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On April 22 2017 04:04 SchAmToo wrote:
This is insane to me. You don't have to play in a tournament, but I guess at this point everyone needs to decide what their goals are.
However the people in this thread yelling at a TO who's putting their own $$$ on the line to GIVE TO WHOEVER WINS... how entitled can you be? "You need to give me your money, not these people." Da hell?
I'm making a video about this tonight, since I help run this tournament and Have At You! I'll explain my stance on this, and I think filthy and i agree here.
Well but as a TO you have to decide whether you want to have a solid foreigner player base or a korean player base, at least in Broodwar. You simply cannot have a mixed tournament, because it is just not appealing to play in a tournament where you know Scan will win it anyways. Don't get me wrong. I like Scan and I sincerly hope he qualifies for one of the upcoming ASLs in the future, but there is just no grey in the black or white decission. Yes it is up to the tournament organizer if he wants to allow or disallow people from his or her tournament, but then at least if you decide to host it up for koreans as well, then be sure to have a lot of koreans in it. No one will complain, if this tournament is filled with "casual" korean C players, but then try to announce it to the korean society somehow. As of right now, you are kind of like this example: Adult professionally trained soccer/football team playing in a youth amateur league. There is no comparison and is just kind of boring. Yes you can say from an organizer or caster point of view "just train more LOL, stop crying and get gud", but it is not that easy. Try to get to B ranks on ICCup first before you tell anyone to "get good". Even getting to a point to be a top tier foreigner is incredibly hard and you guys try to say get on a level of korean professionals (Scan beating top tier korean pros on stream and trying to qualify for ASL makes him at least a semi-professional korean in my stance). That is just beyond any reasonable justification. You wouldn't go to a college basketball player and tell him "yo dude wtf go get on the level of NBA players", when an NBA team would destroy the college basketball league. Again, there is just no comparison and from the posts you and Filthy made, you show that you do not realize how much of a discrepancy there is.
So as already mentioned like 2 or 3 times in this thread, you either announce it to all korean players and make it a korean tournament basically or you exclude koreans totally from this tournament. There is no grey in here.
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So as already mentioned like 2 or 3 times in this thread, you either announce it to all korean players and make it a korean tournament basically or you exclude koreans totally from this tournament. There is no grey in here.
Uh, actually I don't have to do either of those for Have At You!
So, there's that. I'll just let whoever finds out about it sign up. If you don't wanna play, then don't. I don't have to declare anything about my tournament.
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Might as well straight up ask for money from tournament organizers at this rate.
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So you basically ignore all the stuff I wrote before and just take my summarization of my post and throw it out of context so you can make a snappy and pert answer? Yes I know you aren't obliged to do anything, because you are the organizer, but you cannot come into another scene and be totally ignorant about the different circumstances of the scene. It might work in SC2, but that does not mean it will end up well in BW. In the end you want to have a proper tournament with good games and a nice cast, don't you? Why don't you at least try to comprehend the arguments top tier foreigners are making. Bonyth, eOnzerg, trutaCz and co are the people playing the amazing games that you cast pretty well (just as a side compliment  ), why you do not at least consider their point of view. You don't have to worry about me, I am just some low level scrub, who plays just for fun, but there are people in this thread who have a lot of experience in playing koreans, who have the same oppinion as me.
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This seems to be getting out of hand. It's the organizers choice to advertise their tournament as they wish. With that said, Schamtoo + FilthyRake are doing us a favor by hosting these tournaments for us to play in and watch. They advertised on TeamLiquid and said anyone can play in it... It's not their job to advertise in the Korean community. It's not Scan's job to advertise to the Korean community. They can run their tournament as they wish, and are going to do so.
Thank you hosting the recent tournaments and giving us good quality games to watch 
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On April 22 2017 01:53 chrisolo wrote:
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f you want to continue to let korean players in, then try to contact Scan or someone who speaks korean and knows the korean BW scene. Ask him to post on the korean naver forums or something promoting your tournament.
You basically propose Scan to ask for other Koreans to stop him from getting free money.
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The more and more I read the BW forums the more it feels like the foreign BW community will do whatever it takes to drive away everyone from the scene aside for the people that have been around since before 08. Hell you even go after people that were around back then (Day9) because they did the horrific injustice of liking other games.
My 2 cents, take whatever you can get with open arms. If Korean players win the tournament so what? Welcome to almost every eSport ever. LoL, SC2, BW, Heroes, etc....
You want a tournament where no Koreans are allowed? Great, go make your own circuit, there's nothing stopping you. But don't jump on the people actually putting the effort and money just because you can't beat Koreans. Be happy people are trying to work at all with the foreign community, because right now it's all charity, there's no real ROI to be had outside Korean BW.
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So here's the deal. This weekend will proceed as normal. If the turnout is decent, I'll keep them going until it becomes otherwise.
If the turnout sucks, I'll end the tournament series. I'll be bummed about it, but I'll just take it as a sign that the thing I want to do isnt right for the BW community. No judgement in it, it just wont make sense for me to continue.
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On April 22 2017 04:43 aedeph wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2017 01:53 chrisolo wrote:
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f you want to continue to let korean players in, then try to contact Scan or someone who speaks korean and knows the korean BW scene. Ask him to post on the korean naver forums or something promoting your tournament.
You basically propose Scan to ask for other Koreans to stop him from getting free money.
Yes, because people are trying to make it look like someone like trutaCz wants to exclude Scan, so he can make easy money, when in fact there is already someone "making easy money". When Scan and the other koreans get excluded, I am 99,9999% sure we will have many different winners (Dewalt, Sziky, trutaCz, eOnzerg, some peruvians etc etc), whilst when Scan will compete he will win most of the tournaments. I know that Scan has no interest in advertising this tournament on korean websites, but he was the only one I know that knows english, korean and the korean BW scene to be able to advertise it somewhere on the korean pages. I am sure TL admins know other people which also are able to do so and I am sure they are willing to help.
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It's pretty embarrassing how the 'top foreigners' are representing us as a whole in this thread.
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On April 22 2017 04:51 EndingLife wrote:
It's pretty embarrassing how the 'top foreigners' are representing us as a whole in this thread.
You guys are good and all, and I love to watch your streams... but I can't wait for the 'old school gosu' players to return...
I dont think i represent anyone besides me in my posts... And what i see is attack on me that i play on fish server - "Why the fuck u complain, u play on korean server" Fish is open for everyone, go practice, get yourself better, then go and compete with koreans, show entertaiment, whatever. Good luck, im out of this topic
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Germany3128 Posts
I hate that the foreign 'pros' would rather have no tournaments at all than tournaments with a good chance to win  I will be seriously bummed out if people are boycotting this tournament because they don't want to play against Koreans and practise at the same time on fish. If you want to regionlock like sc2 then do it completely.
You know I'm a big BW fan and I'm not watching any other E-Sports, but our community always astounds me with their "I would rather suffer than adapt to anything" sentiment. I think it's dumb to let the 2 biggest tournaments of the foreign scene die because Koreans have a 60% winrate (of the tournaments) in them.
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On April 22 2017 04:59 TheNewEra wrote:I hate that the foreign 'pros' would rather have no tournaments at all than tournaments with a good chance to win I will be seriously bummed out if people are boycotting this tournament because they don't want to play against Koreans and practise at the same time on fish. If you want to regionlock like sc2 then do it completely. You know I'm a big BW fan and I'm not watching any other E-Sports, but our community always astounds me with their "I would rather suffer than adapt to anything" sentiment. I think it's dumb to let the 2 biggest tournaments of the foreign scene die because Koreans have a 60% winrate (of the tournaments) in them.
Small point of clarification: there's no such thing as a foreign pro, semi-pro or anything. Unlike Sc2, foreigners in BW are exclusive amateurs these days.
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Germany3128 Posts
On April 22 2017 05:08 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2017 04:59 TheNewEra wrote:I hate that the foreign 'pros' would rather have no tournaments at all than tournaments with a good chance to win I will be seriously bummed out if people are boycotting this tournament because they don't want to play against Koreans and practise at the same time on fish. If you want to regionlock like sc2 then do it completely. You know I'm a big BW fan and I'm not watching any other E-Sports, but our community always astounds me with their "I would rather suffer than adapt to anything" sentiment. I think it's dumb to let the 2 biggest tournaments of the foreign scene die because Koreans have a 60% winrate (of the tournaments) in them. Small point of clarification: there's no such thing as a foreign pro, semi-pro or anything. Unlike Sc2, foreigners in BW are exclusive amateurs these days.
Yeah I know. I'm sorry. That's why I put the word 'pros' in brackets because I wouldn't know how to describe them else. Gonna be more careful the next time I write about them!
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On April 22 2017 04:57 trutaCz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2017 04:51 EndingLife wrote:
It's pretty embarrassing how the 'top foreigners' are representing us as a whole in this thread.
You guys are good and all, and I love to watch your streams... but I can't wait for the 'old school gosu' players to return... I dont think i represent anyone besides me in my posts... And what i see is attack on me that i play on fish server - "Why the fuck u complain, u play on korean server" Fish is open for everyone, go practice, get yourself better, then go and compete with koreans, show entertaiment, whatever. Good luck, im out of this topic
I'm not attacking you or any of the other current top BW players. Almost all of the current good players play on fish and do well there, so why should they exclude Koreans in their tournament? Well, maybe besides LancerX who breaks even at 300-300 record. There are a lot more D rank foreigners on fish lately, some C and some have gotten B rank. I agree with you and think there should be foreigner only tournaments... But that's not the route the organizers are going for, and we have to respect that.
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On April 22 2017 04:50 chrisolo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2017 04:43 aedeph wrote:On April 22 2017 01:53 chrisolo wrote:
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f you want to continue to let korean players in, then try to contact Scan or someone who speaks korean and knows the korean BW scene. Ask him to post on the korean naver forums or something promoting your tournament.
You basically propose Scan to ask for other Koreans to stop him from getting free money. Yes, because people are trying to make it look like someone like trutaCz wants to exclude Scan, so he can make easy money, when in fact there is already someone "making easy money". When Scan and the other koreans get excluded, I am 99,9999% sure we will have many different winners (Dewalt, Sziky, trutaCz, eOnzerg, some peruvians etc etc), whilst when Scan will compete he will win most of the tournaments. I know that Scan has no interest in advertising this tournament on korean websites, but he was the only one I know that knows english, korean and the korean BW scene to be able to advertise it somewhere on the korean pages. I am sure TL admins know other people which also are able to do so and I am sure they are willing to help.
classicyellow83 and K.H.J recently aggregated and posted tons of information on Korean bw scene from inside perspective. They are the obvious guys to ask, but the problem is, that no one actually wants to do it, foreign players are pussies, organizers consider that they are doing enough, watchers are too lazy.
Personally, I think, that it could be great for foreign scene to integrate somehow into top tier.
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On April 22 2017 05:16 TheNewEra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2017 05:08 Cele wrote:On April 22 2017 04:59 TheNewEra wrote:I hate that the foreign 'pros' would rather have no tournaments at all than tournaments with a good chance to win I will be seriously bummed out if people are boycotting this tournament because they don't want to play against Koreans and practise at the same time on fish. If you want to regionlock like sc2 then do it completely. You know I'm a big BW fan and I'm not watching any other E-Sports, but our community always astounds me with their "I would rather suffer than adapt to anything" sentiment. I think it's dumb to let the 2 biggest tournaments of the foreign scene die because Koreans have a 60% winrate (of the tournaments) in them. Small point of clarification: there's no such thing as a foreign pro, semi-pro or anything. Unlike Sc2, foreigners in BW are exclusive amateurs these days. Yeah I know. I'm sorry. That's why I put the word 'pros' in brackets because I wouldn't know how to describe them else. Gonna be more careful the next time I write about them!
was like directed at the general public in this thread, not at you specifically. (;
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In my personal opinion, i woulnt want this, or any tournament to be advertised to the Ks. Instead, i would want it to be a foreigner-tournament. Something where i can root for my favorite players, or the players that pour so much time into it like Trutaacz, Eon, Koget, Bonyth, Dewalt etc.I want to root and enjoy good games and in my personal opinion having Scan or Sonstar around is taking away from my personal fun (even though i have nothing vs Scan, in fact i donated and watch him - when no foreigner is live and i feel like watcing T).
In all honesty, there is a good reason why for example Scan wasnt allowed in previous tours. "Banning" someone is very serious offense and it probably wasnt taken lightly back then. So basicly, all we are doing it talking over the same that was talked over way back and decided, with good reason.
This is my personal opinion.
In the end, of course the tourney sponsor makes the choice, but he should also take note that he is hopefully doing the tour not for his own ego or PR or shit, but for the (foreigner) community since this is the one that held out with BW for years, when the game had no or barely any streamers or viewers.
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On April 22 2017 04:51 EndingLife wrote:
It's pretty embarrassing how the 'top foreigners' are representing us as a whole in this thread.
Agreed.
Some of the people that signed up for the previous tours got whooped by top foreigners much harder than those same top foreigners get whooped by Scan, but they still sign up anyway. Why? Because tournaments are not only about the money to them, or about "stimulating the foreign scene," or whatever. It's getting a chance to play with people who are better than you, Bo3, maybe ask a question or two, and then use the reps to improve, etc. Although BW is life, this is still a video game at the end of the day. Did you top foreigners get as good as you are by signing up only for tournaments that you can win money in?
Why do people feel entitled to winning money for being the big fish in a small pond, anyway? Don't just take your ball and go home because your chances of winning are low, because there are people in this tour and Have At You! who have ZERO percent chance of winning and still play. If everyone thought like you, then why even participate in tours with Sziky, or IdrA back in the day, etc.? I know I am regurgitating arguments from the embarrassment that was the TLC thread, so let me say it in my own words: if only the people who thought they could win a foreign tournament signed up for it, every tournament would have the same 5-10 people until they quit one by one. Thankfully there are plenty of people outside of the top foreigners who show interest in participating, win or lose.
At the end of the day, if that's not something you're interested in doing, that's your choice and I won't judge you for it. Everyone has a right to do as they please, and if that to you means not competing because you feel you can't win, then that's alright. But know that it is then you who is hurting the chances of the community having tournaments where players, especially foreign players, can win some money, play with each other on stream, be cast by commentators who have high production values and passion, make names for themselves and gain exposure through these broadcasts, which in turn might net you and the game more fans... Basically setting a poor precedent for future and rising players, as well as community organizers and figures alike. It is directly evident in what FilthyRake just said - who wants to put up $100 every week/every other week just to be told what to do, forced to uphold doctrines they don't believe, and deal with boycotts by the best players that normally sign up for this type of tour? I wouldn't keep doing it, and I don't think you would either.
It's not anyone's place to tell an organizer that they "have to pick" whether their tournaments are in support of the foreign community or will enforce a xenophobic divide between the communities.
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EPT
