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too all the haters...Hite set themselves up pretty well in this tourney...and that was the goal. Hydra wasn't just looking out for himself...he was looking out for his teammates -Leta, Snow and Horang2- as well.
This whole tournement is going have a million viewers. People watching their favorite players dook it out! And then turning in b/c you hate Hydra to see if he ever loses! Even if your players were seeded in different groups, there is no guarantee they would have made it far in the tournement anyways. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy some great starcraft b/c who know how much longer we will have it for (hopefully forever!)
Go Hite! Lets win another one!
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My hopes for this MSL:
-protoss gold at last, preferably Bisu, Stork or Kal
or
-FBH FREAKIN' CHAMPIOOOOON!!!
if not...
-Hyuk/Sea/Zero/Leta in final
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On April 12 2011 00:37 pugowar wrote:
too all the haters...Hite set themselves up pretty well in this tourney...and that was the goal. Hydra wasn't just looking out for himself...he was looking out for his teammates -Leta, Snow and Horang2- as well.
This whole tournement is going have a million viewers. People watching their favorite players dook it out! And then turning in b/c you hate Hydra to see if he ever loses! Even if your players were seeded in different groups, there is no guarantee they would have made it far in the tournement anyways. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy some great starcraft b/c who know how much longer we will have it for (hopefully forever!)
Go Hite! Lets win another one!
Right, so they're the most closed-minded and selfish team. Whoever wins this MSL needs to go put the Hite players together in a group next time. See how they feel about it. Screw Hite.
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On April 12 2011 03:12 Ecrilon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 00:37 pugowar wrote:
too all the haters...Hite set themselves up pretty well in this tourney...and that was the goal. Hydra wasn't just looking out for himself...he was looking out for his teammates -Leta, Snow and Horang2- as well.
This whole tournement is going have a million viewers. People watching their favorite players dook it out! And then turning in b/c you hate Hydra to see if he ever loses! Even if your players were seeded in different groups, there is no guarantee they would have made it far in the tournement anyways. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy some great starcraft b/c who know how much longer we will have it for (hopefully forever!)
Go Hite! Lets win another one! Right, so they're the most closed-minded and selfish team. Whoever wins this MSL needs to go put the Hite players together in a group next time. See how they feel about it. Screw Hite.
Uh that's already happened to them before in OSL when they had to kill each other off to get to the finals and got 3-0'd by JD at the end anyway
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On April 12 2011 03:14 Kyuukyuu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 03:12 Ecrilon wrote:On April 12 2011 00:37 pugowar wrote:
too all the haters...Hite set themselves up pretty well in this tourney...and that was the goal. Hydra wasn't just looking out for himself...he was looking out for his teammates -Leta, Snow and Horang2- as well.
This whole tournement is going have a million viewers. People watching their favorite players dook it out! And then turning in b/c you hate Hydra to see if he ever loses! Even if your players were seeded in different groups, there is no guarantee they would have made it far in the tournement anyways. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy some great starcraft b/c who know how much longer we will have it for (hopefully forever!)
Go Hite! Lets win another one! Right, so they're the most closed-minded and selfish team. Whoever wins this MSL needs to go put the Hite players together in a group next time. See how they feel about it. Screw Hite. Uh that's already happened to them before in OSL when they had to kill each other off to get to the finals and got 3-0'd by JD at the end anyway
God dammit. Well played.
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On April 12 2011 03:14 Kyuukyuu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 03:12 Ecrilon wrote:On April 12 2011 00:37 pugowar wrote:
too all the haters...Hite set themselves up pretty well in this tourney...and that was the goal. Hydra wasn't just looking out for himself...he was looking out for his teammates -Leta, Snow and Horang2- as well.
This whole tournement is going have a million viewers. People watching their favorite players dook it out! And then turning in b/c you hate Hydra to see if he ever loses! Even if your players were seeded in different groups, there is no guarantee they would have made it far in the tournement anyways. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy some great starcraft b/c who know how much longer we will have it for (hopefully forever!)
Go Hite! Lets win another one! Right, so they're the most closed-minded and selfish team. Whoever wins this MSL needs to go put the Hite players together in a group next time. See how they feel about it. Screw Hite. Uh that's already happened to them before in OSL when they had to kill each other off to get to the finals and got 3-0'd by JD at the end anyway
I thought that was due to the way OSL arranged the Ro8 brackets. The Hite players weren't originally in the same group during actual group stages.
But yeah, I remember that OSL. Wish the 3-0 had more epic games, but oh well.
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Just remember that groups always turn out the opposite of what you expect, so Sea 2-0 and Bisu 2-1, Jaedong 1-2 and Flash 0-2.
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
So...I guess Ssak and Classic were being dishonourable last year by taking Flash out of the MSL (in fact, judging from Kiante et al.'s logic, they effectively ruined the MSL by doing that)? Great should have thrown the series vs Kal to preclude an all ZvZ Ro4?
Because, you know, they should sacrifice themselves for the greater good of ESPORTS and all. And the MSL should have changed the Ro16 brackets last season to not have Bisu vs Stork. And Flash and Jaedong should have been seeded into the finals, leaving Hydra/Great to duke it out for 3rd place. Because ESPORTS.
You're right, its totally unfair for S-class to be judged on volatile tests of skill such as "Bo3" or "survivor format" ~
Guess what? TBLS weren't the best in the last MSL season. Flash scrubbed out in hilarious fashion and Stork got 3-0'ed by a middling A-class player, &c. Its not like the MSL doesn't have measures to protect players that perform from these group of death situations. Keyword: "perform".
You have every right to exercise your fanboyism (this is just like the people who thought that Flash should have been given a free pass to ro16 when ForGG retired). What I take issue is you cloaking it in the guise of caring about ESPORTS.
What happened here was that they, Hydra and great, dodge them while claiming that they are going to make another coll/gosu progamer group. Which to me is, bullshit.
You do realize that this group selection almost ensures 3 TBLS will advance.
How many advanced last season? Oh right, 3.
Full disclosure: I am a fan of Great's play (and his antics this MSL ~ excellent!) so consider said biases if you want.
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Your sarcasm sounds immature.
Flash was in an easy group with Ssak and Classic. He dropped out. This is his fault. Bisu, Jaedong and Flash are in a hard group where one of them will drop out. This is not their fault because even though they are the three best players in the world, they do not have the chance to all win. This is a distinction that you need to make. Sure, in the average tournament, not all the best players will get past the group stages, but at least they are given a fair chance at it, and are not matched against the other best players in the world so that one of them needs to be eliminated. Past the group stages, it becomes largely irrelevant as it is 1v1, and you are selecting the better player in a best of.
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Wow
Best P vs Best T vs Best Z!!!
Race war baby!
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
This is not their fault because even though they are the three best players in the world, they do not have the chance to all win.
Well yes -- there is only one MSL winner.
They do not have the chance to all win, even if TBLS were preseeded into the semifinals.
So they meet a little bit earlier, what's the big deal?
Past the group stages, it becomes largely irrelevant as it is 1v1, and you are selecting the better player in a best of.
Then the problem is with Survivor format and not Hydra/Great's actions.
Your sarcasm sounds immature.
Probably because the logic of the Hydra-hate squad is ridiculous. I'm just taking it to its logical conclusion (that the desire to win should be subject to how many fanboys X player has).
Right, so they're the most closed-minded and selfish team. Whoever wins this MSL needs to go put the Hite players together in a group next time. See how they feel about it. Screw Hite.
"One in glass houses..."
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Since there are several flaws that I see with your reasoning, I will start with the most obvious and work my way down as we resolve the issues. Are you willing to admit that there is a difference between being defeated in the semi finals versus the group stages?
We could of course take this to PMs. It might take some time.
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
Are you willing to admit that there is a difference between being defeated in the semi finals versus the group stages?
Please don't try to cover rhetorical blunders by moving the goalposts.
You seem to believe that the best players should get easy roads to advance towards the next stage of a tournament. I think that according to the seeding system, it makes sense that the TBLS who did poorly would get matched up earlier. This happens in most every sporting tournament format, with computer-set brackets as well as human-decided ones -- low-seeded players are most likely to face very difficult opening rounds.
Of course, its fair to criticize MSL for using this sort of seeding system -- but I find it insincere to bring this up only now, when your fan favorite now stands the chance of getting knocked out. You will see me making the argument several pages prior to this.
Secondly, the idea that this will lead to poor games is flawed. Sure, ZvZZZZZZZZ last season was terrible, but not all that much worse than every SL FvJ since Nate.
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On April 12 2011 00:37 pugowar wrote:
too all the haters...Hite set themselves up pretty well in this tourney...and that was the goal. Hydra wasn't just looking out for himself...he was looking out for his teammates -Leta, Snow and Horang2- as well.
This whole tournement is going have a million viewers. People watching their favorite players dook it out! And then turning in b/c you hate Hydra to see if he ever loses! Even if your players were seeded in different groups, there is no guarantee they would have made it far in the tournement anyways. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy some great starcraft b/c who know how much longer we will have it for (hopefully forever!)
Go Hite! Lets win another one!
Er no. Group D will have tons of viewers but the rest of the groups in the Ro32 won't. Snow's group is especially problematic. As an organizer and sponsor of a tournament, that's not what you want.
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Point out a "rhetorical blunder" before telling me I made one. Otherwise, you're just being rude.
The seeding system placed Bisu, Jaedong and Flash in separate groups. That is how they were actually "seeded". Hydra chose to place them in the same group, with one of the lowest sum seed groups that has ever existed in the MSL. It is a weakness of the MSL that this was allowed to happen. It is a weakness of Hydra that he chose to abuse it.
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
On April 12 2011 08:27 Ecrilon wrote:
Point out a "rhetorical blunder" before telling me I made one. Otherwise, you're just being rude.
The seeding system placed Bisu, Jaedong and Flash in separate groups. That is how they were actually "seeded". Hydra chose to place them in the same group, with one of the lowest sum seed groups that has ever existed in the MSL. It is a weakness of the MSL that this was allowed to happen. It is a weakness of Hydra that he chose to abuse it.
You say that its unfair not all three have the chance to win the MSL, I call you out on it, you proceed to ask a tangentially related question.
The seed order, I'm guessing, was determined via the same Survivor format you criticize as not being a fair metric of player skill.
That said, I too wouldn't be happy if someone placed my favorite player in a position to be eliminated. I still wouldn't accuse him of being unsportsmanlike, though. But then I guess we have unreconcileable differences of opinion over the term.
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On April 11 2011 18:32 Wohmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 10:59 ibreakurface wrote:On April 11 2011 05:40 Wohmfg wrote:On April 11 2011 05:08 ibreakurface wrote:On April 11 2011 00:11 Wohmfg wrote:On April 10 2011 22:39 ibreakurface wrote:On April 10 2011 16:22 419 wrote:It's just bad for the tournament. If it were possible for Bisu, Flash AND Jaedong to all advance if they played amazingly enough, I wouldn't say this. The burden would be on them to prove their merit. Last season: Flash out in Ro32 Bisu out in Ro16 They have only themselves to blame. If Flash had gotten a seed then group D(eath) would have never happened. Do you propose blatantly using name value as a criterion when it comes to the seeding process? Then things become no better than an invitational. Imo, Flash should be treated no better than anyone else who scrubbed out in Ro32. He is being treated differently though, he's put in group D. As far as competition goes this is pathetic from both great and hydra, so selfish and insecure. How do you mean, selfish? Because they tried to knock out the best of the competition early? You think progamers have some kind of duty to create fair games and entertainment for the fans? They play to win in order to make a living. What should they have done differently, exactly, to ensure that they weren't being selfish? They followed the rules given to them anyway, so don't complain about hydra and great. I'll complain all I want. I'm not saying that the choice isn't in their best interest, or that they are breaking any rules. I'm saying they are selfish and insecure. The early stages in any tourney shouldn't have the top 3 players eliminating each other, it's simply bad for the sport and tournament. They are damaging the tournament so they can win an empty victory. Therefore they are selfish, which is not respectable. What you're saying is that progamers should make it harder to get wins in order to entertain the fans. You're saying that progamers should play by a certain set of unwritten rules. When Bisu decided not to change group, he was being selfish. Did you lose respect for him? Did you lose respect for every single progamer who has ever made a decision in their career which helped them at the expense of entertainment? That's every progamer. All of those players are there to win the tournament. Should a terrible player that no one likes roll over and forfeit a Starleague Ro4 match in order to make a more epic finals match? If anything, blame the MSL selection process. Otherwise, I'd love to see the rules that you think players should abide by that aren't enforced by the MSL. It's not a matter of respect for you though, it's just that you're angry that a good player will get knocked out early and you need someone to hate. Wow you can read me like a book! Not. Players do shit for the sake of entertainment all the time, it is there job after all. Boxer was/is all about making entertaining games, flash stopped turtling every game because people said it was boring.I'm saying what great and hydra did tarnished the tournament, and when a player damages the Esports scene to give themselves a small edge it is pathetic. No hydra and great didn't break any rules, no they shouldn't be punished, it is just dishonorable. How can you deny that? I'd love source on the bolded statement. You say that great and Hydra crossed the line. The line seems to be based on your emotions and it's hypocritical. Every time a player makes a selfish move that hurts the entertainment value for the fans, they are being dishonourable and lose respect in your eyes. That's every progamer. Should a terrible player that no one likes roll over and forfeit a Starleague Ro4 match against an S-class favourite in order to make a more epic finals match? Because esports is about ENTERTAINMENT, not WINNING, right? To try and get to the finals is selfish, because there are better players who will give you better games and be more entertaining. Hydra and great had no obligations and no hidden ambiguous duties. I'd still like to see the exact set of unwritten rules you think Hydra and great should have been playing by though.
"The line seems to be based on your emotions and it's hypocritical"
I don't think you are understanding me. I'm aware this is based on my emotions, honor is subjective to the individual.
"Should a terrible player that no one likes roll over and forfeit a Starleague Ro4 match against an S-class favourite in order to make a more epic finals match? Because esports is about ENTERTAINMENT, not WINNING, right? To try and get to the finals is selfish, because there are better players who will give you better games and be more entertaining."
Strawman argument. Esports is a competition, obviously everyone should fight for #1. There is a difference between fighting for #1 and lowballing people. If anything hydra and great are removing the competition aspect for themselves.
ONCE AGAIN, since you seem to neglect this every time i post. I don't think they have any obligations, nor do I think they did anything they should be punished for. They are just being lame. It's funny how you seem to be attacking my OPINION saying it's hypocritical and what not.
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On April 12 2011 08:54 ibreakurface wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 18:32 Wohmfg wrote:On April 11 2011 10:59 ibreakurface wrote:On April 11 2011 05:40 Wohmfg wrote:On April 11 2011 05:08 ibreakurface wrote:On April 11 2011 00:11 Wohmfg wrote:On April 10 2011 22:39 ibreakurface wrote:On April 10 2011 16:22 419 wrote:It's just bad for the tournament. If it were possible for Bisu, Flash AND Jaedong to all advance if they played amazingly enough, I wouldn't say this. The burden would be on them to prove their merit. Last season: Flash out in Ro32 Bisu out in Ro16 They have only themselves to blame. If Flash had gotten a seed then group D(eath) would have never happened. Do you propose blatantly using name value as a criterion when it comes to the seeding process? Then things become no better than an invitational. Imo, Flash should be treated no better than anyone else who scrubbed out in Ro32. He is being treated differently though, he's put in group D. As far as competition goes this is pathetic from both great and hydra, so selfish and insecure. How do you mean, selfish? Because they tried to knock out the best of the competition early? You think progamers have some kind of duty to create fair games and entertainment for the fans? They play to win in order to make a living. What should they have done differently, exactly, to ensure that they weren't being selfish? They followed the rules given to them anyway, so don't complain about hydra and great. I'll complain all I want. I'm not saying that the choice isn't in their best interest, or that they are breaking any rules. I'm saying they are selfish and insecure. The early stages in any tourney shouldn't have the top 3 players eliminating each other, it's simply bad for the sport and tournament. They are damaging the tournament so they can win an empty victory. Therefore they are selfish, which is not respectable. What you're saying is that progamers should make it harder to get wins in order to entertain the fans. You're saying that progamers should play by a certain set of unwritten rules. When Bisu decided not to change group, he was being selfish. Did you lose respect for him? Did you lose respect for every single progamer who has ever made a decision in their career which helped them at the expense of entertainment? That's every progamer. All of those players are there to win the tournament. Should a terrible player that no one likes roll over and forfeit a Starleague Ro4 match in order to make a more epic finals match? If anything, blame the MSL selection process. Otherwise, I'd love to see the rules that you think players should abide by that aren't enforced by the MSL. It's not a matter of respect for you though, it's just that you're angry that a good player will get knocked out early and you need someone to hate. Wow you can read me like a book! Not. Players do shit for the sake of entertainment all the time, it is there job after all. Boxer was/is all about making entertaining games, flash stopped turtling every game because people said it was boring.I'm saying what great and hydra did tarnished the tournament, and when a player damages the Esports scene to give themselves a small edge it is pathetic. No hydra and great didn't break any rules, no they shouldn't be punished, it is just dishonorable. How can you deny that? I'd love source on the bolded statement. You say that great and Hydra crossed the line. The line seems to be based on your emotions and it's hypocritical. Every time a player makes a selfish move that hurts the entertainment value for the fans, they are being dishonourable and lose respect in your eyes. That's every progamer. Should a terrible player that no one likes roll over and forfeit a Starleague Ro4 match against an S-class favourite in order to make a more epic finals match? Because esports is about ENTERTAINMENT, not WINNING, right? To try and get to the finals is selfish, because there are better players who will give you better games and be more entertaining. Hydra and great had no obligations and no hidden ambiguous duties. I'd still like to see the exact set of unwritten rules you think Hydra and great should have been playing by though. "The line seems to be based on your emotions and it's hypocritical" I don't think you are understanding me. I'm aware this is based on my emotions, honor is subjective to the individual. "Should a terrible player that no one likes roll over and forfeit a Starleague Ro4 match against an S-class favourite in order to make a more epic finals match? Because esports is about ENTERTAINMENT, not WINNING, right? To try and get to the finals is selfish, because there are better players who will give you better games and be more entertaining." Strawman argument. Esports is a competition, obviously everyone should fight for #1. There is a difference between fighting for #1 and lowballing people. If anything hydra and great are removing the competition aspect for themselves. ONCE AGAIN, since you seem to neglect this every time i post. I don't think they have any obligations, nor do I think they did anything they should be punished for. They are just being lame. It's funny how you seem to be attacking my OPINION saying it's hypocritical and what not.
I just can't see it from your point of view. I can understand that you feel bad about what they did, I just can't see how that would make them dishonourable. In my eyes, using the logic you've used to deduce that great and Hydra are dishonourable leads me to the conclusion that every other progamer is dishonourable. As far as I can see it you've reached your conclusion of them being dishonourable because it makes you feel bad.
It's the only way I can see it right now. Guess we're just not going to see eye to eye on this.
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On April 12 2011 08:54 ibreakurface wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 18:32 Wohmfg wrote:On April 11 2011 10:59 ibreakurface wrote:On April 11 2011 05:40 Wohmfg wrote:On April 11 2011 05:08 ibreakurface wrote:On April 11 2011 00:11 Wohmfg wrote:On April 10 2011 22:39 ibreakurface wrote:On April 10 2011 16:22 419 wrote:It's just bad for the tournament. If it were possible for Bisu, Flash AND Jaedong to all advance if they played amazingly enough, I wouldn't say this. The burden would be on them to prove their merit. Last season: Flash out in Ro32 Bisu out in Ro16 They have only themselves to blame. If Flash had gotten a seed then group D(eath) would have never happened. Do you propose blatantly using name value as a criterion when it comes to the seeding process? Then things become no better than an invitational. Imo, Flash should be treated no better than anyone else who scrubbed out in Ro32. He is being treated differently though, he's put in group D. As far as competition goes this is pathetic from both great and hydra, so selfish and insecure. How do you mean, selfish? Because they tried to knock out the best of the competition early? You think progamers have some kind of duty to create fair games and entertainment for the fans? They play to win in order to make a living. What should they have done differently, exactly, to ensure that they weren't being selfish? They followed the rules given to them anyway, so don't complain about hydra and great. I'll complain all I want. I'm not saying that the choice isn't in their best interest, or that they are breaking any rules. I'm saying they are selfish and insecure. The early stages in any tourney shouldn't have the top 3 players eliminating each other, it's simply bad for the sport and tournament. They are damaging the tournament so they can win an empty victory. Therefore they are selfish, which is not respectable. What you're saying is that progamers should make it harder to get wins in order to entertain the fans. You're saying that progamers should play by a certain set of unwritten rules. When Bisu decided not to change group, he was being selfish. Did you lose respect for him? Did you lose respect for every single progamer who has ever made a decision in their career which helped them at the expense of entertainment? That's every progamer. All of those players are there to win the tournament. Should a terrible player that no one likes roll over and forfeit a Starleague Ro4 match in order to make a more epic finals match? If anything, blame the MSL selection process. Otherwise, I'd love to see the rules that you think players should abide by that aren't enforced by the MSL. It's not a matter of respect for you though, it's just that you're angry that a good player will get knocked out early and you need someone to hate. Wow you can read me like a book! Not. Players do shit for the sake of entertainment all the time, it is there job after all. Boxer was/is all about making entertaining games, flash stopped turtling every game because people said it was boring.I'm saying what great and hydra did tarnished the tournament, and when a player damages the Esports scene to give themselves a small edge it is pathetic. No hydra and great didn't break any rules, no they shouldn't be punished, it is just dishonorable. How can you deny that? I'd love source on the bolded statement. You say that great and Hydra crossed the line. The line seems to be based on your emotions and it's hypocritical. Every time a player makes a selfish move that hurts the entertainment value for the fans, they are being dishonourable and lose respect in your eyes. That's every progamer. Should a terrible player that no one likes roll over and forfeit a Starleague Ro4 match against an S-class favourite in order to make a more epic finals match? Because esports is about ENTERTAINMENT, not WINNING, right? To try and get to the finals is selfish, because there are better players who will give you better games and be more entertaining. Hydra and great had no obligations and no hidden ambiguous duties. I'd still like to see the exact set of unwritten rules you think Hydra and great should have been playing by though. "The line seems to be based on your emotions and it's hypocritical" I don't think you are understanding me. I'm aware this is based on my emotions, honor is subjective to the individual. "Should a terrible player that no one likes roll over and forfeit a Starleague Ro4 match against an S-class favourite in order to make a more epic finals match? Because esports is about ENTERTAINMENT, not WINNING, right? To try and get to the finals is selfish, because there are better players who will give you better games and be more entertaining." Strawman argument. Esports is a competition, obviously everyone should fight for #1. There is a difference between fighting for #1 and lowballing people. If anything hydra and great are removing the competition aspect for themselves. ONCE AGAIN, since you seem to neglect this every time i post. I don't think they have any obligations, nor do I think they did anything they should be punished for. They are just being lame. It's funny how you seem to be attacking my OPINION saying it's hypocritical and what not.
Should Calm have forfeited that Ro4 match against Jaedong in the Avalon MSL?
Should Yellow have foreited to avoid a ZvZ final?
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On April 12 2011 09:31 Wohmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 08:54 ibreakurface wrote:On April 11 2011 18:32 Wohmfg wrote:On April 11 2011 10:59 ibreakurface wrote:On April 11 2011 05:40 Wohmfg wrote:On April 11 2011 05:08 ibreakurface wrote:On April 11 2011 00:11 Wohmfg wrote:On April 10 2011 22:39 ibreakurface wrote:On April 10 2011 16:22 419 wrote:It's just bad for the tournament. If it were possible for Bisu, Flash AND Jaedong to all advance if they played amazingly enough, I wouldn't say this. The burden would be on them to prove their merit. Last season: Flash out in Ro32 Bisu out in Ro16 They have only themselves to blame. If Flash had gotten a seed then group D(eath) would have never happened. Do you propose blatantly using name value as a criterion when it comes to the seeding process? Then things become no better than an invitational. Imo, Flash should be treated no better than anyone else who scrubbed out in Ro32. He is being treated differently though, he's put in group D. As far as competition goes this is pathetic from both great and hydra, so selfish and insecure. How do you mean, selfish? Because they tried to knock out the best of the competition early? You think progamers have some kind of duty to create fair games and entertainment for the fans? They play to win in order to make a living. What should they have done differently, exactly, to ensure that they weren't being selfish? They followed the rules given to them anyway, so don't complain about hydra and great. I'll complain all I want. I'm not saying that the choice isn't in their best interest, or that they are breaking any rules. I'm saying they are selfish and insecure. The early stages in any tourney shouldn't have the top 3 players eliminating each other, it's simply bad for the sport and tournament. They are damaging the tournament so they can win an empty victory. Therefore they are selfish, which is not respectable. What you're saying is that progamers should make it harder to get wins in order to entertain the fans. You're saying that progamers should play by a certain set of unwritten rules. When Bisu decided not to change group, he was being selfish. Did you lose respect for him? Did you lose respect for every single progamer who has ever made a decision in their career which helped them at the expense of entertainment? That's every progamer. All of those players are there to win the tournament. Should a terrible player that no one likes roll over and forfeit a Starleague Ro4 match in order to make a more epic finals match? If anything, blame the MSL selection process. Otherwise, I'd love to see the rules that you think players should abide by that aren't enforced by the MSL. It's not a matter of respect for you though, it's just that you're angry that a good player will get knocked out early and you need someone to hate. Wow you can read me like a book! Not. Players do shit for the sake of entertainment all the time, it is there job after all. Boxer was/is all about making entertaining games, flash stopped turtling every game because people said it was boring.I'm saying what great and hydra did tarnished the tournament, and when a player damages the Esports scene to give themselves a small edge it is pathetic. No hydra and great didn't break any rules, no they shouldn't be punished, it is just dishonorable. How can you deny that? I'd love source on the bolded statement. You say that great and Hydra crossed the line. The line seems to be based on your emotions and it's hypocritical. Every time a player makes a selfish move that hurts the entertainment value for the fans, they are being dishonourable and lose respect in your eyes. That's every progamer. Should a terrible player that no one likes roll over and forfeit a Starleague Ro4 match against an S-class favourite in order to make a more epic finals match? Because esports is about ENTERTAINMENT, not WINNING, right? To try and get to the finals is selfish, because there are better players who will give you better games and be more entertaining. Hydra and great had no obligations and no hidden ambiguous duties. I'd still like to see the exact set of unwritten rules you think Hydra and great should have been playing by though. "The line seems to be based on your emotions and it's hypocritical" I don't think you are understanding me. I'm aware this is based on my emotions, honor is subjective to the individual. "Should a terrible player that no one likes roll over and forfeit a Starleague Ro4 match against an S-class favourite in order to make a more epic finals match? Because esports is about ENTERTAINMENT, not WINNING, right? To try and get to the finals is selfish, because there are better players who will give you better games and be more entertaining." Strawman argument. Esports is a competition, obviously everyone should fight for #1. There is a difference between fighting for #1 and lowballing people. If anything hydra and great are removing the competition aspect for themselves. ONCE AGAIN, since you seem to neglect this every time i post. I don't think they have any obligations, nor do I think they did anything they should be punished for. They are just being lame. It's funny how you seem to be attacking my OPINION saying it's hypocritical and what not. I just can't see it from your point of view. I can understand that you feel bad about what they did, I just can't see how that would make them dishonourable. In my eyes, using the logic you've used to deduce that great and Hydra are dishonourable leads me to the conclusion that every other progamer is dishonourable. As far as I can see it you've reached your conclusion of them being dishonourable because it makes you feel bad. It's the only way I can see it right now. Guess we're just not going to see eye to eye on this.
"There is a difference between fighting for #1 and lowballing people."
Think of it as a physical fight between 2 people. People kick and punch, but once you start biting and pulling hair it becomes dishonorable. It's unspoken rules, you can violate them but it's fucking lame when you do.
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