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On January 19 2013 09:29 Kalk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 08:38 SlowBullets wrote:
Attitude like that is why you'll never get out of D+. Good luck to your starcraft-related future endeavors. That is the second time, you telling me that i wont get out of d+. The problem is that I dont get why you are telling me this. And what has my attitude to do with my low apm, bad decision making, lack of knowledge of build orders and a lot more problems i am facing if I play bw? Its not about me being a d/d+ player in a d/d+ tournament. I think thats fine. @arb sorry that i mixed you up with jealous and kazehydra. You sound all the same for me: Hitting c- doesnt mean you are c-. This is hard to understand for me. What was the reason again? A big mistake in the Matrix? I hit the d+ ranks for a few times but never beat more than one d+ player in a season, nevertheless I would never say I am not a d+ player.Again, if you want to play a tournament with all your friends of the DRTL, thats fine for me. (I appreciate the hard work of L_Master and everybody else who is organising stuff for players aside the gosu players). Just dont call it a d ranks tournament and whine about your own c- status.
You even answered your own question in your post.
Thats what it means, if you can hit C- a few times and can't beat a single C- player, you arent C-.
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On January 19 2013 09:29 Kalk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 08:38 SlowBullets wrote:
Attitude like that is why you'll never get out of D+. Good luck to your starcraft-related future endeavors. That is the second time, you telling me that i wont get out of d+. The problem is that I dont get why you are telling me this. And what has my attitude to do with my low apm, bad decision making, lack of knowledge of build orders and a lot more problems i am facing if I play bw? Its not about me being a d/d+ player in a d/d+ tournament. I think thats fine. @arb sorry that i mixed you up with jealous and kazehydra. You sound all the same for me: Hitting c- doesnt mean you are c-. This is hard to understand for me. What was the reason again? A big mistake in the Matrix? I hit the d+ ranks for a few times but never beat more than one d+ player in a season, nevertheless I would never say I am not a d+ player. Again, if you want to play a tournament with all your friends of the DRTL, thats fine for me. (I appreciate the hard work of L_Master and everybody else who is organising stuff for players aside the gosu players). Just dont call it a d ranks tournament and whine about your own c- status.
I don't think you realize how bad the iCCup ranking system is. Someone who can consistently beat players who can consistently place at C- would be a C- player, but it's very easy to get yourself placed at C- without being able to consistently beat C- players. This is because the iCCup ranking system is bad; allowing edge players is a way of getting around the flaws in the ranking system.
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On January 19 2013 09:40 SlowBullets wrote:Yeah because you constantly care about other people's ranks to the point you sound like a whiny b*tch. Umm duhh? Who cares? Why not focus on getting better to beat said players.... I guess make your own D rank tourney where absolutely no C- (not even people who touched it can join) allowed so you can play in your fantasy D leagues forever! Instead of improving...wouldn't that be nice? lol  + Show Spoiler +
Any more arguing with you is like trying to talk to a brick wall, aka you won't get the message.
Maybe one day you will, but until then you can continue to be stubborn. Trust me though, things aren't as hard as you think.
I'm not even playing in this league and I think that said players should be allowed in this league (it is fair, and not like where some random c-/c user decided to register out of nowhere). They IMPROVED to get to where they are. But does that mean they can maintain C- ranks at a constant rate? Regardless, with hard work they deserve to play.
The ICCup D Ranks Holiday Tour was made exactly on this premise, got smurfed to shit by people like bm)burbon, and they still didn't win despite being "actual" c-/c players, LOL.
~Kalk, the reason that more leniency is given to this barrier than what you give is due to the imperfections of the system. If ICCup had a proper Elo ranking system underneath the current point/letter divisions, I would wholeheartedly accept your argument. However, because of the fact that Player Y can dodge Koreans and do 10/15 gate on Longinus PvT to get to C- with a nasty record (exaggeration, of course, but carries truth regardless), does not mean that the same player would be even solid D+ if he played a more balanced distribution of players. The reason for this is that beating a D rank player would has stats of 10-30 and beating a D rank player who has stats 8-0 gives you the same amount of points.
Therefore, all ranks are more like estimates of skill rather than concrete "C- max is better than D+ max, D+ is better than D." If this were so, I don't think you would have by your own words ever reached D+, and you might be here complaining about how D+ players are allowed to play in the same tournament as D players, because then that would be the divide that would appear impassable. Does it not defy your logic that these C- high players lose multiple games to D/D+ players in DRTL/DRATL/DRIT??
This will be my last post on the subject because at this point it feels like I am feeding a troll.
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The fact is rank doesn' t mean Shit. It is the nature of Tournaments to meet players better than you. There would be no sense otherwise. If anything You should be happier than them cause for you it will be a challange. And also some players perform better in single Tournaments than Team-Tournaments and viceversa. Dear has the same possibilities as Flash, and even with them having an extremely high difference of skill while being in the same fields Dear beat Flash.
You have to consider all aspects of players not only ranks.
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Lets end this discussion about the flaw in the iCCup ranking system and whether or not formerly C- ranked players are really considered C- or D+. If he wants to complain, then he has the right to leave the tournament. If he wants to get better, he can, by all means, practice, maybe even with the people he considers C-.
With that said, lets end this discussion.
Anyways, good luck BaBo, MoreAndMore, and L_Master, I'm going to BBS all of you.
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On January 19 2013 11:53 SynC[gm] wrote:
Lets end this discussion about the flaw in the iCCup ranking system and whether or not formerly C- ranked players are really considered C- or D+. If he wants to complain, then he has the right to leave the tournament. If he wants to get better, he can, by all means, practice, maybe even with the people he considers C-.
With that said, lets end this discussion.
Anyways, good luck BaBo, MoreAndMore, and L_Master, I'm going to BBS all of you.
![[image loading]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pG1U25luMOA/0.jpg)
The Tempest is coming...
I'm practicing my PvZ HARD. I'll be disappointed if I get cheesed again *cough* 
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On January 19 2013 08:25 Kalk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 08:12 arb wrote:On January 19 2013 07:57 Kalk wrote:On January 19 2013 07:39 KazeHydra wrote:On January 19 2013 07:26 Kalk wrote:On January 18 2013 12:43 L_Master wrote:
This is largely true, and I do agree people "whine" about this way to much.
Dont call it a d/d+ tournament and there is no reason to "whine". Just call it the DRTL-family individual tournament. You want to play vs your beloved people from this league and in fact nobody of you cares about the real rank. Is it so hard for you to accept that top D+ players can graze C- at times? Yes it is. They arent top d+ players if they hit c-. They are bottom c- players. It isnt that hard. You should just not talk, cause you don't know what you're talking about. Look through some posts, Babo and I have both explained what "being C- is"(considering im pretty sure we're the highest former ranked players?) cause being able to hit C- doesn't make you C-. I have read your posts. You are talking about the 33% winrate. First of all that doesnt explain why people with a 21-10 and something like 20-9 stats are allowed to play. And second, why are you all mad about hitting c-. It sounds like you are ashamed of it. Congratulations to your improvement since the first d rank leagues. But now it is time to move on and try your luck in the c rank tournaments.
Okay. I will break this down for you:
First of all that doesnt explain why people with a 21-10 and something like 20-9 stats are allowed to play.
First off, I could take a 50 apm player and get him those stats if I taught him how to micro 6 lings off a 4 pool. However, nobody would consider this guy to be a C- player and he could only achieve such a rank because it's ladder. In a tournament he would be D-.
Second. Match history. If you think this guy is the same "rank" or "skill as this guy, you would be wrong. You would also be an idiot. Anyone that is C rank could easily win almost every game against guys ranked D-/D. This, in theory, allows them to rank up infinitely. Whereas to get to B-, you have to win with some regularity against C+ players. A totally different situation.
Third, though related to second, is hosting ability. Those who cannot host will always have harder matches with greater percentages of smurfs because as you climb in skill the amount of fucks given by players increases and more have taken the time to forward their ports. Therefore, joining a game is more likely to be a player at D passing by, versus hosting where you are more likely to get people at that skill joining.
Yes it is. They arent top d+ players if they hit c-. They are bottom c- players. It isnt that hard.
You are "wrong". Wrong relative to the world anyway. This is like you calling green what everyone else calls red. Maybe to you it's green...but anyone else that hears you say that is going to look at you like you had some funny mushrooms for breakfast. You're using a different definition from everyone else. The accepted community definition is a person is C- once they can hold that C- rank playing against other C- players.
You can call it however you want, just understand no one else is using the same definition as you. This is also why when I say that this is a tour of D Ranks players, it IS a tour for D ranks players. This is how me, and the community, define it.
I'll actually add one more piece to this:
I hit the d+ ranks for a few times but never beat more than one d+ player in a season, nevertheless I would neversay I am not a d+ player.
This is the argument from choice of words. People talk of "hitting" D+. They also talk of "being" D+. Hitting D+ is obvious, it means you got there. "Being", however, implies a continuity. It suggests it's a state in which you reside. The player that plays one game and immediately falls from that rank does not exist primarily within that rank, and it doesn't make sense to describe them as being the higher rank if they cannot stay there.
in fact nobody of you cares about the real rank.
I beg to differ, and don't appreciated your accusation. I have already banned several people from this tour and told several other that they are not eligible to play....and not just blatantly overranked players.
Of course, all of this stems from the fact that ICCup's ranking system is pretty terrible as a measure of skill. It's fine for a ladder points system but it's a weak measure of skill. This is exactly WHY we have some level of subjective decision making in the process, and why I, or whoever happens to be, the organizer, hold final say on the matter.
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Hey is switching MU allowed now? i wanted to switch to P only , (was signed as P with TvT ) - nobody wants to play TvT on iccup..... only gosu koreans -.-
It will not affect my group at all cause only P's and Z there
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On January 19 2013 15:53 George_the_man wrote:
Hey is switching MU allowed now? i wanted to switch to P only , (was signed as P with TvT ) - nobody wants to play TvT on iccup..... only gosu koreans -.-
It will not affect my group at all cause only P's and Z there
Yes, as long as you're not changing what people expected for groups that is okay.
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Jesus,kalk for god's sake please stop whining.BaBo(Jealous) explained the situation of players like Me(i would concider myself a high D+ player,who has hit C-),arb and BaBo himself.We are not C- players,we just practiced alot to improve and hit that bloody rank.You will be better of practicing trying to beat us and the other "C-" players,instead of whining.
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On January 19 2013 16:09 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 15:53 George_the_man wrote:
Hey is switching MU allowed now? i wanted to switch to P only , (was signed as P with TvT ) - nobody wants to play TvT on iccup..... only gosu koreans -.-
It will not affect my group at all cause only P's and Z there
Yes, as long as you're not changing what people expected for groups that is okay.
Ok cool, so just to clarify im only P in this tournament
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Oh my god, I think I got it. Thank you so much everybody for the numerous explanations!
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SUGGESTION FOR GROUP STAGES/WALKOVERS:
If there are more W/O than subs, instead of giving BYEs, why not just do 3-man tie-breaker round robin style groups? Example:
Player A > Player B
Player B > Player C
Player C < Player A
Player A qualifies 2-0, Player B qualified 1-1, Player C eliminated 0-2. OR...
Player A > Player B
Player B > Player C
Player C > Player A
Replay all matches until the first scenario achieved.
Whaddya think?
Poll: Round Robin BYE Groups?N (5) 56% Y (2) 22% IDC (2) 22% 9 total votes Your vote: Round Robin BYE Groups? (Vote): Y
(Vote): N
(Vote): IDC
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Round robin bye groups would take much time,screwing up on us Central and Eastern europeans,but the suggestion is good.
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Canada4481 Posts
I think the suggestion would have been better taken if it wasn't 2hrs before start.
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On January 20 2013 02:54 Nagisama wrote:
I think the suggestion would have been better taken if it wasn't 2hrs before start.
I agree. It's going to be a real hassle to explain a sudden (possible) change in plans to people. If people instead follow the original plan and then leave, you won't really be able to fault them for not doing it this way.
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If everyone in the group agrees you're welcome to do round robin (provided one member didn't show). If one or more disagree it goes to the default format.
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But L_Master is gonna be there to determine subs and W/O anyways, what makes it any more complicated than saying "go play him" lol.
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Well, there's always the possibility that the scenario from Shine, EffOrt, and go.go's group is repeated, where the tiebreakers go on for several hours because of A > B, B > C, C > A. I don't think many people want/can play several hours for something like that, and it'd be unfair for someone that can't play for a long time to be possibly be forced to forfeit despite showing up.
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Is there any period of time we're required to wait before taking walkover?
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EPT
