EPT[SPL] Woongjin Stars vs KT Rolster - Page 67
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pyrogenetix
United Arab Emirates5091 Posts
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WaterTower
France138 Posts
-Midgame when Flash was attacking the 10 o clock. SK had enough to fend off the attack even though he saw that Flash sent his whole army. He could have attacked Flash main with 4-5 mutas and split off the rest to defend that base. -Late game mech switch as mentioned. SK had well enough time for hive tech and defilers since there would be a lull in attacks from flash. I have never seen a zerg go hive tech so late and SK should have seen that Flash wasnt even making science vessels to counter defilers. -Poor control of hydras. The lurker trick was good, but SK lost 4-5 hydras to a single mine at one point. Definitely not a mistake to make against the best player in the world. | ||
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TrainSamurai
339 Posts
On February 26 2012 16:52 WaterTower wrote: I agree with the emperorearth writeup for the most part, but the main point is, SK didnt do what was best given the scouting information. He should of seen the mech switch, and immediately go hive tech instead of investing in more static defense. Several other mistakes, showing that SK coulda, shoulda, woulda... -Midgame when Flash was attacking the 10 o clock. SK had enough to fend off the attack even though he saw that Flash sent his whole army. He could have attacked Flash main with 4-5 mutas and split off the rest to defend that base. -Late game mech switch as mentioned. SK had well enough time for hive tech and defilers since there would be a lull in attacks from flash. I have never seen a zerg go hive tech so late and SK should have seen that Flash wasnt even making science vessels to counter defilers. -Poor control of hydras. The lurker trick was good, but SK lost 4-5 hydras to a single mine at one point. Definitely not a mistake to make against the best player in the world. In ZvT the more important resource is gas not minerals. The reason Zergs always go for a third is so that they can acquire the third gas that allows them to smoothly transition into late game, Mutas are meant to buy time/kill terran if provided the opportunity. If SK had recklessly attacked his muta would have been wiped out (notice how JD charges into Flashes base despite having a few "golden" opportunities), lose his third and he would be even more behind because of his already crappy gas situation. Thats why JvF is anti climatic because they're always just just fighting over JD's third gas and flash usually wins, JD could have easily dragged out the situation in some of those cases but he knows that without the third gas he is screwed. Tbh I don't even know what he should have done, maybe use just enough drones to delay the bunker and get his sunkens asap? | ||
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b0lt
United States790 Posts
On February 26 2012 16:52 WaterTower wrote: I agree with the emperorearth writeup for the most part, but the main point is, SK didnt do what was best given the scouting information. He should of seen the mech switch, and immediately go hive tech instead of investing in more static defense. Several other mistakes, showing that SK coulda, shoulda, woulda... -Midgame when Flash was attacking the 10 o clock. SK had enough to fend off the attack even though he saw that Flash sent his whole army. He could have attacked Flash main with 4-5 mutas and split off the rest to defend that base. 4 mutas aren't going to do anything to a terran that has more than 2 barracks | ||
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
On February 26 2012 19:26 TrainSamurai wrote: In ZvT the more important resource is gas not minerals. The reason Zergs always go for a third is so that they can acquire the third gas that allows them to smoothly transition into late game, Mutas are meant to buy time/kill terran if provided the opportunity. If SK had recklessly attacked his muta would have been wiped out (notice how JD charges into Flashes base despite having a few "golden" opportunities), lose his third and he would be even more behind because of his already crappy gas situation. Thats why JvF is anti climatic because they're always just just fighting over JD's third gas and flash usually wins, JD could have easily dragged out the situation in some of those cases but he knows that without the third gas he is screwed. Tbh I don't even know what he should have done, maybe use just enough drones to delay the bunker and get his sunkens asap? There was a game a while back when Flash actually bunker-rushed JD's 3rd only to get rushed 2base style. | ||
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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
On February 26 2012 01:42 Emperor_Earth wrote: SK was never ahead. His number of bases was not a very good indicator of his actual hold on the game. SK's tech and ups were disgustingly behind. If you notice, when FlaSh sneaked an scv in after the early game bunker shenanigans, he was specifically interested in the gas, then the hatch timing. He was so surprised 1st gas was so late he thought there must have been a fast third, which there wasn't. So then he sent an scv to top left because he figured maybe it was proxied. It wasn't. SK cut a LOT of drones both in ling production, the obvious, and not mining and idle larvaes, the not so obvious. And then when he did have gas, he had to get lair asap which further delayed his sling which delayed his third gas which limited his muta which further delayed his map ctrl which diminished his army strength. This limited his ability to go Crazy-Zerg style so FlaSh knew that lurkers were necessary. With lurkers being immobile and unable to defend multiple places with few units, he is forced to delay hive a VERY long time and build a ton of static defense/lurkers at both groups (top left and bottom right) which further dictated his gas usage and limited his drone count. He was forced, therefore, to minimize his ling numbers to maximize larvae defensive efficiency and opted for hydras to give him the flexibility to at least buy a semblance of presence since he couldn't afford enough mutas + lurkers on time at his bases. FlaSh knew ALL this and so delayed goliaths for what seemed an eternity and just preemptively went vulture/mine then mass vult/tank. I wouldn't doubt that this midgame transition was already planned out and he took the time to figure out the best places to mine up depending on probable rally points given bases taken and FlaSh's army positioning. The only strategic mistake I saw from FlaSh was expoing towards a lurker/hydra/ling opponent. If you remember from FlaSh interviews, he says that he doesn't practice physically as much as most players. Instead, he practices mentally m ore. He envisions scenarios and adjusts for player tendencies in his waking hours (maybe his sleeping hours too) and then theorycrafts probably best counters. Hence his "maphax" scans. really nice post. i also had the feeling that soulkey had 5 bases (2 of them being mineral only) but not enough drones to saturate them. | ||
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TrainSamurai
339 Posts
On February 26 2012 22:07 IntoTheheart wrote: There was a game a while back when Flash actually bunker-rushed JD's 3rd only to get rushed 2base style. I remember something like that lol. Tbh I'm just very biased against Soulkey because I don't like people saying his the best Zerg when effort and JD are still playing xD. | ||
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FirstProbe
1206 Posts
He managed to secure 5 bases but only three gas. He was in a strong position if unharassed while entering the late game. While he appreciated the mech transition, he was unable to strike in that small window. He was safe for a period of time and he needed to position himself better while teching. He needed to stall rather than be aggressive. Somehow Flash managed to kill a large portion of the hydra lurker army, with only vultures. This gave Flash the opportunity to push. Too many tanks and vultures against tier 2 tech, leading to the loss of his main base and expansions. Flash is simply too good. Fantasy is also playing well but lacks direction and instinct when compared to Flash. He tends to whittle away an opponent rather than strike to kill. | ||
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moktira
Ireland1542 Posts
Thanks to Neo7 for bringing this to my attention and providing me the VOD. I've marked it as unlisted for now. | ||
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Mumei
United States254 Posts
On February 26 2012 23:00 TrainSamurai wrote:I remember something like that lol. Tbh I'm just very biased against Soulkey because I don't like people saying his the best Zerg when effort and JD are still playing xD. It was on Neo Aztec in the midst of the four game win streak Jaedong had against Flash last year. | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
On February 26 2012 23:00 TrainSamurai wrote: I remember something like that lol. Tbh I'm just very biased against Soulkey because I don't like people saying his the best Zerg when effort and JD are still playing xD. Except, currently he IS the best Zerg. Neither Effort or JD are playing on his level at the moment. Doesn't mean SK is necessarily the "better" player, he's just playing better at the moment. | ||
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nepeta
1872 Posts
On February 26 2012 14:38 pyrogenetix wrote: Flash is too fucking sick He's just ahead of the curve -^ | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
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TrainSamurai
339 Posts
On February 27 2012 07:48 1Eris1 wrote: Except, currently he IS the best Zerg. Neither Effort or JD are playing on his level at the moment. Doesn't mean SK is necessarily the "better" player, he's just playing better at the moment. Best current zerg is the better current zerg player. Since I only watch my favourite players I haven't watched a lot of soulkey's game but if you actually go beyond the numbers and study thier preformance in SPL: Effort has 5 loses to: Flash Bisu Best Stats Mini From that list only mini is the unacceptable one, btw he is coming back from retirement and has less games so less chances to net more wins. Jaedong lost isn't really that bad I mean he isn't losing to say Ssak. Last year people were also crying about his form but I think it is more likely that the ZvZ scene has caught up to him, it has happened to everyone, boxer, oov and others ( btw Jaedong has only lost 1 ZvZ this year and that was a freakin good game). Last yr Jaedong didn't win trophys because of ZvZs and ONLY ZvZs (ok maybe he shouldn't have lost to Hiya). I'm not particularly worried since I'm use to him always losing the first game in a BoX anyways. FYI Team 8 only started practicing after everyone else had 1 month head start. Soulkey's record IS NOT WORSE but not much better either, he is very solid. Thats why I go by past achievements. Jaedong has shown that he is always able to mechanically keep up with flash (if he makes it to late game) and effort was freakin smart. That is why I refuse to say that SK is the best current zerg. Equal maybe but not better. | ||
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Winnetou
Brazil4 Posts
it really looked like him | ||
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Veles
United States3280 Posts
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iSometric
2221 Posts
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Keone
United States812 Posts
... Speechless. That last part was just... sheer dominance. It's like Soulkey thought he was doing well, but suddenly Flash decides to end it on EVERY front and destroys everything. I feel like he barely lost units too... the game was just ridiculous. From the bunker rush to SK's awesome Lurker egg mine save to that ending wave to the extra goliaths to protect against a muta switch... the game was just amazing. | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
That's the understatement of the year. Flash is 5-3 ultralisk and everyone else is a 0-0 zergling. | ||
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WaterTower
France138 Posts
Fantasy is definitely the #2 player at the moment. I only see him as capable of taking on Flash in the next few months, although he has yet to reach the dominating peak performance that Bisu and JD once were able to demonstrate. I would say there isnt much point right now comparing SK, JD, or Effort. SK is a rising star, Effort sort of an old hand who's not quite able to bring back the magic, and JD is a ???, although I would still place my bet on JD. Maybe a rematch with Flash will bring out his inner beast. | ||
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