EPT[SWL] Samsung Khan vs KT Rolster - Page 31
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Vasoline73
United States7763 Posts
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iLoveKT
Philippines3615 Posts
On March 13 2011 16:33 Renkaoru wrote: When Stork 12 Nex and Flash bunker rushes, it's not cheese. But when Flash blind 1 Rax CC's and Stork proxy gates, DIE STORK YOU CHEESY MOFO!! Gotta LOVE the fucking EPIC LOGIC LOL! Good games though. At least in terms of entertainment value of tonight's games, no one came out at a loss.  i kinda like your logic too. | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On March 13 2011 16:33 TwoToneTerran wrote: No it wasn't. Let me spell this out cleanly to you. The gas steal comes before Flash can do ANY build. His barracks isn't even finished when it happens. For all we know, Flash could've been going 1 factory expand, 2 factory, fast dropship, ANYTHING, but because he got his gas stolen, the only thing he could make was bunkers and CCs. Stork's 4 gate came because there is LITERALLY nothing flash can do but rax cc -- stork forced him to. This wasn't a blind choice by Flash, Stork's gas steal forces Flash to play this way. It's not blind, it's not something that Stork scouted and responded to (like he did against Flash, and like Flash did against him in this game). The only way for Terran to defend that is to build 2 extra bunkers, make extra marines, and preferably research marine range before getting his tank out, and this can only happen if he scouts the gates otherwise he's crippling himself. i am no longer calling it blind cc as you have convinced me otherwise but i still oppse the view that other posters have that stork cheesed flash in that game. | ||
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Tianx
United States1196 Posts
Also, if you haven't checked it out, the other match had some spectacular games as well. | ||
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okum
France5778 Posts
On March 13 2011 16:33 Renkaoru wrote: When Stork 12 Nex and Flash bunker rushes, it's not cheese. But when Flash blind 1 Rax CC's and Stork proxy gates, DIE STORK YOU CHEESY MOFO!! Gotta LOVE the fucking EPIC LOGIC LOL! I don't speak for other Flash fans, but I find his proxy raxes are completely cheesy, and awesome in equal amounts. That goes for Stork's cheeses too. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
I mean, this was a bit cheesey, but Flash is still expanding after mines (standard). All he did was pull 5 scvs to attack, which is very common against 12nex and not a cheese there either. It's just something no one's seen before so it seems kind of cheesey. | ||
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alypse
Vietnam2762 Posts
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Monkeyshark
United States406 Posts
On March 13 2011 16:33 Renkaoru wrote: When Stork 12 Nex and Flash bunker rushes, it's not cheese. But when Flash blind 1 Rax CC's and Stork proxy gates, DIE STORK YOU CHEESY MOFO!! Gotta LOVE the fucking EPIC LOGIC LOL! Good games though. At least in terms of entertainment value of tonight's games, no one came out at a loss. Except you didn't watch today's game so your post is non sense. | ||
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ssregi-
Korea (South)146 Posts
On March 13 2011 16:38 TwoToneTerran wrote: I don't know what building 4 gateways before expanding is if not a cheese. I mean, this was a bit cheesey, but Flash is still expanding after mines (standard). All he did was pull 5 scvs to attack, which is very common against 12nex and not a cheese there either. It's just something no one's seen before so it seems kind of cheesey. How bout losing all yo SCVs and Didn't take the nexus ? | ||
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Meapak_Ziphh
United States6785 Posts
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radialis
726 Posts
On March 13 2011 16:33 Renkaoru wrote: When Stork 12 Nex and Flash bunker rushes, it's not cheese. But when Flash blind 1 Rax CC's and Stork proxy gates, DIE STORK YOU CHEESY MOFO!! Gotta LOVE the fucking EPIC LOGIC LOL! Good games though. At least in terms of entertainment value of tonight's games, no one came out at a loss. for starters, stork didn't 12 nex. secondly, it wasn't blind 1 rax cc. finally, if you count the number of people calling cheese in either game (in the LR thread) you will find it's pretty much even get your facts straight before you make a post criticizing everyone. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On March 13 2011 16:40 ssregi- wrote: How bout losing all yo SCVs and Didn't take the nexus ? Then he still has an expansion with as many workers as Stork because to defend the attack you HAVE to use probes to defend, which will die. It's a pretty break even or get advantage idea unless you just have ABYSMAL control. I'd imagine Flash's control is good enough to not make it do or die. Cheeses are typically something that means you HAVE to win with it or you die. There are rare occurences where you do just enough damage for the game to progress in a general fashion, but that's not the intent. The intent of Flash's push isn't even to win then and there, as seen by how he just contains stork. It's literally the classic example of executing a strategy to get an advantage (not win), and then to expand upon that advantage until you can't lose. That's how I define the difference. Some people think if you proxy any unit production facility and attack with it that it's cheese, and that's fine too, I just disagree. | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On March 13 2011 16:38 TwoToneTerran wrote: I don't know what building 4 gateways before expanding is if not a cheese. I mean, this was a bit cheesey, but Flash is still expanding after mines (standard). All he did was pull 5 scvs to attack, which is very common against 12nex and not a cheese there either. It's just something no one's seen before so it seems kind of cheesey. Likewise i believe upon opening 10gate and discovering a natural that the opponent cannot defend is akin to flashes bukner rush... neither are cheese. just calculated risks that progamers take. | ||
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Renkaoru
390 Posts
On March 13 2011 16:36 ShadeR wrote: i am no longer calling it blind cc as you have convinced me otherwise but i still oppse the view that other posters have that stork cheesed flash in that game. Seeing as this is a discussion between fanboys and as cheese is a relatively volatile term in SCBW, it's best not to argue anymore. My view is simple, I think both Stork and Flash respond to a scouted early expansion by using early aggression. If people call Stork cheesy for that, then I'll call Flash cheesy for the same thing. On March 13 2011 16:39 Monkeyshark wrote: Except you didn't watch today's game so your post is non sense. Except I don't post assumptions that somebody didn't watch the game lol. Or maybe that person has hidden cameras installed at other people's houses now? O_o | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On March 13 2011 16:44 ShadeR wrote: Likewise i believe upon opening 10gate and discovering a natural that the opponent cannot defend is akin to flashes bukner rush... neither are cheese. just calculated risks that progamers take. Are you referring to the 4 gate with that first bit? Because the 4gate was most definitely cheese by any and all definitions. The thing I don't get is why people think cheese are so bad. Flash cheeses ALL the time, it's no insult to call anything he does a cheese because of how often he does it. I just like defining the difference when people get questionable about it. On March 13 2011 16:45 Renkaoru wrote: Seeing as this is a discussion between fanboys and as cheese is a relatively volatile term in SCBW, it's best not to argue anymore. My view is simple, I think both Stork and Flash respond to a scouted early expansion by using early aggression. If people call Stork cheesy for that, then I'll call Flash cheesy for the same thing. See, here's a big problem with the mentality here. You just tell people not to talk to each other and insult them. This is a perfectly reasonable time to talk about what is and isn't a cheese because there's some ambiguity, not just respond with a kneejerk reaction the way you're telling him to. | ||
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Kyuukyuu
Canada6263 Posts
On March 13 2011 16:44 ShadeR wrote: Likewise i believe upon opening 10gate and discovering a natural that the opponent cannot defend is akin to flashes bukner rush... neither are cheese. just calculated risks that progamers take. "Discovering" the undefended natural... that Stork forced him to make lol | ||
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okum
France5778 Posts
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On March 13 2011 16:49 Kyuukyuu wrote: "Discovering" the undefended natural... that Stork forced him to make lol I suppose we will never be able to define the parameters that cheese falls within... at least criterion that everyone is happy with =S | ||
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Renkaoru
390 Posts
On March 13 2011 16:38 okum wrote: I don't speak for other Flash fans, but I find his proxy raxes are completely cheesy, and awesome in equal amounts. That goes for Stork's cheeses too. On March 13 2011 16:50 okum wrote: People should stop arguing about cheese as if it's something bad. The cheese is good. Embrace the cheese. As a matter of fact, I like your way of thinking. | ||
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ssregi-
Korea (South)146 Posts
On March 13 2011 16:44 TwoToneTerran wrote: Then he still has an expansion with as many workers as Stork because to defend the attack you HAVE to use probes to defend, which will die. It's a pretty break even or get advantage idea unless you just have ABYSMAL control. I'd imagine Flash's control is good enough to not make it do or die. Cheeses are typically something that means you HAVE to win with it or you die. There are rare occurences where you do just enough damage for the game to progress in a general fashion, but that's not the intent. The intent of Flash's push isn't even to win then and there, as seen by how he just contains stork. It's literally the classic example of executing a strategy to get an advantage (not win), and then to expand upon that advantage until you can't lose. That's how I define the difference. Some people think if you proxy any unit production facility and attack with it that it's cheese, and that's fine too, I just disagree. Ok so yo pull 5 SCvs to my nat when u see me 12 nexus While I still product my Little probes. So i pull some Little probes to mining at my nat and yo attack me with yo 5 scvs and some marine When yo push fail even i lost like 5 or 7 probe, you still product scvs with 1 CC and no nat while i still produce My awsomeness Probes on 2 nexus So when if Flash bunker rush Stork he must Certain that he will take the nexus or delay his Mining nat until Flash' CC at home finish | ||
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