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On January 09 2017 01:14 Hildegard wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2017 23:40 _Animus_ wrote:
Watching game 1 and i really think flash lost his former skill. Such bad decisions, such bad trades. Guemchi had that game as soon as flash get out to secure 3rd, with only 2 siege tanks and he saw it with obs, he didnt believe in himself enough to give this opportunity a chance... Then a terrible late game army management from guemchi. Looking to me as if hes focused only on prolonging game ,while he dont stand a chance vs flash in a late game. Thats a losers mindset, Guemchi had so many opportunities to win earlier... Obviously. His prime is many years ago, he is a streamer now and not a whole team and trainers supporting him anymore. He aged well, but he still aged and he will never be as good as he was again. ASL is an awesome tournament, but it's a streamer tournament and not comparable to OSL/MSL. He is still among if not the very best player this game has, which is pretty impressive. Unless BW teams re-emerge, stay for some years and get new blood in I doubt we will ever see someone play on the level Flash had in his prime ever again. Edit: He also is free for the first time. He has money, he is semi-famous and can decide what he wants to do. So he probably trains less, drinks more and enjoys the company of female fans and that's well deserved.
Probably. There is still a little hope but I personally don't see a scene with teams coming back.
On January 09 2017 02:09 tedster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2017 01:36 Shinokuki wrote:On January 08 2017 23:40 _Animus_ wrote:
Watching game 1 and i really think flash lost his former skill. Such bad decisions, such bad trades. Guemchi had that game as soon as flash get out to secure 3rd, with only 2 siege tanks and he saw it with obs, he didnt believe in himself enough to give this opportunity a chance... Then a terrible late game army management from guemchi. Looking to me as if hes focused only on prolonging game ,while he dont stand a chance vs flash in a late game. Thats a losers mindset, Guemchi had so many opportunities to win earlier... He did say he hated his performance. BTW, he mismicroed those units and those weren't bad decisions ( he said himself). He's been wrecking the scene with 80% win rate in sponsored matchups so far. Flash did not lose his former skills lmao. Once again, another D rank iccup talking nonsense Whoa dude cool it with the personal attacks, this is ridiculous. Of course Flash has lost skill since he trained 12 hours/day with a full team of coaches, practice partners, and a regular salary. You don't have to be an A-ranked player or even particularly skilled at BW to see that flash now is not as good as flash 5 years ago. You can be a fanboy all you want and you can disagree with his observations but jumping down someone's throat makes you look like a jerk.
This. Very well put.
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Just watched the games and flash won just as expected, but I was very pleased that guemchi did at least provide a show with his strategies 
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United Kingdom1732 Posts
Honestly, I genuinely support a more healthy BW scene in which players aren't expected to practice 24/7 just to be competitive. Yes, we can expect excellence from many and particularly from the best, but I believe we are already seeing that and at some point, the level of skill on display is more than enough to make for fantastic games, even if it isn't quite what it was a few years back. If the players are happy, more sociable, able to pursue other interests etc, I'm 100% behind that.
On topic, Guemchi had some pretty nice ideas today I thought, but Flash's execution was a head and shoulders above. In fact, in a couple of cases, if their execution was equal then with his strategy I would certainly see Guemchi taking more games.
It felt like game three was an example of a player out-strategising the other enough significantly, and being able to just about not fall so far behind in execution as to lose regardless.
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Even though we got the expected result, at least the games were satisfying.
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On January 09 2017 04:39 ImbaTosS wrote:
Honestly, I genuinely support a more healthy BW scene in which players aren't expected to practice 24/7 just to be competitive. Yes, we can expect excellence from many and particularly from the best, but I believe we are already seeing that and at some point, the level of skill on display is more than enough to make for fantastic games, even if it isn't quite what it was a few years back. If the players are happy, more sociable, able to pursue other interests etc, I'm 100% behind that.
On topic, Guemchi had some pretty nice ideas today I thought, but Flash's execution was a head and shoulders above. In fact, in a couple of cases, if their execution was equal then with his strategy I would certainly see Guemchi taking more games.
It felt like game three was an example of a player out-strategising the other enough significantly, and being able to just about not fall so far behind in execution as to lose regardless.
On the one hand I definitely agree with this, but I still think there needs to be some sort of profit-spreading system in order for there to be the option for players to pursue BW at all. I'm honestly not sure there's a happy medium, but if there is, it would be having higher base salaries for players resulting in less money pooling at the top and less of an all-consuming need to be one of the top 5 players to actually matter in the scene.
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Game 4 was a beauty. Can't wait for Flash vs Stork or Jaedong.
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On January 09 2017 05:08 Starlightsun wrote:
Game 4 was a beauty. Can't wait for Flash vs Jaedong.
Yep, same here.
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On January 09 2017 05:08 Starlightsun wrote:
Game 4 was a beauty. Can't wait for Flash vs Stork
Gonna be hype.
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Good games. Enjoying the tournament: HQ videos and Tastosis commentary
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On January 09 2017 05:06 tedster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2017 04:39 ImbaTosS wrote:
Honestly, I genuinely support a more healthy BW scene in which players aren't expected to practice 24/7 just to be competitive. Yes, we can expect excellence from many and particularly from the best, but I believe we are already seeing that and at some point, the level of skill on display is more than enough to make for fantastic games, even if it isn't quite what it was a few years back. If the players are happy, more sociable, able to pursue other interests etc, I'm 100% behind that.
On topic, Guemchi had some pretty nice ideas today I thought, but Flash's execution was a head and shoulders above. In fact, in a couple of cases, if their execution was equal then with his strategy I would certainly see Guemchi taking more games.
It felt like game three was an example of a player out-strategising the other enough significantly, and being able to just about not fall so far behind in execution as to lose regardless. On the one hand I definitely agree with this, but I still think there needs to be some sort of profit-spreading system in order for there to be the option for players to pursue BW at all. I'm honestly not sure there's a happy medium, but if there is, it would be having higher base salaries for players resulting in less money pooling at the top and less of an all-consuming need to be one of the top 5 players to actually matter in the scene.
The problem with increasing the money in the scene at all is that it's pretty correlated to how much time people are willing to put into the game.
If we magically re instituted proleague and gave every regular player an annual salary of a million dollars, people would be training their asses off even more than before. The more money in the scene the more this happens. The reason players can relax more now is that the stakes are a lot lower now.
This is a problem with competitive E-sports. Unlike most other sports, the physical limit on how much you can train productively is much looser. With your muscles, you train them for a certain amount of time and the most productive way to spend the rest of your time is to rest them. With e-sports, physical strain is a much smaller factor so practice times can lengthen to unhealthy levels. In addition, the type of practice that video game players do is less conducive to a healthy lifestyle than regular atheletes.
Great series btw. Game 3 had me on the edge of my seat/seat of my pants/pants of my edge.
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To be honest, your never going to recreate the conditions of proleague teams or the environment of obsessive training-- the obsessive training wasnt useful in the first place. Practicing the same thing for 14 hours a day without proper food, exercise, sleep, or breaks, is not an efficient way of learning something. Period. Obviously you do need to practice alot, and have a lot of practice partners with whom you can trust and trade strategies, somethings teams helped out with. The flip of that was that you were beholden to the team and your replays were secret, amateurs only hope of 'breaking in' was to join a top korean clan, gradually go up the ranks and eventually become a C team player for a proteam (i.e online practice partner). A lot of the "secrets" of the top pros werent really known, and it was hard to find leaked replays, though obviously far from impossible as we have literally thousands. But now we have streaming, and individual income, and the incentive from that will ensure that the scene never goes back to a point where all the top players are insulated in a secret bubble. This is a totally new era where you can get hundreds of hours of FPVODS from anyone at any time, basically.
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the youtube vod is out of sync by roughly 6 mins lol
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On January 09 2017 13:07 Dazed_Spy wrote:
To be honest, your never going to recreate the conditions of proleague teams or the environment of obsessive training-- the obsessive training wasnt useful in the first place. Practicing the same thing for 14 hours a day without proper food, exercise, sleep, or breaks, is not an efficient way of learning something. Period. Obviously you do need to practice alot, and have a lot of practice partners with whom you can trust and trade strategies, somethings teams helped out with. The flip of that was that you were beholden to the team and your replays were secret, amateurs only hope of 'breaking in' was to join a top korean clan, gradually go up the ranks and eventually become a C team player for a proteam (i.e online practice partner). A lot of the "secrets" of the top pros werent really known, and it was hard to find leaked replays, though obviously far from impossible as we have literally thousands. But now we have streaming, and individual income, and the incentive from that will ensure that the scene never goes back to a point where all the top players are insulated in a secret bubble. This is a totally new era where you can get hundreds of hours of FPVODS from anyone at any time, basically.
I think you got the wrong idea about pro teams. They had proper food, exercise, sleep and breaks. Obviously not all teams had that similarly but it developed a lot towards the better over the years. The stories of 14 hour training without breaks came from specific players like Flash or Jaedong who were practicing for a specific match and did it by their own choice.
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On January 09 2017 04:39 ImbaTosS wrote:
Honestly, I genuinely support a more healthy BW scene in which players aren't expected to practice 24/7 just to be competitive. Yes, we can expect excellence from many and particularly from the best, but I believe we are already seeing that and at some point, the level of skill on display is more than enough to make for fantastic games, even if it isn't quite what it was a few years back. If the players are happy, more sociable, able to pursue other interests etc, I'm 100% behind that.
On topic, Guemchi had some pretty nice ideas today I thought, but Flash's execution was a head and shoulders above. In fact, in a couple of cases, if their execution was equal then with his strategy I would certainly see Guemchi taking more games.
It felt like game three was an example of a player out-strategising the other enough significantly, and being able to just about not fall so far behind in execution as to lose regardless.
I think flash played poorly. The last game was the only one wherein he played somewhat ok.
But I'm not as pessimistic as some people. The 1st game he carelessly lost tanks on his initial push, which was huge. I saw him do that against a foreigner in his last WCG; so it's not like he was immune to that during his prime.
And like ImbaToss said, a more "healthy" BW scene sounds pretty ok. And I think I can see that in the way some of the other top players play. I can't quite describe it. They're playing different now. And it's not necessarily worse. It's like they're playing a more freestyle type of play. They don't have the precision that they had during their prime. But it still has their signature. And they're more willing to try and experiment again, even during live matches (before, all that is probably done in the practice room).
Finally, I think Flash not getting back to his prime isn't necessarily a bad thing. It makes what he was able to reach that much more special.
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celebrating guemchi single win ![[image loading]](https://r02.imgup.net/pic5f442.png)
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On January 09 2017 13:07 Dazed_Spy wrote:
To be honest, your never going to recreate the conditions of proleague teams or the environment of obsessive training-- the obsessive training wasnt useful in the first place. Practicing the same thing for 14 hours a day without proper food, exercise, sleep, or breaks, is not an efficient way of learning something. Period. Obviously you do need to practice alot, and have a lot of practice partners with whom you can trust and trade strategies, somethings teams helped out with. The flip of that was that you were beholden to the team and your replays were secret, amateurs only hope of 'breaking in' was to join a top korean clan, gradually go up the ranks and eventually become a C team player for a proteam (i.e online practice partner). A lot of the "secrets" of the top pros werent really known, and it was hard to find leaked replays, though obviously far from impossible as we have literally thousands. But now we have streaming, and individual income, and the incentive from that will ensure that the scene never goes back to a point where all the top players are insulated in a secret bubble. This is a totally new era where you can get hundreds of hours of FPVODS from anyone at any time, basically.
Where you get this info? From what I read most teams had proper schedule for eat, workout and sleep. Gamers who practised all days and nights did it by their own choice (all the best ones).
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On January 09 2017 19:01 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2017 13:07 Dazed_Spy wrote:
To be honest, your never going to recreate the conditions of proleague teams or the environment of obsessive training-- the obsessive training wasnt useful in the first place. Practicing the same thing for 14 hours a day without proper food, exercise, sleep, or breaks, is not an efficient way of learning something. Period. Obviously you do need to practice alot, and have a lot of practice partners with whom you can trust and trade strategies, somethings teams helped out with. The flip of that was that you were beholden to the team and your replays were secret, amateurs only hope of 'breaking in' was to join a top korean clan, gradually go up the ranks and eventually become a C team player for a proteam (i.e online practice partner). A lot of the "secrets" of the top pros werent really known, and it was hard to find leaked replays, though obviously far from impossible as we have literally thousands. But now we have streaming, and individual income, and the incentive from that will ensure that the scene never goes back to a point where all the top players are insulated in a secret bubble. This is a totally new era where you can get hundreds of hours of FPVODS from anyone at any time, basically. I think you got the wrong idea about pro teams. They had proper food, exercise, sleep and breaks. Obviously not all teams had that similarly but it developed a lot towards the better over the years. The stories of 14 hour training without breaks came from specific players like Flash or Jaedong who were practicing for a specific match and did it by their own choice. Really not the impression I got over the last decade of reading on pro bw. I heard about progamers collapsing from lack of sleep or food regularly, emotional abuse and taunting going on within the teams, and information was released at one point years ago showing the pay of players -- c teamers got no pay, b teamers got no pay, and even A (by A list I mean people who are semi regularly on the PL ticket, not potential ace match) list players were barely payed. Only the star players got any money, and even then, only the ones on good teams. Free was barely making anything, for example. And those korean nerds certainly never looked like they worked out, and many of the teams were endemically short of money and on the brink of folding. Maybe there was exercise and a decent regimen in SKT1, I could see that. But hanbit or lecaf? Not likely.On January 09 2017 23:28 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2017 13:07 Dazed_Spy wrote:
To be honest, your never going to recreate the conditions of proleague teams or the environment of obsessive training-- the obsessive training wasnt useful in the first place. Practicing the same thing for 14 hours a day without proper food, exercise, sleep, or breaks, is not an efficient way of learning something. Period. Obviously you do need to practice alot, and have a lot of practice partners with whom you can trust and trade strategies, somethings teams helped out with. The flip of that was that you were beholden to the team and your replays were secret, amateurs only hope of 'breaking in' was to join a top korean clan, gradually go up the ranks and eventually become a C team player for a proteam (i.e online practice partner). A lot of the "secrets" of the top pros werent really known, and it was hard to find leaked replays, though obviously far from impossible as we have literally thousands. But now we have streaming, and individual income, and the incentive from that will ensure that the scene never goes back to a point where all the top players are insulated in a secret bubble. This is a totally new era where you can get hundreds of hours of FPVODS from anyone at any time, basically. Where you get this info? From what I read most teams had proper schedule for eat, workout and sleep. Gamers who practised all days and nights did it by their own choice (all the best ones). Been here a long time, I cant remember where or when everything came out. Idra said some shit, and said some more sporadically through the years, artosis and rekrul, some south koreans posted. There was a thread about the income thing, I'm sure it could be found with a search, it was way back in like 09 or 2010 I think. Also theres choice and then theres "choice".
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On January 10 2017 02:31 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2017 19:01 Miragee wrote:On January 09 2017 13:07 Dazed_Spy wrote:
To be honest, your never going to recreate the conditions of proleague teams or the environment of obsessive training-- the obsessive training wasnt useful in the first place. Practicing the same thing for 14 hours a day without proper food, exercise, sleep, or breaks, is not an efficient way of learning something. Period. Obviously you do need to practice alot, and have a lot of practice partners with whom you can trust and trade strategies, somethings teams helped out with. The flip of that was that you were beholden to the team and your replays were secret, amateurs only hope of 'breaking in' was to join a top korean clan, gradually go up the ranks and eventually become a C team player for a proteam (i.e online practice partner). A lot of the "secrets" of the top pros werent really known, and it was hard to find leaked replays, though obviously far from impossible as we have literally thousands. But now we have streaming, and individual income, and the incentive from that will ensure that the scene never goes back to a point where all the top players are insulated in a secret bubble. This is a totally new era where you can get hundreds of hours of FPVODS from anyone at any time, basically. I think you got the wrong idea about pro teams. They had proper food, exercise, sleep and breaks. Obviously not all teams had that similarly but it developed a lot towards the better over the years. The stories of 14 hour training without breaks came from specific players like Flash or Jaedong who were practicing for a specific match and did it by their own choice. Really not the impression I got over the last decade of reading on pro bw. I heard about progamers collapsing from lack of sleep or food regularly, emotional abuse and taunting going on within the teams, and information was released at one point years ago showing the pay of players -- c teamers got no pay, b teamers got no pay, and even A (by A list I mean people who are semi regularly on the PL ticket, not potential ace match) list players were barely payed. Only the star players got any money, and even then, only the ones on good teams. Free was barely making anything, for example. And those korean nerds certainly never looked like they worked out, and many of the teams were endemically short of money and on the brink of folding. Maybe there was exercise and a decent regimen in SKT1, I could see that. But hanbit or lecaf? Not likely. Show nested quote +On January 09 2017 23:28 Piste wrote:On January 09 2017 13:07 Dazed_Spy wrote:
To be honest, your never going to recreate the conditions of proleague teams or the environment of obsessive training-- the obsessive training wasnt useful in the first place. Practicing the same thing for 14 hours a day without proper food, exercise, sleep, or breaks, is not an efficient way of learning something. Period. Obviously you do need to practice alot, and have a lot of practice partners with whom you can trust and trade strategies, somethings teams helped out with. The flip of that was that you were beholden to the team and your replays were secret, amateurs only hope of 'breaking in' was to join a top korean clan, gradually go up the ranks and eventually become a C team player for a proteam (i.e online practice partner). A lot of the "secrets" of the top pros werent really known, and it was hard to find leaked replays, though obviously far from impossible as we have literally thousands. But now we have streaming, and individual income, and the incentive from that will ensure that the scene never goes back to a point where all the top players are insulated in a secret bubble. This is a totally new era where you can get hundreds of hours of FPVODS from anyone at any time, basically. Where you get this info? From what I read most teams had proper schedule for eat, workout and sleep. Gamers who practised all days and nights did it by their own choice (all the best ones). Been here a long time, I cant remember where or when everything came out. Idra said some shit, and said some more sporadically through the years, artosis and rekrul, some south koreans posted. There was a thread about the income thing, I'm sure it could be found with a search, it was way back in like 09 or 2010 I think. Also theres choice and then theres "choice".
I remember that income chart and I don't remember about C and B teamers but A teamers made a decent living irrc. About the exercise, there were multiple stories where team houses introduced schedules for mandatory workouts. Some people obviously did more than others but everyone at least had to workout a few times each week. About "they didn't look like it"... Well, they were mostly in suits and stuff. Koreans aren't known for building big ass muscles but more for having slim muscles. There was a very popular thread here on TL, showing of the bodies of pro gamers and quite a few could have been models as far as I'm concerned.
//I think for a lot of players it was a lot healthier to be on a good team with schedules for workout, sleep and food (decent food at that) than sitting at their homes all day to play on stream. Some might manage to stay healthy that way others might not.
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On January 09 2017 21:42 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:celebrating guemchi single win
GuemChi needs to go to Bisu's barber.
That glorified bowl-cut is not up to the standards of his up n' coming status. 
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EPT
