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On July 24 2013 06:00 L_Master wrote:
I will note that I am seriously considering a much stricter rule on those of us, including myself, that can probably hit C-. We have seen a dramatic drop off in true D's or D- players in this league...and I think that is in part because it has become more of a D+/C- league.
I have not made a decision yet, but there may be limited or zero eligibility for players that have hit C-/shown results consistent with being able to hit C-.
I think this is probably the biggest issue facing this season. On the one hand this is a D-Ranks league so we want d-level players having the chance to play each other in a fair competitive environment, but on the other hand a large core of the players who participated in previous seasons are clearly reaching the blur of d+/c- . As I see it we can either attempt something like Pebble suggested;
On July 24 2013 18:51 pebble444 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
A nice thing i saw going on in the C ranks teamleague, and works well As far as i know, is to have 2 notable D+/C- players for each team. That raises the overall standard while keeping the base D.
I have another idea, tell me what you people think about it.
To implement, based on Birdie' s ranking system, that players who want to play in the week, play each other based on their ranking. The objective is to match people with actual same skill level. In other words, if a player is ranked #3 from on team, he will play the top #rank from the other team, and so on until the end.
As for maps, they could be organized the first week by having every top/ second/third/fourth/fifth/sixt rank maps decided, and then going down in a loop
Example #1 week Fs top, #2 week FS second, etc.
This idea is based around the swiss system of matching people to play
The downside is this would kinda break the sporting "lineups and i don' t know who i will be facing until LU are out" . With this system you are much more likely to know who is playing.
The upside is it would allow people to play more against a similar rank to theirs. Obviously Birdie would have to make an August D ranking system, like the one he did past september. I was studying that one and i could see similar players in similar spots.
On another note, i would really like ACE matches to be again
which has its own inherent problems, or we need to consider 3 other solutions:
1. Make two leagues; essentially the current one, and then something like a newcomers league for E to say D (1500) level players, although this is an inelegant solution and the question would be if we could find enough participants to populate the lower league.
2. Limit the amount of matches any player can play, say 2 every 4weeks (basically forcing a team to use its entire roster, has many other inherent problems) in order to let weaker players participate more.
3. Require everyone who wants to play this season to play 30-40 ladder games to get a better judgment of current skill levels. (how reliable is laddering, will this just drive off players who don't have the motivation or time to ladder this much)
On a completely different note, I'd seriously like you to reconsider the following two maps in the map pool;
815 III - This was an interesting map for Progamers, but it's really going to be frustrating in the extreme for lower level players because no normal builds work on this map. While I know we like to encourage cool cheeses and varied play, I just think this map will produce shit games at our level.
Pamir Plateu - has serious positional imbalances in terms of walling and especially natural gas placement, unless these are fixed I think this map should ideally be replaced (it's not that special of a map otherwise)
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Just my oppinion(Which might be a bit bias,due to me being one of the players concerned):
Kicking (or lowering the numbers) of the High D+/Low C- players,will lower the player base of the league ALOT.
If kicking happens,just by memory you kick:Me/Arca/Icedraco/Prophecy(he says he is D,but probably could hold C-),Birdie(bad but hit C-),DNH(High D+ at least),RedAxis(15-3 high D+ last season,nuff said),Yourself,Kaigreene(has hit C-(and i think C as well on his old account [ UED_ReZuya] ),Click(haven't played her in a long time,but people say she's good),RulZbooom(asuming he wants to play,not sure) and many more im forgetting.Replacing them with low level players is hard,because many of them lack the dedication and will not show regulary.Most of the players from the level you want to get in( D-/D) probably don't use TL either.
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815 III !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YES THE HALF RAMPS ARE BACK! + Desti
The map pool is so much bigger and better :D
Squishy returning to DeSPA!
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Thanks for the discussion guys, that is exactly what I am looking for both to see general opinion and to hear some of the thoughts surrounding the issues and get exposed to the various possibilities I haven't though of.
On a completely different note, I'd seriously like you to reconsider the following two maps in the map pool;
815 III - This was an interesting map for Progamers, but it's really going to be frustrating in the extreme for lower level players because no normal builds work on this map. While I know we like to encourage cool cheeses and varied play, I just think this map will produce shit games at our level.
Pamir Plateu - has serious positional imbalances in terms of walling and especially natural gas placement, unless these are fixed I think this map should ideally be replaced (it's not that special of a map otherwise)
On 815 - Probably it will start in the map pool, but I very well might cycle it out after a third or half of the season for more variety or if games are complete garbage or something. That said, I don't believe it is THAT hard to do come up with a different build, especially if you take 10 minutes to watch a SOSPA game or two. Yes, it's a bit much for the D-/D type guys...but they wouldn't need to be sent out on a map like this.
On Pamir - I thought those were removed with the updates version (especially whacked out nat gases). If not, then yea I will definitely scrap Pamir and replace it with something else.
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Honestly, I think the biggest issue atm with trying to have a league that D-/D guys are capable of playing in without getting 100% smashed is that there simply isn't enough player traffic. D-/D guys are either scared off atm, or just aren't active on TL. Which is why the format will probably be only lightly changed, if at all, in the end.
If every team had 5+ D-/D guys it would be alot more realistic.
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I really need to get apart of this. I need a team! xD
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Basically everyone on TAKK can hit c-, including Stardom and I. If we do stricter standards there goes basically an entire team! On a unrelated note, Stardom is going to be playing zerg from now on afaik.
edit: Really like that 815 is in the map pool. Variety in map style is always good. 
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Why not just call it the c- league and organize a smaller league for real d/d-s
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On July 25 2013 03:47 toastt wrote:
I really need to get apart of this. I need a team! xD
Just sign up in the thread as a free agent with:
ICCup ID:
Race:
Max rank:
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
Looking like Sun Khan will return with its previous lineup
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oJGBl5i.png)
prepare yourselves....
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On July 25 2013 04:28 rauk wrote:
Why not just call it the c- league and organize a smaller league for real d/d-s
I'm actually considering this as well.
Basically, the problem to me is that this is supposed to be a D Ranks league, and in reality its a heavily yellow "capable" league. Which isn't the end of the world by itself...but when it gets to the point that almost no D-/D players can signup, or get fielded...we have a problem.
EDIT: The other thing I am thinking about is a true D league (D+ MAX rank), and then a yellow league (C-/C), with some form of integration. I.e. Courage, SB both have yellow teams already, and TAKK could be a yellow team. So each teamh as a "yellow" and "red" team., but sharing same skype or w/e for communication practice. The leagues would be seperate, but could possibly culminate in some sort of Grand Final where its 3 reds/3 yellows + ace from the combined team, to encourage C-/C guys to not just totally ignore newer players (some think that is a concern)
EDIT2: As to the question of "why change something that has worked fine in the past", my thoughts are this:
A) The league isn't doing what it was intended to do. There are a VERY small number of D players, and almost no D-, and when S1 happened it was at least 50% players D-/D. The bottom line is it has reached the point where if those players show up they get blown out of the water or often cant even get fielded because there are too many other strong players. This to me IS a problem.
B) The league is stagnating a bit and growing smaller each season, which isn't ideal.
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On July 24 2013 20:30 ninini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 06:00 L_Master wrote:
I will note that I am seriously considering a much stricter rule on those of us, including myself, that can probably hit C-. We have seen a dramatic drop off in true D's or D- players in this league...and I think that is in part because it has become more of a D+/C- league.
I have not made a decision yet, but there may be limited or zero eligibility for players that have hit C-/shown results consistent with being able to hit C-. It's true that the overall skill has risen, but it's hard to tell if someone have actually passed the strong D+ mark yet. I believe that if you can climb to C- fairly steadily, and reach C in a reasonable amount of games, you shouldn't be playing here. I don't know anyone who actually would fall in this category though, by recent results atleast. I think it's pretty obvious who the strongest players in the league are, but these players are so close in skill that it's hard to say that some of them are too good, if you at the same time say that some of them are ok. That's the big issue here. If you mention player A, you might as well mention player B, and then player C, and then you end up with a list of 20 players, where there's a distinct difference in skill between the top and bottom player, but no distinct border inbetween. I think max rank C- is a good border, ie if you hit C you're out, but some ppl might want to put the border lower than that. There's also the issue of most players not laddering enough to gauge their max rank. http://malcolmsharpe.github.io/iccup-ratings/html/leaderboard.htmlThis page gives a better estimation of the rank, as it also considers prior seasons on iccup, and I believe it also estimates the rank of your opponent. It's only been around for the past 2-3 seasons so it's definately lacking info for many players. Here's the top 20~ ranked players, out of the player pool from DRTL4. I also added L3gendary for reference. The more games, the more accurate it is. + Show Spoiler [D ranks iccup ranking] +
(name - games - ranking)
padthaispecial 169 1096 (aka Rauk)
L3gendary 155 2366
sGs.Lmaster 21 2492
mG.arb 49 2643
aeghrur 14 2828
ImAtTheBeach 75 2950
sB.Birdie 157 2983
Rlentless 52 3125
prophecy_ 9 3136
Miss.Click.. 76 3258
mSj[Holy] 11 3345
sGs.BaBo 118 3433
NewJetCity 33 3438
CityShuffle 10 3564
SniperTerran 9 3580
Mellial 49 3766
sGs.Gorg 33 3922
cowboyspc94 8 3981
Maciej 11 4118
mSj[naxel] 100 4289
Arca(Crema) 29 4510
[BB]KaiGreene 15 4577
And here's a number of additional players who might belong to the top part of that list, if given enough games.
KingGeedorah unranked
sGs.DNH 4 5871
Sentenal 2 7391
RedAxis 2 11269
dazed_spy unranked
It's nice to see that Rauk (who have left the league) is the only player on the wrong side of L3gendary. There's a lack of games for most of the players up there though, so a few of the players might pass him if you add 50 games to their list. I think it would be interesting to gauge the size of the group of D rank players who have previously chosen not to participate because of the skill levels. I know that there are players like that, because I've seen this being brought up before. I just don't know how many they are. If there's plenty of them, I think having a stricter rank policy would be justified.
i dont understand, lower the rating the higher chance of being over the league requirements? or the closer to L3gendary?
if thats the case im quite shocked about myself truthfully :x
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Can someone please elaborate how the ICCUP ranking works that ninini posted?
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On July 25 2013 05:55 ImAtTheBeacH wrote:
Can someone please elaborate how the ICCUP ranking works that ninini posted?
It uses TrueSkill. Basically, you're ranked into a level, with a higher level being better. Inside that level you have a u and an m, with the u being your "skill" and the m being the deviation, the amount it's unsure about your skill. +/- basically. Higher deviation means you've played fewer games so it's not sure about your true skill, and is estimating. The more games you win, vs the better players, the higher level you'll be in.
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On July 25 2013 05:55 ImAtTheBeacH wrote:
Can someone please elaborate how the ICCUP ranking works that ninini posted?
First number is total number of games played, 2nd is some kind of points, maybe an average of whoever you've playeds rankings etc etc.
L3gendary is what id assume as the only D rank player(besides rauk) to move up in leagues or step down whatever, and anyone over him would obviously be considered above the thresh hold, and the closer you are to him the closer you are to being borderline unable to play in the league
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On July 25 2013 05:55 ImAtTheBeacH wrote:
Can someone please elaborate how the ICCUP ranking works that ninini posted?
Learn to read? 
(name - games - ranking)
padthaispecial 169 1096 (aka Rauk)
L3gendary 155 2366
sGs.Lmaster 21 2492
mG.arb 49 2643
aeghrur 14 2828
Basically what this says is that rauk, lmaster and mg.arb were the top 3 ranked players in DRTL4, if you're going by their laddering results on iccup. L3gendary is thrown in there as an example of a low C player.
The first number is how many games they've laddered on iccup since this ranking was implemented, and ranking is how the program ranks the player compared to all players on iccup.
Anyway, the less amount of games, the less accurate it is. It's much easier to rise fast on this ranking system, compared to the regular iccup system if you have a good run, but if you play maybe 70 games it should even out.
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On July 25 2013 06:13 ninini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 05:55 ImAtTheBeacH wrote:
Can someone please elaborate how the ICCUP ranking works that ninini posted? Learn to read? Show nested quote +
(name - games - ranking)
padthaispecial 169 1096 (aka Rauk)
L3gendary 155 2366
sGs.Lmaster 21 2492
mG.arb 49 2643
aeghrur 14 2828
Basically what this says is that rauk, lmaster and mg.arb were the top 3 ranked players in DRTL4, if you're going by their laddering results on iccup. L3gendary is thrown in there as an example of a low C player. The first number is how many games they've laddered on iccup since this ranking was implemented, and ranking is how the program ranks the player compared to all players on iccup. Anyway, the less amount of games, the less accurate it is. It's much easier to rise fast on this ranking system, compared to the regular iccup system if you have a good run, but if you play maybe 70 games it should even out.
ladder hero, always lose in leagues
np 
I would like to sign up again though, i think this time as a free agent maybe.
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On July 25 2013 06:13 ninini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 05:55 ImAtTheBeacH wrote:
Can someone please elaborate how the ICCUP ranking works that ninini posted? Learn to read? Show nested quote +
(name - games - ranking)
padthaispecial 169 1096 (aka Rauk)
L3gendary 155 2366
sGs.Lmaster 21 2492
mG.arb 49 2643
aeghrur 14 2828
Basically what this says is that r auk, lmaster and mg.arb were the top 3 ranked players in DRTL4, if you're going by their laddering results on iccup. L3gendary is thrown in there as an example of a low C player. The first number is how many games they've laddered on iccup since this ranking was implemented, and ranking is how the program ranks the player compared to all players on iccup. Anyway, the less amount of games, the less accurate it is. It's much easier to rise fast on this ranking system, compared to the regular iccup system if you have a good run, but if you play maybe 70 games it should even out.
Did not expect that, given my 12-9 record. Guess I played strong opponents.
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On July 25 2013 06:21 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 06:13 ninini wrote:On July 25 2013 05:55 ImAtTheBeacH wrote:
Can someone please elaborate how the ICCUP ranking works that ninini posted? Learn to read?
(name - games - ranking)
padthaispecial 169 1096 (aka Rauk)
L3gendary 155 2366
sGs.Lmaster 21 2492
mG.arb 49 2643
aeghrur 14 2828
Basically what this says is that rauk, lmaster and mg.arb were the top 3 ranked players in DRTL4, if you're going by their laddering results on iccup. L3gendary is thrown in there as an example of a low C player. The first number is how many games they've laddered on iccup since this ranking was implemented, and ranking is how the program ranks the player compared to all players on iccup. Anyway, the less amount of games, the less accurate it is. It's much easier to rise fast on this ranking system, compared to the regular iccup system if you have a good run, but if you play maybe 70 games it should even out. ladder hero, always lose in leagues np I would like to sign up again though, i think this time as a free agent maybe.
We could always use another strong Terran. arb to TAKK?
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EPT
