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On September 03 2010 02:38 1a2a3aPro wrote:
Is it just me or is Jaedong not really in form anymore? He seems to be winning games, but instead of being "aggressive" and winning with great management when it looks like the other player can hold (like he used to), he seems to be Kwanrolling it up and winning with the element of surprise, WHILE losing macro/management related games more and more often. I don't like this. I feel like he's slowly losing it and is only holding on because of management, surprise and the fact that a slumping Jaedong is still a bitch to beat.
If you ask me that is exactly why he made the final decision to bust Stork's wall with early pressure due to the fact he got rolled via zealot timing then macro. Stork messed up and i'm very disappointed with his lackluster defense. I thought he had read that Jaedong would continue to pressure but he decided instead to leave the window open.. ?  Oh well possibly another FvJ finals boring imo. I wanted a flash vs stork rematch and now I can't have it.
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On September 03 2010 03:51 MangoTango wrote:
Wow, the series, while going to the maximum number of games, felt one sided.
Odd thing is.. it felt one sided in favor of Stork LOL. At least it was to me. =P
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I'd have wanted Stork to win if it wasn't for the fact that I don't think he has a good chance of beating Flash.
Stop skimping cannons. It doesn't fucking work.
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On September 03 2010 13:37 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 03:51 MangoTango wrote:
Wow, the series, while going to the maximum number of games, felt one sided. Odd thing is.. it felt one sided in favor of Stork LOL. At least it was to me. =P
Agreed. I thought JD was out for sure going into the 5th set. He needs less practice and more sleep.
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this series totally could have gone either way... so sad stork lost! he needs to reclaim his former glory
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On September 03 2010 03:04 Harem wrote:Q: You managed to take full advantage of the hole in free's defenses. A: I actually didn't have any plans to attack, but when I scouted with my overlord his defenses at his natural seemed a bit shoddy. That's why I produced extra lings and attacked. The attack went well so I could win easily. From his game here: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/35247_free_vs_Jaedong
There is no way that that was the case in game 5. Because otherwise making 4 lings off a 9 pool puts you behind for no reason at all. He also got ling speed before the lair.
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On September 03 2010 17:46 Wonders wrote:
There is no way that that was the case in game 5. Because otherwise making 4 lings off a 9 pool puts you behind for no reason at all. He also got ling speed before the lair.
So why going 9 pool at all?
In real, after stork scouted jd first, jd had no real choice but make those 4 lings and kill the scouting probe asap, while trying to mass drones and macro up.
BUT, and that's the problem, after the second probe failed to scout anything but ling speed, you're right expecting stork to make the second cannon asap... it's there that he failed :|
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Poor stork
He's so cute :3 but he there was no way he was going to get past the death stare.
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Man that series was damn good i want to have something like that every day
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United States10774 Posts
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Dammit Jaedong denied Stork his chance at silver.
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Man I'm still pissed Stork lost
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Jaedong needs to approach these finals the same way he approached the Bacchus semis against Fantasy last year. He needs to start embracing early aggression not just to steal wins, but to put the fear back in his opponent and take control of the game.
I honestly think his fans are fucking him up right now, making him think that he has to defeat all his opponents in the late game where Zerg is inherently weaker, as if punishing greedy builds is something to be ashamed of. I'm sure that's the same criticism that went Effort's way after he "stole" the last OSL. If the Dong can get over that and simply get back to wanting to crush his opponents, he will be the victor in China.
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On September 05 2010 04:48 j2choe wrote:
Jaedong needs to approach these finals the same way he approached the Bacchus semis against Fantasy last year. He needs to start embracing early aggression not just to steal wins, but to put the fear back in his opponent and take control of the game.
I honestly think his fans are fucking him up right now, making him think that he has to defeat all his opponents in the late game where Zerg is inherently weaker, as if punishing greedy builds is something to be ashamed of. I'm sure that's the same criticism that went Effort's way after he "stole" the last OSL. If the Dong can get over that and simply get back to wanting to crush his opponents, he will be the victor in China.
Really? I think Jaedong just wants to win, I don't think he cares how he wins... But hey, I don't know him.
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On September 05 2010 04:48 j2choe wrote:
Jaedong needs to approach these finals the same way he approached the Bacchus semis against Fantasy last year. He needs to start embracing early aggression not just to steal wins, but to put the fear back in his opponent and take control of the game.
I honestly think his fans are fucking him up right now, making him think that he has to defeat all his opponents in the late game where Zerg is inherently weaker, as if punishing greedy builds is something to be ashamed of. I'm sure that's the same criticism that went Effort's way after he "stole" the last OSL. If the Dong can get over that and simply get back to wanting to crush his opponents, he will be the victor in China.
This is a really interesting point. I don't know how much the fans' hatred of "cheese" really affects the players, but maybe this also explains why Kwanro is so hated: he got really good at punishing the greedy eco builds that are all en vogue, and since 1 rax cc is our idea of standard play you think that anything that ends the game early must be "cheese!" Just like forge nexus cannon gateway, or similar builds for Protoss.
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Sad Stork lost. But nice micro @ lings!
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On September 06 2010 01:46 malathion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 04:48 j2choe wrote:
Jaedong needs to approach these finals the same way he approached the Bacchus semis against Fantasy last year. He needs to start embracing early aggression not just to steal wins, but to put the fear back in his opponent and take control of the game.
I honestly think his fans are fucking him up right now, making him think that he has to defeat all his opponents in the late game where Zerg is inherently weaker, as if punishing greedy builds is something to be ashamed of. I'm sure that's the same criticism that went Effort's way after he "stole" the last OSL. If the Dong can get over that and simply get back to wanting to crush his opponents, he will be the victor in China. This is a really interesting point. I don't know how much the fans' hatred of "cheese" really affects the players, but maybe this also explains why Kwanro is so hated: he got really good at punishing the greedy eco builds that are all en vogue, and since 1 rax cc is our idea of standard play you think that anything that ends the game early must be "cheese!" Just like forge nexus cannon gateway, or similar builds for Protoss.
I'm afraid it's similar case with Flash. Remember how he kicked JD out of the OSL (the one that Flash eventualy won against Movie)? He used quite clever early game agression, sniping the first overlord and than bunker rush JD 12 hatch. And the shitstorm followed. Many idiots were banned that day on TL and in Korea it was even worse.
I don't remember any significant cheese from him since that day (maybe once against Calm in PL, but I'm not sure), at least against JD...or in finals generaly. Which is a shame, because Flash can come with very interesting cheeses.
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What are u talking about, koreans love cheese. Jaedong vs fantasy semi finals? 9 pool ling rush (although impromptu i believe) 4 pool? the crowd was wild. Another example is storks first game in the finals against fantasy. And flash did in fact bunker rush kwanroll two times ( anyone see the irony ?) after bunkering jaedong. But I do admit that particular game the reaction was bad afterward but more so because its a cheese against jaedong when flash was already a game up. Very dirty, but that's what was so good about it. The expectations weren't met so the fans reacted negatively, which is understandable.
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For me, 'cheesy' play is a risk concept of cost/potential benefit, where the potential benefit is weighed against the detriment of failure. If the detriment is significant to impose a significant disadvantage, then I consider it all-in, and cheesy.
In the case of mass-lings, there is a significant economical disadvantage, and delayed tech. With proxy gates, the risk includes significant damage to a counterattack, and loss of early-mid game control. The degree to which an approach becomes cheese, lies on a continuum, and is subjectively assessed rather than arbitrarily set. In my opinion Jaedong would've been at a significant disadvantage had he failed to break the natural, and by my assessment, is an all-in cheese. If he stopped ling production earlier, I would've considered it more of a calculated risk, but this was not the case.
Also, cheese to me implies an active approach. I consider fast expansions to be passive and not all-in or cheesy.
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EPT
