders were all that mattered when iloveoov swept the scene with his superior read on the meta-game. In retrospect, none of them were perfect, and I have no problems with pointing out what I perceive to be potential weak points in Flash's overall skill-sets as a competitor, even though as of now, they don't seem to be all that relevant due to his overwhelming success. Due to the steady decrease in the influx of new talent ever since circa 2005, when Brood War stopped being the most played game in Korea, we have the lowest chance of a new wave of Brood War savants replacing the current gods than ever before, but one never knows. There may be a day when you wished Flash had superior micro-management abilities. | ||
|
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
I was the poster who, as Letmelose put it, vented about “Flash not being popular enough”. My post was two-fold. Its first purpose was to get some/majority of people to first acknowledge that they dislike Flash NOT because he wins all the time. That if another player was winning everthing (I specifically mentioned JD coz he so popular), there would be a lot less people complaining that BW has become stale with only 1 person winning all the time. Only then can we actually have a discussion on why people actually dislike Flash. Would like to also give a thumbs up to Djabenete. What you said was very true sir. To the Flash hater/non-fan: dont take offense. We are not butt hurt. We dont think Flash is perfect/god. We simply wanted to share this wonderful player of broodwar with you. To share with you why we think he is amazing and worthy of appreciation. Greatness is fleeting and once its gone its gone. You only have this one chance to enjoy and appreciate him. We dont want you to waste it. | ||
|
ggsimida
1141 Posts
all these jealous Flash haters at least BW is still alive in 2017 so grateful for that ^^ | ||
|
XiaoJoyce-
China2908 Posts
On November 14 2017 00:11 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: As a Flash fan, I feel sad that almost everyone feels this way. Let me ask people here a question — how many can honestly say they would feel the same way if JD were the one in Flash’s shoes? How many people felt the same way about Jordan or Gretzky? Why is Flash not looked upon as favorably as other players? He doesnt have a bad personality. He has a lot of interesting and funny quirks (twitching, pocari, ruler). Its also not like he burst onto the scene and just dominated, he went thru a lot of really tough losses before rising to the top. Yea, when I first come watch Starcraft BW , Jaedong is at the very top. Every1 say he is the best . And , his death stare, confident , tyrant nickname , play Zerg , just make him the real villain I wan my favourite Terran beat him. Fantasy climb to the finals vs Jaedong I am so hyped because he is replacement for SlayerS BoxeR , the Crown Prince of SKT T1 . Sad he lose . And that time his play sometimes is amazing, sometimes so sad to watch. Then I took notice of Leta and Flash. But that time Flash is rising , and his game vs Bisu (Bisu won with great micro destroy spider mine) make me took more notice of him. Then Nate MSL happen , Flash vs Jaedong! I wan see Flash win Jaedong. he lose but , he is so confident he could win if no power outbreak occur and I believe him . and the whole father upset , he cannot concentrate, just win me over maybe. Support Flash ever since. | ||
|
Caladbolg
2855 Posts
Then I started maining Terran, and found out how extremely fragile Terran units were and how vital positioning was. When I got better, I began appreciating the skills Flash showed. Tank placement, M&M movement, and the various timings one would get with academy tech, factory tech, and science vessels. Slowly but surely, Flash became my favorite player to watch, and eventually my favorite player of all time save for Bisu (who will always have my heart). Fantasy became another favorite because of his exquisite playstyle. I also started watching oov games and grew to appreciate this giant on whose shoulders my two favorite terrans stand. Which leads me to my point: we all have these internal biases going on, for one reason or another, and that will lead us to make irrational points or hold illogical views. But that's ok, because that's what being a fan is about! Effort is an awesome player but I absolutely hate him for that Korean Air finals comeback vs Flash. Ditto for Shine and his many Bisu moments. And that's all ok, because at the end of the day, it's about loving the game and appreciating the many different players whose playstyles we can all enjoy one way or another. | ||
|
geod
Vietnam450 Posts
If Starcraft is war then Flash is the top commander of the world war. He works (macro, micro) with armies not solders. At another extreme, Boxer is the top commander of wars at division scale. He with work with each solder, tell them personally when, where and how to move and to shoot. If a Starcraft clip is a movie then it's obviously that Flash style is not entertaining for the mass as Boxer's style. Boxer's clip is a non-stop action movie about a heroic marine who will destroy the whole enemy base by himself (Rambo anyone?) and Flash's clip is just a world war documentary. You already know which movie can sell tickets. For me personally Flash is obviously a boring map-hack, macro whore cheater, someone needs to stop him now, it's very unlikely though . | ||
|
Kau
Canada3500 Posts
On November 22 2017 09:08 darktreb wrote: ... If hero had won these finals, it would singlehandedly have bumped his legacy up a notch (moreso than him winning an ASL against any other finals opponent). That's how significant Flash is, even to this day. Hell, Larva's legacy has been enhanced simply by doing decently in STREAMED games against Flash. ... I can attest to the truth of this statement because I became a fan of Juni because he happened to proxy hatch Flash on Andromeda after getting pretty much demolished by an early bunker. Unfortunately, Juni never really became any good. | ||
|
Aesthetician
20 Posts
| ||
|
Lebesgue
4542 Posts
The 3rd game was really amazing; as I was watching it I had hard believing that hero managed to win that game. But in the first two games hero had his butt handed to him... It seems that Flash is really the final boss of BW and he continues to play it is hard to see anyone else winning 5th ASL | ||
|
Jealous
10107 Posts
On November 25 2017 23:12 Aesthetician wrote: What's the point of training 8 hours a day to try to win a tournament when in the end you know you're going to lose to Flash? Because second place still has a pay-out and people who play well still get support in the form of fans and balloons. Because these people have been playing the game for years and want to improve, and improve their on-stage performance, and tournaments are a motivator and provider of both. Because even Flash loses games and is mortal. On November 25 2017 23:12 Aesthetician wrote: It's kind of the same reason I can't convince myself to ladder seriously, what's the point of trying to improve when every single person on the server has 250+apm, lags and doesn't speak English? This game doesn't seem to have much room for new blood anymore and it's very frustrating, and I believe the era of Flash is spelling the end of competitive BW. Not everyone plays BW to win every game they play. Some people play (and watch) BW because they love the game. If hero had given up before the finals because "fuck it, it's Flash," then we would never have seen a G3 or the tight moments that happened prior. Effort would have never pulled a reverse 3-0 comeback. Bisu would have never beaten Savior the bonjwa. So on and so forth. I completely sympathize with the desire to win, and the sadness that comes with being crushed and the desire to quit, but don't assume that everyone in the world only does things they know that they will win in. It feels like a common mindset that the millenial "participation trophy" generation is often accused of, and frankly I think it's toxic, counter-productive, and childish overall. | ||
|
Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On November 22 2017 14:11 Letmelose wrote: Not really. Brood War is more of a multi-faceted craft than chess. The fact that statically speaking Flash usally does not get punished for not quite matching the superlative micro-management abilities found in some of his peers does not mean that micro-management abilities become defunct after a certain point. Just like micro-management abilities were not irrelevant during iloveoov's era when he dominated the scene without having crisp micro-management due to his other extra-ordinary abilities. It speaks more about their other fantastic attributes, rather than micro-management abilities not being relevant at the professional level, which is quite frankly speaking a ludicrous thing to suggest. Statistically speaking, Tyson was incredibly successful at his craft despite his lack of reach compared to some of his peers, due to his outstanding qualities elsewhere. That does not mean reach becomes irrrelevant at the highest level. Excellence can be attained without a perfecting a certain attribute, but that doesn't negate that attribute as a quality worth having. Masking a certain attribute by having amazing capabilities elsewhere can be seen in every walk of life. That is not perfection, that is called playing to your strengths to the best of your abilities. People thought macro-management didn't matter all that much when BoxeR could simply micro-manage you to death. People thought build orders didn't matter all that much when NaDa could simply out muscle you from every mechanical perspective. People thought build orders were all that mattered when iloveoov swept the scene with his superior read on the meta-game. What? That's not right lol. People have always thought all aspects of SC are important throughout SCs history, least of all the players themselves. Oo had good micro when he focused on it, eg his marine split, Nada did well with build orders up until Savior era, and Boxer was no slouch in terms of macro either. All these top players are way more balanced than you give them credit for. In retrospect, none of them were perfect, and I have no problems with pointing out what I perceive to be potential weak points in Flash's overall skill-sets as a competitor, even though as of now, they don't seem to be all that relevant due to his overwhelming success. The problem is that what you think are weak points are actually conscious decisions to focus on one aspect of the game or another. When Flash explains his games on his stream, he will say xyz matters or not and devote an equivalent amount of attention. Flash is amazing because he rarely gives in to the temptation to overmicro his units to the detriment of multitask or base control, and never lets his multitask take him away from his overarching goal in a game. Maybe this is unlikeable to you because Flash plays to win, not entertain you, in which case too bad so sad... go watch some MOBAs instead. | ||
|
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
On December 04 2017 00:59 Shady Sands wrote: What? That's not right lol. People have always thought all aspects of SC are important throughout SCs history, least of all the players themselves. Oo had good micro when he focused on it, eg his marine split, Nada did well with build orders up until Savior era, and Boxer was no slouch in terms of macro either. All these top players are way more balanced than you give them credit for. The problem is that what you think are weak points are actually conscious decisions to focus on one aspect of the game or another. When Flash explains his games on his stream, he will say xyz matters or not and devote an equivalent amount of attention. Flash is amazing because he rarely gives in to the temptation to overmicro his units to the detriment of multitask or base control, and never lets his multitask take him away from his overarching goal in a game. Maybe this is unlikeable to you because Flash plays to win, not entertain you, in which case too bad so sad... go watch some MOBAs instead. seriously ? | ||
|
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
Seriously what? Please elaborate. This is one of the most civilized discussions I've seen in a while in ALL OF THE INTERNETS, so please, don't ruin it by dropping a sarcastic comment at whoever and starting a fight with them. I personally think that discussing whether FlaSh has good enough micro to appease the fans, who have had the opportunity to watch Leta, Hwasin, Fantasy etc, is pretty moot. He obviously has good micro. He probably can be outmicroed and has been, repeatedly, by various players. And appeal is something very personal. I find his defensive play really, really beautiful to watch. People describe it as stale and boring. Well, thank goodness there's more than one player to watch. And Flash DID NOT mop the floor with Hero at ASL4 finals (except game 1 - he instantly lost after trying 3h before pool); Hero played really, really well and put up quite a fight, won a game I thought lost and was no walkover. Please give him credit where credit is due. I really need a great protoss, though; there are several zerg players who can break the status quo. | ||
|
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 04 2017 00:59 Shady Sands wrote: What? That's not right lol. People have always thought all aspects of SC are important throughout SCs history, least of all the players themselves. Oo had good micro when he focused on it, eg his marine split, Nada did well with build orders up until Savior era, and Boxer was no slouch in terms of macro either. All these top players are way more balanced than you give them credit for. The problem is that what you think are weak points are actually conscious decisions to focus on one aspect of the game or another. When Flash explains his games on his stream, he will say xyz matters or not and devote an equivalent amount of attention. Flash is amazing because he rarely gives in to the temptation to overmicro his units to the detriment of multitask or base control, and never lets his multitask take him away from his overarching goal in a game. Maybe this is unlikeable to you because Flash plays to win, not entertain you, in which case too bad so sad... go watch some MOBAs instead. Though I fear this may be wasted on you, I'll attempt to answer sincerely. Flash makes a conscious decision to focus on things outside of micro-management outplays because he intends to focus on his strengths. The fact that Flash has found success focusing mainly on his numerous other assets as a player does not negate impeccable micro-management abilities as a useful trait to have. You can always get better, and the fact that you react to Flash not being treated as the end of the road for the evolution of Brood War as some kind of a blasphemy is rather precious. For example, towards the end of professional Brood War, FanTaSy had a better win rate in the terran-versus-protoss match-up than Flash did, winning more matches than Flash and having less number of defeats overall. FanTaSy made a conscious decision to focus more of his time on micro-managing his vultures because he was able to reap the benefits from paying extra attention to his vultures due to the high innate outplay potential from the unit itself. It does not mean every player out there should spend all their time micro-managing their vultures, but if you have the ability to wreck havoc beyond the point of no return, why not abuse it should the opportunity present itself? The fact that Flash did not need such moments to thwart his enemies is a statement on his other stellar qualities, but to pretend that FanTaSy was "wasting" his time making game winning micro-management maneuvers with his vultures when the opportunity presented itself, is quite clearly odd, especially since since FanTaSy had superior results to Flash in the terran-versus-protoss match-up since 2011. Every player has their strengths and weaknesses, and the level of success a certain player trait brings does not necessarily mean that particular trait is the correct way to approach the game. As for the traits of past legends, quite clearly, you are either are drawing conclusions from a couple of games that proves contrary to the overall theme of the majority of their games, or have extremely generous definitions for what constitutes weak points in a player. Either way, here's the thing with BoxeR that you have have overlooked. BoxeR consciously made a decision to neglect his macro-management by focusing hard on micro-management by using both his keyboards and his mouse to maximize his micro-management abilities. He used the arrow keys of his keyboard which allowed him to click with pinpoint accuracy, resulting in some of the finest micro-management outplays anybody had seen back in those days. That trait allowed BoxeR to become the greatest player in the world at the time, but no terran player has seen any success with that particular keyboard set-up since then. Have you actually seen Flash in situations where nothing but his micro-management abilities matter? Forget his hilariously mediocre displays of micro-management when playing UMS maps, what about extreme late-game terran-versus-terran situations where all the resources are mined out, and the game gets decided by one pivotal battle between the two players? Flash is decent, but nothing special at that particular aspect, and it is something he can polish up in order to raise his overall win rate, even if it is by the smallest of margins. Flash himself has admitted that his micro-management abilities are not that extra-ordinary, and quite clearly the discussion began with defining Flash's characteristics as a player, so why are you fixating on this need to represent Flash as a theoretically perfect terran player, where all his micro-management imperfections are somehow a deliberate decision on his part to further his win rate, when in reality it is just Flash playing to his strengths, and his other superlative strengths allowing to compensate for his micro-management abilities, which are quite clearly not godlike, even in situations where he has no option but to pay full attention to it. | ||
|
Miragee
8470 Posts
On December 04 2017 02:53 TaardadAiel wrote: Seriously what? Please elaborate. This is one of the most civilized discussions I've seen in a while in ALL OF THE INTERNETS, so please, don't ruin it by dropping a sarcastic comment at whoever and starting a fight with them. I personally think that discussing whether FlaSh has good enough micro to appease the fans, who have had the opportunity to watch Leta, Hwasin, Fantasy etc, is pretty moot. He obviously has good micro. He probably can be outmicroed and has been, repeatedly, by various players. And appeal is something very personal. I find his defensive play really, really beautiful to watch. People describe it as stale and boring. Well, thank goodness there's more than one player to watch. And Flash DID NOT mop the floor with Hero at ASL4 finals (except game 1 - he instantly lost after trying 3h before pool); Hero played really, really well and put up quite a fight, won a game I thought lost and was no walkover. Please give him credit where credit is due. I really need a great protoss, though; there are several zerg players who can break the status quo. A civilised discussion isn't worth much if one side seemingly can't comprehend the points made by the other. Almost everybody who has dropped into this and tried to argue against Letmelose accused him of under-appreciating Flash and only wanting to see some fancy micro. Which wasn't his point _at all_. Flash vs Hero was very one-sided. Even game 3 was one-sided until Hero "miraculously" managed to turn it around. | ||
|
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On December 04 2017 03:21 Miragee wrote: A civilised discussion isn't worth much if one side seemingly can't comprehend the points made by the other. Almost everybody who has dropped into this and tried to argue against Letmelose accused him of under-appreciating Flash and only wanting to see some fancy micro. Which wasn't his point _at all_. Flash vs Hero was very one-sided. Even game 3 was one-sided until Hero "miraculously" managed to turn it around. Well, probably I have just moved on the topic of what is more appealing to the audience. Letmelose got his message across, or at least I think he did. There is some lingering because it's hard to comprehend that these people have weaknesses. I don't want to scroll through the entire thread, but I don't think Letmelose said Flash had BAD micro, because that would trigger quite the outrage. it's just an aftereffect of daring to criticize the greatest. I suppose there is the Bisu fanbase, who would react accordingly if one of us said Bisu had poorer macro than Best. And I don't think the series was one-sided, to be honest. The main engagement at the ~11 o'clock in G2 was really, really narrow. Flash held on by a thread. And how could a game with a big turnaround be one-sided? Yeah, hero was pressured really hard and then just killed Flash with two drops in a quick succession. Game 4, yeah, maybe it was a bit one-sided by virtue of Flash being a damn master of movement and mindgames. One misread by Hero and the game was lost. I still don't think he "mopped the floor" with him. ASL3 Finals vs Shine was considerably more one-sided. | ||
|
StarscreamG1
Portugal1652 Posts
| ||
|
Holint_Casazr
Germany72 Posts
| ||
| ||
StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War Calm Dota 2 10759Rain  7426firebathero  4959Sea 3212Flash 2191Horang2 1681Hyuk 1085Pusan 1032Last 368Mini 305[ Show more ] Counter-Strike Super Smash Bros Heroes of the Storm Other Games singsing2964 B2W.Neo1421 DeMusliM565 crisheroes449 Happy438 Lowko394 SortOf132 PartinGtheBigBoy88 KnowMe65 ArmadaUGS39 ZerO(Twitch)15 Organizations Counter-Strike Other Games StarCraft 2 Other Games StarCraft: Brood War StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War |
|
WardiTV Invitational
Chat StarLeague
PassionCraft
Circuito Brasileiro de…
Online Event
MaxPax vs herO
SHIN vs Cure
Clem vs MaxPax
ShoWTimE vs herO
ShoWTimE vs Clem
Sparkling Tuna Cup
WardiTV Invitational
AllThingsProtoss
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
Chat StarLeague
[ Show More ] |
|
|
EPT
Afreeca Starleague Season 4![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/424.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/82.jpg)
