EPT[ASL] Ro16 Day 1 - Page 17
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50585 Posts
more nonsense than HBR | ||
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Epithet
United States840 Posts
Calling Chappelle | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On July 17 2016 21:05 Charoisaur wrote: to me as a sc2 noob it looked like zero was winning the whole time, taking good engagement after good engagement. what made flash win this? You're going to get a lot of valid answers to this question in this thread, but a simple framework for evaluating ZvT and ZvP is as follows. In ZvT and ZvP, if Zerg has <= the number of bases as Terran / Protoss, Zerg is default behind. That means you should assume Zerg will lose unless Zerg is dominating on screen. And by dominating I mean like, winning at least 3/4 of the exchanges you see. It's really easy when seeing Zerg winning something like 2/3 of the skirmishes to assume they must be ahead, because you're noticing Zerg win most fights, but in ZvT especially, that's not good enough. In this particular game, Zero was winning most fights and was maybe even close to the necessary threshold. I think if he'd been able to break through and actually shut down the two bottom left bases for a sustained period of time, he would've won. He was close to doing that but Flash held and the back breaker was Zero throwing away a bunch of stuff the last time he attacked bottom left. Remember, if Zerg loses a big fight in ZvT when at even or less bases than Terran, it should count like Terran just won 3 fights. By virtue of never really losing mining at his 5 primary bases, Flash did just enough to break Zero's back eventually. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50585 Posts
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/f/f9/Taebaek_Mountains_1.1_map.jpg) map image incase someone wants to see. | ||
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Epithet
United States840 Posts
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On July 17 2016 21:14 letian wrote: The softness of Zero is renown and probably the reason why he was not as successful as other greatest players. Should I mention Sea? Another great player with mentality problems. Yeah though in fairness to Zero, I think he's like 10x the mental strength of Sea. But that says more about how pitiful Sea's mental "strength" is. Both are prime examples of unfulfilled potential, though Zero's always bugged me more simply because he was closer to being truly great. A fully potential reached Zero would have been a great complement to Jaedong and Effort as all three have different styles. Whereas it's hard to imagine even a peak potential Sea being any better than 80% Flash. | ||
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Ciryandor
United States3735 Posts
On July 17 2016 21:12 monk wrote: Mech switches started I believe in 2010? Gate first PvZ i remember went from non-existent to extremely rare at the end. Is it more common now? And why? I remember the TvT metagame switch from Drops into BCs to Wraiths/Valk happening between 2010 to 2012. I asked around back then though and no one could tell me why the switch was happening. Anyone have an answer now? Also, I remember Zero used to get mass Queens in ZvT vs Tanks, but in very rare games. Does he do this as a standard now? Mech switches vZ were first a Fantasy-only thing, then people realized that Bio only or Bio+Tank was too weak against cracklings and Ultras under swarm. Vultures to space with Mines and harassment with grenades were much more worth against both compositions. TvT swings are basically a hodgepodge of Tank Drops, Tank Lines with Golis, Wraith comps and BCs. Wraith mobility counters Dropships heavily, as Goliaths are immobile and with in a comp Dropships, vulnerable to sniping. Also, Wraith Cloak is expensive to counter with multiple scans. ZerO still wants Queens very late, but the maps are not conducive to hiding it. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50585 Posts
On July 17 2016 21:21 Epithet wrote: I'm glad this probably won't be a 40 minute game I doubt you'll see many games go long but I know that if they do they will go really long | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On July 17 2016 21:12 monk wrote: Mech switches started I believe in 2010? Gate first PvZ i remember went from non-existent to extremely rare at the end. Is it more common now? And why? I remember the TvT metagame switch from Drops into BCs to Wraiths/Valk happening between 2010 to 2012. I asked around back then though and no one could tell me why the switch was happening. Anyone have an answer now? Also, I remember Zero used to get mass Queens in ZvT vs Tanks, but in very rare games. Does he do this as a standard now? yeah mech switch started about that time. I'd say it's a bit more refined now but hard to tell. Gate first PvZ: hard to say. I think it's more common on map positions that allow for a nice 1 gap wall, like FS bot left top right (Shuttle was on the wrong position tho). I also think the general expertise in executing this has increased. Can't answer your TvT question. Queens vs mech switched terrans: wouldn't call it standard, but it sees an increasing amount of play, also because maps allow for it and zergs have improved in the execution (imho) | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50585 Posts
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Lucumo
6850 Posts
Damn stream back to lagging again  | ||
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maze.
Germany1392 Posts
On July 17 2016 21:14 Slayer91 wrote: guys I slept in and missed flash and effort play are tastosis vods gonna be out? Vod is already available: www.twitch.tv | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On July 17 2016 21:07 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: i dont think mutas was a real option here cuz he didnt made a single air upgrade,and just with 10 gols will be more than enough to kill muta force,but i think zero biggest mistake was to waste all the big ultra army in drops,im pretty sure droping lings without turrets to defend was almost gg,but he waste the ultras tt I mean sure 10 gols > 12 mutas in a straight battle But flash had no anti air. Mutas would have been great to harrass all the 3 new bases of flash as mutas just fly from one to another base and dont fight the already late coming goliaths. This would only work vs flash ofcourse cuz I thought it's very obvious that flash is really greedy with his 3rd, 4th and 5th exps. But yeah, i agree zero could have done way better in general this game | ||
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r33k
Italy3402 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
On July 17 2016 21:22 Cele wrote: yeah mech switch started about that time. I'd say it's a bit more refined now but hard to tell. Gate first PvZ: hard to say. I think it's more common on map positions that allow for a nice 1 gap wall, like FS bot left top right (Shuttle was on the wrong position tho). I also think the general expertise in executing this has increased. Can't answer your TvT question. Queens vs mech switched terrans: wouldn't call it standard, but it sees an increasing amount of play, also because maps allow for it and zergs have improved in the execution (imho) It's also worth noting that mech switch is only a thing because of the strength of lategame 4 gas defiler/ultra/ling, which itself is a thing because of the type of map that became popular at that time. The mech switch just efficiently uses that same abundance of gas against the Zerg. I don't think we'd see the same style of TvZ if maps were still more like Python. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50585 Posts
On July 17 2016 21:27 r33k wrote: The resolution is so high you can see the pixels on the sides of the spider mines and see who they belong to. wow are people coming back to watch BW after so long they're not used to high quality streams, I'll be honest there something comforting about watching it in lower quality on purpose. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On July 17 2016 21:28 gngfn wrote: It's also worth noting that mech switch is only a thing because of the strength of lategame 4 gas defiler/ultra/ling, which itself is a thing because of the type of map that became popular at that time. The mech switch just efficiently uses that same abundance of gas against the Zerg. I don't think we'd see the same style of TvZ if maps were still more like Python. Piano is the only one who still uses sk terran. | ||
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r33k
Italy3402 Posts
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