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[ASL2] Ro16 Day 3 - Page 16

Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments
Post a Reply
Prev 1 14 15 16 17 Next All
LaStScan
Profile Joined May 2011
Korea (South)1290 Posts
December 25 2016 13:11 GMT
#301
On December 25 2016 21:48 Lachrymose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2016 21:35 usopsama wrote:
[image loading]

This map pool though.

If Jaedong or hero get paired up with a protoss in the RO8, they are basically dead.


Did you actually just cite the winrates from ASL2 as the source to show that the race imbalance in ASL2 is due to the maps? That's impressively ridiculous.

Anyway, here's stats from old TLPD since the amatuer era one has very few entries:

Benzene
TvZ: 25-14 (64.1%)
ZvP: 27-28 (49.1%)
PvT: 19-20 (48.7%)

Circuit Breaker
TvZ: 64-57 (52.9%)
ZvP: 59-55 (51.8%)
PvT: 71-63 (53%)

Eye of the Storm
TvZ: 54-46 (54%)
ZvP: 43-30 (58.9%)
PvT: 52-43 (54.7%)



can you also try getting rid off flash's record on benzene, cb, and eye of the storm? i would like to see the data without flash's score added into it.
Trying my best for ASL, ASTL
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19397 Posts
December 25 2016 13:18 GMT
#302
Merry Christmas !!!!
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-25 14:03:30
December 25 2016 13:34 GMT
#303
On December 25 2016 22:11 LaStScan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2016 21:48 Lachrymose wrote:
On December 25 2016 21:35 usopsama wrote:
[image loading]

This map pool though.

If Jaedong or hero get paired up with a protoss in the RO8, they are basically dead.


Did you actually just cite the winrates from ASL2 as the source to show that the race imbalance in ASL2 is due to the maps? That's impressively ridiculous.

Anyway, here's stats from old TLPD since the amatuer era one has very few entries:

Benzene
TvZ: 25-14 (64.1%)
ZvP: 27-28 (49.1%)
PvT: 19-20 (48.7%)

Circuit Breaker
TvZ: 64-57 (52.9%)
ZvP: 59-55 (51.8%)
PvT: 71-63 (53%)

Eye of the Storm
TvZ: 54-46 (54%)
ZvP: 43-30 (58.9%)
PvT: 52-43 (54.7%)



can you also try getting rid off flash's record on benzene, cb, and eye of the storm? i would like to see the data without flash's score added into it.


Shouldn't you also remove the results of the best of the players from the other respective races in that case?

There's an easy way to decide to gauge the balance of the map that was played in the ProLeague. Both Benzene and Circuit Breaker was played in the Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague.

In this particular season of the ProLeague, Benzene had a lot more zerg versus zerg (19), and protoss versus protoss (18) matches than terran versus terran (5). Despite the good terran results had against zergs in the map, perhaps the level difficulty terrans had against protoss makes this a bad map for terrans. Sea was very vocal about the level of imbalance against terrans in this particular map.

For the 2010/2011 ProLeague season, Circuit Breaker had a more balanced range of mirror match-ups than Benzene, although terran versus terran (31) was more frequent than either protoss versus protoss (18), or zerg versus zerg (11). It seems terran is slightly more favourable in the eyes of the players and coaches in this map, or maybe just more terran friendly than the other maps used in that season of ProLeague. Not a such a good map for the zerg race it seems.

It's harder to find an objective measure of balance for Eye of the Storm, since it was never used in the ProLeague, but it seems to be the typical T>Z>P>T map. Not such a good map for the zerg race.

Considering all three maps are not easy for terran players when playing versus protoss, and we have basically only terran and protoss players in the round of 16, isn't it kind of obvious why terrans are struggling? It's not necessarily a map pool problem, perhaps it's a racial distribution problem. There are basically only two races involved, and one is favoured over the other. What now? You want the terran race to be favoured over protoss, as well as being generally favoured over zerg?

TL+ Member
bovienchien
Profile Joined March 2014
Vietnam1152 Posts
December 25 2016 13:51 GMT
#304
On December 25 2016 22:09 LaStScan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2016 21:17 bovienchien wrote:
On December 25 2016 21:04 usopsama wrote:
[image loading]

this picture is so different from the Ro16 picture.

Flash, Sea will be 2 last Terran of this season but I won't surprise when have no any Terran advance ro8.

It's so sad today for me and for fan Terran.


the moment when they decided to put benzene for final match..

What? The benzen map hasn't never chosen in the final match.

The fact in ro24 and ro16, Terran often lose in this map by rush luker of Zerg and big fighting late game by Protoss.

https://www.facebook.com/StarcraftRemasteredVN/
Harem
Profile Joined November 2007
United States11393 Posts
December 25 2016 14:00 GMT
#305
On December 25 2016 22:34 Letmelose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2016 22:11 LaStScan wrote:
On December 25 2016 21:48 Lachrymose wrote:
On December 25 2016 21:35 usopsama wrote:
[image loading]

This map pool though.

If Jaedong or hero get paired up with a protoss in the RO8, they are basically dead.


Did you actually just cite the winrates from ASL2 as the source to show that the race imbalance in ASL2 is due to the maps? That's impressively ridiculous.

Anyway, here's stats from old TLPD since the amatuer era one has very few entries:

Benzene
TvZ: 25-14 (64.1%)
ZvP: 27-28 (49.1%)
PvT: 19-20 (48.7%)

Circuit Breaker
TvZ: 64-57 (52.9%)
ZvP: 59-55 (51.8%)
PvT: 71-63 (53%)

Eye of the Storm
TvZ: 54-46 (54%)
ZvP: 43-30 (58.9%)
PvT: 52-43 (54.7%)



can you also try getting rid off flash's record on benzene, cb, and eye of the storm? i would like to see the data without flash's score added into it.


Shouldn't you also remove the results of the best of the players from the other respective races in that case?

Yeah, JD and Bisu skew the stats too especially JD's record on Circuit Breaker.

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/404_Circuit_Breaker/player_stats
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/407_Benzene/player_stats (bisu pvz)
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/243_Eye_of_the_Storm/player_stats (bisu and osl didnt exactly mix so really low sample size for him here)
Moderator。◕‿◕。
Lucumo
Profile Joined January 2010
6850 Posts
December 25 2016 14:10 GMT
#306
On December 25 2016 21:32 Bakuryu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2016 21:07 Lucumo wrote:
On December 25 2016 21:06 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
On December 25 2016 21:04 Bakuryu wrote:
im sad... just sad.... bisu winning over hero was the only good thing.

we are very close to loss our relationszergship gentleman

Yeah, what a disgusting statement.


wtf how is that a disgusting statement?

Traitor to the Swarm, being happy that a Protoss, Bisu at that, slew Hero.
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-25 14:24:55
December 25 2016 14:24 GMT
#307
On December 25 2016 23:00 Harem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2016 22:34 Letmelose wrote:
On December 25 2016 22:11 LaStScan wrote:
On December 25 2016 21:48 Lachrymose wrote:
On December 25 2016 21:35 usopsama wrote:
[image loading]

This map pool though.

If Jaedong or hero get paired up with a protoss in the RO8, they are basically dead.


Did you actually just cite the winrates from ASL2 as the source to show that the race imbalance in ASL2 is due to the maps? That's impressively ridiculous.

Anyway, here's stats from old TLPD since the amatuer era one has very few entries:

Benzene
TvZ: 25-14 (64.1%)
ZvP: 27-28 (49.1%)
PvT: 19-20 (48.7%)

Circuit Breaker
TvZ: 64-57 (52.9%)
ZvP: 59-55 (51.8%)
PvT: 71-63 (53%)

Eye of the Storm
TvZ: 54-46 (54%)
ZvP: 43-30 (58.9%)
PvT: 52-43 (54.7%)



can you also try getting rid off flash's record on benzene, cb, and eye of the storm? i would like to see the data without flash's score added into it.


Shouldn't you also remove the results of the best of the players from the other respective races in that case?

Yeah, JD and Bisu skew the stats too especially JD's record on Circuit Breaker.

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/404_Circuit_Breaker/player_stats
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/407_Benzene/player_stats (bisu pvz)
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/243_Eye_of_the_Storm/player_stats (bisu and osl didnt exactly mix so really low sample size for him here)


Fun trivia. In the five maps awarded by KeSPA for being the map of the season (Sin Peaks of Baekdu, Blue Storm, Destination, Fighting Spirit, and Circuit Breaker), Jaedong has the best records in four of them. Jaedong on balanced maps is overpowered.
TL+ Member
iamho
Profile Joined June 2009
United States3347 Posts
December 25 2016 14:39 GMT
#308
Sucks that Last had to get eliminated given the caliber of players that made it through in groups A/B
LaStScan
Profile Joined May 2011
Korea (South)1290 Posts
December 25 2016 14:41 GMT
#309
On December 25 2016 22:51 bovienchien wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2016 22:09 LaStScan wrote:
On December 25 2016 21:17 bovienchien wrote:
On December 25 2016 21:04 usopsama wrote:
[image loading]

this picture is so different from the Ro16 picture.

Flash, Sea will be 2 last Terran of this season but I won't surprise when have no any Terran advance ro8.

It's so sad today for me and for fan Terran.


the moment when they decided to put benzene for final match..

What? The benzen map hasn't never chosen in the final match.

The fact in ro24 and ro16, Terran often lose in this map by rush luker of Zerg and big fighting late game by Protoss.



oh my bad
Trying my best for ASL, ASTL
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10581 Posts
December 25 2016 15:10 GMT
#310
BEST CHRISTMAS EVER HERO ADVANCESSSSS
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
SCC-Faust
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States3736 Posts
December 25 2016 15:15 GMT
#311
On December 26 2016 00:10 FlaShFTW wrote:
BEST CHRISTMAS EVER HERO ADVANCESSSSS


Me and you are thinking the same thing. I want hero to win the whole tournament. Hero fighting!@
I want to fuck Soulkey with a Zelderan.
B-royal
Profile Joined May 2015
Belgium1330 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-25 15:36:53
December 25 2016 15:29 GMT
#312
Rush lost in my opinion because he only used 3 marines for the longest time to attack the natural hatchery. All the other marines (up until 6+) were standing idly by at the mineral only base instead of attacking the natural. If he'd killed the natural much sooner, he could have moved into the main a lot sooner. And that would have resulted in a completely different game.

I think that was the main mistake.

edit: It seems rush also didn't pay any attention to the spawning pool timing? I looked like he had no idea the 3rd hatchery existed until 2 lings attack his incoming marines from the back. Not sure what the correct decision making is if you know hero's getting 3 hatcheries (split your marines early on or ignore the third hatchery like he did this game). I think you can probably get your first 6 or so marines towards the natural and then the subsequent marines to the third and kill both of them at the same time. The bunker and the couple of scvs can after all defend against a lot of zerglings and drones at the same time, and you don't need that many marines to kill a single lone hatchery even with lings spawning from it.
new BW-player (~E rank fish) twitch.tv/crispydrone || What plays 500 games a season but can't get better? => http://imgur.com/a/pLzf9 <= ||
Crisium
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States1618 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-25 16:33:08
December 25 2016 16:32 GMT
#313
Jaedong also held off a BBS with a 3 hatch. SPL vs Canata (Air Force):



Although, the 3rd hatch was protected here on Neo Electric Circuit.
Broodwar and Stork forever! List of BW players with most Ro16, Ro8: http://tinyurl.com/BWRo16-Ro8
Miragee
Profile Joined December 2009
8716 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-25 17:13:59
December 25 2016 16:49 GMT
#314
How on earth did Hero win that game against Rush. Holy fuck! I think Rush did a terrible job and walked away from the main base. Just walk around the sunken and kill the workers and build a bunker at home. Still pretty incredible how calm Hero played that all the way to the end. No panicing at all.

Hero was really on fire today. Even more impressive that Bisu won vs him the way he did. That was insane. Hero's Last game vs Last was so damn solid. Last never saw the light in that game.

I must say I really liked Tasteless' casting. He did far better than I expected, very pleasing.
Glioburd
Profile Joined April 2008
France1911 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-25 17:46:06
December 25 2016 17:44 GMT
#315
Wow herO, he played so well. I'm happy for him (even if as a terran, seeing Last out is kinda painful).
Bisu played flawless as well.
"You should hate loosing, but you should never fear defeat." NaDa.
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-25 17:59:43
December 25 2016 17:52 GMT
#316
yes, both Bisu and hero played really well today. Bisu losing probes due to that zergling runby was unfortunate but his hydra defense and followup attack micro etc... were insanely good. Corsairs also killed a ton of overlords. Almost reminds me of that hero vs bisu game 5 SSL9 game where Bisu went 1 gate and somehow won that match. His game against Last was amazing as well. People are calling Last sloppy? No, rather, Bisu micro'd like a madman. Targetting tanks while his zealots target marines, pulling back units and he was thinking ahead in the game as evident by his followup shuttle dt plan etc... Nothing against Last there, he could've done some things better but Bisu just one-up'd him.

hero also played really solid that last game against Last. Got a third up, defended really well, caught Last just as he was transitioning with multiple drops etc... Aside from his mutalisk mishap, it was like a textbook example of how to deal with mech (basically, attack at the best timing with 400+ apm lol). Great games all around. Sad to see Last knocked out though and never imagined that we'll have zero terrans advancing to the Ro8 so far, unbelievable. I'm hoping both Flash and Sea advance!

edit: that hero vs rush game though. As someone mentioned, Rush had 5 idle marines at least and was only attacking the exp with 3 other ones. He could've easily finished it off faster and attacked the main. Then a bunker at his main+several marines and lift rax into main or something. hero would've been in trouble if his main was razed and he lost most of his drones so he would've been forced to all-in potentially while Rush could've defended. After all, if he was dry on the mineral count, that hidden hatchery wouldn't have produced anything for a long while. Given, Rush wasn't expecting that hidden third and only scouted it after seeing those 2 lings attack his marines.
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
Bisu-Fan
Profile Joined January 2010
Russian Federation3339 Posts
December 25 2016 17:59 GMT
#317
yeeeee happy bisu won! )))) i was cheering for all the zergs this ro16 cause only 2 existed, but what's with terran haha
The Revolutionist Shall Rise Again! No. 1 Kim Taek Yong Fan 어헣↗ GO JAEDONG!!!!!!! GO ACE!!! 태연 <3 윤아 <3 승연 <3
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10581 Posts
December 25 2016 20:59 GMT
#318
On December 26 2016 00:15 SCC-Faust wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 26 2016 00:10 FlaShFTW wrote:
BEST CHRISTMAS EVER HERO ADVANCESSSSS


Me and you are thinking the same thing. I want hero to win the whole tournament. Hero fighting!@

I want flash to win the whole thing though :C but #1 hero fanboy is happy.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
Shinokuki
Profile Joined July 2013
United States928 Posts
December 25 2016 23:19 GMT
#319
On December 25 2016 19:57 Xeln4g4 wrote:
Only Bisu could win this game playing like this...big mistakes from hero imho....losing all those over leaving them undefended...

pathetic reaction from your part. Commentators a d all progamers were applauding both for insane multitasking. Bisu was too good that hero could. ot keep up. go study more
Life is just life
Shinokuki
Profile Joined July 2013
United States928 Posts
December 25 2016 23:31 GMT
#320
On December 25 2016 21:43 Bakuryu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2016 21:35 usopsama wrote:
[image loading]

This map pool though.

If Jaedong or hero get paired up with a protoss in the RO8, they are basically dead.


im grinning so hard right now :D
are you actually implying a map imbalance
with less than 15 games played.....
per match up....
over ALL 4 maps.

i mean, have you even watched the games?

progamer zergs have mentioned that zvp is impossible on benzene anyways
Life is just life
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