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On September 06 2010 04:49 FirstProbe wrote:
For me, 'cheesy' play is a risk concept of cost/potential benefit, where the potential benefit is weighed against the detriment of failure. If the detriment is significant to impose a significant disadvantage, then I consider it all-in, and cheesy.
In the case of mass-lings, there is a significant economical disadvantage, and delayed tech. With proxy gates, the risk includes significant damage to a counterattack, and loss of early-mid game control. The degree to which an approach becomes cheese, lies on a continuum, and is subjectively assessed rather than arbitrarily set. In my opinion Jaedong would've been at a significant disadvantage had he failed to break the natural, and by my assessment, is an all-in cheese. If he stopped ling production earlier, I would've considered it more of a calculated risk, but this was not the case.
Also, cheese to me implies an active approach. I consider fast expansions to be passive and not all-in or cheesy.
All-in lings when you can pretty much tell that they won't be able to defend it isn't exactly cheesy, it's just the right response.
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On September 06 2010 05:47 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 04:49 FirstProbe wrote:
For me, 'cheesy' play is a risk concept of cost/potential benefit, where the potential benefit is weighed against the detriment of failure. If the detriment is significant to impose a significant disadvantage, then I consider it all-in, and cheesy.
In the case of mass-lings, there is a significant economical disadvantage, and delayed tech. With proxy gates, the risk includes significant damage to a counterattack, and loss of early-mid game control. The degree to which an approach becomes cheese, lies on a continuum, and is subjectively assessed rather than arbitrarily set. In my opinion Jaedong would've been at a significant disadvantage had he failed to break the natural, and by my assessment, is an all-in cheese. If he stopped ling production earlier, I would've considered it more of a calculated risk, but this was not the case.
Also, cheese to me implies an active approach. I consider fast expansions to be passive and not all-in or cheesy. All-in lings when you can pretty much tell that they won't be able to defend it isn't exactly cheesy, it's just the right response.
Yeah, seriously. If you can do an all-in "ling spam" attack like Jaedong did in that game, but through your 'star sense' or intuition you know it has a 70% chance of winning you the game, why on earth wouldn't you do it? Is it 'dishonorable' to ling spam when your opponent gives you an opening, even though it's an effective strategy? Really, I don't know why we talk about this anymore. It has to be fanboyism. I love Stork and I would have loved to see him in the finals, but he left an opening and Jaedong pounced on it. That's all there is to this.
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On September 06 2010 04:49 FirstProbe wrote:
For me, 'cheesy' play is a risk concept of cost/potential benefit, where the potential benefit is weighed against the detriment of failure. If the detriment is significant to impose a significant disadvantage, then I consider it all-in, and cheesy.
In the case of mass-lings, there is a significant economical disadvantage, and delayed tech. With proxy gates, the risk includes significant damage to a counterattack, and loss of early-mid game control. The degree to which an approach becomes cheese, lies on a continuum, and is subjectively assessed rather than arbitrarily set. In my opinion Jaedong would've been at a significant disadvantage had he failed to break the natural, and by my assessment, is an all-in cheese. If he stopped ling production earlier, I would've considered it more of a calculated risk, but this was not the case.
Also, cheese to me implies an active approach. I consider fast expansions to be passive and not all-in or cheesy.
What if the attack was initially not intended to be all-in, rather a calculated risk (seeing as how his Lair had started) and opportunity to test Stork's wall? However when Jaedong figured he would be able to easily break it, he committed to more lings.
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Yeah, stork was trying to cut corners, jaedong didn't let him and he won. As simple as that...
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
Cheese is for the rats and cockroaches.
Real men don't acknowledge cheese, they consider being able to rush early and punish greedy builds a critical and important part of the game.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
Example: Boxer triple bunker + allin scv rushing Yellow 3 times in a row.
That wasn't cheese, that was just Boxer genius.
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On September 06 2010 06:56 LucasWoJ wrote:
Yeah, stork was trying to cut corners, jaedong didn't let him and he won. As simple as that...
Now if only he started doing the same thing against Flash's 14CC gayness.
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On September 06 2010 08:20 dras wrote:
are there vods of this?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=50875¤tpage=349
Scroll down a bit to find vods for both semis.
I see you are new to the site so will give you some hints on "finding" vods.
1. Check youtube accounts of nevake and jon747.
2. If they are not there yet check www.wfbrood.com
It is in chinese but usually you can find the vods. They are uploaded within hours of the games (faster than on youtube but are slow to buffer).
3. Checl small vods thread at TL.
If all fail then you have to be patient. They will be uploaded sooner or later.
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On September 06 2010 09:53 DarkMatter_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 06:56 LucasWoJ wrote:
Yeah, stork was trying to cut corners, jaedong didn't let him and he won. As simple as that... Now if only he started doing the same thing against Flash's 14CC gayness.
Hold on. If early all-in attacks aren't "cheese", then 14cc isn't "gay".
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I dislike Stork. and am not a fanboy. Some of his previous comments really annoyed me.
Regardless; yes, of course it was a calculated risk, and I don't have any issue with Jaedong doing so. The fact that he committed the outcome of the game to this attack is what I consider to be cheesy. Had Stork placed another cannon, this would've been an entirely different discussion, and many people would be asking why Jaedong resorted to 'cheese'.
Darkmetal, you are right. Perhaps he thought he could break Stork after testing the wall. To be honest, I don't think this was the case. The losses were excessively heavy to begin with. It is possible to be aggressive without being cheesy - the difference being that you don't overly commit and risk the outcome of the game. 8rax itself is not particularly risky because you can still adapt and change your approach. If you 8rax and then send all your scvs - then that is a entirely different matter, calculated or not.
Say you randomed PvT and scouted a 14cc, had produced two gateways and decided to zealot rush. That in itself is a calculated risk and not particularly cheesy, even if a little unorthodox. If you decided to send all your probes with the attack then that is a different matter.
Tien is the master BGH PvT cannon rusher and is not a stranger to cheese.  His comments should be considered null!
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On September 06 2010 11:06 FirstProbe wrote:Regardless; yes, of course it was a calculated risk, and I don't have any issue with Jaedong doing so. The fact that he committed the outcome of the game to this attack is what I consider to be cheesy.
I really don't understand this objection. See my above comment: if you have the option to all-in on something like zergling spam, but you know it has a 70% chance of winning the game, why on earth should you not do it? Is it somehow "dishonorable" to commit to an attack you know has a high chance of winning the game?
Had Stork placed another cannon, this would've been an entirely different discussion, and many people would be asking why Jaedong resorted to 'cheese'.
I don't see the value of this counter factual either. Had Stork placed another cannon, Jaedong likely would not have gone all-in on zerglings.
Edit: Spelling
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I said I didn't have any objection with Jaedong doing so. I still consider it to be cheesy though, because his plan was win or (if Stork had two cannons) die trying. No problem with him taking that opportunity at all.
Yes I think he would've lost if Stork had two cannons, and he did what he did. Sure he might have opted against the rush if he saw a second cannon.. we will never know. Regardless, if Jaedong had rushed and failed, the last few pages of comments would be on why Jaedong resorted to 'cheese'.
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On September 06 2010 10:35 Lebesgue wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=50875¤tpage=349Scroll down a bit to find vods for both semis. I see you are new to the site so will give you some hints on "finding" vods. 1. Check youtube accounts of nevake and jon747. 2. If they are not there yet check www.wfbrood.comIt is in chinese but usually you can find the vods. They are uploaded within hours of the games (faster than on youtube but are slow to buffer). 3. Checl small vods thread at TL. If all fail then you have to be patient. They will be uploaded sooner or later.
thank you very much sir! I am not worthy.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
FirstProbe
He built that many lings BECAUSE Stork had 1 cannon. When you play ZvP above C level, almost every single zerg worth his salt will not do a ling timing attack if he sees a blocked defense + 2 cannons.
Get that cheese shit out of your vocabulary. It isn't cheese, it is merely a timing attack based on lack of defense on opponent's part.
Jaedong KNOWS with only 2 zealots and 1 cannon, 14-16 lings is GOING to do damage. He also knows with 2 zealots and a probe behind them, Stork 95% of the time doesn't have another zealot coming. Simple math.
Practice ZvP thousands and thousands of time doing that 3 base / lair tech build vs fast expo protoss. Than practice hundreds and hundreds of failed / successful ling busts.
Then you'll know some things progamers do isn't cointossing, but flawless execution.
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On September 06 2010 13:06 Tien wrote:
FirstProbe
He built that many lings BECAUSE Stork had 1 cannon. When you play ZvP above C level, almost every single zerg worth his salt will not do a ling timing attack if he sees a blocked defense + 2 cannons.
Get that cheese shit out of your vocabulary. It isn't cheese, it is merely a timing attack based on lack of defense on opponent's part.
Jaedong KNOWS with only 2 zealots and 1 cannon, 14-16 lings is GOING to do damage. Simple math.
Practice ZvP thousands and thousands of time doing that 3 base / lair tech build vs fast expo protoss. Than practice hundreds and hundreds of failed / successful ling busts.
Then you'll know some things progamers do isn't cointossing, but flawless execution.
B- zerg before I stopped. You? It is possible to not see the second cannon, or to have it placed after the lings are produced. Yes I've done ling rushes before. Yes even if you don't kill the opponent, the delay from mining time and the incidental damage may be sufficient.
You object to the term cheese because you think it has some derogatory connotation. I specifically defined my use of that term, which is far more than you've offered.
Did I say Jaedong was wrong to do it? No, I don't believe I did. So learn to read carefully. He did what he thought would help him win.
Get off your high horse until you have a valid point to express.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
On September 03 2010 02:00 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 01:30 constantine wrote:On September 02 2010 23:50 nurle wrote:
why cant jaedong be this agressive vs flash? he needs that to win i think: p Game 5 he gambled and won. Pretty insane, in the true meaning of the word, that he went for it. I was screaming pls stop pumping those lings the whole time! --- but other than that, I think he was just improvising. ~~ likewise after the semi-finals against Light, where he admitted it. all that aggression doesnt looking like him, and im positive that if Free was to advance to the OSL finals JD would have a lot more problems seeing how he is overtraining his ZvT Chill: "When I played iCCup at B- on my stream sometimes this protoss would FE with 1 cannon and I'd say on the stream "why is this kid only making 1 cannon I'm just going to make a bunch of lings and kill him" and then the toss complains about all in." It's the same thing. Jaedong isn't going to let someone get away with 1 cannon no matter how good he is, especially off a 9 pool. Flash only takes risks like that in the BO with like 14 CC but jaedong beats flash tons with auto win vs 14 CC.
On February 03 2010 03:58 mrmin123 wrote:
Q: You managed to take full advantage of the hole in free's defenses.
A: I actually didn't have any plans to attack, but when I scouted with my overlord his defenses at his natural seemed a bit shoddy. That's why I produced extra lings and attacked. The attack went well so I could win easily.
B level zerg.
Jaedong sees Stork making 1 cannon. Jaedong knows protosses like to cut corners early game in defense to tech faster.
Jaedong upgrades ling speed first and makes a strong timing attack to punish Stork. Jaedong knows by the time Stork knows what's up, building another cannon will be too late. The ling speed timing is too fast for what Stork is normally accustomed to.
Blame it on Stork having shoddy defenses.
This is so abc simple, there's nothing to argue. Cheese even in your definition of the word doesn't apply here.
And I don't come up with definitions for cheese because I don't care. It's a meaningless concept to me.
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What are you trying to prove? That Jaedong knew what he was doing? Of course he did. That Stork made a misjudgment? I agree. I've never said otherwise.
Clearly you don't care. Clearly it's meaningless to you. It's so clear that you went out of your way to make an issue of it.
Restating the same point doesn't make your argument any stronger.
If you're the same Tien I know, ?Tien[GoGo] 179-197 B-, then you're a protoss player. That's not to say you wouldn't understand the intricacies of ZvP, but clearly you place some value on experience.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
My argument is simple.
There is no cheese. And even with your definition of it, there was no cheese.
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If this semi was jaedong vs free and flash vs stork another leessang final wouldn't have been as much of a guarantee. They're practically the best players besides jaedong and flash themselves to take them out, if the matchups are right.
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EPT
