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On November 07 2015 05:10 ggrrg wrote:
Actually, you only need to know 6 matchups, 3 of them you should be able to play from both sides, but you should know the timings and strategies of both sides no matter which side you are on.
This already tells me enough, to tell you that you absolutely do not have a clue, what it is like to play random. I understand that if you play enough of 1 race, you can get a grasp on how to play the other side, too. But you have to keep in mind that you play each matchup much less than a set race. You play each matchup roughly 1/3 of your matches, whilst random player only play every matchup every 1/9 matches. Some more, but some even much less, as there less terrans out there in the D ranks.
Random is just as legit as playing another matchup. Yes it plays differently, but so you should approach it. You cannot just take a blind guess and go for a standard build for one specific matchup. But you can play this "matchup" just like any other one. F.e. as protoss you can simply go 1 Gate Core. Yes this even works against Zerg. It was even standard at some point in history. Yes it is harder than standard play and most of Protoss won't play 1 Gate styles. So you are uncomfortable with it. But guess what? Playing Zerg against 1 Base strategys is just as uncomfortable for the zerg, as most zerg do not have experience with it either.
Some of you guys take these leagues WAY to seriously. Just have some fun...
Going against a random player? Don't be afraid, think to yourself that you have a high chance that this matchup is a weak one of the random player and even if it is his good one, he still is not as experienced as you are in this matchup.
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oops hit quote instead of edit
delete pls
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On November 07 2015 06:53 chrisolo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2015 05:10 ggrrg wrote:
Actually, you only need to know 6 matchups, 3 of them you should be able to play from both sides, but you should know the timings and strategies of both sides no matter which side you are on. You cannot just take a blind guess and go for a standard build for one specific matchup. But you can play this "matchup" just like any other one. I.e. as protoss you can simply go 1 Gate Core. Some of you guys take these leagues WAY to seriously. Just have some fun...Going against a random player? Don't be afraid, think to yourself that you have a high chance that this matchup is a weak one of the random player and even if it is his good one, he still is not as experienced as you are in this matchup.
See those two are oil and water. They don't go together. 1 gate core just isn't a fun way to play PvZ for some of us. Just like some players don't think it's fun to cheese and others don't think its fun to play macro, standard builds. Random reduces the number of build options you have, to the extent you can be forced down entire paths you don't enjoy playing.
1) Is it good for your gameplay? Absolutely
2) Would I personally consider it a "fair" MU? Yes. Yes I would. (Caveat: if you're a race picker and get the MU you don't touch with a 10 foot pole)
3) Is it fun? Noooooooo!
And that third line is the crux of the problem.
Let me ask you this question in return: What is fun for you about playing random?
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On November 07 2015 07:44 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2015 06:53 chrisolo wrote:On November 07 2015 05:10 ggrrg wrote:
Actually, you only need to know 6 matchups, 3 of them you should be able to play from both sides, but you should know the timings and strategies of both sides no matter which side you are on. You cannot just take a blind guess and go for a standard build for one specific matchup. But you can play this "matchup" just like any other one. I.e. as protoss you can simply go 1 Gate Core. Some of you guys take these leagues WAY to seriously. Just have some fun...Going against a random player? Don't be afraid, think to yourself that you have a high chance that this matchup is a weak one of the random player and even if it is his good one, he still is not as experienced as you are in this matchup. See those two are oil and water. They don't go together. 1 gate core just isn't a fun way to play PvZ for some of us. Just like some players don't think it's fun to cheese and others don't think its fun to play macro, standard builds. Random reduces the number of build options you have, to the extent you can be forced down entire paths you don't enjoy playing. 1) Is it good for your gameplay? Absolutely 2) Would I personally consider it a "fair" MU? Yes. Yes I would. (Caveat: if you're a race picker and get the MU you don't touch with a 10 foot pole) 3) Is it fun? Noooooooo! And that third line is the crux of the problem. Let me ask you this question in return: What is fun for you about playing random?
I like playing random because it isn't as repetitive and I kind of make up my game plan as I go along, I like playing Protoss more because I like to win.
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On November 07 2015 08:06 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2015 07:44 L_Master wrote:On November 07 2015 06:53 chrisolo wrote:On November 07 2015 05:10 ggrrg wrote:
Actually, you only need to know 6 matchups, 3 of them you should be able to play from both sides, but you should know the timings and strategies of both sides no matter which side you are on. You cannot just take a blind guess and go for a standard build for one specific matchup. But you can play this "matchup" just like any other one. I.e. as protoss you can simply go 1 Gate Core. Some of you guys take these leagues WAY to seriously. Just have some fun...Going against a random player? Don't be afraid, think to yourself that you have a high chance that this matchup is a weak one of the random player and even if it is his good one, he still is not as experienced as you are in this matchup. See those two are oil and water. They don't go together. 1 gate core just isn't a fun way to play PvZ for some of us. Just like some players don't think it's fun to cheese and others don't think its fun to play macro, standard builds. Random reduces the number of build options you have, to the extent you can be forced down entire paths you don't enjoy playing. 1) Is it good for your gameplay? Absolutely 2) Would I personally consider it a "fair" MU? Yes. Yes I would. (Caveat: if you're a race picker and get the MU you don't touch with a 10 foot pole) 3) Is it fun? Noooooooo! And that third line is the crux of the problem. Let me ask you this question in return: What is fun for you about playing random? I like playing random because it isn't as repetitive and I kind of make up my game plan as I go along, I like playing Protoss more because I like to win.
This is what I expect most people's answer is, and if that is the case then playing random + shout still gives the same variety while eliminating the obnoxious aspect of playing random from the opponents end.
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On November 07 2015 06:39 Eywa- wrote:
I still want the tier system to be explained if it please the organizer.
Old iccup system:
E D- D D+ C- C C+ B- B B+ A- A A+ O
New iccup system
E D C B A O
I never got C- on the old system, yet I am listed as C-... Talent (example I am taking because he seems like one of the better players/edge cases) C+ old system is considered C+...
The portion I want to have explained I guess is... Are we taking new system ranks when convenient and old system ranks when convenient? Because by the new iccup system, both Talent and I are considered to be the same rank (according to the ranks set for us in the OP) - by the old system ranks, I am not C-. Please explain.
Also, does anyone think it's unfair for LuMiX to play in this league? Is he better than all of the players in this league? We were discussing that on skype and we didn't really think so... Why is he being refused while other (just as good players) aren't? Is he just being used as an example to justify refusing edge cases?
Please clarify when you can.
my take on this situation is this: Shimy takes the highrank, regardless of whether it was achieved under the new or old ladder system. In my opnion there is no way around out, otherwise you would have to try to calculate what a new ICC rank is worth in comparison to the old rank. And you can't do that, because it depends on the way you ladder. For instance, i finished in the new system as C, whereas my max before was C-, but some guys i know have improved from C to B-.
So i think this problem has to be left alone, as it can't be fixed right now.
Regarding Talent: The fact is, Talent never achieved a higher rank on ICC than C+. If you want to say he is probably better, im very eager to agree with you. But making an extra case about him would require shimy to make an extra case about a lot of people and that's not feasible, given how much time you have to put in it.
Regarding Lumix: Again, you have to make a cut somewhere and Lumix did reach B- on iccup. He did so under the old system and he did so quite handily with 75% winratio or so and he did it more than once. So i don't see why this needs to be discussed tbh.
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On November 07 2015 08:08 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2015 08:06 Eywa- wrote:On November 07 2015 07:44 L_Master wrote:On November 07 2015 06:53 chrisolo wrote:On November 07 2015 05:10 ggrrg wrote:
Actually, you only need to know 6 matchups, 3 of them you should be able to play from both sides, but you should know the timings and strategies of both sides no matter which side you are on. You cannot just take a blind guess and go for a standard build for one specific matchup. But you can play this "matchup" just like any other one. I.e. as protoss you can simply go 1 Gate Core. Some of you guys take these leagues WAY to seriously. Just have some fun...Going against a random player? Don't be afraid, think to yourself that you have a high chance that this matchup is a weak one of the random player and even if it is his good one, he still is not as experienced as you are in this matchup. See those two are oil and water. They don't go together. 1 gate core just isn't a fun way to play PvZ for some of us. Just like some players don't think it's fun to cheese and others don't think its fun to play macro, standard builds. Random reduces the number of build options you have, to the extent you can be forced down entire paths you don't enjoy playing. 1) Is it good for your gameplay? Absolutely 2) Would I personally consider it a "fair" MU? Yes. Yes I would. (Caveat: if you're a race picker and get the MU you don't touch with a 10 foot pole) 3) Is it fun? Noooooooo! And that third line is the crux of the problem. Let me ask you this question in return: What is fun for you about playing random? I like playing random because it isn't as repetitive and I kind of make up my game plan as I go along, I like playing Protoss more because I like to win. This is what I expect most people's answer is, and if that is the case then playing random + shout still gives the same variety while eliminating the obnoxious aspect of playing random from the opponents end.
I play random very often, probably 90% of my past 2 years' games, because...
1. More variety, as said above. Not just in the races and MUs you play, but in the strategies that are viable and effective.
2. You learn the races other than your main in the process. My T/Z have improved a lot, and so has my understanding of T/Z to smaller degree. At least at the scrub level. I'm not learning profound truths, just stuff that is probably common sense to a Zerg main that I realize only after going every variant of Pool-first on my own, thus broadening my understanding of XvZ as well.
3. I do like the advantage of my opponent having to scout early or play in a way that makes them uncomfortable, like 1 base PvZ.
4. Because I (sometimes) can.
Shouting would eliminate the 3rd point above, and I'd be totally fine with that. Sure, it hurts the random player a little, but it is still only a part of the reason why I play random. Maybe other players feel the same way.
Still, not trying to advocate for there to be a rule change, just wanted to give some of my input in this discussion.
On November 07 2015 08:29 Cele wrote:
Regarding Talent: The fact is, Talent never achieved a higher rank on ICC than C+. If you want to say he is probably better, im very eager to agree with you. But making an extra case about him would require shimy to make an extra case about a lot of people and that's not feasible, given how much time you have to put in it.
Regarding Lumix: Again, you have to make a cut somewhere and Lumix did reach B- on iccup. He did so under the old system and he did so quite handily with 75% winratio or so and he did it more than once. So i don't see why this needs to be discussed tbh.
Regarding this discussion, I 100% agree with the above. The issue of players being a different skill level from their max is nothing new. For example, even though prophecy_ never hit D+ and showed some 50% winrate ICCup results with under 10 games as evidence, did anyone really think he was a true D in skill? Same issue here: laddering habits. Talent played on Fish; there are no restrictions for Fish players or their ranks, just ICCup rank. He does not violate the rules.
Lumix is my boy, but unfortunately he has hit B-. That violates the rules. Simple as that.
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On November 07 2015 08:08 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2015 08:06 Eywa- wrote:On November 07 2015 07:44 L_Master wrote:On November 07 2015 06:53 chrisolo wrote:On November 07 2015 05:10 ggrrg wrote:
Actually, you only need to know 6 matchups, 3 of them you should be able to play from both sides, but you should know the timings and strategies of both sides no matter which side you are on. You cannot just take a blind guess and go for a standard build for one specific matchup. But you can play this "matchup" just like any other one. I.e. as protoss you can simply go 1 Gate Core. Some of you guys take these leagues WAY to seriously. Just have some fun...Going against a random player? Don't be afraid, think to yourself that you have a high chance that this matchup is a weak one of the random player and even if it is his good one, he still is not as experienced as you are in this matchup. See those two are oil and water. They don't go together. 1 gate core just isn't a fun way to play PvZ for some of us. Just like some players don't think it's fun to cheese and others don't think its fun to play macro, standard builds. Random reduces the number of build options you have, to the extent you can be forced down entire paths you don't enjoy playing. 1) Is it good for your gameplay? Absolutely 2) Would I personally consider it a "fair" MU? Yes. Yes I would. (Caveat: if you're a race picker and get the MU you don't touch with a 10 foot pole) 3) Is it fun? Noooooooo! And that third line is the crux of the problem. Let me ask you this question in return: What is fun for you about playing random? I like playing random because it isn't as repetitive and I kind of make up my game plan as I go along, I like playing Protoss more because I like to win. This is what I expect most people's answer is, and if that is the case then playing random + shout still gives the same variety while eliminating the obnoxious aspect of playing random from the opponents end.
It's just as obnoxious to play against bunker rush as it is to play against random, but nobody's arguing for bunker rushes to be removed from the game.
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On November 07 2015 06:39 Eywa- wrote:
I still want the tier system to be explained if it please the organizer.
Old iccup system:
E D- D D+ C- C C+ B- B B+ A- A A+ O
New iccup system
E D C B A O
I never got C- on the old system, yet I am listed as C-... Talent (example I am taking because he seems like one of the better players/edge cases) C+ old system is considered C+...
The portion I want to have explained I guess is... Are we taking new system ranks when convenient and old system ranks when convenient? Because by the new iccup system, both Talent and I are considered to be the same rank (according to the ranks set for us in the OP) - by the old system ranks, I am not C-. Please explain.
Also, does anyone think it's unfair for LuMiX to play in this league? Is he better than all of the players in this league? We were discussing that on skype and we didn't really think so... Why is he being refused while other (just as good players) aren't? Is he just being used as an example to justify refusing edge cases?
Please clarify when you can.
I've already made this clear as day to you in Skype, but since you want to stir up drama here in the thread, I'll just make it clear again in public 
I like Lumix. He's a good guy and a good player.
This league has a MAX iCCup Rank cutoff of C+. This includes old iCCup and New iCCup. Yes, this does suck, but like Cele and Jealous said, there has to be a cutoff. I chose this cutoff and I'll take full responsibility for it. If I knew that the league had a bunch of interest in the upper ranks, I might not have had any cutoffs at all, but I like the position we're in right now and I think everyone has a decent C+ tier player. We'll see how it turns out, and maybe I'll eat my words, but this is the way it is going to be.
Let me make it absolutely clear to you that this actually has nothing to do with Lumix. In fact, I've already turned away several other players who probably are not even on Lumix's level as far as skill. They all reached B- as well. Anyway, I hope this is clear to you and I hope that you understand.
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On November 07 2015 10:18 Shimy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2015 06:39 Eywa- wrote:
I still want the tier system to be explained if it please the organizer.
Old iccup system:
E D- D D+ C- C C+ B- B B+ A- A A+ O
New iccup system
E D C B A O
I never got C- on the old system, yet I am listed as C-... Talent (example I am taking because he seems like one of the better players/edge cases) C+ old system is considered C+...
The portion I want to have explained I guess is... Are we taking new system ranks when convenient and old system ranks when convenient? Because by the new iccup system, both Talent and I are considered to be the same rank (according to the ranks set for us in the OP) - by the old system ranks, I am not C-. Please explain.
Also, does anyone think it's unfair for LuMiX to play in this league? Is he better than all of the players in this league? We were discussing that on skype and we didn't really think so... Why is he being refused while other (just as good players) aren't? Is he just being used as an example to justify refusing edge cases?
Please clarify when you can. I've already made this clear as day to you in Skype, but since you want to stir up drama here in the thread, I'll just make it clear again in public I like Lumix. He's a good guy and a good player. This league has a MAX iCCup Rank cutoff of C+. This includes old iCCup and New iCCup. Yes, this does suck, but like Cele and Jealous said, there has to be a cutoff. I chose this cutoff and I'll take full responsibility for it. If I knew that the league had a bunch of interest in the upper ranks, I might not have had any cutoffs at all, but I like the position we're in right now and I think everyone has a decent C+ tier player. We'll see how it turns out, and maybe I'll eat my words, but this is the way it is going to be. Let me make it absolutely clear to you that this actually has nothing to do with Lumix. In fact, I've already turned away several other players who probably are not even on Lumix's level as far as skill. They all reached B- as well. Anyway, I hope this is clear to you and I hope that you understand.
1) that is not at all what you said in skype
2) having the league based off of max iccup rank old and new requires players to not ladder in order to qualify. If I'm c- by new system, it means I can reach b- new system if I play enough games because the point gain doesn't change from c- to c+.
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Line ups are now in the thread for this week (11/7 - 11/13)!
Replays should be submitted to theamateurstarleague@gmail.com and you have through friday to play your match!
Good luck and have fun!
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On November 07 2015 12:28 Eywa- wrote:
2) having the league based off of max iccup rank old and new requires players to not ladder in order to qualify. .
This was true for a few players in the old D leagues with the old ladder as well, no change here.
On November 07 2015 12:28 Eywa- wrote:
If I'm c- by new system, it means I can reach b- new system if I play enough games because the point gain doesn't change from c- to c+.
This was true in the past as well, was just more difficult. People were hitting B- with 200-10 win/loss.
Either way, this is an argument AGAINST Lumix, not for him, because he never used the above method and he hit a winning rate B-, on the OLD ladder.
It's kinda pointless to argue further :\
On a more positive note, Good luck to everyone! Except DeSPA! ^-^;
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On November 07 2015 06:39 Eywa- wrote:
I still want the tier system to be explained if it please the organizer.
Old iccup system:
E D- D D+ C- C C+ B- B B+ A- A A+ O
New iccup system
E D C B A O
I never got C- on the old system, yet I am listed as C-... Talent (example I am taking because he seems like one of the better players/edge cases) C+ old system is considered C+...
The portion I want to have explained I guess is... Are we taking new system ranks when convenient and old system ranks when convenient? Because by the new iccup system, both Talent and I are considered to be the same rank (according to the ranks set for us in the OP) - by the old system ranks, I am not C-. Please explain.
Also, does anyone think it's unfair for LuMiX to play in this league? Is he better than all of the players in this league? We were discussing that on skype and we didn't really think so... Why is he being refused while other (just as good players) aren't? Is he just being used as an example to justify refusing edge cases?
Please clarify when you can.
First of all, as far as I know there has not been a single instance where a max rank has been chosen by the organizers because it is "convinient". Max rank has been defined as the max rank achieved in any season!
Now, this is a really difficult topic to talk about. It is really hard to judge, which players are too good to play and which ones fit right in the scope of the league. Fact is, there needs to be a cutoff for the players involved in order to avoid absurdly one-sided matches.
At the end of the day, there really isn't a certain way to judge people's skill. Just as an example: How do you compare a person that has played since the beginning of iccup and hit C+ in Season 10 against somebody who has hit C+ in season 30 but has been inactive ever since and somebody who has only hit C+ in seasons 35 and 36 and has played ~400 games in the past few months, which is an order of magnitude more than the previous guys in the same period? It is simply impossible to perfectly quantify a person's skill, since there are so many factors such as recent activity, max rank in the old iccup system, max rank in the new iccup system, activity on other servers (fish), the quality of players they have played.
When this league was conceived, it was supposed to be a low-level league (C- max or less). However, the new iccup system really screws up such a format. Then the league was expanded with a higher max rank cap. Additionally, a tiered match format was introduced in order to allow for more even matches! This league is attempting to make a competetive experience enjoyable to as many players as possible, while maintaining an even playing field for everybody. This in itself is a really hard (if not an impossible) task to do. I can assure you that there has been put quite a thought towards achieving these goals. Before announcing the format, it has been considered that it is not unfair towards any specific teams in the league (considering the different lineups), that it causes as few w/o's as possible, and that it allows for as many even games as possible.
Ultimately, there needs to be a cutoff somewhere. It is really hard to perfectly define such a cutoff, but I can assure you that it has not been decided on the basis of "just because I think so". Quite a bit of thought has been put towards the optimal format. Nevertheless, it is nigh impossible to do this perfectly, and there simply needs to be a cutoff somewhere.
+ Show Spoiler [ @eywa-, @chrisolo, @birdie, @jealous] +On November 07 2015 06:32 Eywa- wrote:
The whole discussion about random is really dumb. Playing random at just about any rank is a significant disadvantage. It is pretty much guaranteed that at least 2 of your races will be weaker than they could otherwise be.
Also, one of the biggest problems with people who random is that all amateur players have 1 build per match up and one build only. Random upsets that... To which I say GOOD! The best example I can think of is.. Who isn't tired of seeing forge fe in PvZ?
Let's say you're a protoss player, if you 1 base, you will almost certainly scout your opponent before you commit to any build. Nobody denies that being proficient with all 3 races is hard. The problem is that in far too many cases it puts your opponent behind enough that you do not need to be really proficient at all to win with some well-timed all-in even if executed poorly. Also, one of the biggest problems with people who random is that all amateur players have 1 build per match up and one build only. Random upsets that... To which I say GOOD! The best example I can think of is.. Who isn't tired of seeing forge fe in PvZ?
Let's say you're a protoss player, if you 1 base, you will almost certainly scout your opponent before you commit to any build. When was the last time you saw anything but a FFE from a semi-decent protoss in PvZ? I am sure you can give me some examples (I can think of a [very] few myself), but just consider how often such builds are used! (extremely rarely) Now think about how many of those 1 base PvZ builds are NOT 2-gate aggression (because 2-gate before core is an automatic loss in PvT [and normally in PvP as well]). Then you will realize that 1-base (non 2-gate) PvZ is a rarity for a reason. Such a build simply puts you behind against Z. AND now consider that even when P goes for such a build in PvZ, a major reason P does it is because P expects to have the advantage of surpise (which is absent against a random opponent, who expects a defensive build). You say that you are tired of seeing the same build over and over again. First of all, FFE allows for a lot of different PvZ builds: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/PVZBuildsAt the liquipedia page for PvZ 9/16 builds are derived from FFE. Your request to have P skip FFE in PvZ reduces the possible builds by over 50%(!), which actually results in the exact opposite of your wish to see a bigger variety of builds from the player going against random. @chrisolo First of all, I never meant to be offensive, but I feel like you may have got this feeling, since the first sentence of your statement feels to me like the verbal version of a middle finger. Saying that I have no clue about random because of what I said is to me the same as me saying that you have never understood the strategy aspect of RTS because of what you said. On November 07 2015 06:53 chrisolo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2015 05:10 ggrrg wrote:
Actually, you only need to know 6 matchups, 3 of them you should be able to play from both sides, but you should know the timings and strategies of both sides no matter which side you are on. […] But you have to keep in mind that you play each matchup much less than a set race. You play each matchup roughly 1/3 of your matches, whilst random player only play every matchup every 1/9 matches. Some more, but some even much less, as there less terrans out there in the D ranks. The argument that you got to play each matchup less than your opponent has no merit in a league where some people have played MP 1v1 a few hundred times (if at all) and some have played thousands upon thousands of games.
Random is just as legit as playing another matchup. Yes it plays differently, but so you should approach it. You cannot just take a blind guess and go for a standard build for one specific matchup. But you can play this "matchup" just like any other one. F.e. as protoss you can simply go 1 Gate Core. Yes this even works against Zerg. It was even standard at some point in history. Yes it is harder than standard play and most of Protoss won't play 1 Gate styles.
Claiming that P can just do a 1 base build in PvZ and have a fair chance is just plain absurd. Just take a look at the liquipedia PvZ page or at what (semi-)pros have played in the matchup over the last 10 years. Now factor in the fact that 1-gate core in the absurdly meager amount of high level PvZ it has been used, mainly tries to take advantage of surprise (which is impossible in a vR game) and you should see that it is simply not a viable build in PvZ. Saying that it used to be standard “at some point in history” has no merit when you factor in the truth that those times have been 10 or more years ago.
So you are uncomfortable with it. But guess what? Playing Zerg against 1 Base strategys is just as uncomfortable for the zerg, as most zerg do not have experience with it either.
Uncomfortable or not is not the point that matters. What matters is that one side knows what to expect while the other does not and is forced to guess. On November 07 2015 10:03 Birdie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2015 08:08 L_Master wrote:On November 07 2015 08:06 Eywa- wrote:On November 07 2015 07:44 L_Master wrote:On November 07 2015 06:53 chrisolo wrote:On November 07 2015 05:10 ggrrg wrote:
Actually, you only need to know 6 matchups, 3 of them you should be able to play from both sides, but you should know the timings and strategies of both sides no matter which side you are on. You cannot just take a blind guess and go for a standard build for one specific matchup. But you can play this "matchup" just like any other one. I.e. as protoss you can simply go 1 Gate Core. Some of you guys take these leagues WAY to seriously. Just have some fun...Going against a random player? Don't be afraid, think to yourself that you have a high chance that this matchup is a weak one of the random player and even if it is his good one, he still is not as experienced as you are in this matchup. See those two are oil and water. They don't go together. 1 gate core just isn't a fun way to play PvZ for some of us. Just like some players don't think it's fun to cheese and others don't think its fun to play macro, standard builds. Random reduces the number of build options you have, to the extent you can be forced down entire paths you don't enjoy playing. 1) Is it good for your gameplay? Absolutely 2) Would I personally consider it a "fair" MU? Yes. Yes I would. (Caveat: if you're a race picker and get the MU you don't touch with a 10 foot pole) 3) Is it fun? Noooooooo! And that third line is the crux of the problem. Let me ask you this question in return: What is fun for you about playing random? I like playing random because it isn't as repetitive and I kind of make up my game plan as I go along, I like playing Protoss more because I like to win. This is what I expect most people's answer is, and if that is the case then playing random + shout still gives the same variety while eliminating the obnoxious aspect of playing random from the opponents end. It's just as obnoxious to play against bunker rush as it is to play against random, but nobody's arguing for bunker rushes to be removed from the game. Random being obnoxious is not what matters. What matters is that is impossible to choose a viable build. In ZvT you can choose a build that lets you be somewhat safe against a bunker rush but this is not the same build that allow you to enter the mid-game in ZvP on even footing. In PvT you can go for a build that allows you to have a chance against a CC first and 2-fact (and even proxy 2-rax) but this build has nothing to do with a one that allows you to have any chance against 3-hatch hydra or 2-base muta or 3-hatch before pool. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Two common points that are being brought in favor of allowing random are: - Variety/Not being repetitive: the league allows you to choose your race every week and even choose specific matchups you want to play. Feel free to take advantage of this and choose a different race every week - Knowing all races and matchups being hard and putting the random player at a disadvantage anyway: Just because it is hard for you is by no means a reason to give the opponent a handicap. Choose a race and feel free to not mine for the first 30 sec of the game if you want to be at a disadvantage. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That being said, there is no reason to discuss this matter anymore in the thread. Feel free to PM me with an essay on the topic. The very least I can promise you is that I will respond to every argument you have.
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Bunny SlayerS vs Stealth Bunnies
4-2
 ( v ) LMaster <Fighting Spirit> sB.Roy
Shimy <New Heartbreak Ridge> sB.Passafist
 RedAxis <Shadowplay> sB.Empathy
Stardom[eMg] <Demian> sB.RulzBoooM
SiegesAddicted <Colosseum II> sB.Birdie
sGs.Yaqoob <Match Point> sB.Splax
Club Starcraft vs DeSPA
6-0
Melchsee <Fighting Spirit> Biolunar
crimson0011 <New Heartbreak Ridge> JXN(ITS N Not B) ( v )
tru]irish <Shadowplay> LTY
f10esQQ <Demian> Artanis
sGs.BaBo <Colosseum II> Art_Of_Turtle
( v ) Fazers[PaiN] <Match Point> Fishchei
WeMadeC vs Sexy Gladiators
5-1
zs-Adun <Fighting Spirit> PuBepoH
Master_soul <New Heartbreak Ridge> Dutch
CoughingHydra <Shadowplay> romarior
CrispyDrone <Demian> iCCup.JiN needs to confirm a race
Taehee[KaL] <Colosseum II> iwL-Hellscream
Kororo <Match Point> mmmbop[rage]
#TotallyNotFavoringMyOwnTeam
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no your not even writing em write! it's  Fischei xD
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On November 07 2015 22:10 Cele wrote:no your not even writing em write! it's Fischei xD
Fixed haha I was really tired xD
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My prediction is:
Bunny SlayerS vs Stealth Bunnies
4-2
( v ) LMaster <Fighting Spirit> sB.Roy
Shimy <New Heartbreak Ridge> sB.Passafist
RedAxis <Shadowplay> sB.Empathy
Stardom[eMg] <Demian> sB.RulzBoooM
SiegesAddicted <Colosseum II> sB.Birdie
sGs.Yaqoob <Match Point> sB.Splax
Club Starcraft vs DeSPA
2-4
Melchsee <Fighting Spirit> Biolunar
crimson0011 <New Heartbreak Ridge> JXB ( v )
tru]irish <Shadowplay> LTY
f10esQQ <Demian> Artanis
sGs.BaBo <Colosseum II> Art_Of_Turtle
( v ) Fazers[PaiN] <Match Point> Fischei
WeMadeC vs Sexy Gladiators
4-2
zs-Adun <Fighting Spirit> PuBepoH
Master_soul <New Heartbreak Ridge> Dutch
CoughingHydra <Shadowplay> romarior
CrispyDrone <Demian> iCCup.JiN
Taehee[KaL] <Colosseum II> iwL-Hellscream
Kororo <Match Point> mmmbop[rage]
hahaha GL
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 waiting for cast...
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EPT
