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On August 21 2010 16:22 Brokenlamp wrote:
Game 5 he went all-in after immediately realizing that after his initial aggression had success that if he went all-in he would win. His style is to aggressively poke around waiting to find a weakspot or weak timeframe in your defenses, and then once he spots it he grabs it by the throat without any amatuerish hesitation. Its playing zerg, specifically ZvT, at its highest level ever. Just enjoy it while we can.
2 late games = pretty good light's win
3 early games = felt grumpy cause i couldn't watch till wcg, jd's wins.
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On August 21 2010 16:23 LuigiNMario wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 16:21 revy wrote:On August 21 2010 16:17 LuigiNMario wrote:On August 21 2010 16:16 OpticalShot wrote:
This thread's fanboy/girl arguments are too weak. I'm expecting better after the finals =P Can you really call me a fanboy for hating on cheesy zergling agression? Nothing cheesy about it, ling aggression is always dangerous when you go for these eco oriented builds. There's a reason why Flash is fond of bunkers at the front door, particularly when scouting many lings being made. It's as cheesy as terran mech (i.e. a totally legit strat with pros and cons). Yes, but against mech being greedy is rather good :l
If you see a bunker, slap another hatch down take another expo whatever, this ensures it goes to midgame.
If you don't see a bunker... kwanroll that shit. Light chose to be Kwanrolled.
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On August 21 2010 16:24 Yxes2211 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 16:17 LuigiNMario wrote:On August 21 2010 16:16 OpticalShot wrote:
This thread's fanboy/girl arguments are too weak. I'm expecting better after the finals =P Can you really call me a fanboy for hating on cheesy zergling agression? Nah... Why would anyone be aggressive with the first military unit to come out? I mean, Zergs by their nature are not an aggressive race right? God bro, early aggression is how u punish greed, any competent player would do the same.
I keep telling you 1 cheese win is fine by me, but 2 is too much for me to handle :l and I'll start hating like i did with effort. ;/
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Wow, I cannot believe people are disappointed/angry at Jaedong winning by taking advantage of Light's lack of defense at the expo. Jaedong continuously harassed the entrance to intentionally shift Light's attention to defending the entrance, which made Light spend resources on firebats and also lose resource by being forced to pull scvs away from mining to defend/repair/block entrance. By shifting Light's attention and decreasing his resource mining, Jaedong knows he can delay Light's construction of engineering bay for turrets and hence, he has a higher chance of finishing Light off with mutalisks.
You guys don't think that's strategy? Sure it was all-in but it's not like a 4-pool all-in where its success almost solely depends on the opponents starting build. It was an all-in based on a carefully thought out strategy Jaedong planned out once he saw that Light's lackluster expo defense could be exploited.
You still disappointed and gonna take credit away from Jaedong for "cheesing"?
For crying out loud, starcraft isn't the 18th century european wars where two sides marched towards each other on the field, stopped, lined up in a single file, and just started shooting at equal footing.
Everyone (including commentators btw) knows late-game terran mechanic is the STRONGEST force in sheer power alone in Starcraft. I'm NOT saying terran is imbalanced; all i'm saying is that if you're zerg, you know that a head on fight (yes, including plague, dark swarm, irradiate, drops, etc.; i'm not saying a LITERAL head on fight) against mech terran, esp in this map, is going to be increasingly difficult as time passes. Why would Jaedong just let Light continue mining resources, teching, and building up forces when Jaedong can take advantage of the weak defence Light exposed?
You guys said this wouldn't have worked against flash b/c he would have built a bunker. that's most likely true, but once jaedong saw a bunker already being built, i highly doubt he would have produced and sent all those zerglings for an all-in strategy.
Although I'm a flash fan (yes, i think flash is going to win in the finals), it's kind of disappointing that Jaedong's plays are being understood as some low-skill-required lucky "cheese" play to overseas viewers (first time on tl btw!). As if only 30min+ games require "true skill", w/e that is. Yes, please tell that to someone who has multiple osls, msls, and a wcg.
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On August 21 2010 16:25 LuigiNMario wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 16:24 Yxes2211 wrote:On August 21 2010 16:17 LuigiNMario wrote:On August 21 2010 16:16 OpticalShot wrote:
This thread's fanboy/girl arguments are too weak. I'm expecting better after the finals =P Can you really call me a fanboy for hating on cheesy zergling agression? Nah... Why would anyone be aggressive with the first military unit to come out? I mean, Zergs by their nature are not an aggressive race right? God bro, early aggression is how u punish greed, any competent player would do the same. I keep telling you 1 cheese win is fine by me, but 2 is too much for me to handle :l and I'll start hating like i did with effort. ;/
Yeah Jaedong should have just let Light get an economy and everything. Why jaedong shouldn't have even attacked should have just made drones all game.
Now seriously common when terrans try to be greedy a good zerg should punish them for it or be greedy themselves. Jaedong chose aggressive and in game 5 he went all in because his ling did so much more damage and Light screwed it up by not putting a bunker and chose to be more greedy.
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On August 21 2010 16:25 LuigiNMario wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 16:24 Yxes2211 wrote:On August 21 2010 16:17 LuigiNMario wrote:On August 21 2010 16:16 OpticalShot wrote:
This thread's fanboy/girl arguments are too weak. I'm expecting better after the finals =P Can you really call me a fanboy for hating on cheesy zergling agression? Nah... Why would anyone be aggressive with the first military unit to come out? I mean, Zergs by their nature are not an aggressive race right? God bro, early aggression is how u punish greed, any competent player would do the same. I keep telling you 1 cheese win is fine by me, but 2 is too much for me to handle :l and I'll start hating like i did with effort. ;/
But u make it sound like JD 4 pooled his way to victory. JD could've gone to mid game, but read his opponent, determined he could win with early aggression, and proceeded to do so. It wasn't cheese. The closest thing to cheese was 2 hatch muta, which turned into an all in after JD saw his initial success.
I'd agree if it was cheese, but it wasn't >.<
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On August 21 2010 16:25 LuigiNMario wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 16:24 Yxes2211 wrote:On August 21 2010 16:17 LuigiNMario wrote:On August 21 2010 16:16 OpticalShot wrote:
This thread's fanboy/girl arguments are too weak. I'm expecting better after the finals =P Can you really call me a fanboy for hating on cheesy zergling agression? Nah... Why would anyone be aggressive with the first military unit to come out? I mean, Zergs by their nature are not an aggressive race right? God bro, early aggression is how u punish greed, any competent player would do the same. I keep telling you 1 cheese win is fine by me, but 2 is too much for me to handle :l and I'll start hating like i did with effort. ;/
And we keep telling you that that's the only way to beat Terran mid and late game mech. It's the only viable strategy against your favorite strategy.
You have this favorite strategy that you like and you irrationally hate every player who chooses to use its counter.
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On August 21 2010 16:25 LuigiNMario wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 16:24 Yxes2211 wrote:On August 21 2010 16:17 LuigiNMario wrote:On August 21 2010 16:16 OpticalShot wrote:
This thread's fanboy/girl arguments are too weak. I'm expecting better after the finals =P Can you really call me a fanboy for hating on cheesy zergling agression? Nah... Why would anyone be aggressive with the first military unit to come out? I mean, Zergs by their nature are not an aggressive race right? God bro, early aggression is how u punish greed, any competent player would do the same. I keep telling you 1 cheese win is fine by me, but 2 is too much for me to handle :l and I'll start hating like i did with effort. ;/
but you know, you dont want to be called fanboy, but why you ignore the 2 bunker rush of Light a WCG? why?, why you dont count light being destroyed at late game at 3rd set at wcg? why dont you are mad at terran for not building a bunker? is 100 min, zergs build 2 sunkens, which is 350min, and lose the first ovie half of the time.
im afraid. you are a fanboy.
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On August 21 2010 16:28 Yxes2211 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 16:25 LuigiNMario wrote:On August 21 2010 16:24 Yxes2211 wrote:On August 21 2010 16:17 LuigiNMario wrote:On August 21 2010 16:16 OpticalShot wrote:
This thread's fanboy/girl arguments are too weak. I'm expecting better after the finals =P Can you really call me a fanboy for hating on cheesy zergling agression? Nah... Why would anyone be aggressive with the first military unit to come out? I mean, Zergs by their nature are not an aggressive race right? God bro, early aggression is how u punish greed, any competent player would do the same. I keep telling you 1 cheese win is fine by me, but 2 is too much for me to handle :l and I'll start hating like i did with effort. ;/ But u make it sound like JD 4 pooled his way to victory. JD could've gone to mid game, but read his opponent, determined he could win with early aggression, and proceeded to do so. It wasn't cheese. The closest thing to cheese was 2 hatch muta, which turned into an all in after JD saw his initial success. I'd agree if it was cheese, but it wasn't >.<
I agree, after the inital lings, if he saw the bunker, he coulda droned up and took a third but after realizing there was no bunker and like 20 scvs... Jaedong was like "greedy little boy ur gonna die"
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On August 21 2010 16:27 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 16:25 LuigiNMario wrote:On August 21 2010 16:24 Yxes2211 wrote:On August 21 2010 16:17 LuigiNMario wrote:On August 21 2010 16:16 OpticalShot wrote:
This thread's fanboy/girl arguments are too weak. I'm expecting better after the finals =P Can you really call me a fanboy for hating on cheesy zergling agression? Nah... Why would anyone be aggressive with the first military unit to come out? I mean, Zergs by their nature are not an aggressive race right? God bro, early aggression is how u punish greed, any competent player would do the same. I keep telling you 1 cheese win is fine by me, but 2 is too much for me to handle :l and I'll start hating like i did with effort. ;/ Yeah Jaedong should have just let Light get an economy and everything. Why jaedong shouldn't have even attacked should have just made drones all game. Now seriously common when terrans try to be greedy a good zerg should punish them for it or be greedy themselves. Jaedong chose aggressive and in game 5 he went all in because his ling did so much more damage and Light screwed it up by not putting a bunker and chose to be more greedy.
Terran always bunker rushes when zerg is too greedy right?
oh wait.
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I'm not surprised at all Jaedong went for 2 zergling all-ins on PR. The map is trash. Zerg is only on even footing for the first 5-7 minutes of the game.
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On August 21 2010 16:29 insanet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 16:25 LuigiNMario wrote:On August 21 2010 16:24 Yxes2211 wrote:On August 21 2010 16:17 LuigiNMario wrote:On August 21 2010 16:16 OpticalShot wrote:
This thread's fanboy/girl arguments are too weak. I'm expecting better after the finals =P Can you really call me a fanboy for hating on cheesy zergling agression? Nah... Why would anyone be aggressive with the first military unit to come out? I mean, Zergs by their nature are not an aggressive race right? God bro, early aggression is how u punish greed, any competent player would do the same. I keep telling you 1 cheese win is fine by me, but 2 is too much for me to handle :l and I'll start hating like i did with effort. ;/ but you know, you dont want to be called fanboy, but why you ignore the 2 bunker rush of Light a WCG? why?, why you dont count light being destroyed at late game at 3rd set at wcg? why dont you are mad at terran for not building a bunker? is 100 min, zergs build 2 sunkens, which is 350min, and lose the first ovie half of the time. im afraid. you are a fanboy.
You know why light lost the 3rd set? he stuck with half with his bio and have with mechanic.
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On August 21 2010 16:30 LuigiNMario wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 16:27 blade55555 wrote:On August 21 2010 16:25 LuigiNMario wrote:On August 21 2010 16:24 Yxes2211 wrote:On August 21 2010 16:17 LuigiNMario wrote:On August 21 2010 16:16 OpticalShot wrote:
This thread's fanboy/girl arguments are too weak. I'm expecting better after the finals =P Can you really call me a fanboy for hating on cheesy zergling agression? Nah... Why would anyone be aggressive with the first military unit to come out? I mean, Zergs by their nature are not an aggressive race right? God bro, early aggression is how u punish greed, any competent player would do the same. I keep telling you 1 cheese win is fine by me, but 2 is too much for me to handle :l and I'll start hating like i did with effort. ;/ Yeah Jaedong should have just let Light get an economy and everything. Why jaedong shouldn't have even attacked should have just made drones all game. Now seriously common when terrans try to be greedy a good zerg should punish them for it or be greedy themselves. Jaedong chose aggressive and in game 5 he went all in because his ling did so much more damage and Light screwed it up by not putting a bunker and chose to be more greedy. Terran always bunker rushes when zerg is too greedy right? oh wait.
They can or thy don't have to, just like how zerg doesnt always all in when they see greed, lots of them get a 3rd hatch. When there was no bunker he was INVITING dong to "cheese" if thats what u call it, him
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On August 21 2010 16:30 LuigiNMario wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 16:27 blade55555 wrote:On August 21 2010 16:25 LuigiNMario wrote:On August 21 2010 16:24 Yxes2211 wrote:On August 21 2010 16:17 LuigiNMario wrote:On August 21 2010 16:16 OpticalShot wrote:
This thread's fanboy/girl arguments are too weak. I'm expecting better after the finals =P Can you really call me a fanboy for hating on cheesy zergling agression? Nah... Why would anyone be aggressive with the first military unit to come out? I mean, Zergs by their nature are not an aggressive race right? God bro, early aggression is how u punish greed, any competent player would do the same. I keep telling you 1 cheese win is fine by me, but 2 is too much for me to handle :l and I'll start hating like i did with effort. ;/ Yeah Jaedong should have just let Light get an economy and everything. Why jaedong shouldn't have even attacked should have just made drones all game. Now seriously common when terrans try to be greedy a good zerg should punish them for it or be greedy themselves. Jaedong chose aggressive and in game 5 he went all in because his ling did so much more damage and Light screwed it up by not putting a bunker and chose to be more greedy. Terran always bunker rushes when zerg is too greedy right? oh wait.
Um how about if zergs are droning the usual but doesn't make any sunkens. A terran with the usual timing attack would attack to punish him yes? Or would that be considered "cheesy and all in"?
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On August 21 2010 16:25 LuigiNMario wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 16:24 Yxes2211 wrote:On August 21 2010 16:17 LuigiNMario wrote:On August 21 2010 16:16 OpticalShot wrote:
This thread's fanboy/girl arguments are too weak. I'm expecting better after the finals =P Can you really call me a fanboy for hating on cheesy zergling agression? Nah... Why would anyone be aggressive with the first military unit to come out? I mean, Zergs by their nature are not an aggressive race right? God bro, early aggression is how u punish greed, any competent player would do the same. I keep telling you 1 cheese win is fine by me, but 2 is too much for me to handle :l and I'll start hating like i did with effort. ;/
Again, nothing cheesy about it, this isn't a NR20 game. Probably my favorite BO5 ever played was July's dismantling of Best, how'd he do it? 4 Pool, 12 hatch -> ling all in/drone drill, Macro game. If you call early z aggression cheese wtf do you call late game t passivity?
As much as I'm upset that Flash lost the last OSL finals, 2 macroish games won, 3 early games lost, there's nothing wrong with how Effort played.
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On August 21 2010 16:31 NovaTheFeared wrote:
I'm not surprised at all Jaedong went for 2 zergling all-ins on PR. The map is trash. Zerg is only on even footing for the first 5-7 minutes of the game.
Odd-eye3 has more biasness towards terran tho.
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This for me is just like a replay of flash vs effort last 2 games :/
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On August 21 2010 16:25 LuigiNMario wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 16:24 Yxes2211 wrote:On August 21 2010 16:17 LuigiNMario wrote:On August 21 2010 16:16 OpticalShot wrote:
This thread's fanboy/girl arguments are too weak. I'm expecting better after the finals =P Can you really call me a fanboy for hating on cheesy zergling agression? Nah... Why would anyone be aggressive with the first military unit to come out? I mean, Zergs by their nature are not an aggressive race right? God bro, early aggression is how u punish greed, any competent player would do the same. I keep telling you 1 cheese win is fine by me, but 2 is too much for me to handle :l and I'll start hating like i did with effort. ;/
Why don't you go hate on Flash for 14 CCing his way to 3-0.
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
On August 21 2010 16:26 kwkwookw wrote:
Wow, I cannot believe people are disappointed/angry at Jaedong winning by taking advantage of Light's lack of defense at the expo. Jaedong continuously harassed the entrance to intentionally shift Light's attention to defending the entrance, which made Light spend resources on firebats and also lose resource by being forced to pull scvs away from mining to defend/repair/block entrance. By shifting Light's attention and decreasing his resource mining, Jaedong knows he can delay Light's construction of engineering bay for turrets and hence, he has a higher chance of finishing Light off with mutalisks.
You guys don't think that's strategy? Sure it was all-in but it's not like a 4-pool all-in where its success almost solely depends on the opponents starting build. It was an all-in based on a carefully thought out strategy Jaedong planned out once he saw that Light's lackluster expo defense could be exploited.
You still disappointed and gonna take credit away from Jaedong for "cheesing"?
For crying out loud, starcraft isn't the 18th century european wars where two sides marched towards each other on the field, stopped, lined up in a single file, and just started shooting at equal footing.
Everyone (including commentators btw) knows late-game terran mechanic is the STRONGEST force in sheer power alone in Starcraft. I'm NOT saying terran is imbalanced; all i'm saying is that if you're zerg, you know that a head on fight (yes, including plague, dark swarm, irradiate, drops, etc.; i'm not saying a LITERAL head on fight) against mech terran, esp in this map, is going to be increasingly difficult as time passes. Why would Jaedong just let Light continue mining resources, teching, and building up forces when Jaedong can take advantage of the weak defence Light exposed?
You guys said this wouldn't have worked against flash b/c he would have built a bunker. that's most likely true, but once jaedong saw a bunker already being built, i highly doubt he would have produced and sent all those zerglings for an all-in strategy.
Although I'm a flash fan (yes, i think flash is going to win in the finals), it's kind of disappointing that Jaedong's plays are being understood as some low-skill-required lucky "cheese" play to overseas viewers (first time on tl btw!). As if only 30min+ games require "true skill", w/e that is. Yes, please tell that to someone who has multiple osls, msls, and a wcg.
Good first post, and I agree with everything you say here.
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On August 21 2010 16:34 LuigiNMario wrote:
This for me is just like a replay of flash vs effort last 2 games :/
So? Look you are using your own created sc morals to say OMG JD u shouldn't have done that.
Well I hate greedy bastards but I didn't judge Light on that, I'm calling him out for his stupidity of not making a bunker or repairing that stupid depot in game 1 till it was red. You still want to hate on the dong? thats fine. I'm done with this.
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EPT
