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On April 10 2011 18:02 tyCe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 15:55 Bisu-Fan wrote:On April 10 2011 00:12 luckybeni2 wrote:
It was a rather boring finals in my opinion. I was kind of on the skt side but come on... 2 zvz to start off and s2 getting 3 kills, not exactly spectacular. And the Bisu-Flash game was far from good, too. I had hoped for a little more action and much better games. Anyway, looking forward to the start of next PL season and the TSL, of course. wow.... what are you talking about man???? i can't comment on the s2 3 kill... but the s2 flash was intense for a while... and then Bisu vs Flash??? are you kidding me??? that was sooo intense!!! It wasn't really intense. It was just a game with a slightly cheesey opening from Bisu and seeing whether Flash could micro against impossible odds to come back. He couldn't and then we just saw him do a desparate timing attack all-in where no timing existed. The game was predictably over ever since the opening BOs were determined and Flash scouted the wrong way while Bisu scouted the right way. I'm a little bitter about the luck involved in the spawn locations and scouting pattern, but I have to admit that the gamble was worth it from SKT. That build was a 66% auto win (only 33% chance to have far spawns, and it's pretty much 100% chance that Flash goes 1rax->CC). Good decision by the SKT coaching team, who I have to say, is a million billion trillion times better than the KT coaching team. Most of the time the KT coaches just rely on Flash and Stats to save their less-competent asses. The finals were insanely bad quality though. Technical errors stopping play for a long time, 2 scrub-tier ZvZs, 1 Shine-eque all-in ZvP, 1 failed, horribly mismicroed ZvT, and lastly a cheesy PvT into failed all-in.
I have no idea what you are talking about..
Since Bisu scout early (right after Gate).
1/ If probe sees T base = send Zeal there
2/ If probe sees empty base, send Zeal the other way.
There is no 66% involved, the Zeal(s) would have headed for the right base 100% of the time.
I would be repeating some very fine points already mentioned earlier.. But there was no need for Bisu to keep pumping Zeals as he did.. Bisu only kept on streaming Zeals because after scouting the entirety of Flash's economic/military situation he decided that it would be the best course of action. He could have cut Zeal production as early as before the 1st Zeal came out, should his scouting return different infos. 's far as i can tell, the risk involved in Bisu's build was minimal, or at least within acceptable level (less than a Rax-CC build anw).
Of course, every build is advantagous vs some builds and disadvantagous vs some others.. Do Flash's fans think/say/scream that he cheeses everytime he goes Rax CC and the Toss goes Range expand?
Lastly, it might not matter to some, but Flash scouted late.. His SCV havnt even reached the empty base when Bisu's 1st Zeal slapped the CC-building SCV around.
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On April 11 2011 06:33 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 18:02 tyCe wrote:On April 10 2011 15:55 Bisu-Fan wrote:On April 10 2011 00:12 luckybeni2 wrote:
It was a rather boring finals in my opinion. I was kind of on the skt side but come on... 2 zvz to start off and s2 getting 3 kills, not exactly spectacular. And the Bisu-Flash game was far from good, too. I had hoped for a little more action and much better games. Anyway, looking forward to the start of next PL season and the TSL, of course. wow.... what are you talking about man???? i can't comment on the s2 3 kill... but the s2 flash was intense for a while... and then Bisu vs Flash??? are you kidding me??? that was sooo intense!!! It wasn't really intense. It was just a game with a slightly cheesey opening from Bisu and seeing whether Flash could micro against impossible odds to come back. He couldn't and then we just saw him do a desparate timing attack all-in where no timing existed. The game was predictably over ever since the opening BOs were determined and Flash scouted the wrong way while Bisu scouted the right way. I'm a little bitter about the luck involved in the spawn locations and scouting pattern, but I have to admit that the gamble was worth it from SKT. That build was a 66% auto win (only 33% chance to have far spawns, and it's pretty much 100% chance that Flash goes 1rax->CC). Good decision by the SKT coaching team, who I have to say, is a million billion trillion times better than the KT coaching team. Most of the time the KT coaches just rely on Flash and Stats to save their less-competent asses. The finals were insanely bad quality though. Technical errors stopping play for a long time, 2 scrub-tier ZvZs, 1 Shine-eque all-in ZvP, 1 failed, horribly mismicroed ZvT, and lastly a cheesy PvT into failed all-in. I have no idea what you are talking about.. Since Bisu scout early (right after Gate). 1/ If probe sees T base = send Zeal there 2/ If probe sees empty base, send Zeal the other way. There is no 66% involved, the Zeal(s) would have headed for the right base 100% of the time. I would be repeating some very fine points already mentioned earlier.. But there was no need for Bisu to keep pumping Zeals as he did.. Bisu only kept on streaming Zeals because after scouting the entirety of Flash's economic/military situation he decided that it would be the best course of action. He could have cut Zeal production as early as before the 1st Zeal came out, should his scouting return different infos. 's far as i can tell, the risk involved in Bisu's build was minimal, or at least within acceptable level (less than a Rax-CC build anw). Of course, every build is advantagous vs some builds and disadvantagous vs some others.. Do Flash's fans think/say/scream that he cheeses everytime he goes Rax CC and the Toss goes Range expand? Lastly, it might not matter to some, but Flash scouted late.. His SCV havnt even reached the empty base when Bisu's 1st Zeal slapped the CC-building SCV around.
I you don't see where your opponent straight away, you are already in the process of making two zealots, which is something you really don't want to do at that level because if they happen to be useless because your opponent has a wall in, you are really behind. 200 minerals and late first goon in a lot early game at S class level.
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I dont know if anyone pointed this out, but  s2 and  Bisu reedemed themselves after failing in the SPL Grand Finals.
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On April 11 2011 07:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 06:33 ffreakk wrote:On April 10 2011 18:02 tyCe wrote:On April 10 2011 15:55 Bisu-Fan wrote:On April 10 2011 00:12 luckybeni2 wrote:
It was a rather boring finals in my opinion. I was kind of on the skt side but come on... 2 zvz to start off and s2 getting 3 kills, not exactly spectacular. And the Bisu-Flash game was far from good, too. I had hoped for a little more action and much better games. Anyway, looking forward to the start of next PL season and the TSL, of course. wow.... what are you talking about man???? i can't comment on the s2 3 kill... but the s2 flash was intense for a while... and then Bisu vs Flash??? are you kidding me??? that was sooo intense!!! It wasn't really intense. It was just a game with a slightly cheesey opening from Bisu and seeing whether Flash could micro against impossible odds to come back. He couldn't and then we just saw him do a desparate timing attack all-in where no timing existed. The game was predictably over ever since the opening BOs were determined and Flash scouted the wrong way while Bisu scouted the right way. I'm a little bitter about the luck involved in the spawn locations and scouting pattern, but I have to admit that the gamble was worth it from SKT. That build was a 66% auto win (only 33% chance to have far spawns, and it's pretty much 100% chance that Flash goes 1rax->CC). Good decision by the SKT coaching team, who I have to say, is a million billion trillion times better than the KT coaching team. Most of the time the KT coaches just rely on Flash and Stats to save their less-competent asses. The finals were insanely bad quality though. Technical errors stopping play for a long time, 2 scrub-tier ZvZs, 1 Shine-eque all-in ZvP, 1 failed, horribly mismicroed ZvT, and lastly a cheesy PvT into failed all-in. I have no idea what you are talking about.. Since Bisu scout early (right after Gate). 1/ If probe sees T base = send Zeal there 2/ If probe sees empty base, send Zeal the other way. There is no 66% involved, the Zeal(s) would have headed for the right base 100% of the time. I would be repeating some very fine points already mentioned earlier.. But there was no need for Bisu to keep pumping Zeals as he did.. Bisu only kept on streaming Zeals because after scouting the entirety of Flash's economic/military situation he decided that it would be the best course of action. He could have cut Zeal production as early as before the 1st Zeal came out, should his scouting return different infos. 's far as i can tell, the risk involved in Bisu's build was minimal, or at least within acceptable level (less than a Rax-CC build anw). Of course, every build is advantagous vs some builds and disadvantagous vs some others.. Do Flash's fans think/say/scream that he cheeses everytime he goes Rax CC and the Toss goes Range expand? Lastly, it might not matter to some, but Flash scouted late.. His SCV havnt even reached the empty base when Bisu's 1st Zeal slapped the CC-building SCV around. I you don't see where your opponent straight away, you are already in the process of making two zealots, which is something you really don't want to do at that level because if they happen to be useless because your opponent has a wall in, you are really behind. 200 minerals and late first goon in a lot early game at S class level.
He did see the opponent straight away though. And Flash did 1rax CC blind with late scout in an important game. 200 minerals wasn't wasted, FD wasn't the build he faced, late goon never mattered, and your post was pointless. Do you pop up in Flash game threads to come and call out Flash for cheesing with a 8rax that's all the way in his OWN NATURAL :O and saying well damn if that Zerg had went 9pool speedling flash would surely be dead, hes totally relying on risks! No of course not cause you're another irritating person with a KT symbol talking shit about any Flash loss as if it's not his own fault. You can go through tons of Flash wins talking the same shit in reverse.
Stop trying to discredit someones blatant and very decisive win, with a superior plan and superior decision making, and superior execution. I'm surprised you guys aren't bringing up his fucking wrist hurting as an excuse next.
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On April 11 2011 07:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 06:33 ffreakk wrote:On April 10 2011 18:02 tyCe wrote:On April 10 2011 15:55 Bisu-Fan wrote:On April 10 2011 00:12 luckybeni2 wrote:
It was a rather boring finals in my opinion. I was kind of on the skt side but come on... 2 zvz to start off and s2 getting 3 kills, not exactly spectacular. And the Bisu-Flash game was far from good, too. I had hoped for a little more action and much better games. Anyway, looking forward to the start of next PL season and the TSL, of course. wow.... what are you talking about man???? i can't comment on the s2 3 kill... but the s2 flash was intense for a while... and then Bisu vs Flash??? are you kidding me??? that was sooo intense!!! It wasn't really intense. It was just a game with a slightly cheesey opening from Bisu and seeing whether Flash could micro against impossible odds to come back. He couldn't and then we just saw him do a desparate timing attack all-in where no timing existed. The game was predictably over ever since the opening BOs were determined and Flash scouted the wrong way while Bisu scouted the right way. I'm a little bitter about the luck involved in the spawn locations and scouting pattern, but I have to admit that the gamble was worth it from SKT. That build was a 66% auto win (only 33% chance to have far spawns, and it's pretty much 100% chance that Flash goes 1rax->CC). Good decision by the SKT coaching team, who I have to say, is a million billion trillion times better than the KT coaching team. Most of the time the KT coaches just rely on Flash and Stats to save their less-competent asses. The finals were insanely bad quality though. Technical errors stopping play for a long time, 2 scrub-tier ZvZs, 1 Shine-eque all-in ZvP, 1 failed, horribly mismicroed ZvT, and lastly a cheesy PvT into failed all-in. I have no idea what you are talking about.. Since Bisu scout early (right after Gate). 1/ If probe sees T base = send Zeal there 2/ If probe sees empty base, send Zeal the other way. There is no 66% involved, the Zeal(s) would have headed for the right base 100% of the time. I would be repeating some very fine points already mentioned earlier.. But there was no need for Bisu to keep pumping Zeals as he did.. Bisu only kept on streaming Zeals because after scouting the entirety of Flash's economic/military situation he decided that it would be the best course of action. He could have cut Zeal production as early as before the 1st Zeal came out, should his scouting return different infos. 's far as i can tell, the risk involved in Bisu's build was minimal, or at least within acceptable level (less than a Rax-CC build anw). Of course, every build is advantagous vs some builds and disadvantagous vs some others.. Do Flash's fans think/say/scream that he cheeses everytime he goes Rax CC and the Toss goes Range expand? Lastly, it might not matter to some, but Flash scouted late.. His SCV havnt even reached the empty base when Bisu's 1st Zeal slapped the CC-building SCV around. I you don't see where your opponent straight away, you are already in the process of making two zealots, which is something you really don't want to do at that level because if they happen to be useless because your opponent has a wall in, you are really behind. 200 minerals and late first goon in a lot early game at S class level.
I havnt had the time to rewatch the game to check for exact timing, but this is from what i remember (hope it doesnt come across as offensive to anyone that i like to number/bullet my points, just feel that its more organised and easier to read that way)
- scout probe leaves to scout after putting down the Gate.
- scout probe reaches base = Gate done.
1/ Right base = profit.. Whether to build Zeal, put down Core, or a Nex can be decided based on scouting info
2/ Wrong base = probe head for real T base, make Zeal. Probe reached = 1 - 1.5 Zeal done.
2.1/ Terran Rax-CC = profit (as Bisu did)
2.2/ Terran building Fac = tough luck.. Im not sure of the appropriate response, but cancelling the (second) Zeal that is under production, and put down a C.Core maybe? In any case, Toss is (slightly?) behind at this point (1 useless(?) Zeal).
While this is a very rough estimate, there is 75% chance that Bisu would have ended up in an advantagous/even situation.. It isnt really possible to have a build that would put you ahead/even 100% of the time anyway. So in my opinion, it really shouldnt be considered anything near a cheese? Most decision in-game were made based on scouted info anyway.
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1 zeal isn't even useless anyway and is common PvT, and is certainly not some kind of disadvantage that's gonna effect the games result. so this whole thing is just stupid arguments intended as some justification for his loss, yet we can see mistakes from Flash and good play from Bisu throughout the whole game besides from any bullshit theory about 'What if Flash did the right opening'.
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Interesting how only 17 out of 409 people in the poll in the OP predicted SK Telecom T1 4:1 KT Rolster.
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On April 11 2011 05:14 ibreakurface wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 03:51 dukethegold wrote:On April 11 2011 02:35 ibreakurface wrote:On April 11 2011 01:23 aimaimaim wrote:On April 11 2011 00:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:On April 10 2011 23:34 infinity2k9 wrote:On April 10 2011 22:25 ibreakurface wrote:On April 10 2011 10:29 ArvickHero wrote:On April 10 2011 09:40 ibreakurface wrote:On April 10 2011 08:52 Spekulatius wrote:[quote] [quote] Call it cheese or not, but to be fair, he said he went for a build that would put him at a disadvantage if Flash had gone for a factory expand, and that "for his strategy to work" he needed Flash to go Barracks into expansion. "When I pushed out with my Zealots, for my strategy to work, Flash had go for a rax expand, but if he had gone for a factory expand instead, then I could have been at a disadvantage, but since the game went the way I wanted it to go, I was able to win." - Bisu (from the Post-game interview) But I don't know how sincere he is - Korean players (MC aside) are known to be humble about their success. It was a gimmicky build to say the least. Gate-FE has been around for a while, you don't know what you are talking about lol. Had Bisu gone for the normal Range-Expand, Bisu would've been at a disadvantage against Flash's Rax-FE, wheras it would've been even if Flash went FD. Considering that the map is Aztec, Bisu probably correctly guessed that Flash would attempt to push every single advantage he could press to get his timing push out faster (even skipped turrets lol) If you blindly do something hoping to get an advantage, and risk getting a disadvantage, it's gimmicky. Whether it's a 14cc or BBS. Bisu didn't rely on mechanics or micro, just a BO advantage. I cannot believe how one sided people manage to see this. Flash went for a BLIND Rax CC with no bunker in a series when they are 3-1 behind, instead of playing a safe FD. How is that not a risk exactly? Bisu was modest in the interview cause even against FD his build would have been still fine and go into a normal game, Flash was the one doing the risky eco build. And how did he not rely on micro when he took the scouted decision to continue aggressive zealot pressure? And then there's people trying to stretch that Aztec is the worst TvP map ever somehow despite the fact Flash Rax CC's quite often and could have had the identical result elsewhere. Due to low ground mains getting up on the natural ridge for T when pushing is excellent, it definitely has it's upsides and if anything Flash got a favorable starting position to push from as opposed to straight down. Bisu going gate first on the top of the ramp is just a smart decision not some massive all-out risk like some are trying to suggest. If Flash was seriously worried about the map as if it was Bloody Ridge why not 2fac then or something, is he not confident he can beat Bisu in a micro battle ala HBR again? The arguments here are like saying 'wow Outsider imba ZvT remove it!' after Flash gets crippled by early ling pressure due to 14CC and dies later to mutas. And yes i agree with the person above that it was one of those typical games that often happens between Flash/Jaedong/Bisu where the eco advantage rolls into a win for certain. But Flash made the game losing decision in this case. 1gate Nex was not do or die. On April 10 2011 23:08 okum wrote:
It was cheese. Of a very fine quality. No it just wasn't, simple as that. How you can think a gate then nex is cheese i have no idea. People don't have to allow Terran's to get the best eco build possible with no reaction. On April 10 2011 23:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On April 10 2011 22:31 Kiante wrote:
In the same vein, flash was "gimmicky" with his rax expand, because it was open to being exploited how bisu did (or how stork did vs flash when he did a proxy 4 gate bust). Every build has its ups and downs, stop trying to villainise bisu for going gate-expo :S Agree. The only thing which can be said about Bisu's build, is that it's a one shot build. Won't ever work again. He used it in a very important game, and that's really SKT1 style (startegic builds well prepared for one precise game), so congratz to him. Flash microed his marines absolutely amazingly too, which makes Bisu's performance even more impressive. Building a gate first at natural on a low ground main map is not one shot; And clearly not even a bad build regularly if Terrans are going to Rax CC in so many games. If it turns out to be FD just don't build more zealots and transition to normal play. How would he be 'miles' behind from having 1 zealot produced (cause the scout would see if it was worth continuing with the play) when the Nex is still up straight away. Streaming zealots in PvT isn't precisely the thing to do unless you really know what your opponent is doing.Even building a couple of zealots, considering that Gate Nex is inferior economically to Rax FE would put him really far behind. Bisu said in an interview days ago he had a counter build. Flash has just been dumb to do exactly what he expected. Bisu knew Flash was gonna Rax FE Bisu knew his zealot micro is great S-class level Bisu can still make goons if he saw a safer build IDK why flash fans (not you :p) insists that it was cheese or it was the map. Why can't they see Flash's fault? Fantasy is 4-1 in this map, with games from stork and snow. And to think this was the finals, flash should have at least prepared for the worst case scenario. And knowing T1, they have build orders for every possible out come, they know how to double their chances of winning. Why wasn't KT prepared? Why was flash unprepared? Flash was under prepared because he had to prepare for everything. Bisu only had to practice vT for a snipe since he has other players to back him up, like fantasy. Flash has to be prepared for pretty much every matchup on the last 4 maps.. Somehow you ignored the fact that SKT had to claw its way to the final while KT sat home looking pretty with very generous amount of practice time. I doubt flash practiced vP on aztec, or thought he had to. That's all I have to say.
lol so he spent those extra 2 weeks thinking he wouldn't be sent before set 4?
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On April 11 2011 10:58 Doraemon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 05:14 ibreakurface wrote:On April 11 2011 03:51 dukethegold wrote:On April 11 2011 02:35 ibreakurface wrote:On April 11 2011 01:23 aimaimaim wrote:On April 11 2011 00:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:On April 10 2011 23:34 infinity2k9 wrote:On April 10 2011 22:25 ibreakurface wrote:On April 10 2011 10:29 ArvickHero wrote:On April 10 2011 09:40 ibreakurface wrote:
[quote]
It was a gimmicky build to say the least. Gate-FE has been around for a while, you don't know what you are talking about lol. Had Bisu gone for the normal Range-Expand, Bisu would've been at a disadvantage against Flash's Rax-FE, wheras it would've been even if Flash went FD. Considering that the map is Aztec, Bisu probably correctly guessed that Flash would attempt to push every single advantage he could press to get his timing push out faster (even skipped turrets lol) If you blindly do something hoping to get an advantage, and risk getting a disadvantage, it's gimmicky. Whether it's a 14cc or BBS. Bisu didn't rely on mechanics or micro, just a BO advantage. I cannot believe how one sided people manage to see this. Flash went for a BLIND Rax CC with no bunker in a series when they are 3-1 behind, instead of playing a safe FD. How is that not a risk exactly? Bisu was modest in the interview cause even against FD his build would have been still fine and go into a normal game, Flash was the one doing the risky eco build. And how did he not rely on micro when he took the scouted decision to continue aggressive zealot pressure? And then there's people trying to stretch that Aztec is the worst TvP map ever somehow despite the fact Flash Rax CC's quite often and could have had the identical result elsewhere. Due to low ground mains getting up on the natural ridge for T when pushing is excellent, it definitely has it's upsides and if anything Flash got a favorable starting position to push from as opposed to straight down. Bisu going gate first on the top of the ramp is just a smart decision not some massive all-out risk like some are trying to suggest. If Flash was seriously worried about the map as if it was Bloody Ridge why not 2fac then or something, is he not confident he can beat Bisu in a micro battle ala HBR again? The arguments here are like saying 'wow Outsider imba ZvT remove it!' after Flash gets crippled by early ling pressure due to 14CC and dies later to mutas. And yes i agree with the person above that it was one of those typical games that often happens between Flash/Jaedong/Bisu where the eco advantage rolls into a win for certain. But Flash made the game losing decision in this case. 1gate Nex was not do or die. On April 10 2011 23:08 okum wrote:
It was cheese. Of a very fine quality. No it just wasn't, simple as that. How you can think a gate then nex is cheese i have no idea. People don't have to allow Terran's to get the best eco build possible with no reaction. On April 10 2011 23:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On April 10 2011 22:31 Kiante wrote:
In the same vein, flash was "gimmicky" with his rax expand, because it was open to being exploited how bisu did (or how stork did vs flash when he did a proxy 4 gate bust). Every build has its ups and downs, stop trying to villainise bisu for going gate-expo :S Agree. The only thing which can be said about Bisu's build, is that it's a one shot build. Won't ever work again. He used it in a very important game, and that's really SKT1 style (startegic builds well prepared for one precise game), so congratz to him. Flash microed his marines absolutely amazingly too, which makes Bisu's performance even more impressive. Building a gate first at natural on a low ground main map is not one shot; And clearly not even a bad build regularly if Terrans are going to Rax CC in so many games. If it turns out to be FD just don't build more zealots and transition to normal play. How would he be 'miles' behind from having 1 zealot produced (cause the scout would see if it was worth continuing with the play) when the Nex is still up straight away. Streaming zealots in PvT isn't precisely the thing to do unless you really know what your opponent is doing.Even building a couple of zealots, considering that Gate Nex is inferior economically to Rax FE would put him really far behind. Bisu said in an interview days ago he had a counter build. Flash has just been dumb to do exactly what he expected. Bisu knew Flash was gonna Rax FE Bisu knew his zealot micro is great S-class level Bisu can still make goons if he saw a safer build IDK why flash fans (not you :p) insists that it was cheese or it was the map. Why can't they see Flash's fault? Fantasy is 4-1 in this map, with games from stork and snow. And to think this was the finals, flash should have at least prepared for the worst case scenario. And knowing T1, they have build orders for every possible out come, they know how to double their chances of winning. Why wasn't KT prepared? Why was flash unprepared? Flash was under prepared because he had to prepare for everything. Bisu only had to practice vT for a snipe since he has other players to back him up, like fantasy. Flash has to be prepared for pretty much every matchup on the last 4 maps.. Somehow you ignored the fact that SKT had to claw its way to the final while KT sat home looking pretty with very generous amount of practice time. I doubt flash practiced vP on aztec, or thought he had to. That's all I have to say. lol so he spent those extra 2 weeks thinking he wouldn't be sent before set 4? ? He knew he wouldn't be sent out in any of the 1st 3 games, and there was a very slim chance of him playing the 4th.
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^The Aztec game was a set 5 anyway, so there's no excuse.
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On April 11 2011 11:10 Crisium wrote:
^The Aztec game was a set 5 anyway, so there's no excuse.
This.
It is inane to think that KT would allow flash to slouch on the mere possibility of being sniped by Bisu by the fifth.
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On April 11 2011 11:08 ibreakurface wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 10:58 Doraemon wrote:On April 11 2011 05:14 ibreakurface wrote:On April 11 2011 03:51 dukethegold wrote:On April 11 2011 02:35 ibreakurface wrote:On April 11 2011 01:23 aimaimaim wrote:On April 11 2011 00:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:On April 10 2011 23:34 infinity2k9 wrote:On April 10 2011 22:25 ibreakurface wrote:On April 10 2011 10:29 ArvickHero wrote:
[quote]
Gate-FE has been around for a while, you don't know what you are talking about lol. Had Bisu gone for the normal Range-Expand, Bisu would've been at a disadvantage against Flash's Rax-FE, wheras it would've been even if Flash went FD. Considering that the map is Aztec, Bisu probably correctly guessed that Flash would attempt to push every single advantage he could press to get his timing push out faster (even skipped turrets lol) If you blindly do something hoping to get an advantage, and risk getting a disadvantage, it's gimmicky. Whether it's a 14cc or BBS. Bisu didn't rely on mechanics or micro, just a BO advantage. I cannot believe how one sided people manage to see this. Flash went for a BLIND Rax CC with no bunker in a series when they are 3-1 behind, instead of playing a safe FD. How is that not a risk exactly? Bisu was modest in the interview cause even against FD his build would have been still fine and go into a normal game, Flash was the one doing the risky eco build. And how did he not rely on micro when he took the scouted decision to continue aggressive zealot pressure? And then there's people trying to stretch that Aztec is the worst TvP map ever somehow despite the fact Flash Rax CC's quite often and could have had the identical result elsewhere. Due to low ground mains getting up on the natural ridge for T when pushing is excellent, it definitely has it's upsides and if anything Flash got a favorable starting position to push from as opposed to straight down. Bisu going gate first on the top of the ramp is just a smart decision not some massive all-out risk like some are trying to suggest. If Flash was seriously worried about the map as if it was Bloody Ridge why not 2fac then or something, is he not confident he can beat Bisu in a micro battle ala HBR again? The arguments here are like saying 'wow Outsider imba ZvT remove it!' after Flash gets crippled by early ling pressure due to 14CC and dies later to mutas. And yes i agree with the person above that it was one of those typical games that often happens between Flash/Jaedong/Bisu where the eco advantage rolls into a win for certain. But Flash made the game losing decision in this case. 1gate Nex was not do or die. On April 10 2011 23:08 okum wrote:
It was cheese. Of a very fine quality. No it just wasn't, simple as that. How you can think a gate then nex is cheese i have no idea. People don't have to allow Terran's to get the best eco build possible with no reaction. On April 10 2011 23:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On April 10 2011 22:31 Kiante wrote:
In the same vein, flash was "gimmicky" with his rax expand, because it was open to being exploited how bisu did (or how stork did vs flash when he did a proxy 4 gate bust). Every build has its ups and downs, stop trying to villainise bisu for going gate-expo :S Agree. The only thing which can be said about Bisu's build, is that it's a one shot build. Won't ever work again. He used it in a very important game, and that's really SKT1 style (startegic builds well prepared for one precise game), so congratz to him. Flash microed his marines absolutely amazingly too, which makes Bisu's performance even more impressive. Building a gate first at natural on a low ground main map is not one shot; And clearly not even a bad build regularly if Terrans are going to Rax CC in so many games. If it turns out to be FD just don't build more zealots and transition to normal play. How would he be 'miles' behind from having 1 zealot produced (cause the scout would see if it was worth continuing with the play) when the Nex is still up straight away. Streaming zealots in PvT isn't precisely the thing to do unless you really know what your opponent is doing.Even building a couple of zealots, considering that Gate Nex is inferior economically to Rax FE would put him really far behind. Bisu said in an interview days ago he had a counter build. Flash has just been dumb to do exactly what he expected. Bisu knew Flash was gonna Rax FE Bisu knew his zealot micro is great S-class level Bisu can still make goons if he saw a safer build IDK why flash fans (not you :p) insists that it was cheese or it was the map. Why can't they see Flash's fault? Fantasy is 4-1 in this map, with games from stork and snow. And to think this was the finals, flash should have at least prepared for the worst case scenario. And knowing T1, they have build orders for every possible out come, they know how to double their chances of winning. Why wasn't KT prepared? Why was flash unprepared? Flash was under prepared because he had to prepare for everything. Bisu only had to practice vT for a snipe since he has other players to back him up, like fantasy. Flash has to be prepared for pretty much every matchup on the last 4 maps.. Somehow you ignored the fact that SKT had to claw its way to the final while KT sat home looking pretty with very generous amount of practice time. I doubt flash practiced vP on aztec, or thought he had to. That's all I have to say. lol so he spent those extra 2 weeks thinking he wouldn't be sent before set 4? ? He knew he wouldn't be sent out in any of the 1st 3 games, and there was a very slim chance of him playing the 4th.
I don't get your point. This is a competitive scene. Flash has to be prepared for the finals, their coaching staff should have made preparations for flash in case of snipe, because there is a 100% that there will be a snipe.
If you blame aztec, again, let's compare Flash vs Fantasy then. Fantasy is a 4-1 on Aztec. Why is that? BECAUSE HE WAS PREPARED. Being lazy was Flash's problem, not Bisu's, not T1, not s2's not the map. Accept it, he was out-played by the team. Ask yourself this instead, WHY DID KT RELIED ON FLASH?
Then you will understand why Flash was defeated by Bisu, Why T1 defeated KT.
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To be fair, KT relied on the first 3 players they sent out to win all or at least some of their games. Whatever scenarios KT prepared and planned for went out the window because s2 performed so well. The night's surprise MVP forced KT to rely on  Flash.
KT could have several people trained to stop a rampaging Bisu, Fantasy or Best but I doubt fighting a rampaging s2 was high in their list of priorities. Personally, the first 3 matches were more nailbiting for me cause s2 was capable of hyuking himself at any point in time.
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On April 11 2011 09:06 reincremate wrote:
Interesting how only 17 out of 409 people in the poll in the OP predicted SK Telecom T1 4:1 KT Rolster.
about maybe 4%
Around the fantasy to stork predictions
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On April 11 2011 05:02 BreakerD wrote:
Wow flash tearboys are the worst. S2 won the tourny and we dont even get to see him kiss the trophy thats something sad to talk about.
Reason why flash lost is because he plays to predictable (aka boring). He doesnt have much builds and Bisu took advantage with his zealots. Everyone knows flash's opening build is pretty much FE. Look at baby, stork, and bisu with the early harass. Remember free vs flash in bo5 and flash bunker the shit out of the FE nexus of free most flash fan boy called it brilliant, but when Bisu does it its cheese wow.
I think s2 was so overwhelmed with what occurred and since it is winners' league and not an individual tournament, he doesn't get to kiss it.
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10387 Posts
wait wat.. apparently there was a 2v2 showmatch w/ Stork and Leta being paired w/ some other ppl before this. VODs?????
Also Paralyze kissed the trophy xD
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On April 11 2011 17:11 ArvickHero wrote:
wait wat.. apparently there was a 2v2 showmatch w/ Stork and Leta being paired w/ some other ppl before this. VODs?????
Also Paralyze kissed the trophy xD
We needs vods for this!!!!
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Disappointing to say the least. s2 played well and so did Bisu but, like several people pointed out already, SKT seems to almost exclusively rely on the theoretical 'right' build for whichever opponent they're playing. And of course on Bisu's ability to take home the decisive one-kill against opponents like Jaedong and Flash. In short: they're a competent and boring team, but I guess that's enough to deserve a victory.
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On April 11 2011 18:38 micromegas wrote:
Disappointing to say the least. s2 played well and so did Bisu but, like several people pointed out already, SKT seems to almost exclusively rely on the theoretical 'right' build for whichever opponent they're playing. And of course on Bisu's ability to take home the decisive one-kill against opponents like Jaedong and Flash. In short: they're a competent and boring team, but I guess that's enough to deserve a victory.
How can you say they are a boring team?
Having to cook up the "theoretically 'right build' is boring against someone who "Uses a build all of the time thus making him predictable'??
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On April 11 2011 18:38 micromegas wrote:
Disappointing to say the least. s2 played well and so did Bisu but, like several people pointed out already, SKT seems to almost exclusively rely on the theoretical 'right' build for whichever opponent they're playing. And of course on Bisu's ability to take home the decisive one-kill against opponents like Jaedong and Flash. In short: they're a competent and boring team, but I guess that's enough to deserve a victory.
So if you know that using a certain strategy/plan will increase your chance of winning then why not use it? And how is that boring? Or you just prefer to have matches with two players play standard games into macro mode so that a fundamentally better player will always win all the time?
I know that it hurts and you're disappointed to be on a losing side but this kind of argument just makes
no sense and is logically very wrong.
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EPT
