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United States10550 Posts
On May 28 2017 21:22 tanngard wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2017 21:13 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 28 2017 21:11 tanngard wrote:On May 28 2017 21:03 Terrorbladder wrote:On May 28 2017 21:00 tanngard wrote:On May 28 2017 20:57 Ramiz1989 wrote:On May 28 2017 20:56 d(O.o)a wrote:
That would've been so much scarier if soulkey had morphed them all on the space ground where rines couldn't hit them. To be honest I still don't understand how pros make little mistakes like these that constantly cost them the game. I know! I dont understand why zergs does that. It happens often. ever heard of pressure humans aren't robots you know But i dont understand why they morph them in shooting distance of marines. Do you? I have a lot of respect for pressure and the players, but this one seems so easy. You just move them a little to the left to safety. When this stuff keeps happening you would imagine these great players making mental notes to remember and not let pressure get to them. Its not like forgetting an upgrade or something, because that is a mistake you are not expecting to make. This one is. because under pressure, you forget things. have you ever forgotten things while trying to rush to work or going somewhere? this game is so intense, you will make small mistakes. it cost him. And that is why i say its ok to forget stuff like you upgrades and shit when under pressure. But this is so fucking obvious and integral to your entire gameplan. AND its a mistake they keep on repeating. If you kept on forgetting to plant your third base after sending a drone to the third base location. You would expect that thats a mistake you would not keep happening right? All you have to do is make a mental note that every time i'm going to morph guardians, i morph them in a spot were they are not going to be hit my marines, especially when that spot is easy to reach. You dont make mental notes about all the other thousands things that can go wrong, because you have to trust you brain to remeber that. But those guardians are the most important thing in his strategy.
upgrades are also integral to your game plan. stork once forgot goon range in a pvp. terrans forget marine range. bro, it happens. Killer vs Mind forgot crack ling upgrades in late game. Ive forgotten siege mode a few times.
I've run out of the house without my wallet, phone, keys, etc. I've gotten into my car before without keys because i was under pressure and in a huge rush. those are pretty obivious and integral to daily life. it will happen. and as often as that happens we, humans, will still mess up. we'll still forget things in moments of time and need because our brain is already going in over drive, its too much for it to handle. Look up Apollo Robbins and his videos about pickpocketing and the human mind, very powerful stuff. these guys have so much in their heads, macroing, microing, rehotkeying their army, mutalisk control. 400 apm = 6.5 actions PER SECOND. that is insane to keep up with. these players are pushing the limit of human mentality and what you can do with your brain.
When you're trying to hit timings that are so thin you couldnt slide a paper through it, when you're in that crunch time to get those guardians out ASAP, you will mess up. Soulkey messed up and he paid for it.
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On May 28 2017 21:22 tanngard wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2017 21:13 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 28 2017 21:11 tanngard wrote:On May 28 2017 21:03 Terrorbladder wrote:On May 28 2017 21:00 tanngard wrote:On May 28 2017 20:57 Ramiz1989 wrote:On May 28 2017 20:56 d(O.o)a wrote:
That would've been so much scarier if soulkey had morphed them all on the space ground where rines couldn't hit them. To be honest I still don't understand how pros make little mistakes like these that constantly cost them the game. I know! I dont understand why zergs does that. It happens often. ever heard of pressure humans aren't robots you know But i dont understand why they morph them in shooting distance of marines. Do you? I have a lot of respect for pressure and the players, but this one seems so easy. You just move them a little to the left to safety. When this stuff keeps happening you would imagine these great players making mental notes to remember and not let pressure get to them. Its not like forgetting an upgrade or something, because that is a mistake you are not expecting to make. This one is. because under pressure, you forget things. have you ever forgotten things while trying to rush to work or going somewhere? this game is so intense, you will make small mistakes. it cost him. And that is why i say its ok to forget stuff like you upgrades and shit when under pressure. But this is so fucking obvious and integral to your entire gameplan. AND its a mistake they keep on repeating. If you kept on forgetting to plant your third base after sending a drone to the third base location. You would expect that thats a mistake you would not keep happening right? All you have to do is make a mental note that every time i'm going to morph guardians, i morph them in a spot were they are not going to be hit by marines, especially when that spot is easy to reach. You dont make mental notes about all the other thousands things that can go wrong, because you have to trust you brain to remeber that. But those guardians are the most important thing in his strategy.
Could it have been a calculated risk that Soulkey took, to not wait for the mutas and morph them, so he could micro elsewhere?
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I recommend watching more pro FPVODs/streams. For every "mistake" caught on camera, they had to do 10 things right. Their actions are way faster than I can see.
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On May 28 2017 21:28 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2017 21:22 tanngard wrote:On May 28 2017 21:13 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 28 2017 21:11 tanngard wrote:On May 28 2017 21:03 Terrorbladder wrote:On May 28 2017 21:00 tanngard wrote:On May 28 2017 20:57 Ramiz1989 wrote:On May 28 2017 20:56 d(O.o)a wrote:
That would've been so much scarier if soulkey had morphed them all on the space ground where rines couldn't hit them. To be honest I still don't understand how pros make little mistakes like these that constantly cost them the game. I know! I dont understand why zergs does that. It happens often. ever heard of pressure humans aren't robots you know But i dont understand why they morph them in shooting distance of marines. Do you? I have a lot of respect for pressure and the players, but this one seems so easy. You just move them a little to the left to safety. When this stuff keeps happening you would imagine these great players making mental notes to remember and not let pressure get to them. Its not like forgetting an upgrade or something, because that is a mistake you are not expecting to make. This one is. because under pressure, you forget things. have you ever forgotten things while trying to rush to work or going somewhere? this game is so intense, you will make small mistakes. it cost him. And that is why i say its ok to forget stuff like you upgrades and shit when under pressure. But this is so fucking obvious and integral to your entire gameplan. AND its a mistake they keep on repeating. If you kept on forgetting to plant your third base after sending a drone to the third base location. You would expect that thats a mistake you would not keep happening right? All you have to do is make a mental note that every time i'm going to morph guardians, i morph them in a spot were they are not going to be hit my marines, especially when that spot is easy to reach. You dont make mental notes about all the other thousands things that can go wrong, because you have to trust you brain to remeber that. But those guardians are the most important thing in his strategy. upgrades are also integral to your game plan. stork once forgot goon range in a pvp. terrans forget marine range. bro, it happens. Killer vs Mind forgot crack ling upgrades in late game. Ive forgotten siege mode a few times. I've run out of the house without my wallet, phone, keys, etc. I've gotten into my car before without keys because i was under pressure and in a huge rush. those are pretty obivious and integral to daily life. it will happen. and as often as that happens we, humans, will still mess up. we'll still forget things in moments of time and need because our brain is already going in over drive, its too much for it to handle. Look up Apollo Robbins and his videos about pickpocketing and the human mind, very powerful stuff. these guys have so much in their heads, macroing, microing, rehotkeying their army, mutalisk control. 400 apm = 6.5 actions PER SECOND. that is insane to keep up with. these players are pushing the limit of human mentality and what you can do with your brain. When you're trying to hit timings that are so thin you couldnt slide a paper through it, when you're in that crunch time to get those guardians out ASAP, you will mess up. Soulkey messed up and he paid for it.
If you are forgetting the upgrades because you have multiple tasks going on INSIDE your brain at once, i can forgive you forgetting about it. Even if they are really important. But if you have already clicked on the armory and you are looking at the weapon upgrade and you STILL forget about it - can you really be excused? And that is basically what it looks like is happening with those guardians.
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On May 28 2017 21:30 flashimba wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2017 21:22 tanngard wrote:On May 28 2017 21:13 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 28 2017 21:11 tanngard wrote:On May 28 2017 21:03 Terrorbladder wrote:On May 28 2017 21:00 tanngard wrote:On May 28 2017 20:57 Ramiz1989 wrote:On May 28 2017 20:56 d(O.o)a wrote:
That would've been so much scarier if soulkey had morphed them all on the space ground where rines couldn't hit them. To be honest I still don't understand how pros make little mistakes like these that constantly cost them the game. I know! I dont understand why zergs does that. It happens often. ever heard of pressure humans aren't robots you know But i dont understand why they morph them in shooting distance of marines. Do you? I have a lot of respect for pressure and the players, but this one seems so easy. You just move them a little to the left to safety. When this stuff keeps happening you would imagine these great players making mental notes to remember and not let pressure get to them. Its not like forgetting an upgrade or something, because that is a mistake you are not expecting to make. This one is. because under pressure, you forget things. have you ever forgotten things while trying to rush to work or going somewhere? this game is so intense, you will make small mistakes. it cost him. And that is why i say its ok to forget stuff like you upgrades and shit when under pressure. But this is so fucking obvious and integral to your entire gameplan. AND its a mistake they keep on repeating. If you kept on forgetting to plant your third base after sending a drone to the third base location. You would expect that thats a mistake you would not keep happening right? All you have to do is make a mental note that every time i'm going to morph guardians, i morph them in a spot were they are not going to be hit by marines, especially when that spot is easy to reach. You dont make mental notes about all the other thousands things that can go wrong, because you have to trust you brain to remeber that. But those guardians are the most important thing in his strategy. Could it have been a calculated risk that Soulkey took, to not wait for the mutas and morph them, so he could micro elsewhere?
Thank you. This is a possibility i was looking for. But could any top zerg players confirm it?
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On May 28 2017 21:37 tanngard wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2017 21:30 flashimba wrote:On May 28 2017 21:22 tanngard wrote:On May 28 2017 21:13 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 28 2017 21:11 tanngard wrote:On May 28 2017 21:03 Terrorbladder wrote:On May 28 2017 21:00 tanngard wrote:On May 28 2017 20:57 Ramiz1989 wrote:On May 28 2017 20:56 d(O.o)a wrote:
That would've been so much scarier if soulkey had morphed them all on the space ground where rines couldn't hit them. To be honest I still don't understand how pros make little mistakes like these that constantly cost them the game. I know! I dont understand why zergs does that. It happens often. ever heard of pressure humans aren't robots you know But i dont understand why they morph them in shooting distance of marines. Do you? I have a lot of respect for pressure and the players, but this one seems so easy. You just move them a little to the left to safety. When this stuff keeps happening you would imagine these great players making mental notes to remember and not let pressure get to them. Its not like forgetting an upgrade or something, because that is a mistake you are not expecting to make. This one is. because under pressure, you forget things. have you ever forgotten things while trying to rush to work or going somewhere? this game is so intense, you will make small mistakes. it cost him. And that is why i say its ok to forget stuff like you upgrades and shit when under pressure. But this is so fucking obvious and integral to your entire gameplan. AND its a mistake they keep on repeating. If you kept on forgetting to plant your third base after sending a drone to the third base location. You would expect that thats a mistake you would not keep happening right? All you have to do is make a mental note that every time i'm going to morph guardians, i morph them in a spot were they are not going to be hit by marines, especially when that spot is easy to reach. You dont make mental notes about all the other thousands things that can go wrong, because you have to trust you brain to remeber that. But those guardians are the most important thing in his strategy. Could it have been a calculated risk that Soulkey took, to not wait for the mutas and morph them, so he could micro elsewhere? Thank you. This is a possibility i was looking for. But could any top zerg players confirm it?
There's not much to it really, it's just a mistake by Soulkey and it normally wouldn't be an issue against other Terrans but Flash is Flash.
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On May 28 2017 21:36 Terrorbladder wrote:
I recommend watching more pro FPVODs/streams. For every "mistake" caught on camera, they had to do 10 things right. Their actions are way faster than I can see.
On May 28 2017 21:09 Highgamer wrote:
For every mistake you see you see them solve 10 situations marvelously, you just don't think of them then.
nice plagiarism bro xD...
I mean, we had the same thought obviously...
Still some people will keep on thinking a korean becomes a robot when becoming a progamer...
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On May 28 2017 21:47 Highgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2017 21:36 Terrorbladder wrote:
I recommend watching more pro FPVODs/streams. For every "mistake" caught on camera, they had to do 10 things right. Their actions are way faster than I can see. Show nested quote +On May 28 2017 21:09 Highgamer wrote:
For every mistake you see you see them solve 10 situations marvelously, you just don't think of them then. nice plagiarism bro xD... I mean, we had the same thought obviously... Still some people will keep on thinking a korean becomes a robot when becoming a progamer... 10 is a very special number...
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On May 28 2017 21:22 tanngard wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2017 21:13 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 28 2017 21:11 tanngard wrote:On May 28 2017 21:03 Terrorbladder wrote:On May 28 2017 21:00 tanngard wrote:On May 28 2017 20:57 Ramiz1989 wrote:On May 28 2017 20:56 d(O.o)a wrote:
That would've been so much scarier if soulkey had morphed them all on the space ground where rines couldn't hit them. To be honest I still don't understand how pros make little mistakes like these that constantly cost them the game. I know! I dont understand why zergs does that. It happens often. ever heard of pressure humans aren't robots you know But i dont understand why they morph them in shooting distance of marines. Do you? I have a lot of respect for pressure and the players, but this one seems so easy. You just move them a little to the left to safety. When this stuff keeps happening you would imagine these great players making mental notes to remember and not let pressure get to them. Its not like forgetting an upgrade or something, because that is a mistake you are not expecting to make. This one is. because under pressure, you forget things. have you ever forgotten things while trying to rush to work or going somewhere? this game is so intense, you will make small mistakes. it cost him. And that is why i say its ok to forget stuff like you upgrades and shit when under pressure. But this is so fucking obvious and integral to your entire gameplan. AND its a mistake they keep on repeating. If you kept on forgetting to plant your third base after sending a drone to the third base location. You would expect that thats a mistake you would not keep happening right? All you have to do is make a mental note that every time i'm going to morph guardians, i morph them in a spot were they are not going to be hit by marines, especially when that spot is easy to reach. You dont make mental notes about all the other thousands things that can go wrong, because you have to trust you brain to remeber that. But those guardians are the most important thing in his strategy.
I think it's a little more complicated than that. Soulkey was far behind from his failed early lings. Gaurdian midgames are touch to pull off as is. It could be Soulkey felt he was all in or close to it and wanted these gaurdians in the fight as soon as possible, not hitting the gas from the side. Further, any damage the cocoon takes while morphing is meaningless when the morph finishes, so marine shots on the cocoons are wasted if they don't finish the kill in time. Marines also have to run into range to get those shots and so run into the stream of zerglings. The morphing gaurdians act as a sort of gamble then.
Morphing gaurdians over the bridges can be nice if it forces marines to get stuck on the choke and glitch out. Morphing them farther back can be nice if it forces marines past the bridges and allows for a surround or run by. All this requires you have a strong sense of exactly where the fight will happen and on what scale.
Overall, there were certainly mistakes, but I think it's harder than simply saying "oh morph em over space 100% of the time."
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On May 28 2017 22:00 phyren wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2017 21:22 tanngard wrote:On May 28 2017 21:13 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 28 2017 21:11 tanngard wrote:On May 28 2017 21:03 Terrorbladder wrote:On May 28 2017 21:00 tanngard wrote:On May 28 2017 20:57 Ramiz1989 wrote:On May 28 2017 20:56 d(O.o)a wrote:
That would've been so much scarier if soulkey had morphed them all on the space ground where rines couldn't hit them. To be honest I still don't understand how pros make little mistakes like these that constantly cost them the game. I know! I dont understand why zergs does that. It happens often. ever heard of pressure humans aren't robots you know But i dont understand why they morph them in shooting distance of marines. Do you? I have a lot of respect for pressure and the players, but this one seems so easy. You just move them a little to the left to safety. When this stuff keeps happening you would imagine these great players making mental notes to remember and not let pressure get to them. Its not like forgetting an upgrade or something, because that is a mistake you are not expecting to make. This one is. because under pressure, you forget things. have you ever forgotten things while trying to rush to work or going somewhere? this game is so intense, you will make small mistakes. it cost him. And that is why i say its ok to forget stuff like you upgrades and shit when under pressure. But this is so fucking obvious and integral to your entire gameplan. AND its a mistake they keep on repeating. If you kept on forgetting to plant your third base after sending a drone to the third base location. You would expect that thats a mistake you would not keep happening right? All you have to do is make a mental note that every time i'm going to morph guardians, i morph them in a spot were they are not going to be hit by marines, especially when that spot is easy to reach. You dont make mental notes about all the other thousands things that can go wrong, because you have to trust you brain to remeber that. But those guardians are the most important thing in his strategy. I think it's a little more complicated than that. Soulkey was far behind from his failed early lings. Gaurdian midgames are touch to pull off as is. It could be Soulkey felt he was all in or close to it and wanted these gaurdians in the fight as soon as possible, not hitting the gas from the side. Further, any damage the cocoon takes while morphing is meaningless when the morph finishes, so marine shots on the cocoons are wasted if they don't finish the kill in time. Marines also have to run into range to get those shots and so run into the stream of zerglings. The morphing gaurdians act as a sort of gamble then. Morphing gaurdians over the bridges can be nice if it forces marines to get stuck on the choke and glitch out. Morphing them farther back can be nice if it forces marines past the bridges and allows for a surround or run by. All this requires you have a strong sense of exactly where the fight will happen and on what scale. Overall, there were certainly mistakes, but I think it's harder than simply saying "oh morph em over space 100% of the time."
Thank you for the interesting post. I agree, it does seem like a gamble and not a simple mistake. Now my mind is at peace.
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400 apm = 6.5 actions PER SECOND. that is insane to keep up with
yeah but no, alot of THOSE APM IS MINDLESS CLICKING, i expected you to atleast LOOK AT EAPM IN THIS MATTER
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On May 28 2017 21:47 Highgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2017 21:36 Terrorbladder wrote:
I recommend watching more pro FPVODs/streams. For every "mistake" caught on camera, they had to do 10 things right. Their actions are way faster than I can see. Show nested quote +On May 28 2017 21:09 Highgamer wrote:
For every mistake you see you see them solve 10 situations marvelously, you just don't think of them then. nice plagiarism bro xD... I mean, we had the same thought obviously... Still some people will keep on thinking a korean becomes a robot when becoming a progamer...
If you are referring to me as one of those people you would be definitively off point. I usually always defend progamers from those kinds of demands. But in this case this seemed like too much of an obvious mistake to make. And that is probably, with the help from the posts from phyren and flashimba, i now see that it was not an as obvious mistake, but more of an real time calculated risk. It might have been the wrong risk to take (i dont know), but it was not as simple as just forgetting to put the guardians in a safe position which it looked liked to me initially and which caused my troubled state of mind.
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On May 28 2017 21:06 VioleTAK wrote:
That's not true, today's level is definitely higher.
Is it really?
I feel like the insane amount of hours spent in the team houses made the players shaper in a lot of things.
Now I don't follow the scene that closely, I watch every single ASL match but quite little outside of that. Some SSL and some fpvods but not that much.
So, I am not saying that my view is correct or anything, please, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
But to me, games today feel a bit more chaotic than they used to during the prime kespa-era.
Players don't feel quite as sharp in their build and not quite up to par with their multitasking at times.
But the meta has shifted as well so it is hard to make a 1:1 comparison.
I see a more diverse range of tactics played out, and not only Shines bag of builds, but overall the strategies doesn't feel as static as they did during the end of the kespa era.
Are players not quite as sharp so that broadens the meta a bit or has the meta broadened so that it is harder to stay as sharp?
Or am I just way off base because I haven't watched enough games
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On May 28 2017 22:14 Barneyk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2017 21:06 VioleTAK wrote:
That's not true, today's level is definitely higher. Is it really? I feel like the insane amount of hours spent in the team houses made the players shaper in a lot of things. Now I don't follow the scene that closely, I watch every single ASL match but quite little outside of that. Some SSL and some fpvods but not that much. So, I am not saying that my view is correct or anything, please, feel free to correct me if I am wrong. But to me, games today feel a bit more chaotic than they used to during the prime kespa-era. Players don't feel quite as sharp in their build and not quite up to par with their multitasking at times. But the meta has shifted as well so it is hard to make a 1:1 comparison. I see a more diverse range of tactics played out, and not only Shines bag of builds, but overall the strategies doesn't feel as static as they did during the end of the kespa era. Are players not quite as sharp so that broadens the meta a bit or has the meta broadened so that it is harder to stay as sharp? Or am I just way off base because I haven't watched enough games
According to what Zero said, the players are less sharp because of less practice. On the other hand Hero has stated that he has gained a deeper and holistic understanding of the game.
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On May 28 2017 22:14 Barneyk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2017 21:06 VioleTAK wrote:
That's not true, today's level is definitely higher. Is it really? I feel like the insane amount of hours spent in the team houses made the players shaper in a lot of things. Now I don't follow the scene that closely, I watch every single ASL match but quite little outside of that. Some SSL and some fpvods but not that much. So, I am not saying that my view is correct or anything, please, feel free to correct me if I am wrong. But to me, games today feel a bit more chaotic than they used to during the prime kespa-era. Players don't feel quite as sharp in their build and not quite up to par with their multitasking at times. But the meta has shifted as well so it is hard to make a 1:1 comparison. I see a more diverse range of tactics played out, and not only Shines bag of builds, but overall the strategies doesn't feel as static as they did during the end of the kespa era. Are players not quite as sharp so that broadens the meta a bit or has the meta broadened so that it is harder to stay as sharp? Or am I just way off base because I haven't watched enough games
Strategically the players might be better now but mechanically they were way better during the Kespa era. Nowadays they practice according to their own free time compared to 8-10 hours a day when they were in pro-gaming houses. Even Flash said in an interview somewhere he is more developed strategically but mechanically he was no where near compared to is Kespa days.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On May 28 2017 21:07 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2017 21:03 lolfail9001 wrote:On May 28 2017 20:58 d(O.o)a wrote:On May 28 2017 20:58 nojok wrote:On May 28 2017 20:56 sAw wrote:
This is painful to watch BW is reviving but the current top level would not even qualify for the starleagues of the peak period. uwotm8 lmfao This is almost as stupid as the people that say the 2009-2011 foreign pros couldn't compete nowadays. He is not particularly wrong. Consider that observer of that series is the one who is going to play Flash next week. How is that relevant in any way? Does observing promatches somehow make him less qualified to play in them? Shine was a pro in that era too btw and he plays FAR better than he did back then. I'm sure Jaedong was observing that match from home, does that make him less of a competitor?
Observing promatches for his daytime job is the simple statement of fact: present BW top tier does not even practice that much. They are sure as hell better strategists now (i mean come on, you did not see defensive matrix on shuttles that often in Kespa days), but mechanics wise it is a different story.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On May 28 2017 22:58 goody153 wrote:
recommended games guys ?
Game 2 and game 3 imho (spoiler: game 2 is only worth it for facecam so if you find a gif, game 3 only). Maybe game 4 if seeing terran get btfod out of the game with 20 ultras is your thing.
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in comparison to dropping that game on outsider with 5 operating bases, where the only thing soulkey needed to do was to stop the 1st wave of dropships and he failed amazingly, the mistakes game 1 and 5 on breaker were not even noticeable. However, nothing in this series could even remotely compare to bisu's C- performance yesterday. All of them make lousy mistakes, maybe flash doesnt but all others
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On May 28 2017 23:04 lolfail9001 wrote:Game 2 and game 3 imho (spoiler: game 2 is only worth it for facecam so if you find a gif, game 3 only). Maybe game 4 if seeing terran get btfod out of the game with 20 ultras is your thing.
so game 3 and game 4
thanks
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EPT
