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TLADT24920 Posts
On July 28 2015 10:22 outscar wrote:
BigFan, still it's not explanation for closing my thread within 1 min. before anything like you said happened. I don't understand why everytime admins act like they see the future. Hell, I posted pictures&links because even 2pacalypse said he havent heard many of the maps in Cardinal's thread. I wanted to introduce those which made their way into pack. So, who's problem that we got 50 ladder maps in iCCup and 20+ non-ladder maps? How can you choose only 10 maps blindly? That poll should've helped to know which maps are popular, and we could've sorted top 10/20 of them to discuss properly. GL then with playing FS non-stop.
Outscar, I understand what you're saying. You put a lot of time and effort into the thread and felt it should've stayed opened longer or not closed in the first place. The problem is that the community is smaller than it used to be and with a poll of 71 options, we can easily get votes spread out. In other words, we can easily get each person voting for a different map and end up with a 1-1-1-1 etc... tie which doesn't say much.
Even if that wasn't the case, let's say we get one map getting 5 votes, the rest get anywhere between 4 votes to 0 votes, that doesn't tell us much either. If you look at the poll yellowsmile created, destination won the majority from the available map options despite the fact that he only include 4 map options in the whole poll. If you had ~7 maps to vote on (you make the decision based on stats, if they are unique like Outsider etc...) then the results are more useful for us. You can also ask for more feedback from the community and get a discussion going.
If you're still interested, I highly advise you to post in the map discussion thread because we are reading every post in there. As long as the post is concise and contains good information, you'll also get a good discussion going.
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Canada11607 Posts
My, my, my. Julia is not pleased, not pleased at all. What a surprise.
Destination is a classic bw map, awarded best map in 08-09. Map choice is a no-win scenario for tournament organizers in bw. Include any map other than Fighting Spirit and you will get complaints about maps being too weird/ imbalanced. Include Fighting Spirit and you will get complaints from all the people tired of Fighting Spirit. No matter what an bw tourney organizer includes, they will get flak from certain quarters. At some point the maps of the tournament are just part of the landscape to be taken into account for a strategy game. It is entirely impossible to include everyone's favourite map or exclude everyone's most hated map. It's not like Destination is some wonky map, played for half a season and then dropped, nor is it a crazy new map that no-one has played before.
1st poll: should scan be allowed to play - strange overwhelming yes., contrary to comments in threads.
2nd poll: destination? - strange similar percentage results of poll, contrary to usuall opinions about the map.
What exactly are you implying? What is strange about the percentages?
edit.
And dRaw has it right about foreign made maps. Short of the map-making community getting together and throwing their own tournament, I really don't think a bw tourney would ever have more than one community made map per tournament. Even low level tourneys (D ranks) need some sort of familiarity with the map pool, and it's simply easier to practice with established maps- with maybe one completely new one.
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The Ancient Mystic Society of No Scans.
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On July 28 2015 10:22 outscar wrote:
Yeah, this time Julia is right about those polls.
Well, some user made these polls not Teamliquid, but I agree, the public polls aren't a thing to base opinions on.
Aside from that, please do continue to work on maps on Liquipedia. Liquipedia and these forums are usually rather independent from each other and I'd be a pitty to lose a good editor, only because you dislike the moderators.
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Which Terrans other than scan will give you a hard time anyway? lol...
On Desti? You can start with any terran above d+ -_-
This map is among the most imbalanced maps ever created. Having a choice between Desti and Island maps, I'd still take islands. It's a badly designed map. I don't think you play either of the races discussed?
+ Show Spoiler +Tank range covers every exp from the previous exp on Desti. You can place tanks on higher ground in your main to cover your 3rd, which is behind a narrow ramp, making it effectively impossible to take out. From your natural, tanks can reach to two other exps and terrans frequently abuse that. Also when attacking, terrans do not need to enter your bases, they don't need to go down the ramps, they siege - take out exps, and the hard part of beating the bridges is a non-issue for the terran. Effectively the terran can go 5 bases without leaving his main(!), making the zerg play from the start a do-or-die strategy, since the terran will max out and take advantage of getting free kills from abusing tank placement. In the end the mineral advantage will be to terran favour, since you can't exchange units effectively vs that. The game may go on for an hour, but the zerg will lose. Due to the maps vertical narrow design, it is impossible to drop or harass the terran, which gives only one option - engage the terran head on, while you enter an exp, with your, let's be honest - mostly short range units, you get fired upon by tanks from the other exp that is close - but to get there you need to move through ramps and de-mine the ground under tank fire from a secure spot, so the mineral exchange is again so bad that you just lose the game. That's the reality of playing Destination on a normal level.
People will NOT practice those maps just because a random foreigner made them. They are NOT tested past the C rank, and they do not look balanced.
Maps made by the community map makers are far more balanced than korean maps which you think are balanced. These maps are simply well designed, well thought maps.
I don't see why high level players would have problems playing these maps.
+ Show Spoiler +I'd like to remind, as an important argument - some maps in korean leagues were made to support bad racial distributions, for example, if terrans or protoss fared badly because of Jaedong or Savior, the koreans added island maps and other creative developements, so you could watch poorer players win during the domination-era of one gamer.
I don't think you need a terran favourd map now. Or are islands in fact coming?
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in TLPD kor the Win ratio is 52% for terrans on the map Destination. That is not too bad i think. Also enough games were played, so we can rule out that the samplesize is too small. In TLPD international Destination also has a good record for zergs, Terran won only 48% or so, again enough games to make it not about the slkill of individual players.
How do you explain those stats, if you say Destination is such an autoloss zvt?
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cant play because i will be sleeping at that time....
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United Kingdom1749 Posts
Looking forward to playing this! Hopefully I'll lose fast enough to get commentating from the start ^^
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TLADT24920 Posts
On July 29 2015 04:47 Bakuryu wrote:
cant play because i will be sleeping at that time....
All I see are excuses! Just crush the competition so you can sleep earlier! 
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Scan is not going to participate this? It's closing up tomorrow (in my time it's already 31th), hurry!
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I've played Destination probably more times than 99% of you. It's a good map and very balanced imo. In Brood War, generally there is a cycle of slight imbalance where Z>P>T>Z. Some maps skew the slight imbalance into a larger imbalance but this isn't one of them.
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Every terran wants to play either on Desti or Longinus. Doesn't take a lot of thinking to figure out why.
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On July 31 2015 11:30 13Julia wrote:
Every terran wants to play either on Desti or Longinus. Doesn't take a lot of thinking to figure out why.
Go watch some ZvT vods of Jaedong or other top Zergs Pre-SC2 when Destination was played a ton and learn how to properly play the match up on Destination instead of whining about it. Protoss has to learn how to wall and approach PvZ differently on nearly every map. I don't want to hear you complain about learning how to approach a different map ZvT.
Personally, I think it's pretty easy to play ZvT desti with all the ramps. As long as you position sunks right (or get lurkers quickly) you'll survive any early bio aggression (this is the most dangerous part of the game on Destination). After that, Lurkers can hold the natural and third ramps easy as hell and Mutas wreck bio on the ramps as well. Even the naturals and open main base layout are setup for Mutas to wreck face. Play it right and survive early aggression and getting to hive/defiler tech should be a breeze.
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On July 31 2015 10:18 G5 wrote:
I've played Destination probably more times than 99% of you. It's a good map and very balanced imo. In Brood War, generally there is a cycle of slight imbalance where Z>P>T>Z. Some maps skew the slight imbalance into a larger imbalance but this isn't one of them.
G5 just likes Destination because he bulldogged on it and beat Boxer.
Just kidding, you're alright. 
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I agree with Julia - on destitnation is much easier for terran vs zerg than on Paranoid Android or many others maps. Especially when terran likes to camp. From my experience there ar only two maps where i could win with better players, only because of the map. TvZ like i said Destination, and TvP on Bloody Ridge. Maps of the campers 
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Go watch some ZvT vods of Jaedong or other top Zergs Pre-SC2 when Destination was played a ton and learn how to properly play the match up on Destination instead of whining about it. Protoss has to learn how to wall and approach PvZ differently on nearly every map. I don't want to hear you complain about learning how to approach a different map ZvT.
Personally, I think it's pretty easy to play ZvT desti with all the ramps. As long as you position sunks right (or get lurkers quickly) you'll survive any early bio aggression (this is the most dangerous part of the game on Destination). After that, Lurkers can hold the natural and third ramps easy as hell and Mutas wreck bio on the ramps as well. Even the naturals and open main base layout are setup for Mutas to wreck face. Play it right and survive early aggression and getting to hive/defiler tech should be a breeze.
I bet a dominant Jaedong vs lame terrans is the best benchmark for balance. Especially when he needs to execute a 2 base muta all-in vs standard terran just to survive on that map. Take Flash and Desti, and suddenl;y the balance turns again. They are not a good benchmark. There were players who lost pvz on Paradoxx in proleague, does that mean it's balanced? No, It just means they should never play starcraft again.
Personally you may think whatever you want about zvt, but as I see it, you just don't play the game or zvt. Theory vs practice, practice always wins vs "I think cows can fly". You think about it, I play it.
Sorry man, but you just don't understand what you talk about here, unless you are willing to put it into practice, it's pointless for me to even discuss it. If they really want to, they can put Longinus into the map pool too, I just tried to point out the obvious that most players from d+ level on icc know - these two are maps of choice for terrans. For a good reason.
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EPT
