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On April 08 2011 13:28 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 12:22 VGhost wrote:On April 08 2011 06:11 j2choe wrote:On April 08 2011 04:03 VGhost wrote:On April 08 2011 03:30 ffreakk wrote:
Sigh, i still dont get people saying that "its great cos we ll get some TBLS games soon!"..
How is getting 1 game in the group stage preferable to having 3-5 games in the later rounds... I get the necessity for the longer series as you near the championship, but I don't subscribe to the "more games = better games" theory. Seriously? If nothing else, it's at least better in that you get to watch more games between the best players in the world. Yeah... but. I watch BW for entertainment. I've never made it past D- as a player (minus a lucky putting me at D+ until I... played another game) so I don't pretend to be good. I do like to think I understand the basics of the game a little bit, but right now BW is different from "real sports": very rarely are games between the very best entertaining - you need the not-quite-the-best to make things memorable. fantasy vs Jaedong. free vs HiyA. Leta vs Pure. The Bisu vs Iris series I mentioned before. The problem is - as Bisu vs Jaedong from WL playoffs demonstrated - is that games between the very best are only rarely decided by actual fantastic play. Build orders and strategic decisions become paramount because there's no real micro disadvantage or advantage to be gained. Simply put, I'd rather watch HiyA vs Kal in a Bo5 than Flash vs Stork, because we're more likely to get 2 or 3 memorable games out of 2 A class beating each other up than 2 S class with carefully prepared builds leading to (essentially) BO wins. I do acknowledge that you don't get "ee han timing!" or the JD vs fantasy series without two S class... but at the same time I don't mind losing the possibility of those golden moments because the probability of "silver moments" is much higher with slightly worse players. Like I said, this probably isn't a very popular view... but it's how I approach things. you don't think Bisu vs Jaedong didn't have fantastic play? That game was brilliance by both player, moreso Bisu than Jaedong. The game wasn't decided by any build-order advantage lol..
The Jaedong v. Flash power outage game would be the best example disproving this theory.
Although JD would have won w/o the power outage...it was crazy to see that huge m+m group moving...where I thought "no way can JD stop this push"
Superb play from both players, and it was evenly matched all the way through to the end.
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On April 08 2011 14:58 DJONES wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 13:28 ArvickHero wrote:On April 08 2011 12:22 VGhost wrote:On April 08 2011 06:11 j2choe wrote:On April 08 2011 04:03 VGhost wrote:On April 08 2011 03:30 ffreakk wrote:
Sigh, i still dont get people saying that "its great cos we ll get some TBLS games soon!"..
How is getting 1 game in the group stage preferable to having 3-5 games in the later rounds... I get the necessity for the longer series as you near the championship, but I don't subscribe to the "more games = better games" theory. Seriously? If nothing else, it's at least better in that you get to watch more games between the best players in the world. Yeah... but. I watch BW for entertainment. I've never made it past D- as a player (minus a lucky putting me at D+ until I... played another game) so I don't pretend to be good. I do like to think I understand the basics of the game a little bit, but right now BW is different from "real sports": very rarely are games between the very best entertaining - you need the not-quite-the-best to make things memorable. fantasy vs Jaedong. free vs HiyA. Leta vs Pure. The Bisu vs Iris series I mentioned before. The problem is - as Bisu vs Jaedong from WL playoffs demonstrated - is that games between the very best are only rarely decided by actual fantastic play. Build orders and strategic decisions become paramount because there's no real micro disadvantage or advantage to be gained. Simply put, I'd rather watch HiyA vs Kal in a Bo5 than Flash vs Stork, because we're more likely to get 2 or 3 memorable games out of 2 A class beating each other up than 2 S class with carefully prepared builds leading to (essentially) BO wins. I do acknowledge that you don't get "ee han timing!" or the JD vs fantasy series without two S class... but at the same time I don't mind losing the possibility of those golden moments because the probability of "silver moments" is much higher with slightly worse players. Like I said, this probably isn't a very popular view... but it's how I approach things. you don't think Bisu vs Jaedong didn't have fantastic play? That game was brilliance by both player, moreso Bisu than Jaedong. The game wasn't decided by any build-order advantage lol.. The Jaedong v. Flash power outage game would be the best example disproving this theory. Although JD would have won w/o the power outage...it was crazy to see that huge m+m group moving...where I thought "no way can JD stop this push" Superb play from both players, and it was evenly matched all the way through to the end.
And, who can forget Flash's ever osl run?
Basically barracks FE, use MnM micro to fend off mutas, attack, win.
So many times i thought "how can someone even play ZvT and even try to win" because Flash would trade single marines for mutas. His micro was insane.
one last thing: G5 Korean Air OSL finals. BO win + Micro fail --------> fail.
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i think the whole city is going have a poweroutage when group D collides...
BUT
i feel sorry for Bisu, even if he does get out... if he faces Kal or Shine... :'(
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On April 08 2011 15:05 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 14:58 DJONES wrote:On April 08 2011 13:28 ArvickHero wrote:On April 08 2011 12:22 VGhost wrote:On April 08 2011 06:11 j2choe wrote:On April 08 2011 04:03 VGhost wrote:On April 08 2011 03:30 ffreakk wrote:
Sigh, i still dont get people saying that "its great cos we ll get some TBLS games soon!"..
How is getting 1 game in the group stage preferable to having 3-5 games in the later rounds... I get the necessity for the longer series as you near the championship, but I don't subscribe to the "more games = better games" theory. Seriously? If nothing else, it's at least better in that you get to watch more games between the best players in the world. Yeah... but. I watch BW for entertainment. I've never made it past D- as a player (minus a lucky putting me at D+ until I... played another game) so I don't pretend to be good. I do like to think I understand the basics of the game a little bit, but right now BW is different from "real sports": very rarely are games between the very best entertaining - you need the not-quite-the-best to make things memorable. fantasy vs Jaedong. free vs HiyA. Leta vs Pure. The Bisu vs Iris series I mentioned before. The problem is - as Bisu vs Jaedong from WL playoffs demonstrated - is that games between the very best are only rarely decided by actual fantastic play. Build orders and strategic decisions become paramount because there's no real micro disadvantage or advantage to be gained. Simply put, I'd rather watch HiyA vs Kal in a Bo5 than Flash vs Stork, because we're more likely to get 2 or 3 memorable games out of 2 A class beating each other up than 2 S class with carefully prepared builds leading to (essentially) BO wins. I do acknowledge that you don't get "ee han timing!" or the JD vs fantasy series without two S class... but at the same time I don't mind losing the possibility of those golden moments because the probability of "silver moments" is much higher with slightly worse players. Like I said, this probably isn't a very popular view... but it's how I approach things. you don't think Bisu vs Jaedong didn't have fantastic play? That game was brilliance by both player, moreso Bisu than Jaedong. The game wasn't decided by any build-order advantage lol.. The Jaedong v. Flash power outage game would be the best example disproving this theory. Although JD would have won w/o the power outage...it was crazy to see that huge m+m group moving...where I thought "no way can JD stop this push" Superb play from both players, and it was evenly matched all the way through to the end. And, who can forget Flash's ever osl run? Basically barracks FE, use MnM micro to fend off mutas, attack, win. So many times i thought "how can someone even play ZvT and even try to win" because Flash would trade single marines for mutas. His micro was insane. one last thing: G5 Korean Air OSL finals. BO win + Micro fail --------> fail.
Or in KA OSL 2 where it was 4 pool vs 8 rax?
Totally intense totally bad ass
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Thanks for all those translations on the fomos boards..if theres more that would be great!
Group D...oh boy
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On April 08 2011 15:05 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 14:58 DJONES wrote:On April 08 2011 13:28 ArvickHero wrote:On April 08 2011 12:22 VGhost wrote:On April 08 2011 06:11 j2choe wrote:On April 08 2011 04:03 VGhost wrote:On April 08 2011 03:30 ffreakk wrote:
Sigh, i still dont get people saying that "its great cos we ll get some TBLS games soon!"..
How is getting 1 game in the group stage preferable to having 3-5 games in the later rounds... I get the necessity for the longer series as you near the championship, but I don't subscribe to the "more games = better games" theory. Seriously? If nothing else, it's at least better in that you get to watch more games between the best players in the world. Yeah... but. I watch BW for entertainment. I've never made it past D- as a player (minus a lucky putting me at D+ until I... played another game) so I don't pretend to be good. I do like to think I understand the basics of the game a little bit, but right now BW is different from "real sports": very rarely are games between the very best entertaining - you need the not-quite-the-best to make things memorable. fantasy vs Jaedong. free vs HiyA. Leta vs Pure. The Bisu vs Iris series I mentioned before. The problem is - as Bisu vs Jaedong from WL playoffs demonstrated - is that games between the very best are only rarely decided by actual fantastic play. Build orders and strategic decisions become paramount because there's no real micro disadvantage or advantage to be gained. Simply put, I'd rather watch HiyA vs Kal in a Bo5 than Flash vs Stork, because we're more likely to get 2 or 3 memorable games out of 2 A class beating each other up than 2 S class with carefully prepared builds leading to (essentially) BO wins. I do acknowledge that you don't get "ee han timing!" or the JD vs fantasy series without two S class... but at the same time I don't mind losing the possibility of those golden moments because the probability of "silver moments" is much higher with slightly worse players. Like I said, this probably isn't a very popular view... but it's how I approach things. you don't think Bisu vs Jaedong didn't have fantastic play? That game was brilliance by both player, moreso Bisu than Jaedong. The game wasn't decided by any build-order advantage lol.. The Jaedong v. Flash power outage game would be the best example disproving this theory. Although JD would have won w/o the power outage...it was crazy to see that huge m+m group moving...where I thought "no way can JD stop this push" Superb play from both players, and it was evenly matched all the way through to the end. And, who can forget Flash's ever osl run? Basically barracks FE, use MnM micro to fend off mutas, attack, win. So many times i thought "how can someone even play ZvT and even try to win" because Flash would trade single marines for mutas. His micro was insane. one last thing: G5 Korean Air OSL finals. BO win + Micro fail --------> fail.
KA OSL season 2 was incredible too, but because it was a series with a lot of mind game.
game 1 : Flash map hacks and doesn't fall in the burrowed ling trap JD had prepared.
game 2 : sickest ZvT 5 pool in history
game 3 : 5 pool again :o
game 4 : flash cheeses, nobody knows how JD defends again, then Flash map hacks again to defend JD's doom drop whom no one else would have been able to defend.
I was :O :O :O during the whole series.
And what about last WCG ? the game at Tau Cross is probably the best TvZ of 2010... and definitely one of the best ever.
I have never enough of FvJ.
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I honestly don't get why people are raging over Bisu, Jaedong and Flash being in the same group. They've already had their opportunities to rule the scene, let some newcomers get some spotlight (or some veterans get out of the shadow that is TBLS). I've already had enough of watching FvJ finals, especially when most of them never delivered the hype they were given; in my opinion, only the Bigfile MSL finals delivered, everything else was a one-sided domination that anyone could have easily pictured and not have wasted time sitting and watching the games.
Watching the Fantasy vs Stork finals was a huge breath of fresh air for the proscene in my opinion; regardless of the result, watching two players not Flash and Jaedong play in their best match-ups was honestly more entertaining than all of the FvJ finals combined, and if the majority of TBLS is eliminated early on, well that's good news for the scene personally.
I don't necessarily hate Flash or Jaedong directly, but I would like some variety please.
EDIT: My only issue with all of this is that this potentially ruins the possibility of Flash playing Hydra, which would really test Hydra's vT prowress (personally, he's pretty much proven himself in every match-up save vT).
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Newcomers can rule the scene when they're actually better than the old guard. They shouldn't rule the scene just because the best 3 players cannibalize themselves in group stages and never even get a shot. You're not better than another player by avoiding them.
Also, you're straight silly if you think the Fantasy vs Stork finals was a good series. It was a onesided build order beatdown where one player was prepared and the other was lazy. It is the saddest, paling comparison to their previous final which was absolutely fucking sick. PS: People are upset about Bisu being in the group, as well -- turns out, Bisu is not Flash or Jaedong.
FvJ has given us so many insane games that I have to double take everytime someone goes "well their games never deliver!" No other active players in the scene have given us nearly as many games as great as FvJ.
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On April 08 2011 15:35 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Newcomers can rule the scene when they're actually better than the old guard. They shouldn't rule the scene just because the best 3 players cannibalize themselves in group stages and never even get a shot. You're not better than another player by avoiding them.
Also, you're straight silly if you think the Fantasy vs Stork finals was a good series. It was a onesided build order beatdown where one player was prepared and the other was lazy. It is the saddest, paling comparison to their previous final which was absolutely fucking sick. PS: People are upset about Bisu being in the group, as well -- turns out, Bisu is not Flash or Jaedong.
FvJ has given us so many insane games that I have to double take everytime someone goes "well their games never deliver!" No other active players in the scene have given us nearly as many games as great as FvJ.
Damn right! FvsJ and BW forever!
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On April 08 2011 15:21 HitoriTomoyo wrote:
I honestly don't get why people are raging over Bisu, Jaedong and Flash being in the same group. They've already had their opportunities to rule the scene, let some newcomers get some spotlight (or some veterans get out of the shadow that is TBLS). I've already had enough of watching FvJ finals, especially when most of them never delivered the hype they were given; in my opinion, only the Bigfile MSL finals delivered, everything else was a one-sided domination that anyone could have easily pictured and not have wasted time sitting and watching the games.
Watching the Fantasy vs Stork finals was a huge breath of fresh air for the proscene in my opinion; regardless of the result, watching two players not Flash and Jaedong play in their best match-ups was honestly more entertaining than all of the FvJ finals combined, and if the majority of TBLS is eliminated early on, well that's good news for the scene personally.
I don't necessarily hate Flash or Jaedong directly, but I would like some variety please.
EDIT: My only issue with all of this is that this potentially ruins the possibility of Flash playing Hydra, which would really test Hydra's vT prowress (personally, he's pretty much proven himself in every match-up save vT).
i dont disagree with you that much, but fantasy vs stork finals was bad.
it was more one sided than any of the Flash vs Jaedong finals in my opinion.
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On April 08 2011 15:35 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Newcomers can rule the scene when they're actually better than the old guard. They shouldn't rule the scene just because the best 3 players cannibalize themselves in group stages and never even get a shot. You're not better than another player by avoiding them.
Also, you're straight silly if you think the Fantasy vs Stork finals was a good series. It was a onesided build order beatdown where one player was prepared and the other was lazy. It is the saddest, paling comparison to their previous final which was absolutely fucking sick. PS: People are upset about Bisu being in the group, as well -- turns out, Bisu is not Flash or Jaedong.
FvJ has given us so many insane games that I have to double take everytime someone goes "well their games never deliver!" No other active players in the scene have given us nearly as many games as great as FvJ.
Well said.
I'm all for new talent, but do it the right way, like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu, who became the best by playing and beating the best.
Edit: I don't necessarily mean, put yourself against the best, but don't try and avoid them :\
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On April 08 2011 12:22 VGhost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 06:11 j2choe wrote:On April 08 2011 04:03 VGhost wrote:On April 08 2011 03:30 ffreakk wrote:
Sigh, i still dont get people saying that "its great cos we ll get some TBLS games soon!"..
How is getting 1 game in the group stage preferable to having 3-5 games in the later rounds... I get the necessity for the longer series as you near the championship, but I don't subscribe to the "more games = better games" theory. Seriously? If nothing else, it's at least better in that you get to watch more games between the best players in the world. Yeah... but. I watch BW for entertainment. I've never made it past D- as a player (minus a lucky putting me at D+ until I... played another game) so I don't pretend to be good. I do like to think I understand the basics of the game a little bit, but right now BW is different from "real sports": very rarely are games between the very best entertaining - you need the not-quite-the-best to make things memorable. fantasy vs Jaedong. free vs HiyA. Leta vs Pure. The Bisu vs Iris series I mentioned before. The problem is - as Bisu vs Jaedong from WL playoffs demonstrated - is that games between the very best are only rarely decided by actual fantastic play. Build orders and strategic decisions become paramount because there's no real micro disadvantage or advantage to be gained. Simply put, I'd rather watch HiyA vs Kal in a Bo5 than Flash vs Stork, because we're more likely to get 2 or 3 memorable games out of 2 A class beating each other up than 2 S class with carefully prepared builds leading to (essentially) BO wins. I do acknowledge that you don't get "ee han timing!" or the JD vs fantasy series without two S class... but at the same time I don't mind losing the possibility of those golden moments because the probability of "silver moments" is much higher with slightly worse players. Like I said, this probably isn't a very popular view... but it's how I approach things.
...Your first example of not quite the best players playing is Fantasy vs Jaedong?
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On April 08 2011 15:54 Yxes2211 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 15:35 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Newcomers can rule the scene when they're actually better than the old guard. They shouldn't rule the scene just because the best 3 players cannibalize themselves in group stages and never even get a shot. You're not better than another player by avoiding them.
Also, you're straight silly if you think the Fantasy vs Stork finals was a good series. It was a onesided build order beatdown where one player was prepared and the other was lazy. It is the saddest, paling comparison to their previous final which was absolutely fucking sick. PS: People are upset about Bisu being in the group, as well -- turns out, Bisu is not Flash or Jaedong.
FvJ has given us so many insane games that I have to double take everytime someone goes "well their games never deliver!" No other active players in the scene have given us nearly as many games as great as FvJ. Well said. I'm all for new talent, but do it the right way, like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu, who became the best by playing and beating the best. Edit: I don't necessarily mean, put yourself against the best, but don't try and avoid them :\
Agreed, not dodging them like some talentless newbie.
I'm pretty sure there are korean netizens raging about this. I would be great to know if whats on their minds :D
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On April 08 2011 16:05 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 15:54 Yxes2211 wrote:On April 08 2011 15:35 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Newcomers can rule the scene when they're actually better than the old guard. They shouldn't rule the scene just because the best 3 players cannibalize themselves in group stages and never even get a shot. You're not better than another player by avoiding them.
Also, you're straight silly if you think the Fantasy vs Stork finals was a good series. It was a onesided build order beatdown where one player was prepared and the other was lazy. It is the saddest, paling comparison to their previous final which was absolutely fucking sick. PS: People are upset about Bisu being in the group, as well -- turns out, Bisu is not Flash or Jaedong.
FvJ has given us so many insane games that I have to double take everytime someone goes "well their games never deliver!" No other active players in the scene have given us nearly as many games as great as FvJ. Well said. I'm all for new talent, but do it the right way, like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu, who became the best by playing and beating the best. Edit: I don't necessarily mean, put yourself against the best, but don't try and avoid them :\ Agreed, not dodging them like some talentless newbie. I'm pretty sure there are korean netizens raging about this. I would be great to know if whats on their minds :D
Read the previous page.
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After the last pathetic MSL, I was really hoping for a great entertaining one this time round, then along came a wimp called Hydra and he decided to mess the MSL up...
But I still hope Flash and Jaedong and pull through this one and save the MSL...
Did they do post MSL group selection ceremony interviews? I'm interested to hear what the pros in group D have to say about this set up... where could I find it?
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On April 08 2011 16:08 Ryo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 16:05 aimaimaim wrote:On April 08 2011 15:54 Yxes2211 wrote:On April 08 2011 15:35 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Newcomers can rule the scene when they're actually better than the old guard. They shouldn't rule the scene just because the best 3 players cannibalize themselves in group stages and never even get a shot. You're not better than another player by avoiding them.
Also, you're straight silly if you think the Fantasy vs Stork finals was a good series. It was a onesided build order beatdown where one player was prepared and the other was lazy. It is the saddest, paling comparison to their previous final which was absolutely fucking sick. PS: People are upset about Bisu being in the group, as well -- turns out, Bisu is not Flash or Jaedong.
FvJ has given us so many insane games that I have to double take everytime someone goes "well their games never deliver!" No other active players in the scene have given us nearly as many games as great as FvJ. Well said. I'm all for new talent, but do it the right way, like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu, who became the best by playing and beating the best. Edit: I don't necessarily mean, put yourself against the best, but don't try and avoid them :\ Read the previous page. Agreed, not dodging them like some talentless newbie. I'm pretty sure there are korean netizens raging about this. I would be great to know if whats on their minds :D
i translated the comments from korean netizens on page 52
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Wow imagine if Stork didn't have Seed and we have all four GOD battle it out. WOULD HAVE BEEN SO EPIC. Yeah it's lame that it's BO1 but can you imagine the pressure. Only two GOD can walk out.! GOGOGO FLASH!
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On April 08 2011 15:35 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Newcomers can rule the scene when they're actually better than the old guard. They shouldn't rule the scene just because the best 3 players cannibalize themselves in group stages and never even get a shot. You're not better than another player by avoiding them.
Also, you're straight silly if you think the Fantasy vs Stork finals was a good series. It was a onesided build order beatdown where one player was prepared and the other was lazy. It is the saddest, paling comparison to their previous final which was absolutely fucking sick. PS: People are upset about Bisu being in the group, as well -- turns out, Bisu is not Flash or Jaedong.
FvJ has given us so many insane games that I have to double take everytime someone goes "well their games never deliver!" No other active players in the scene have given us nearly as many games as great as FvJ.
totally agree, even when it does look one-sided (like that goliath timing push by flash vs jd) just watching them execute with perfection is a marvel to look at.
tbh flash's mm micro is so good i feel going mutas against flash isn't very good these days. the last jd vs flash game recently, flash's mm micro was so good he made lurkers look underpowered...LOL! what can zerg do...... jk 
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Ahahahahaha the invisible terran 
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IMHO, they must change the way of selecting players. Best players from KESPa should be seeded everyone in other group, and the rest of players would be chosen by lottery, like they do in football championships.
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EPT
