Flash versus Kal. Aztec seems to have favoured Protoss so far. Unfortunately for Kal, unfavourable maps seem to bring out the best in Flash. Very interested for this game!
On December 08 2010 19:20 bearbuddy wrote: Poor Kal, running into Flash the first thing in the afternoon.
The map is 24-10 PvT with no normal protoss player losing on it so far.
Flash will find a way. He always does. Hope at least one STX player can win his match.
I think at least Calm will. And yeah Flash can still find a way, so that he and not Kal is this game's favorite. But to think of him as of a 95% favorite given the map is a mistake i think.
I too thought that Flash will win yesterday because his facial expression was confident and Light's was not.
And then we got the result So I'd not say Kal will lose because his eyes are less confident. And he may have simply not wanted to reveal his thoughts so he put on an indifferent mask )))
But rofl at
I think Kal will win. Flash is currently slumping.
When one lose is slump, that says a lot about a player ))))))))) :DDD
On December 08 2010 19:38 _Quasar_ wrote: I too thought that Flash will win yesterday because his facial expression was confident and Light's was not.
And then we got the result So I'd not say Kal will lose because his eyes are less confident. And he may have simply not wanted to reveal his thoughts so he put on an indifferent mask )))
You really have to wonder what the mentality is of players like Kal when they play players like Flash that they know they've lost to repeatedly in the past. I can imagine a range of possibilities from "Oh fuck! I have to play them again." to "Yes! Another opportunity to redeem myself."
Personally, if I were Kal, I'd be shitting my pants.
does anyone know where to find (if they exist) or have those mini-pics of the maps, that are the same dimensions as those mini-player pics? (so i can put them in between the player pics)
After making a few marines Flash takes his nat. He's building a bunker behind his rax just to be safe. Reaver tech incoming.
Flash makes an ebay, scouting scv almost gets through but is destoryed, shuttle out Flash getting his first factory. Turrets being erected around Flash's base. Second factory being made now
On December 08 2010 19:41 integral wrote: You really have to wonder what the mentality is of players like Kal when they play players like Flash that they know they've lost to repeatedly in the past. I can imagine a range of possibilities from "Oh fuck! I have to play them again." to "Yes! Another opportunity to redeem myself."
It's all speculation ofc, but based on the games I've watched, I believe his dominance over the last year in particular has resulted in a mental advantage that a vast majority of pro-gamers fail to overcome.
Flash is an amazing player, but I swear there are times where players hesitate and fail to go for the jugular b/c they're intimidated by Flash and his record.
I'd like to think that Kal will go in confident that he's playing well, and with little pressure b/c he's playing against the almighty Flash (and therefore not expected to win).
Kal loads up a reaver and dragoon into his shuttle, shuttle making its way to Flash's base. Quite the crowd tonight/.
Machine shop spinning, seige tank out. Reaver and goons hammering away at the bunker, bunker goes down, so does the turret at the nat. Goons move in
Tank seiges up, second bunker there, tank goes down to goon fire, reaver shooting the second bunker. Another tank arrives and seiges up. Kal has his observatory.
Flash rebuilding that turret at his nat. An observer flies through Flash's base and sees everything
Goojila going with a stargate now. Shuttle en route back to Flash's base. Three vultures out scouting the grounds, two reavers unload from the shuttle and pop a vulture. Kal getting his second stargate, he's also getting a fleet beacon
Flash destroys his own bunker. STargates blinking, Flash catches Kal off guard and send his units out to kill a reaver, second reaver loads back into the shuttle. Vults snipe a probe stopping Kal from expanding. Meanwhile Flash takes his 6, Kal taking his 2
Observer sits in the main of Flash and sees the comsat being built. Vultures roaming around the map, snipes another probe after running pass goon fire.
2 carriers are out. Flash sees the carriers after a scan.
Some goons clearing mines in the middle of the map, vults run by goons and get into Kal's third to snipe a few probes, there's a forge there but it doesn't block the bults. Flash adding some facts, looks like he has 6 currently.
Kal getting his adun while expanding to 11.5 Vults laying mines yet again this time closer to his 6 4 carriers on the move, Flash has a few goliaths Vults once again raid Kals 2.5
Not sure if that pylon wall in was intended to work like (so dragoons can pop in and stop drops for example) that but Kal is losing probes from that expo because vultures keep slipping in.
Carriers stopped by ebay, meanwhile goliaths snipe a shuttle but not before it releases its units. Reaver dies to goliaths. Flash taking the 10 mineral only right next to Kals 11
Flash moving out with his force, Kal running his army right by Flash's
They move up the ramp, flash's army still below the ramp, Kal moving right into Kal's nat, armory survives, carriers flee as flash's army arrives, carriers move left and attack 6
Kal making more carriers, he forces a lift at 6, Flash advancing on Kals third. Goliaths trying to take down the carriers. Flash attacking the third and the nat!
Carriers being microed hard, Flash seiging up at the nat, he's able to hit gateways and another at the nat
Kal's carriers are being forced inside Flash's main, barely misses a line of turrets. Kal expanding to 8. Carriers snipe a lone tank at Kal's third. Not sure if kal knows about flash's 10
More units show up at Kal's third, lone DT trying to snipe some units, scan goes off and dt dies.
Kal's third still being hit, gang of vultures find 8 and destory the single cannon, probes trying to do some damage to the vults. Carriers defending kal's third. Kal's 8 o clock base is under fire from vults though. Single dt stalling Flash's 6
Carriers snipe a CC! they are now targeting turrets in Flash's main
Carriers sniping goliaths now, a few fall but there are still quite a number. Kal's carriers are doing a decent job. He's in the main now killing a few buildings. Kal manages to get 8 back online. CC at the main falls to carriers. Flash still mining from three bases though. Pure goliaths at kal's third, Nexus goes down to goliath fire.
Yeah, pretty fail by Kal. I think the mistake of all Flash opponents, is that they want to finish him quick, and every time they fail, Flash either waits for their mistake or timepushes when they are not ready. Flash lost lategame many times, so maybe its not the antique strats that can beat him, but something that different?
Kal's 8 is again being raided by vultures. Kal sniping buildings as he flies pass them, he's going for another floating CC, CC explodes midair, Flash loses 6. Still has a large force of goliaths though, DTs spot 10, cc forced to lift there
Flash desperately trying to rebuild a cc at 5 mineral only
GG from Flash as there are still a large force of carriers!
On December 08 2010 20:01 letian wrote: Yeah, pretty fail by Kal. I think the mistake of all Flash opponents, is that they want to finish him quick, and every time they fail, Flash either waits for their mistake or timepushes when they are not ready. Flash lost lategame many times, so maybe its not the antique strats that can beat him, but something that different?
On December 08 2010 20:03 Spazer wrote: So did kal ever find that ninja expo? I think that area of the map was still dark on his minimap when I saw it last...
He found it near the end, sent DTs there. Flash didn't have scan so the DTs reigned supreme and Flash wasn't mining anywhere on the map.
On December 08 2010 20:03 Spazer wrote: So did kal ever find that ninja expo? I think that area of the map was still dark on his minimap when I saw it last...
Yeah, he put DTs to work on it when Flash didn't have any detection.
On December 08 2010 20:03 Spazer wrote: So did kal ever find that ninja expo? I think that area of the map was still dark on his minimap when I saw it last...
so dark that DTs easily sneaked in and forced flash to lift off
I dunno flash's gameplan, but I think Kal's build was perfect. Even when Flash seeing it all (scan on carriers) he could do NOTHING. Probably Kal prepared this very, very hard.
With the initial reaver front attack, it was super late armory for Flash. And these carriers just abused it.
And if Flash didn't build 3rd, he would fall behind in economy. That's just a very, very good build and gameplan by Kal.
Impressive stuff from Kal. I should be in bed, but this just proves that BW > sleep.
Loved the late DT switch, but more than that I was really impressed with Kal's Carrier control and good decision-making to avoid getting them surrounded by those shameless Gol's. Long live the noble Carrier!!!!
On December 08 2010 20:06 elsx wrote: Kal actually managing to win against an S-class player, good job man.
I still don't think he has a chance in a BoX match though.
Do people call Kal near-S instead of S class?
I don't think he will drop in group and will certainly make Ro4. Whether he makes the finals depends on the other dudes I think. I don't know what you're on about predicting he won't win his BoX games.
On December 08 2010 20:08 Womwomwom wrote: Rather risky move to go for a base trade like that, did Flash ever know about Kal's 11 o'clock? Never seemed like it from his actions anyway.
I don't think so. It would explain why he kept his forces at Kal's natural instead of defending. If he knew that Kal had another expo, the strategy didn't make sense.
I'm surprised so many people recommended that game. It's only because Flash was playing that that game was even slightly close. No Terran has won a non-prelimary game on that map. Well done Flash for trying.
On December 08 2010 20:06 elsx wrote: Kal actually managing to win against an S-class player, good job man.
I still don't think he has a chance in a BoX match though.
Do people call Kal near-S instead of S class?
I don't think he will drop in group and will certainly make Ro4. Whether he makes the finals depends on the other dudes I think. I don't know what you're on about predicting he won't win his BoX games.
Players like Kal and Leta are often said to be the benchmark for S-Class. As in these two players consistently win against the rest of the pack.
On December 08 2010 20:08 Womwomwom wrote: Rather risky move to go for a base trade like that, did Flash ever know about Kal's 11 o'clock? Never seemed like it from his actions anyway.
I don't think so. It would explain why he kept his forces at Kal's natural instead of defending. If he knew that Kal had another expo, the strategy didn't make sense.
Pretty sure he knew Kal had that expo ... there's nothing he can do about that expo at that location. The strategy still makes sense when in theory you take out two bases with that push but one problem was that Flash didn't micro and kill off Kal's third the first time and had to go back and kill it later.
On December 08 2010 20:08 Womwomwom wrote: Rather risky move to go for a base trade like that, did Flash ever know about Kal's 11 o'clock? Never seemed like it from his actions anyway.
I don't think so. It would explain why he kept his forces at Kal's natural instead of defending. If he knew that Kal had another expo, the strategy didn't make sense.
Pretty sure he knew Kal had that expo ... there's nothing he can do about that expo at that location. The strategy still makes sense when in theory you take out two bases with that push but one problem was that Flash didn't micro and kill off Kal's third the first time and had to go back and kill it later.
Yeah, but why didn't he bring back his forces to defend against the carriers? They were doing nothing patrolling the center for a long time.
On December 08 2010 20:10 J1.au wrote: I'm surprised so many people recommended that game. It's only because Flash was playing that that game was even slightly close. No Terran has won a non-prelimary game on that map. Well done Flash for trying.
Realistically any time Flash loses it's going to be recommended. It's such a rare thing nowadays that it's always going to be a big deal for people (unless you're a Flash fan).
Shame Flash got paired with Kal on such an awful map for the matchup. I much prefer games like the ones they have on fighting spirit, and not just when you can make carriers and waltz them around your opponent's bases like nothing because of the bajillion cliffs.
On December 08 2010 20:10 J1.au wrote: I'm surprised so many people recommended that game. It's only because Flash was playing that that game was even slightly close. No Terran has won a non-prelimary game on that map. Well done Flash for trying.
Well I could just remind that there was and is a player that still wasn't and isn't shaken by unfavorable maps, so thats not an excuse, especially for Flash, Kal played well today it was enough to win Flash.
On December 08 2010 20:10 J1.au wrote: I'm surprised so many people recommended that game. It's only because Flash was playing that that game was even slightly close. No Terran has won a non-prelimary game on that map. Well done Flash for trying.
I'm not sure that map is as bad as the statistics are making it look right now. There's been very few games with good T's playing. But it definitely looks tough, like if Protoss pulls off the early game with any success it'll be tough for Terran to stop Carriers.
On December 08 2010 20:13 radadaundandan wrote: I am afraid that Kal just woke the sleeping lion. Flash is gonna get so motivated this season... 4 OSL incoming!
sleeping? ))) I think Flash works even harder to be in such form, these victories that look so easy for us, cost a lot more hard work than we may imagine
On December 08 2010 20:08 Womwomwom wrote: Rather risky move to go for a base trade like that, did Flash ever know about Kal's 11 o'clock? Never seemed like it from his actions anyway.
I don't think so. It would explain why he kept his forces at Kal's natural instead of defending. If he knew that Kal had another expo, the strategy didn't make sense.
Pretty sure he knew Kal had that expo ... there's nothing he can do about that expo at that location. The strategy still makes sense when in theory you take out two bases with that push but one problem was that Flash didn't micro and kill off Kal's third the first time and had to go back and kill it later.
Yeah, but why didn't he bring back his forces to defend against the carriers? They were doing nothing patrolling the center for a long time.
Seems like once the Carriers get in you have very little chance of ever killing them. Flash never achieved the critical mass and upgrades necessary to kill interceptors quickly. Maybe he was just hoping Kal would roll back and he'd catch some Carriers?
Flash really shouldn't have gone for that first trade when it was 3 base vs 3 base. Had he just macroed up for a few production rounds he would have had it. Even so, he so rarely makes mistakes that I'm happy to have it happen in the group stages and not later.
On December 08 2010 20:17 HopLight wrote: Flash really shouldn't have gone for that first trade when it was 3 base vs 3 base. Had he just macroed up for a few production rounds he would have had it. Even so, he so rarely makes mistakes that I'm happy to have it happen in the group stages and not later.
Base trading almost never works out for Terran in TvP though. It's so much easier for Protoss to just keep making units and eventually break any contain. It was a tough situation no matter what ... not often that you see Flash successfully pull off a hidden expo (he had it basically the entire game) and still lose.
On December 08 2010 20:17 HopLight wrote: Flash really shouldn't have gone for that first trade when it was 3 base vs 3 base. Had he just macroed up for a few production rounds he would have had it. Even so, he so rarely makes mistakes that I'm happy to have it happen in the group stages and not later.
Base trading almost never works out for Terran in TvP though. It's so much easier for Protoss to just keep making units and eventually break any contain. It was a tough situation no matter what ... not often that you see Flash successfully pull off a hidden expo (he had it basically the entire game) and still lose.
It was weird to watch. I was thinking "refugee Terran ... I've never heard of that." I guess there is a reason.
On December 08 2010 20:17 HopLight wrote: Flash really shouldn't have gone for that first trade when it was 3 base vs 3 base. Had he just macroed up for a few production rounds he would have had it. Even so, he so rarely makes mistakes that I'm happy to have it happen in the group stages and not later.
Keep thinking you understand this game better than flash -.-
On December 08 2010 20:17 HopLight wrote: Flash really shouldn't have gone for that first trade when it was 3 base vs 3 base. Had he just macroed up for a few production rounds he would have had it. Even so, he so rarely makes mistakes that I'm happy to have it happen in the group stages and not later.
Base trading almost never works out for Terran in TvP though. It's so much easier for Protoss to just keep making units and eventually break any contain. It was a tough situation no matter what ... not often that you see Flash successfully pull off a hidden expo (he had it basically the entire game) and still lose.
It was weird to watch. I was thinking "refugee Terran ... I've never heard of that." I guess there is a reason.
The way I see it, the player who's "supposed" to have more bases to be ahead can play refugee. In a normal pvt, p has more bases, but with carriers, t has more bases.
On December 08 2010 20:20 fatguyallen wrote: Can someone tell me please which song is playing before the players enter the game ? I really need to find out
On December 08 2010 20:17 HopLight wrote: Flash really shouldn't have gone for that first trade when it was 3 base vs 3 base. Had he just macroed up for a few production rounds he would have had it. Even so, he so rarely makes mistakes that I'm happy to have it happen in the group stages and not later.
Base trading almost never works out for Terran in TvP though. It's so much easier for Protoss to just keep making units and eventually break any contain. It was a tough situation no matter what ... not often that you see Flash successfully pull off a hidden expo (he had it basically the entire game) and still lose.
It was weird to watch. I was thinking "refugee Terran ... I've never heard of that." I guess there is a reason.
The way I see it, the player who's "supposed" to have more bases to be ahead can play refugee. In a normal pvt, p has more bases, but with carriers, t has more bases.
Problem is it's so hard to kill Carriers and if you lose your main it's really really expensive to rebuild your Factories. Carriers will beat Goliaths eventually if the Goliaths can't maintain a critical mass - you're trading Interceptors which only cost minerals for gas.
It's way easier for P to refugee because they can make a ton of Gateways with one Probe and Gateways only cost minerals (gas is usually the big constraint when you have to rebuild all your tech buildings and other stuff).
Edit: Also Carriers can just go straight to any base and basically kill it outright unless there are enough Goliaths. Terran can almost never just march into a Protoss main and kill it because the constant wave of Zealots coming out of the Gateways alone will make it very cost ineffective, and mech doesn't have very good DPS against buildings. Basically you have to be way ahead to march into a Protoss main, but Protoss can go into any Terran base and tear it up quickly, whether it's with Zealot/Dragoon or just Carriers.
On December 08 2010 20:20 fatguyallen wrote: Can someone tell me please which song is playing before the players enter the game ? I really need to find out
looks like 12 pool, both take their gases, Overlords pass each other Both now placing their hatcheries at their nats Hogil sending his zerglings out towards calm, calm has zerglings of his own.
calm making a ling wall, while Hogil is massing zerglings, he has a few more than calm. Zerglings jumping back and fourth, they engage, and calm comes out on top.
Hogil doesn't look happy. Calm's lair has finished Hogil's lair finishes, calm getting his spire down
Hogil has an overlord over each of Calm's hatches, he knows what;s going on. Hogil sending more zerglings, calm defends with his. Spire almost done, sunken placed at the nat making it harder for hogil to break.
Hogil places his spire down just as calm's finishes. Hogil doesn't have much time
On December 08 2010 20:20 fatguyallen wrote: Can someone tell me please which song is playing before the players enter the game ? I really need to find out
Man this is such a key game for Stork comming up. He should beat Mind, because if he does not, he have really hard game vs Sea and also a pvz that is not his biggest streanght.
Nope Stork need to pull this win to have a good chance to get out of his group. Fail and I think Stork can say bye bye to OSL.
On December 08 2010 20:32 purpose wrote: Man this is such a key game for Stork comming up. He should beat Mind, because if he does not, he have really hard game vs Sea and also a pvz that is not his biggest streanght.
Nope Stork need to pull this win to have a good chance to get out of his group. Fail and I think Stork can say bye bye to OSL.
Stork get kicked out of OSL this early? No way. Stork can take out Mind and Sea in a 1v2 game anytime. And Stork has a solid PvZ. He's 13-12 vs. Jaedong so I'm sure any other Zerg he faces will have a tough time beating him. Especially a scrubby cheeser like Shine.
No, that's exactly why Stork will have a hard time if he loses against Mind. Sea is no slouch at any matchup and Stork's PvZ is extremely erratic and sloppy a lot of the time.
On December 08 2010 20:32 purpose wrote: Man this is such a key game for Stork comming up. He should beat Mind, because if he does not, he have really hard game vs Sea and also a pvz that is not his biggest streanght.
Nope Stork need to pull this win to have a good chance to get out of his group. Fail and I think Stork can say bye bye to OSL.
Stork get kicked out of OSL this early? No way. Stork can take out Mind and Sea in a 1v2 game anytime. And Stork has a solid PvZ. He's 13-12 vs. Jaedong so I'm sure any other Zerg he faces will have a tough time beating him. Especially a scrubby cheeser like Shine.
Stork is especially good against the Dong but in PvZ he's never a sure thing. I think Shine's style counters Stork extremely well (Stork is all about later game PvZ big army control) and might be the favorite to win that.
On December 08 2010 20:32 purpose wrote: Man this is such a key game for Stork comming up. He should beat Mind, because if he does not, he have really hard game vs Sea and also a pvz that is not his biggest streanght.
Nope Stork need to pull this win to have a good chance to get out of his group. Fail and I think Stork can say bye bye to OSL.
Stork get kicked out of OSL this early? No way. Stork can take out Mind and Sea in a 1v2 game anytime. And Stork has a solid PvZ. He's 13-12 vs. Jaedong so I'm sure any other Zerg he faces will have a tough time beating him. Especially a scrubby cheeser like Shine.
Stork is especially good against the Dong but in PvZ he's never a sure thing. I think Shine's style counters Stork extremely well (Stork is all about later game PvZ big army control) and might be the favorite to win that.
Stork is interesting in that he is about 50% to win PvZ against any zerg, be it shine, jaedong or killer. If he could just play on the level he plays on vs JD he'd have won a lot more titles.
Sea is TvP specialist Terran (TvP winrate > TvZ winrate). He should be a very, very tough opponent to stork. Oh wtf i'm writing. I must have looked at his winrate.
On December 08 2010 20:42 _Quasar_ wrote: Sea is TvP specialist Terran (TvP winrate > TvZ winrate). He should be a very, very tough opponent to stork. Oh wtf i'm writing. I must have looked at his winrate.
sea is not a specialist. he's considered pretty well rounded. however, he gets really flustered easily and is basically crap when shit doesn't go his way. plus this is the individual leagues. stork should win easy.
Though stork is good at pvt and took sea out of last OSL 2-0 if I dont remember wrong.
Still in these group stages with bo1 games its alot harder. 1 slip like flash had today can be so painfull.....well unless you actually are flash and then its just you decide to not fuck up in the 2 comming games and get out of the group anyway.
foreigner with a sign saying he's storks number 1 western fan
Stork going gate>core Mind getting his rax down, his scout arrives at Storks base, zealot pops and starts chasing the scv Factory started for Mind
Scouting probe has not found Mind's base yet. First marine pops, core is spinning. Dragoon finishes and joins the zealot is ridding the scout Adun for Stork
Mind with 5 marines protecting his ramp, machine shop added, robo warping in with the temp archive, DT drop Probe sees Mind putting down his CC at his nat, marines remove the probe from existence.
Temp archive finishes along with stork's second gate. Tanks and vult join the marines outside Mind's nat, Mind puts down an ebay
Shuttle out and loads up the DTs, turrets being erected around Mind's base, shuttle spotted by vult, DT dropped and kills a marine, scv also falls to a DT, DT now concentrating on a depot.
Shuttle flying around the nat, gets another scv and two marines too. acadamy finished for Mind, DT almost gets the depot, mines force it to move
Stork adding another gateway, he's also taken his nat, observatory also finished. Mines litter the front of Mind's nat. Mind has another fact (2 in total) he's also getting his armory
Vult roaming the map in search of bases and laying mines in empty expos. Goons attack 6, turret goes down, so does a depot. Tanks seige up, the goons back away
Starport and sci facility finished. First arbiter is out. Mind has a dropship, he unloads two vults and a tank, tank killing probes, zealots deal with the tank, vults lay some mines, single zealot dies to all the mines
single vulture stops stork from expanding at 12 by sniping the probe. CC finished inside main and is lifted, moving to take 8. stork taking the 3.5
First recall in mind's main, takes out some depots and turrets. Mind's army rushes back. A lot of depots down. Arbiter cloaking the recalled army to take out some tanks. Scan goes off to take out a few goons. Still 6 goons killing a fact in mind's main.
Stork has his second force ready, small army of goons attacking Mind's 8 but it's cleared by vults. Stork has his 12 o'clock up.
No pylon wall allows vults to waltz right in, but there are goons and cannons so it's safe for now. emp hits the arbiter but not before a stasis goes off
second stasis hits a large clump of units. Stork advances and wipes out a lot of units.
Stork all up in mind's nat. Target firing the armories, both go down! couple of goons hitting 6 at the same time.
On December 08 2010 21:04 bokchoi wrote: LOL Mind.. oh Mind. Just keep throwing the game away.
I don't think he did, he basically lost depots.
It's hard to ask for much more though, in modern PvT... maybe an armory too if you get lucky.
Watch it again and you will see his goons sit there for a full movement without micro.
True. I wasn't sure if he was holding position there purposely to try and take down more units with the Arbiter+Goon combo, or if it was a mistake. I guess I was comparing it to my play sometimes, where the recalled units go straight for defending units, running through mines and fire all the way, and in the end I take down just a few units, and no supply depots, in which case I'd be much happier taking down 7-8 depots.
Second recall! depots go down and so does a turret, few units died to mines though force is cleaned up
Dropship with two tanks hit 12, meanwhile stasis over vessels and units, tanks not seiged, Mind retreating, single tank hitting 12 and doing quite some damage for a lone tank.
Mind microing his tanks hard, emp over the HT Mind still overpowered by stork's army, he retreats for now, storm over some tanks
Stork just rolling with zealots Stork kills the units after stasis wears off
stork taking another expo, Mind's main almost mined out
Stork advancing to Mind's main, he doesn't have enough units to defend this and he probably won't survive this attack Stork all up in his nat, cc goes down
Stork really has some of the best PvT around. It was pretty sick watching Stork beat Mind.
also, I woke up to check the results so far, and I thought "wouldn't it be funny if Kal beat Flash?" needless to say, I had a good laugh this morning. =)
Stork was up on supply for quite awhile, but Mind seemed to keep up the macro to not fall too far behind (and/or start to catch up again) but the fights didn't go his way and eventually Stork overran him.
Anyway, Fantasy time! Barely awake enough to watch, haha.
On December 08 2010 21:22 Crunchums wrote: modesty gonna get crushed, lol
Modesty with the sick 35% vT stats. Admittedly he hasn't played a lot of games and the ones he has played were against Flash/Leta/Baby etc. Anyway, gonna be interesting to see how this turns out
On December 08 2010 20:20 fatguyallen wrote: Can someone tell me please which song is playing before the players enter the game ? I really need to find out
Linkin Park - Wretches and Kings
Thanks for the response but i wasn't reffering to the intro song, but the song played exactly before starting the game of sc
fantasy: "you're going 2 hatch muta... right?" modesty: "it's going to be fun to play against fantasy, who's playing well nowadays. i will win. fighting!"
On December 08 2010 21:33 konadora wrote: fantasy: "you're going 2 hatch muta... right?" modesty: "it's going to be fun to play against fantasy, who's playing well nowadays. i will win. fighting!"
12 hatch for Modesty, spawning pool goes down shortly Rax finished for Fantasy scouting scv steals some minerals
First marine out and stands guard at the nat as Fanta takes his nat. Lair in the making
4 zerglings pop to remove that scv but it's doing a good job evading the lings for now Fantasy puts down his second rax as he transfers scvs, acadamy started.
Bunker being built at the nat, Modesty sends a drone to build a hatch at 4
Mutas snipe two turrets before focusing on some marines and meds, some nice muta micro displayed from Modesty
Fantasy adding rax, wow mutas getting quite a few scvs.
Mutas once again on the attack and snipe a few more units, Fantasy making his factory now. Mutas focusing on turrets, all three behind the min line go down
Ebay goes down too, really nice muta micro from Modesty
Starport finished, ebay being rebuilt, more units being killed at the main, mutas with +1 cara
Fantasy not mining at his main, these mutas seem to be really giving him trouble
armory in the making. More mnm die to mutas Mutas being their assault at the nat, bunker barely able to reach the mutas.
Another hatch added to Mod's main, hydra den up, evo chamber being made. Still no mining at the main for fantasy, Fanta opting for a valk to fight off the mutas
three overlords making their way to Fantasy's main, five actually slowly very slowly but surely they're making it there.
Lurkers dropped, 6 of them they hit the mine line, scvs scramble but a lot die. Meanwhile drop ship drops at 4 and kills all the drones, hatchery also about to go down if nothing is done. Mutas and hydra/ling arrive to save the hatch
CC lifted at the main
Ahhh mnm surrounded by lings, few escape
Lings attacknig the nat, omg Fantasy in a world of trouble
Lurkers burrow at the nat, scvs run, his cc is lifted in his main and there are lurkers killing depots in the main!
Fantasy doing a drop at the nat, defilers! swarm up in fanta's main
Nothing better than a player I like beating my least favorite player. I do sort of hope Fantasy leaves the group with Modesty though. It's always good to have the villain in the running for a while. Now that I say that I'm sure he's going to win the whole fucking thing...
On December 08 2010 21:52 ffswowsucks wrote: This is a FAILURE, fantasy losing to this random Zerg when yesterday he pwned ZerO. I cant stand seeing top players losing to unknowns.
Had a feeling STX would take all of their games today. Maybe I didn't know it a few hours ago but when I saw the lineup at the beginning of the broadcast I was like "ok here it comes".
I think Kal and Modesty anyway DESERVE an appreciation for their excellent builds they've done in their games, the builds imho were key to victory. And Modesty also showed some brilliant tactics in battles and good micro. Though at one moment I thought it would slip from his hands. And an oldschool lurker slow drop was just OMFG WTF. O_O ---> ^_^ Both games totally recommended to all Zergs and Protosses respectfully.
On December 08 2010 22:46 CruelZeratul wrote: Does this mean Flash is out of the OSL, or is ist just harder for him to advance to elimination?
This is not the GSL. 2 people advance from the group and this was just the first of his 3 matches in that particular group. It's simply a slight bit more difficult for him to advance.
On December 08 2010 22:46 CruelZeratul wrote: Does this mean Flash is out of the OSL, or is ist just harder for him to advance to elimination?
Flash still has to play vs paralyze and hyuk which should be easy money (suppsosedly) so I wouldn't worry about him advancing. Kal is like almost guaranteed to go to Ro8 now though.
On December 08 2010 22:46 CruelZeratul wrote: Does this mean Flash is out of the OSL, or is ist just harder for him to advance to elimination?
Harder to advance. OSL Round of 16s are always played in a round robin format where each group of 4 people play each other once. Two people with the most wins in their group go to the next round.
If Hyuk is 0-3 and Flash is 1-2, then no way Flash can advance.
Then Kal and Afrotoss go 3-0 and 2-1 (or 2-1 and 3-0 kkk) and advance, no tiebreak If it ever happens that Flash 1-2 then he requires Hyuk win a game to force a tiebreak.
On December 08 2010 20:03 okum wrote: I'll just blame map imba.
I found this post amusing because everyone always talks about how Bisu/Stork shouldn't complain about map imba until someone they like loses. Seriously, with maps like Odd Eye last season(and PR for vZ), terrans can't really complain about maps.
I found out that Flash vs Paralyze play on Pathfinder. That's gonna be a weird game O_o Maybe Afrotoss goes some gay build, there is a huge space for these things on that map kkkkk
On December 08 2010 23:03 _Quasar_ wrote: If Hyuk is 0-3 and Flash is 1-2, then no way Flash can advance.
Then Kal and Afrotoss go 3-0 and 2-1 (or 2-1 and 3-0 kkk) and advance, no tiebreak If it ever happens that Flash 1-2 then he requires Hyuk win a game to force a tiebreak.
On December 08 2010 19:48 vectorix108 wrote: oh god kal you better make these carriers work
Stork "Kal doesn't know how to carrier"
Who the F*** is Stork and dares to say to Kal how to play? i bet he had really good timing to risking carriers that early and he can win this OSL.
The target for Goojila is to win the next 2 games in his group nothing else.
lol I dont think stork actually said that, it's just something we'd imagine he might say. The closest would have been when flash said something to the effect of "stork is the only toss who knows how to use carriers", or something like that
Had fantasy won this would be the best night ever. I still see him getting our of his group. provided he doesnt turn the failngine on when playing hydra. Free could be hard, but fanta's tvp is godly.
Free seems kinda shaky as of late and hydra.. well.. i dont know, doesnt seem as seaasoned as fantasy or free. He can bring a good game but i trust fantasy to take that game.
Stork v. Mind was a ~win/win situation. Good to see Stork's TvP up to par. Kind of disappointing to see Mind's vP deteriorate though. What happened there?
And LOL @ Modesty. This is kind of cool seeing as I tabbed Modesty in my FPL. Though by that very same logic, Flash losing to Kal kind of sucks, but Kal's a good player and he's played some damn close games with Flash, so I'm not TOO surprised.
I think, since there's Hydra in his group, and Modesty is good at ZvZ, he has now very good chances to advance.
But Fantasy is an odd terran to have TvP better than TvZ! He is pretty much a favorite against free i think. And Hydra... lol, I'm just massively rooting against him, he fucking did BO win against Jaedong, bastard! >_<
Hope for Modesty and Fanta advancing
But LOL if Modesty > Fanta > free > Modesty, that will be epic. All that will matter will be their result vs Hydra then :D
Hahaha, oh god, is it CSheep's birthday or something? Kal looks so goddamn happy after every win, he puts an auto-smirk on my face whenever I see that ear to ear grin. I'm all for more Flash losses and more Stork wins.
On December 09 2010 09:37 Lightwip wrote: For once, it's the terrans that get screwed over hard in a single day. Not too fond of Fantasy losing, but many a terran(read:Flash) are hard to like.
Please watch and say what's not to like
I guess I understand that some people might hate him for his turtle like nature, (see Flash vs Zero), but his skills are amazing and Boxer would be proud of his micro... and don't even mention his macro
On December 09 2010 09:37 Lightwip wrote: For once, it's the terrans that get screwed over hard in a single day. Not too fond of Fantasy losing, but many a terran(read:Flash) are hard to like.
Please watch and say what's not to like
I guess I understand that some people might hate him for his turtle like nature, (see Flash vs Zero), but his skills are amazing and Boxer would be proud of his micro... and don't even mention his macro
A few things. 1. His fans are pretty annoying(pretty minor reason, all fans are annoying as shit if you're not too fond of the player). 2. I never found his play too inspiring. Granted, there's a lot of stuff he does that makes me say, "I sure want to try that sometime," but Bisu and Jaedong(to a lesser extent, Fantasy and Stork) want to make me play their race and be good. That's quite a bit more impressive. 3. I probably have a natural bias against non-SKT/oldschool terran. 4. Turtling annoys me. 5. He keeps winning stuff I don't want him to. That being said, I'll take a look at your video.
On December 09 2010 09:37 Lightwip wrote: For once, it's the terrans that get screwed over hard in a single day. Not too fond of Fantasy losing, but many a terran(read:Flash) are hard to like.
I guess I understand that some people might hate him for his turtle like nature, (see Flash vs Zero), but his skills are amazing and Boxer would be proud of his micro... and don't even mention his macro
First part of the video was 2 scenes of him abusing repair, and overwhelming some goons with a huge number of vultures. Then i shut it off after a couple not too spectacular vZ clips. Micro? Flanking? Yes he has godly micro and flanking skills, but it isn't anything we haven't seen from Hwasin, Light, current Fantasy, or any other decent TvZers. I may be biased, but Fantasy vs Flying/Zero just a day ago had me tear up over his awesomeness. + Show Spoiler +
Any Terran could have sieged up with tanks and vults and destroyed flying's nat, but Fantasy opted to treat his fans rather than sieging up like Flash would have done.
That is why Terrans like Fantasy generally more liked. Flash just does whatever he has to do win, and most of the time it means sieging up in his own base, which no BW fan enjoys watching.
What the heck is with this Flash hate. The guy gets the limitations and the play styles of terran. He understands the timings perfectly, makes the right transitions, and smash his opponents because he understands these things. Flash hasn't turtled in a very long time and bios more often than he mechs.
His fans are not any more annoying than Jaedong or Bisu's fan-- the only difference is that he has been winning titles and thus warrants such praise. On the flip side, when Bisu loses a game there's either complaints about being cheesy (see: Shine) or map imbalance. When Jaedong loses a game it's either BO loss or map imbalance. When Flash lose, it's no different-- it's being cheesed or map imbalance... except we never hear the end of it like that one game Best won against Flash.
On December 09 2010 14:08 bearbuddy wrote: What the heck is with this Flash hate. The guy gets the limitations and the play styles of terran. He understands the timings perfectly, makes the right transitions, and smash his opponents because he understands these things. Flash hasn't turtled in a very long time and bios more often than he mechs.
His fans are not any more annoying than Jaedong or Bisu's fan-- the only difference is that he has been winning titles and thus warrants such praise. On the flip side, when Bisu loses a game there's either complaints about being cheesy (see: Shine) or map imbalance. When Jaedong loses a game it's either BO loss or map imbalance. When Flash lose, it's no different-- it's being cheesed or map imbalance... except we never hear the end of it like that one game Best won against Flash.
Personally, i believe best won because Flash was out of form (just returned from WCG). Jaedong losing ZvZ is straight forward fail from him. Bisu loss to Shine was poor decision making.
On December 09 2010 14:38 infinitestory wrote: Flash does what's worked in the past, only to near perfection.
Players like Fantasy try new things which may or may not work well. (e.g. early +1 bio push vZ)
Not new? Flash revolutionized TvP. You're a translator, I'm pretty sure you know that the Chinese community calls Flash religion founder/leader and totally changed the dynamics of Terran upgrades against Protoss.
Fantasy, on the other hand, we don't know how much of his shenanigans he got from Oov.
On December 09 2010 14:38 infinitestory wrote: Flash does what's worked in the past, only to near perfection.
Players like Fantasy try new things which may or may not work well. (e.g. early +1 bio push vZ)
Complete garbage. Flash has contributed so much to Terran play and is constantly evolving his style to stay ahead of the competition. It's just not as obvious to the average spectator as Fantasy's overt creativity and since when is an early +1 bio push new?
On December 09 2010 14:50 bearbuddy wrote:Fantasy, on the other hand, we don't know how much of his shenanigans he got from Oov.
I wouldn't say that it subtracts anything from him even if all of his builds were made by oov. Starcraft is a team effort, or else players wouldn't play in teams. And a good portion of being successful is making a build viable. And there's no way oov could possibly make any of his builds viable.
On December 09 2010 09:37 Lightwip wrote: For once, it's the terrans that get screwed over hard in a single day. Not too fond of Fantasy losing, but many a terran(read:Flash) are hard to like.
Please watch and say what's not to like
I guess I understand that some people might hate him for his turtle like nature, (see Flash vs Zero), but his skills are amazing and Boxer would be proud of his micro... and don't even mention his macro
A few things. 1. His fans are pretty annoying(pretty minor reason, all fans are annoying as shit if you're not too fond of the player). 2. I never found his play too inspiring. Granted, there's a lot of stuff he does that makes me say, "I sure want to try that sometime," but Bisu and Jaedong(to a lesser extent, Fantasy and Stork) want to make me play their race and be good. That's quite a bit more impressive. 3. I probably have a natural bias against non-SKT/oldschool terran. 4. Turtling annoys me. 5. He keeps winning stuff I don't want him to. That being said, I'll take a look at your video.
1. I think all fans are annoying in general. That said, I'm guilty as well. But then again, without the stupid annoying fans, e-sports or life wouldn't be the same 2. Funny, cause I find Flash's and Stork's play a lot more inspiring lol. I guess it comes down to perspective and play style. 3. Not gonna judge you or anything. I'll respect your interests 4. Yeah, but Flash has been extremely aggressive as of late (especially with zerg) Sure he goes back to turtle terran ways, but at least he doesn't turtle like he used to. 5. This made me lol.
Flash is definitely portrayed as a villain (possibly hated even more than oov). He has only been getting a lot of praise recently. Even after beating JD in 2 straight finals people were still predicting 3-0 and 3-1 victories for JD in the last OSL. Only after the last OSL was his skill actually acknowledged. I have a question though: was there map imbalance involved in Flash and Fantasy's losses? If map imbalance ever affects JD or Bisu, there's so much bitching involved, yet when Flash and Fantasy lose all the credit goes towards their opponent? I don't get why the moment a map is SLIGHTLY terran favoured, there's a HUGE array of bitching (see Polaris Rapsody, and even then that wasn't that Terran favoured according to the stats?) yet when there's a map that HUGELY favours P or Z (e.g. central plains, dreamliner) no one complains? And don't get me wrong, I'm not a blind Terran fan boy, I love modesty (particularly his ZvZ). Kal, eh, not so much.
On December 09 2010 14:38 infinitestory wrote: Flash does what's worked in the past, only to near perfection.
Players like Fantasy try new things which may or may not work well. (e.g. early +1 bio push vZ)
Did you just come back from having stopped watching SC:BW in early 2009 or are you just rehashing the opinions of other people who did? Flash has redefined the way all terran matchups are played, and has used more unorthodox strategies than anyone else in the last 1+ year.
And +1 bio push "new", rofl.
At least some people have the honesty to admit that the reason they don't like Flash is that he "wins too much".
On December 09 2010 14:50 bearbuddy wrote:Fantasy, on the other hand, we don't know how much of his shenanigans he got from Oov.
I wouldn't say that it subtracts anything from him even if all of his builds were made by oov. Starcraft is a team effort, or else players wouldn't play in teams. And a good portion of being successful is making a build viable. And there's no way oov could possibly make any of his builds viable.
Just saying. The perception that Flash is an mechanic player while Fantasy is this brimming beacon of originality is simply not true. Flash just so good at dismantling his opponents that all the rape seems about the same.
On December 09 2010 16:52 radialis wrote: Flash is definitely portrayed as a villain (possibly hated even more than oov). He has only been getting a lot of praise recently. Even after beating JD in 2 straight finals people were still predicting 3-0 and 3-1 victories for JD in the last OSL. Only after the last OSL was his skill actually acknowledged. I have a question though: was there map imbalance involved in Flash and Fantasy's losses? If map imbalance ever affects JD or Bisu, there's so much bitching involved, yet when Flash and Fantasy lose all the credit goes towards their opponent? I don't get why the moment a map is SLIGHTLY terran favoured, there's a HUGE array of bitching (see Polaris Rapsody, and even then that wasn't that Terran favoured according to the stats?) yet when there's a map that HUGELY favours P or Z (e.g. central plains, dreamliner) no one complains? And don't get me wrong, I'm not a blind Terran fan boy, I love modesty (particularly his ZvZ). Kal, eh, not so much.
Shinhan Bear Plain is not an individual league map. There have been complaints about maps in the Golden Age of Protoss and Swarm season, but Terran has had far better success in the individual league than the other two races, having almost as many titles as the other two races combined. Most complaints with Flash fans actually is about KT not pulling their weights and Flash tiring out in the individual leagues rather than the maps themselves, since Flash is known to destroy protoss on heavy protoss favored maps anyway. For example, the infamous incident where Luxury lost his proleague game, went back home to sleep, and won his individual league game later that day while Flash carried the team and lost his individual league game.
Fantasy is just Fantasy, he lost so many times to 9 pools because of his bad walls that maps would be rather irrelevant =P. I kid. I don't think Fantasy's deep runs involved unfavorable Terran maps.
Flash isn't fallible yet- wait till he loses on an equal map. I remember thinking Stork and Flash were close when Stork lost 3-2 in GSI finals... but one of those maps was Baekmagoji, probably the most lol map ever (two gasses in the main? how prophetic of SC2! - Was there ever a worse map for Zerg?).
On December 09 2010 14:38 infinitestory wrote: Flash does what's worked in the past, only to near perfection.
Players like Fantasy try new things which may or may not work well. (e.g. early +1 bio push vZ)
Did you just come back from having stopped watching SC:BW in early 2009 or are you just rehashing the opinions of other people who did? Flash has redefined the way all terran matchups are played, and has used more unorthodox strategies than anyone else in the last 1+ year.
And +1 bio push "new", rofl.
At least some people have the honesty to admit that the reason they don't like Flash is that he "wins too much".
Ya. It's so annoying when people spurt out that type of nonsense. -__-
Most of these high lights were just a big bunch of tanks. I don't find that very inspiering. But Flash is ofc a very smart player, and he is the opposite of a macrobot.
Amount of Flash hate really starting to be anoying. Looks like ever new "terran scum" is showing up on the spot, it dethrones all other evil terrans from the positon of major hate object.
On December 09 2010 17:24 okum wrote: Flash has redefined the way all terran matchups are played, and has used more unorthodox strategies than anyone else in the last 1+ year.
Bullshit detected, sorry. Fantasy-Ovv-Boxer hybrid still winning with amount of "unortodox strats", even if this +1 rush was not that new. Scede your bias at once!
On December 10 2010 02:55 hitthat wrote: Amount of Flash hate really starting to be anoying. Looks like ever new "terran scum" is showing up on the spot, it dethrones all other evil terrans from the positon of major hate object.
On December 09 2010 17:24 okum wrote: Flash has redefined the way all terran matchups are played, and has used more unorthodox strategies than anyone else in the last 1+ year.
Bullshit detected, sorry. Fantasy-Ovv-Boxer hybrid still winning with amount of "unortodox strats", even if this +1 rush was not that new. Scede your bias at once!
Flash has done more weird things in every matchup for the past year that have WORKED than Fantasy. There you go.
On December 10 2010 02:55 hitthat wrote: Amount of Flash hate really starting to be anoying. Looks like ever new "terran scum" is showing up on the spot, it dethrones all other evil terrans from the positon of major hate object.
On December 09 2010 17:24 okum wrote: Flash has redefined the way all terran matchups are played, and has used more unorthodox strategies than anyone else in the last 1+ year.
Bullshit detected, sorry. Fantasy-Ovv-Boxer hybrid still winning with amount of "unortodox strats", even if this +1 rush was not that new. Scede your bias at once!
Flash has done more weird things in every matchup for the past year that have WORKED than Fantasy. There you go.
Ok, that's much more fitting. Or maybe rather- he done more things that was used for longer period of time, since many of strange Fantasy's strats were just used once and than forago.
On December 10 2010 02:55 hitthat wrote: Amount of Flash hate really starting to be anoying. Looks like ever new "terran scum" is showing up on the spot, it dethrones all other evil terrans from the positon of major hate object.
On December 09 2010 17:24 okum wrote: Flash has redefined the way all terran matchups are played, and has used more unorthodox strategies than anyone else in the last 1+ year.
Bullshit detected, sorry. Fantasy-Ovv-Boxer hybrid still winning with amount of "unortodox strats", even if this +1 rush was not that new. Scede your bias at once!
Nope, I stand by what I said. To be fair, though, you can factor in that Flash has played a lot more games than anyone else, so he has had more opportunity to do unusual things.
On December 10 2010 02:55 hitthat wrote: Amount of Flash hate really starting to be anoying. Looks like ever new "terran scum" is showing up on the spot, it dethrones all other evil terrans from the positon of major hate object.
On December 09 2010 17:24 okum wrote: Flash has redefined the way all terran matchups are played, and has used more unorthodox strategies than anyone else in the last 1+ year.
Bullshit detected, sorry. Fantasy-Ovv-Boxer hybrid still winning with amount of "unortodox strats", even if this +1 rush was not that new. Scede your bias at once!
Nope, I stand by what I said. To be fair, though, you can factor in that Flash has played a lot more games than anyone else, so he has had more opportunity to do unusual things.
Than you are clearly wrong or didnt pay attention to fantasy's play.
why didn't he deflect literally this kind of Protoss play yesterday? O.O
Back then, the reaver was not used as a frontal attack unit. It's for harassment and keep terran in his base until carriers has arrived. And also because it's the map "katrina". Before flash, Katrina's "2 base reaver -> carriers" has no known counter and it was a sure win for any good protoss.
By the way... Could anyone finally explain what are the reasons Aztec became so Protoss favored vs Terran? I just don't get it. Too open center + too easily carrier-harassable bases i guess... am I right?
Maybe then T should mass vulture and... omg probably even M&M? And then behave like zerg with hydra... :D
But seriously, this map seems all about mobility. Maybe some day we will see and OMG build which will astonish anyone like TvZ mech did ^_^
On December 10 2010 05:52 _Quasar_ wrote: By the way... Could anyone finally explain what are the reasons Aztec became so Protoss favored vs Terran? I just don't get it. Too open center + too easily carrier-harassable bases i guess... am I right?
Maybe then T should mass vulture and... omg probably even M&M? And then behave like zerg with hydra... :D
But seriously, this map seems all about mobility. Maybe some day we will see and OMG build which will astonish anyone like TvZ mech did ^_^
Oh gawd, Mech isn't astonishing at all, its boring, its not entertaining, its slow, its mech.....
The problem with M&M vs. Protoss is that it is an all-in build by definition. They are relatively cost effective vs. Goons and Zealots, and especially if T catches P offguard it will steal a game. But you can't go late game, not even mid game, with M&Ms because they get destroyed by High Templars or Reavers. And playing vs. Arbiters with M&M is totally unacceptable. That also means that you don't even need to bother getting upgrades for your M&Ms and that you don't have the time, money or armory to get upgrades for your Mech units. And you also have Barracks instead of Factories so you can't transition into something. So M&M is like on every other map an all-in build that will work if everything goes as expected and fails if it gets scouted or if the Protoss chooses a different strategy.
For the map: I don't think that Aztec is as extremely Protoss favored as the recent results suggest. It is no Central Plains. The long PvT victory streak is imo a mix of a good (but not unfairly good) map for Protoss and a normal statistical deviation. I think Flash had the right strategy going into the game and he came close to winning but Kal's early advantage was just too much to overcome. It is not like Kal is a nobody, he was always playing on one level with Flash (despite usually losing) and this time he had the lead and lead it to victory.
On December 10 2010 07:43 Fenrax wrote: The problem with M&M vs. Protoss is that it is an all-in build by definition. They are relatively cost effective vs. Goons and Zealots, and especially if T catches P offguard it will steal a game. But you can't go late game, not even mid game, with M&Ms because they get destroyed by High Templars or Reavers. And playing vs. Arbiters with M&M is totally unacceptable. That also means that you don't even need to bother getting upgrades for your M&Ms and that you don't have the time, money or armory to get upgrades for your Mech units. And you also have Barracks instead of Factories so you can't transition into something. So M&M is like on every other map an all-in build that will work if everything goes as expected and fails if it gets scouted or if the Protoss chooses a different strategy.
For the map: I don't think that Aztec is as extremely Protoss favored as the recent results suggest. It is no Central Plains. The long PvT victory streak is imo a mix of a good (but not unfairly good) map for Protoss and a normal statistical deviation. I think Flash had the right strategy going into the game and he came close to winning but Kal's early advantage was just too much to overcome. It is not like Kal is a nobody, he was always playing on one level with Flash (despite usually losing) and this time he had the lead and lead it to victory.
I wonder if you can go MnMs against Protoss and then switch into 3 Port Wraith build timed right to snipe HTs or kill the shuttle bringing the reavers. That would be the pimpest build ever!
On December 10 2010 11:12 dukethegold wrote: Talk about positional abuse, can even Flash win against that strategy from Modesty?
Please stop discrediting players.
Modesty played excellently. His muta micro was superb (before Valk) while Fantasy carelessly lost all of his medics thus rendering his marines useless.
A much superior player like Fantasy should have overcome map imbalances
On December 10 2010 07:43 Fenrax wrote: The problem with M&M vs. Protoss is that it is an all-in build by definition. They are relatively cost effective vs. Goons and Zealots, and especially if T catches P offguard it will steal a game. But you can't go late game, not even mid game, with M&Ms because they get destroyed by High Templars or Reavers. And playing vs. Arbiters with M&M is totally unacceptable. That also means that you don't even need to bother getting upgrades for your M&Ms and that you don't have the time, money or armory to get upgrades for your Mech units. And you also have Barracks instead of Factories so you can't transition into something. So M&M is like on every other map an all-in build that will work if everything goes as expected and fails if it gets scouted or if the Protoss chooses a different strategy.
For the map: I don't think that Aztec is as extremely Protoss favored as the recent results suggest. It is no Central Plains. The long PvT victory streak is imo a mix of a good (but not unfairly good) map for Protoss and a normal statistical deviation. I think Flash had the right strategy going into the game and he came close to winning but Kal's early advantage was just too much to overcome. It is not like Kal is a nobody, he was always playing on one level with Flash (despite usually losing) and this time he had the lead and lead it to victory.
I wonder if you can go MnMs against Protoss and then switch into 3 Port Wraith build timed right to snipe HTs or kill the shuttle bringing the reavers. That would be the pimpest build ever!
I don't think that you could possibly have enough money to pull that off.
On December 10 2010 07:43 Fenrax wrote: The problem with M&M vs. Protoss is that it is an all-in build by definition. They are relatively cost effective vs. Goons and Zealots, and especially if T catches P offguard it will steal a game. But you can't go late game, not even mid game, with M&Ms because they get destroyed by High Templars or Reavers. And playing vs. Arbiters with M&M is totally unacceptable. That also means that you don't even need to bother getting upgrades for your M&Ms and that you don't have the time, money or armory to get upgrades for your Mech units. And you also have Barracks instead of Factories so you can't transition into something. So M&M is like on every other map an all-in build that will work if everything goes as expected and fails if it gets scouted or if the Protoss chooses a different strategy.
For the map: I don't think that Aztec is as extremely Protoss favored as the recent results suggest. It is no Central Plains. The long PvT victory streak is imo a mix of a good (but not unfairly good) map for Protoss and a normal statistical deviation. I think Flash had the right strategy going into the game and he came close to winning but Kal's early advantage was just too much to overcome. It is not like Kal is a nobody, he was always playing on one level with Flash (despite usually losing) and this time he had the lead and lead it to victory.
I wonder if you can go MnMs against Protoss and then switch into 3 Port Wraith build timed right to snipe HTs or kill the shuttle bringing the reavers. That would be the pimpest build ever!
I don't think that you could possibly have enough money to pull that off.
lol he might be onto something (not really ). I think hes suggesting instead of tanks you make wraiths. Since they're the same cost, your econ isnt the problem. a control group of wraiths and pure MM forces hmm. I would think the MM army would be overrun by pure ground forces without tanks. Whatever happened to "i'll try your ideas on iccup thread'?
On December 10 2010 07:43 Fenrax wrote: The problem with M&M vs. Protoss is that it is an all-in build by definition. They are relatively cost effective vs. Goons and Zealots, and especially if T catches P offguard it will steal a game. But you can't go late game, not even mid game, with M&Ms because they get destroyed by High Templars or Reavers. And playing vs. Arbiters with M&M is totally unacceptable. That also means that you don't even need to bother getting upgrades for your M&Ms and that you don't have the time, money or armory to get upgrades for your Mech units. And you also have Barracks instead of Factories so you can't transition into something. So M&M is like on every other map an all-in build that will work if everything goes as expected and fails if it gets scouted or if the Protoss chooses a different strategy.
For the map: I don't think that Aztec is as extremely Protoss favored as the recent results suggest. It is no Central Plains. The long PvT victory streak is imo a mix of a good (but not unfairly good) map for Protoss and a normal statistical deviation. I think Flash had the right strategy going into the game and he came close to winning but Kal's early advantage was just too much to overcome. It is not like Kal is a nobody, he was always playing on one level with Flash (despite usually losing) and this time he had the lead and lead it to victory.
I wonder if you can go MnMs against Protoss and then switch into 3 Port Wraith build timed right to snipe HTs or kill the shuttle bringing the reavers. That would be the pimpest build ever!
I don't think that you could possibly have enough money to pull that off.
lol he might be onto something (not really ). I think hes suggesting instead of tanks you make wraiths. Since they're the same cost, your econ isnt the problem. a control group of wraiths and pure MM forces hmm. I would think the MM army would be overrun by pure ground forces without tanks. Whatever happened to "i'll try your ideas on iccup thread'?
The dude hasn't been around for a while. But to get enough wraiths to actually do anything you'd delay the attack long enough for the opponent to get the means to combat it.
On December 10 2010 02:55 hitthat wrote: Amount of Flash hate really starting to be anoying. Looks like ever new "terran scum" is showing up on the spot, it dethrones all other evil terrans from the positon of major hate object.
On December 09 2010 17:24 okum wrote: Flash has redefined the way all terran matchups are played, and has used more unorthodox strategies than anyone else in the last 1+ year.
Bullshit detected, sorry. Fantasy-Ovv-Boxer hybrid still winning with amount of "unortodox strats", even if this +1 rush was not that new. Scede your bias at once!
Nope, I stand by what I said. To be fair, though, you can factor in that Flash has played a lot more games than anyone else, so he has had more opportunity to do unusual things.
Than you are clearly wrong or didnt pay attention to fantasy's play.
Oh, sure, Fantasy has done plenty of unusual things. I always look forward to his games.
But if you disagree, just look at all the things Flash has had to do to defeat Jaedong (ranging from the overlord snipe "cheese" on HBR to to 5 raxing on Dreamliner, and a fruit salad of hyper-aggressive and hyper-defensive strategies in between).
The primary difference is that Flash's "unorthodox strategies" to a greater extent involve pushing with unusual timings (and/or unit combinations). Somehow people don't recognize creativity if it doesn't involve dropships or vulture harassment. Fantasy is clearly better in that department (although Flash has done a fair bit of it as well -- see the games against Snow and arguably against Turn for the most recent examples).
On December 10 2010 07:43 Fenrax wrote: The problem with M&M vs. Protoss is that it is an all-in build by definition. They are relatively cost effective vs. Goons and Zealots, and especially if T catches P offguard it will steal a game. But you can't go late game, not even mid game, with M&Ms because they get destroyed by High Templars or Reavers. And playing vs. Arbiters with M&M is totally unacceptable. That also means that you don't even need to bother getting upgrades for your M&Ms and that you don't have the time, money or armory to get upgrades for your Mech units. And you also have Barracks instead of Factories so you can't transition into something. So M&M is like on every other map an all-in build that will work if everything goes as expected and fails if it gets scouted or if the Protoss chooses a different strategy.
For the map: I don't think that Aztec is as extremely Protoss favored as the recent results suggest. It is no Central Plains. The long PvT victory streak is imo a mix of a good (but not unfairly good) map for Protoss and a normal statistical deviation. I think Flash had the right strategy going into the game and he came close to winning but Kal's early advantage was just too much to overcome. It is not like Kal is a nobody, he was always playing on one level with Flash (despite usually losing) and this time he had the lead and lead it to victory.
Could you hook us up with a few M&M vods vs protoss out of interest?
On December 10 2010 07:43 Fenrax wrote: The problem with M&M vs. Protoss is that it is an all-in build by definition. They are relatively cost effective vs. Goons and Zealots, and especially if T catches P offguard it will steal a game. But you can't go late game, not even mid game, with M&Ms because they get destroyed by High Templars or Reavers. And playing vs. Arbiters with M&M is totally unacceptable. That also means that you don't even need to bother getting upgrades for your M&Ms and that you don't have the time, money or armory to get upgrades for your Mech units. And you also have Barracks instead of Factories so you can't transition into something. So M&M is like on every other map an all-in build that will work if everything goes as expected and fails if it gets scouted or if the Protoss chooses a different strategy.
For the map: I don't think that Aztec is as extremely Protoss favored as the recent results suggest. It is no Central Plains. The long PvT victory streak is imo a mix of a good (but not unfairly good) map for Protoss and a normal statistical deviation. I think Flash had the right strategy going into the game and he came close to winning but Kal's early advantage was just too much to overcome. It is not like Kal is a nobody, he was always playing on one level with Flash (despite usually losing) and this time he had the lead and lead it to victory.
Could you hook us up with a few M&M vods vs protoss out of interest?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeHKUynz-qI&feature=player_embedded Oddly enough, Best's next terran opponent used the exact same build, and it failed again.
On December 10 2010 14:07 aimaimaim wrote: problem with flash is that he has no showmanship .. and spectator sports, showmanship is a real plus for fans = love/like
thats why T1 pros are loved .. because they are entertainers/players ..
along with other people like stork, sea, leta, and the rare times JD+Lomo combo ..
To be honest, the biggest thing I noticed about all my favorite players is that when they win, they inspire me to want to play their race. Flash never did this, neither did players like free or many of the mid-level zergs. Baby and Fantasy are my favorites as far as terran goes. T1 is pretty good about that, although they sure do get quite a bit of hate.
On December 10 2010 07:43 Fenrax wrote: The problem with M&M vs. Protoss is that it is an all-in build by definition. They are relatively cost effective vs. Goons and Zealots, and especially if T catches P offguard it will steal a game. But you can't go late game, not even mid game, with M&Ms because they get destroyed by High Templars or Reavers. And playing vs. Arbiters with M&M is totally unacceptable. That also means that you don't even need to bother getting upgrades for your M&Ms and that you don't have the time, money or armory to get upgrades for your Mech units. And you also have Barracks instead of Factories so you can't transition into something. So M&M is like on every other map an all-in build that will work if everything goes as expected and fails if it gets scouted or if the Protoss chooses a different strategy.
For the map: I don't think that Aztec is as extremely Protoss favored as the recent results suggest. It is no Central Plains. The long PvT victory streak is imo a mix of a good (but not unfairly good) map for Protoss and a normal statistical deviation. I think Flash had the right strategy going into the game and he came close to winning but Kal's early advantage was just too much to overcome. It is not like Kal is a nobody, he was always playing on one level with Flash (despite usually losing) and this time he had the lead and lead it to victory.
Could you hook us up with a few M&M vods vs protoss out of interest?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeHKUynz-qI&feature=player_embedded Oddly enough, Best's next terran opponent used the exact same build, and it failed again.
On December 10 2010 14:07 aimaimaim wrote: problem with flash is that he has no showmanship .. and spectator sports, showmanship is a real plus for fans = love/like
thats why T1 pros are loved .. because they are entertainers/players ..
along with other people like stork, sea, leta, and the rare times JD+Lomo combo ..
To be honest, the biggest thing I noticed about all my favorite players is that when they win, they inspire me to want to play their race. Flash never did this, neither did players like free or many of the mid-level zergs. Baby and Fantasy are my favorites as far as terran goes. T1 is pretty good about that, although they sure do get quite a bit of hate.
On December 10 2010 07:43 Fenrax wrote: The problem with M&M vs. Protoss is that it is an all-in build by definition. They are relatively cost effective vs. Goons and Zealots, and especially if T catches P offguard it will steal a game. But you can't go late game, not even mid game, with M&Ms because they get destroyed by High Templars or Reavers. And playing vs. Arbiters with M&M is totally unacceptable. That also means that you don't even need to bother getting upgrades for your M&Ms and that you don't have the time, money or armory to get upgrades for your Mech units. And you also have Barracks instead of Factories so you can't transition into something. So M&M is like on every other map an all-in build that will work if everything goes as expected and fails if it gets scouted or if the Protoss chooses a different strategy.
For the map: I don't think that Aztec is as extremely Protoss favored as the recent results suggest. It is no Central Plains. The long PvT victory streak is imo a mix of a good (but not unfairly good) map for Protoss and a normal statistical deviation. I think Flash had the right strategy going into the game and he came close to winning but Kal's early advantage was just too much to overcome. It is not like Kal is a nobody, he was always playing on one level with Flash (despite usually losing) and this time he had the lead and lead it to victory.
I wonder if you can go MnMs against Protoss and then switch into 3 Port Wraith build timed right to snipe HTs or kill the shuttle bringing the reavers. That would be the pimpest build ever!
Yeah! Act like Zerg, i said i said :D
m&m -> vulture -> wraith+optic flare -> vessel EMP... LOL that would be really TOO entertaining. :D And mobility would really win it. ^_^ But you have really to be a micro maniac to do it. But theoretically this strat has no holes - it can deal with really any protoss play including carriers and arbiters (i mean, wraith > carrier).)))
It's only been 2 losses and Flash starts getting discredited. It's no use comparing Flash's style of play with JD or any other S-class player of a different race. Given the demands on current Terran players, you can't afford to be too showy if you want to win multiple gold. Flash doesn't have the personality of Leta/Sea or the looks of Bisu/Jaedong but he's inspiring because when he owns, he does so in such comprehensive fashion. One thing I've always admired about Flash is that he's constantly seeking new ways to perfect his game. I'm not even a Flash fan but I can say that he's definitely inspired me.
It's really basically that if someone suddenly loses, all the people that don't like him become more vocal. I don't think that people change their minds too often. Yes, I can admire Flash's success through continued innovation. But 'inspiring' is the last word that comes to mind when describing Flash games.
On December 10 2010 19:16 Lightwip wrote: It's really basically that if someone suddenly loses, all the people that don't like him become more vocal. I don't think that people change their minds too often. Yes, I can admire Flash's success through continued innovation. But 'inspiring' is the last word that comes to mind when describing Flash games.
and so you reveal your lack of personality and taste.
Flash I can't be him But i hope to at least reach 10% of his level he's my role model of a fantastic terran player should all want to be . Even iloveoov was not as celebrated as BOxEr but he's still brings the game home . Macrobot they call him and i believe flash is just the same with oov he takes whatever it needs to get the game in the bag and who gives a damn about people's thought about how he plays . He after all plays the game for himself and not for the spectator and I don't mind that he doesn't need to be Flashy in term of going cheeses or superb micro as long he wins that's already enough. .
On December 10 2010 21:37 Sawamura wrote: Flash I can't be him But i hope to at least reach 10% of his level he's my role model of a fantastic terran player should all want to be . Even iloveoov was not as celebrated as BOxEr but he's still brings the game home . Macrobot they call him and i believe flash is just the same with oov he takes whatever it needs to get the game in the bag and who gives a damn about people's thought about how he plays . He after all plays the game for himself and not for the spectator and I don't mind that he doesn't need to be Flashy in term of going cheeses or superb micro as long he wins that's already enough. .
His micro IS superb and even when he loses the games are usually entertaining. The Kal game was a fine one.
On December 10 2010 19:16 Lightwip wrote: It's really basically that if someone suddenly loses, all the people that don't like him become more vocal. I don't think that people change their minds too often. Yes, I can admire Flash's success through continued innovation. But 'inspiring' is the last word that comes to mind when describing Flash games.
If you don't find Flahs play in his serie against Fantasy inspiring, nobody can help you. And it's not as if he has revolutioned the 3 match up he plays.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0N2Dv.png)
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Flash < Aztec > 
Kal
Calm < Gladiator > ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/ewUD6.jpg)
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