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On April 21 2017 23:04 trutaCz wrote:
Yes Scan lost to me in week 1.
Yes the games were played in a huge lag
Yes my score against Scan in non tournament games is about 10-421
Yes my score against Scan in tournament games goes like 2-222
They consider me one of the best foreigner players in past few years.
My statement about it is very similiar to yours. For me there is no point to play a tournament which i can't win.
no offense trutacz, but consider this: if everybody thinks this way and even if scan is excluded, a lot of foreigners don't need to play tours anymore, yes? Mid and low level players play this tour too, simply for fun.
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Russian Federation370 Posts
There are 2 motivation factors to play this tourney:
1. Prizes
2. Competition
And both are broken for foreigners since we have a huge difference between korean and foreigner esports level. And this is not a problem of us, or problem of Scan or korean esports at all. Its just a fact. We need to draw a line or do something else to merge 2 communities and skills.
Since that, you need to define a puprose of this tournament (at least for yourself) and follow it.
For example, u can promote tourney in korean scene too. It would be nice to see other progamers in this tourney too.
That would be real competition. I bet we all will switch from players to observers immediatley or may be not. Who knows.
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On April 21 2017 23:50 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2017 23:04 trutaCz wrote:
Yes Scan lost to me in week 1.
Yes the games were played in a huge lag
Yes my score against Scan in non tournament games is about 10-421
Yes my score against Scan in tournament games goes like 2-222
They consider me one of the best foreigner players in past few years.
My statement about it is very similiar to yours. For me there is no point to play a tournament which i can't win. no offense trutacz, but consider this: if everybody thinks this way and even if scan is excluded, a lot of foreigners don't need to play tours anymore, yes? Mid and low level players play this tour too, simply for fun.
I talked about myself, not about the foreign community. Every player can do whatever he wants, participate or not. And i have no idea why people think that it's about Scan. It's about the gap between korean and foreigner players/community.
If you want to put hours of practice just to be smashed by koreans players it's up to you. If you enjoy being smashed by korean players it's also up to you. Have fun
If for some reasons u dont have players in tournament, just go ahead on korean sites and promote tournament there, there is a lot of C +++ fish rank players, for sure some of them would be interested to compete.
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Make a decision based on what the goal of the tournament is.
1. Stimulate the foreigner scene?
Then make it a foreigner only tournament.
2. Have the best players compete?
Advertise it to both foreigners and Koreans but this will inexorably lead to a Korean only event (with maybe a couple of relentless, naive foreigners competing for fun).
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Germany3128 Posts
On April 22 2017 00:36 B-royal wrote:
Make a decision based on what the goal of the tournament is.
1. Stimulate the foreigner scene?
Then make it a foreigner only tournament.
2. Have the best players compete?
Advertise it to both foreigners and Koreans but this will inexorably lead to a Korean only event (with maybe a couple of relentless, naive foreigners competing for fun).
Why will #2 lead to only Koreans competing? They can compete now and yet they don't even if it's 'easy cash'
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On April 22 2017 00:55 TheNewEra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2017 00:36 B-royal wrote:
Make a decision based on what the goal of the tournament is.
1. Stimulate the foreigner scene?
Then make it a foreigner only tournament.
2. Have the best players compete?
Advertise it to both foreigners and Koreans but this will inexorably lead to a Korean only event (with maybe a couple of relentless, naive foreigners competing for fun). Why will #2 lead to only Koreans competing? They can compete now and yet they don't even if it's 'easy cash'
They probably don't know about it at all. Besides for any decent Korean player it's like to be an NBA player and participate in wheelchair basketball, but without wheelchair.
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Coming from the SC2 scene.. this attitude just *blows my mind*.
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But what's wrong with our attitude? And i guess SC2 is still professional, am i right?
I've been playing both SC2 and BW. The gap between koreans and foreigner in BW is 32816x more than in SC2.
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I don't understand Trutacz's argument... He plays a massive amount of games on fish vs highly skilled koreans, yet refuses to play against them in a tournament? I guess the practice games @ Fish Ladder is simply to be able to beat foreigners.
I agree that it should be a foreigner only tourney. But if you already compete in ladder games against top Korean players.....
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On April 22 2017 01:26 FilthyRake wrote:
Coming from the SC2 scene.. this attitude just *blows my mind*.
do you host sc2 tourneys for foreigners,i thought this new tournament series was to support foreign bw,do u host tournament in a friendly time for us,if u check TLC cup threads u will see koreans are banned,simple cuz the gap lvl is huge,if you look TSL TSL2 koreans are banned.Do you have scan that awakes 4 am to play foreign friendly time tourney,if this tourney is global,i recommend make it korean friendly time im sure lot of korean semipros will gladly play it,and im sure we will obs alot of amazing games,i will gladly watch it,to be honest watching Scan scores so far im a bit confused,not long ago Scan was training for ASL he was winning top progamers in a daily basis,now he is playing here and dropping games vs foreigners ,even loss a bo3 vs trutacz.and i actually played 2 macro games with him,it was never the case before the tours,just check the bo9 showmatch eonzerg vs scan,there is a big problem Sonstar aswell,the guy lag like sh*t,and u guys are not doing anything about it.We cant compete with koreans.we cant play 12 -14 hours non stop everyday in BW.this is like me asking to be allowed to play in C- iccup leagues.
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On April 22 2017 01:26 FilthyRake wrote:
Coming from the SC2 scene.. this attitude just *blows my mind*.
Because of the fact that SC2 isn't that demanding on the mechanical part of the game, you will not have the discrepancies between Koreans and Foreigners like in BW. You can take a look on the Liquipedia pages of past WCG tournaments. From like 100 games, you will find 5 or maybe even 10 games that went in favor of foreigners at those events. And I can remember them very vividly. Like for example that epic ZvZ from Mondragon vs saviOr. And why can I remember it so vividly? Because it was such an exception that a foreigner beat a korean player. It was like an one in a hundred games that they could beat them.
And nowadays it is even more off than it was previously. Our best players can maybe reach C on FISH. That is not even close to the best korean players and even if they reach C, it mostly is by mass-gaming. Reaching a rank in BW by massgaming is literally like in early WoL where you'll get to GM by a 4-Gate. It is still impressive, but is not comparable to """"real"""" C rank koreans (not to take anything away from foreigners on FISH C rank, I really have the utmost respect for that).
What I try to communicate to you by those examples is that you simply CANNOT compare the SC2 scene to the BW scene. You had foreigners competing in the highest levels of korean SC2 from the get-go and still there is a huge gap in SC2 (see Scarlett in GSL) and you still have to take this gap and multiply it by 1000 to get to the level of discrepancy in BW.
If you want to continue to let korean players in, then try to contact Scan or someone who speaks korean and knows the korean BW scene. Ask him to post on the korean naver forums or something promoting your tournament. I am sure there will be 100 koreans signing up for it. Koreans mostly no one ever heard of, but still player in the C and B range (and hence much better than all the players in the previous iterations of the FilthyCup). Your tournament will produce high class games and you can have them casted by Schamtoo. But if you don't want mostly koreans in this tournament, you HAVE to disallow koreans. Scan will win against the top tier foreigners 80-85 times out of 100 games. It is simply too huge of a discrepancy.
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On April 22 2017 01:46 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2017 01:26 FilthyRake wrote:
Coming from the SC2 scene.. this attitude just *blows my mind*. do you host sc2 tourneys for foreigners,i thought this new tournament series was to support foreign bw,do u host tournament in a friendly time for us,if u check TLC cup threads u will see koreans are banned,simple cuz the gap lvl is huge,if you look TSL TSL2 koreans are banned.Do you have scan that awakes 4 am to play foreign friendly time tourney,if this tourney is global,i recommend make it korean friendly time im sure lot of korean semipros will gladly play it,and im sure we will obs alot of amazing games,i will gladly watch it,to be honest watching Scan scores so far im a bit confused,not long ago Scan was training for ASL he was winning top progamers in a daily basis,now he is playing here and dropping games vs foreigners ,even loss a bo3 vs trutacz.and i actually played 2 macro games with him,it was never the case before the tours,just check the bo9 showmatch eonzerg vs scan,there is a big problem Sonstar aswell,the guy lag like sh*t,and u guys are not doing anything about it.We cant compete with koreans.we cant play 12 -14 hours non stop everyday in BW.this is like me asking to be allowed to play in C- iccup leagues.
where is the difference of time you can put in? Scan is no progamer who get's paid for playing and he doesn't get $$$ from streaming on afreeca? He is studying and can sacrifice enough time? Lucky for him i think, but nothing unfair in the grand scheme of things in that.
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On April 22 2017 01:38 EndingLife wrote:
I don't understand Trutacz's argument... He plays a massive amount of games on fish vs highly skilled koreans, yet refuses to play against them in a tournament? I guess the practice games @ Fish Ladder is simply to be able to beat foreigners.
I agree that it should be a foreigner only tourney. But if you already compete in ladder games against top Korean players.....
Maybe i'm just bad? I'm sorry that i can't compete with korean top players.
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Germany3128 Posts
On April 22 2017 01:55 trutaCz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2017 01:38 EndingLife wrote:
I don't understand Trutacz's argument... He plays a massive amount of games on fish vs highly skilled koreans, yet refuses to play against them in a tournament? I guess the practice games @ Fish Ladder is simply to be able to beat foreigners.
I agree that it should be a foreigner only tourney. But if you already compete in ladder games against top Korean players.....
Maybe i'm just bad? I'm sorry that i can't compete with korean top players.
So even though you are practicing against Koreans you now boycott one of the few tournaments the scene has because you don't want to play against Koreans in a tournament for which no Korean has registered so far?
Edit: I can't imagine this is the reason for 35 out of 40 people to abstain a tournament or is this a action by the whole foreign semi-pro community?
I just don't see the benefit for the foreign 'pros' to rather let a tournament series die, than competing against (2) Koreans whom they train against anyways...
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How exactly do you want us to compete with Koreans, when we have infinitely lower knowledge of the game, we've never been trained by real coaches, there isn't anyone above us who could tell us of a way to improve? WE ARE ON OUR OWN. Koreans, through years of their history, have opened a gap too big for us to be able to compete with them.
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We're all playing the same game in the end...
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be happy that there is an tournament with a nice price pool and get some balls and play, these foreigners nowadays. Mondragon, Draco, Nony and Sen would be disappointed of u. Who cares if u lose to koreans just show the fans some good games.
edit: u play in most of the evenings in ladder anyway, so just fking play for entertainment
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This is insane to me. You don't have to play in a tournament, but I guess at this point everyone needs to decide what their goals are.
However the people in this thread yelling at a TO who's putting their own $$$ on the line to GIVE TO WHOEVER WINS... how entitled can you be? "You need to give me your money, not these people." Da hell?
I'm making a video about this tonight, since I help run this tournament and Have At You! I'll explain my stance on this, and I think filthy and i agree here.
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Bunch of entitled children up in here need to git gud.
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EPT
