EPTWhen a terran is behind (and lacking army strength), they are forced to turtle or gg. The real hate here I'm guessing is the fact that Flash is good enough to come back from situations others wouldn't be instead of rolling over to harass.
[SWL] SK Telecom T1 vs KT Rolster - Page 128
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moopie
12605 Posts
When a terran is behind (and lacking army strength), they are forced to turtle or gg. The real hate here I'm guessing is the fact that Flash is good enough to come back from situations others wouldn't be instead of rolling over to harass. | ||
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b0lt
United States790 Posts
On January 10 2011 12:16 OpticalShot wrote: If you want to speak turtle, watch Mind's games... Flash is actually one of the most exciting Terrans to watch. The correct answer to this is Canata: | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
Zerg, on the other hand, may have problems with too many vessels or too many tanks in a single base. | ||
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KTF_CloaK
Netherlands1338 Posts
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Crt
247 Posts
There's nothing wrong with turtling. There's nothing wrong with cheese. You play to win. If you win in whatever style you do, you're a better player in that specific game. Stop complaining. You people are such sissies. | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On January 10 2011 15:27 KTF_CloaK wrote: Flash turtling? Oh please, okay he does that sometimes but he said in an interview once that we wanted to show the audience more exciting games, and so began the decond half of 2010 where he was the most aggressive player out there, like hyper aggressive, Flash can do that, and many terrans cant (I think only Flash can do such a style of play and not get rolled over). And did you watch any of his games THIS YEAR? That guy was a beast, a fucking hyperaggressive beast with steroids lol. To be honest, he does ruin a lot of games with either a turtling strategies or ones that just win through superior macro/timing attacks. Not something that necessarily needs to be corrected, but nothing that makes you a fan-favorite. Out of the last 3 SL finals, there was only a single game that I found entertaining, arguably 1-2 more. I certainly don't want to see a single final that ends like those again. | ||
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KTF_CloaK
Netherlands1338 Posts
On January 10 2011 15:50 Lightwip wrote: To be honest, he does ruin a lot of games with either a turtling strategies or ones that just win through superior macro/timing attacks. Not something that necessarily needs to be corrected, but nothing that makes you a fan-favorite. Out of the last 3 SL finals, there was only a single game that I found entertaining, arguably 1-2 more. I certainly don't want to see a single final that ends like those again. Ahh, but that indicates that you perhaps havent seen games of Flash bedides the SL's? In the SL's he just beat Jaedong with a timing bio/mech on polaris which I found very unorthodox and wildly entertaining and maybe the finals were a bit broig for you, but your statement about becoming a fan of his is false, at least for me. I became fan of this guy when I saw him turtling and just pushing out and kill his opponent, I became fan of him because he beat STORK on katrina, I became fan of him because of his legendary bo5's (vs. lomo, mind, jaedong, fantasy, bisu) I became fan of him when he cheesed bisu the fuck out of the msl? or osl? I BECAME FAN OF HIM BECAUSE THE MAN IS A GOD, HE IS CONSISTENT, SHOWS VARIED PLAY AND IS THE BEST PLAYR OUT THERE. and he is handsome lol. (no homo) and to be quite frankly sir, I think you are maybe a little biased towards Flash (with the skt1 tag and all) and I dont believe you have seen many games from him where he does not just turtle (even if he was just turtling I would stil be fan of him, he is just so cool). | ||
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KTF_CloaK
Netherlands1338 Posts
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invisible.terran
United States280 Posts
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On January 10 2011 16:05 KTF_CloaK wrote: Ahh, but that indicates that you perhaps havent seen games of Flash bedides the SL's? In the SL's he just beat Jaedong with a timing bio/mech on polaris which I found very unorthodox and wildly entertaining and maybe the finals were a bit broig for you, but your statement about becoming a fan of his is false, at least for me. I became fan of this guy when I saw him turtling and just pushing out and kill his opponent, I became fan of him because he beat STORK on katrina, I became fan of him because of his legendary bo5's (vs. lomo, mind, jaedong, fantasy, bisu) I became fan of him when he cheesed bisu the fuck out of the msl? or osl? I BECAME FAN OF HIM BECAUSE THE MAN IS A GOD, HE IS CONSISTENT, SHOWS VARIED PLAY AND IS THE BEST PLAYR OUT THERE. and to be quite frankly sir, I think you are maybe a little biased towards Flash (with the skt1 tag and all) and I dont believe you have seen many games from him where he does not just turtle (even if he was just turtling I would stil be fan of him, he is just so cool). I've seen plenty of Flash games, and quite frankly, I can name very few good games he plays where he wins(only one off the top of my head is Game 2 vs JD at NATE). Results are nice, but they're not the only thing that matters, otherwise everyone would be a Flash fan. It's not diversity of play that really matters to me, it's the quality of those games. Cheese, timing pushes, and turtling is anything but a maker of quality games. Harass-based games and macro games with lots of battles usually provide that. Yes I'm an SKT icon, but why? Is it because I'm protoss? Then why am I a fan of JD/Effort/Savior(pre-fixing)? Do I just hate terrans? To an extent, but why do I still like Leta/Baby/Fantasy/Light? Quite simply, because they all usually add entertainment value to games rather than something only Flash fans could enjoy. | ||
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zenMaster
Canada761 Posts
Flash wins games, but him winning feels like winning a game of SC2. Fantasy wins are very satisfying. | ||
Womwomwom
5930 Posts
Then why am I a fan of JD/Effort/Savior(pre-fixing)? Do I just hate terrans? To an extent, but why do I still like Leta/Baby/Fantasy/Light? Quite simply, because they all usually add entertainment value to games rather than something only Flash fans could enjoy. Entertainment value from Light? Light has sick SK terran but by no means is he particularly interesting in the way you are suggesting, its why he's the invisible terran because he doesn't do a single thing to differentiate himself from every other terran out there. | ||
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ISighZ
United States270 Posts
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On January 10 2011 16:29 Womwomwom wrote: Entertainment value from Light? Light has sick SK terran but by no means is he particularly interesting in the way you are suggesting, its why he's the invisible terran because he doesn't do a single thing to differentiate himself from every other terran out there. His SK Terran is exactly what makes him interesting. It's really awesome to see what TvZ play I'd want to see from Flash in a player. A shame Flash prefers timing attacks. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On January 10 2011 16:17 zenMaster wrote: Cheering for the the favorite is very boring. Fantasy on the other hand is very easy to cheer for. He doesn't win all the time just enough to be the top, he always plays entertaining/unorthodox games. Flash wins games, but him winning feels like winning a game of SC2. Fantasy wins are very satisfying. Yeah, no other players give you the "wow, that seriously just worked, i can't believe it" feeling. This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about: | ||
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J1.au
Australia3596 Posts
On January 10 2011 16:15 Lightwip wrote: I've seen plenty of Flash games, and quite frankly, I can name very few good games he plays where he wins(only one off the top of my head is Game 2 vs JD at NATE). Results are nice, but they're not the only thing that matters, otherwise everyone would be a Flash fan. It's not diversity of play that really matters to me, it's the quality of those games. Cheese, timing pushes, and turtling is anything but a maker of quality games. Harass-based games and macro games with lots of battles usually provide that. Yes I'm an SKT icon, but why? Is it because I'm protoss? Then why am I a fan of JD/Effort/Savior(pre-fixing)? Do I just hate terrans? To an extent, but why do I still like Leta/Baby/Fantasy/Light? Quite simply, because they all usually add entertainment value to games rather than something only Flash fans could enjoy. Flash plays to win. He chooses strategies that give him the highest chance of winning. Every progamer does this. There is no difference in this regard between Flash or Bisu, they both do it. That you hate Flash for winning but love Bisu for winning is very strange. You might argue that Bisu wins in a more entertaining fashion, but that has nothing to do with Bisu and everything to do with the nature of the game and your own personal preferences. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On January 10 2011 17:02 J1.au wrote: Flash plays to win. He chooses strategies that give him the highest chance of winning. Every progamer does this. There is no difference in this regard between Flash or Bisu, they both do it. That you hate Flash for winning but love Bisu for winning is very strange. You might argue that Bisu wins in a more entertaining fashion, but that has nothing to do with Bisu and everything to do with the nature of the game and your own personal preferences. I can't deny that Flash plays to win, and does a good job of it. Yet it doesn't make me like Flash more if he plays to win and does so in a manner makes me hate him for it. On January 10 2011 17:19 Holgerius wrote: Flash can use all styles of play and has been extremely varied during his God era. I have no idea how this type of (nonsensical) criticism can still arise as often as it does. It's laughable, really. Perhaps we are not as fond of his variance as you, my Flash-loving friend. It's not necessarily variance that matters, but rather entertainment value. | ||
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kwkwookw
218 Posts
On January 10 2011 12:26 SubtleArt wrote: Lol some people really have no idea what they're talking about. It was a greedy build which saw him get 6 bases and a large amount of probes off little tech and little army. There was a timing Flash could abuse before bisu began mass gateway macro mode, which, with 6 baess, would have been near impossible to stop. Flash hit the timing before that happened, and thus won. Bisu took a calculated risk, knowing there would be a period where he was really weak but he'd be in an excellant position right after that. Flash just attacked exactly when he needed to. wth that's exactly what i was alluding to. -_-;;; "questionable decision making" as in bisu should have known having 5 expansions so early would mean bisu would be even more unprepared when flash comes out with his timing push. bisu should have cut down on one expansion and positioned his units in the middle of the map ahead so that flash could'nt position his tanks beneath bisu's main in such a good format. bisu did well in the beginning to put flash behind in gas. no matter how you see it, bisu was ahead in the beginning as all the krn commentators were explicitly repeating over and over. and if bisu had incorporated storm, it could have looked a lot different. basically, when you're incorporating a greedy build, the best way to defend the opponent's timing push is through magic casting units since naturally you're going to have less units than the opponent. we all know all bisu had to do to win was defend that one push by flash and he would have won. as you said, bisu took a calculated risk but against flash or against any other progamer in a 7th set circumstance, it'd be foolish to hinge the whole game by taking an overly greedy, rather than greedy risk. yes, i have no effin idea whatsoever wth i'm talking about. -_-^^^^ | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1353 Posts
On January 10 2011 12:26 SubtleArt wrote: Lol some people really have no idea what they're talking about. It was a greedy build which saw him get 6 bases and a large amount of probes off little tech and little army. There was a timing Flash could abuse before bisu began mass gateway macro mode, which, with 6 baess, would have been near impossible to stop. Flash hit the timing before that happened, and thus won. Bisu took a calculated risk, knowing there would be a period where he was really weak but he'd be in an excellant position right after that. Flash just attacked exactly when he needed to. Honestly, I don't think it was even that greedy. Up to that point I felt Bisu had judged what he could and could not get away with pretty well. If he had not made that dud recall that did absolutely nothing, and instead positioned all his men for a flank instead of being pushed all the way to his nat where his army would get neutered on positioning he could well have been able to break that big push. The battle would at least have been really close from what I can tell, and if he did not win it then and there, his chances of finishing off the remains of flashes army with his superior army were probably still very good. I think his decision to avoid the big push break and instead go for the recall cost him the game there. I dunno, but it seems that the biggest problem with Bisu's pvt lately is that he goes for questionable pushbreaks in strange positions, or chooses to give up map control when he should probably attempt a push break. | ||
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