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On July 30 2010 21:15 purpose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2010 21:05 Djin)ftw( wrote:On July 30 2010 20:55 purpose wrote:On July 30 2010 20:50 Djin)ftw( wrote:On July 30 2010 20:44 purpose wrote:
I know terran is a defensive faction, and I respect that it would not be the same without a camping faction.
But still, how hard I try, I just cant stand camping factions. There is just so disgusting to watch games were one side win without doing anything but camp. It does not matter how hard it might be bla bla bla, its just so boring it hurts.
Ohh and JD I liked you before, but after this retarded show, I hope you choke in your next 2 games.
Dude. Wow you are just a noob, is that possible? Sea cant move out because his main will be wrecked that way and given the short distance JD will be back to defend his bases in time. And JD is probably not retarded, maybe you are just frustrated because he lost? Seriously, some people in this thread are really annoying I never said Sea was disgusting for camping, I was more refering to mostly Flash but also Leta and other terrans who do it. My last point about JD might be alot due to frustraition over Terran building up, but he should have figured out early that all mutas was not going to end the game. So yea I think he fucked up big time. Learn to read before you post next time...kk thnx. lol everybody is talking about Sea vs JD for like 15 pages and then you say "turtle terrans suck" and I'm supposed to know that you talk about flash and leta but not Sea? Come now And yes, Jaedong lost because mass mut will lose at some point against mnm. Do you think he doesnt know that? But he wanted to win with mass mut anyway, sea defended well and deserves the win. I just think it's an insult calling someone like JD, one of the best zerg to ever play the game with 5 star league titles under his belt, silly/stupid/or retarded, like you. Saying he didnt micro good, his play was arrogant/cocky, his game plan sucks is ok for me. But calling him stupid is disrespectful because he probably isn't. Same for bisu and his pvt. Clearly he is one of the best p but doesn't seem to understand pvt quite well. I you would have read my post you would have noticed that the first thing I said, was that I know that terran as a faction is strong when it comes to defens and I respect that. BUT....and this part is important, I personally hate camping. I just cant stand it. I dont care if Sea or any other terran have no other chance but to camp, I still hate it. But as I said, I understand and respect it. Still sucks losing to it and sucks watching it. As for JD just because he has won 5 titles and is god with mutas does not mean he can be stupied as shit in a game and make a really bad call. People in here jump on players all the time for not adapting in games. JD is amazing but he just fucked up that game big time and he did not have to do it.
First of all it was JAEDONG that dictated how that game would play out; not Sea. When you got fast low-econ mutas the Terran is forced to play like that.
Secondly Jaedong did not play "stupied as shit" he play really well. He almost won the game and his micro/multitask was nothing short of incredible.
Thirdly, you don't enjoy games if you don't understand what's going on. Clearly you don't appreciate the subtlety in Sea's defensive play or understand why that Muta build is strong on that map. Jaedong could have chosen a different strategy and still lost.
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On July 30 2010 21:21 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2010 21:15 purpose wrote:On July 30 2010 21:05 Djin)ftw( wrote:On July 30 2010 20:55 purpose wrote:On July 30 2010 20:50 Djin)ftw( wrote:On July 30 2010 20:44 purpose wrote:
I know terran is a defensive faction, and I respect that it would not be the same without a camping faction.
But still, how hard I try, I just cant stand camping factions. There is just so disgusting to watch games were one side win without doing anything but camp. It does not matter how hard it might be bla bla bla, its just so boring it hurts.
Ohh and JD I liked you before, but after this retarded show, I hope you choke in your next 2 games.
Dude. Wow you are just a noob, is that possible? Sea cant move out because his main will be wrecked that way and given the short distance JD will be back to defend his bases in time. And JD is probably not retarded, maybe you are just frustrated because he lost? Seriously, some people in this thread are really annoying I never said Sea was disgusting for camping, I was more refering to mostly Flash but also Leta and other terrans who do it. My last point about JD might be alot due to frustraition over Terran building up, but he should have figured out early that all mutas was not going to end the game. So yea I think he fucked up big time. Learn to read before you post next time...kk thnx. lol everybody is talking about Sea vs JD for like 15 pages and then you say "turtle terrans suck" and I'm supposed to know that you talk about flash and leta but not Sea? Come now And yes, Jaedong lost because mass mut will lose at some point against mnm. Do you think he doesnt know that? But he wanted to win with mass mut anyway, sea defended well and deserves the win. I just think it's an insult calling someone like JD, one of the best zerg to ever play the game with 5 star league titles under his belt, silly/stupid/or retarded, like you. Saying he didnt micro good, his play was arrogant/cocky, his game plan sucks is ok for me. But calling him stupid is disrespectful because he probably isn't. Same for bisu and his pvt. Clearly he is one of the best p but doesn't seem to understand pvt quite well. I you would have read my post you would have noticed that the first thing I said, was that I know that terran as a faction is strong when it comes to defens and I respect that. BUT....and this part is important, I personally hate camping. I just cant stand it. I dont care if Sea or any other terran have no other chance but to camp, I still hate it. But as I said, I understand and respect it. Still sucks losing to it and sucks watching it. As for JD just because he has won 5 titles and is god with mutas does not mean he can be stupied as shit in a game and make a really bad call. People in here jump on players all the time for not adapting in games. JD is amazing but he just fucked up that game big time and he did not have to do it. First of all it was JAEDONG that dictated how that game would play out; not Sea. When you got fast low-econ mutas the Terran is forced to play like that. Secondly Jaedong did not play "stupied as shit" he play really well. He almost won the game and his micro/multitask was nothing short of incredible. Thirdly, you don't enjoy games if you don't understand what's going on. Clearly you don't appreciate the subtlety in Sea's defensive play or understand why that Muta build is strong on that map. Jaedong could have chosen a different strategy and still lost.
Wow do you not read my post or are you just dont understanding it?
I dont have time for this.
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On July 30 2010 21:21 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2010 21:15 purpose wrote:On July 30 2010 21:05 Djin)ftw( wrote:On July 30 2010 20:55 purpose wrote:On July 30 2010 20:50 Djin)ftw( wrote:On July 30 2010 20:44 purpose wrote:
I know terran is a defensive faction, and I respect that it would not be the same without a camping faction.
But still, how hard I try, I just cant stand camping factions. There is just so disgusting to watch games were one side win without doing anything but camp. It does not matter how hard it might be bla bla bla, its just so boring it hurts.
Ohh and JD I liked you before, but after this retarded show, I hope you choke in your next 2 games.
Dude. Wow you are just a noob, is that possible? Sea cant move out because his main will be wrecked that way and given the short distance JD will be back to defend his bases in time. And JD is probably not retarded, maybe you are just frustrated because he lost? Seriously, some people in this thread are really annoying I never said Sea was disgusting for camping, I was more refering to mostly Flash but also Leta and other terrans who do it. My last point about JD might be alot due to frustraition over Terran building up, but he should have figured out early that all mutas was not going to end the game. So yea I think he fucked up big time. Learn to read before you post next time...kk thnx. lol everybody is talking about Sea vs JD for like 15 pages and then you say "turtle terrans suck" and I'm supposed to know that you talk about flash and leta but not Sea? Come now And yes, Jaedong lost because mass mut will lose at some point against mnm. Do you think he doesnt know that? But he wanted to win with mass mut anyway, sea defended well and deserves the win. I just think it's an insult calling someone like JD, one of the best zerg to ever play the game with 5 star league titles under his belt, silly/stupid/or retarded, like you. Saying he didnt micro good, his play was arrogant/cocky, his game plan sucks is ok for me. But calling him stupid is disrespectful because he probably isn't. Same for bisu and his pvt. Clearly he is one of the best p but doesn't seem to understand pvt quite well. I you would have read my post you would have noticed that the first thing I said, was that I know that terran as a faction is strong when it comes to defens and I respect that. BUT....and this part is important, I personally hate camping. I just cant stand it. I dont care if Sea or any other terran have no other chance but to camp, I still hate it. But as I said, I understand and respect it. Still sucks losing to it and sucks watching it. As for JD just because he has won 5 titles and is god with mutas does not mean he can be stupied as shit in a game and make a really bad call. People in here jump on players all the time for not adapting in games. JD is amazing but he just fucked up that game big time and he did not have to do it. First of all it was JAEDONG that dictated how that game would play out; not Sea. When you got fast low-econ mutas the Terran is forced to play like that. Secondly Jaedong did not play "stupied as shit" he play really well. He almost won the game and his micro/multitask was nothing short of incredible. Thirdly, you don't enjoy games if you don't understand what's going on. Clearly you don't appreciate the subtlety in Sea's defensive play or understand why that Muta build is strong on that map. Jaedong could have chosen a different strategy and still lost.
well said, JD failed to do enought damage with 2 hatch muta (due to perfect defense from sea) and had to do a risk build (by taking the double gas middle expo) to try to get back to the game
the moment JD wasn't able to do a successful harass he was very behind, that's why 2 hatch muta is very uncommon, if you don't do econ damage, you lose, while in 3 hatch you can fail to do econ damage and still win
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ouch, my LB took a beating today. 1/4. YAY FOR TURTLE MASTER FLASH!
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On July 30 2010 20:36 Rio wrote:
411 Apm
What a monter
not sure but didnt nada own apm? 384 i think so is this really true that JD has 411 and thats not pure spamming?? go JD!!!!! 
but seriously though, is JD testing some kind of build to counter against flash?? he may have just tried if this works against terran players.. but why didnt he just try it in team practice? gosh its a waste getting beaten trying to counter a hard counter of the unit you are using by outmicroing your enemy. 
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Oh, 3/4 not bad, going to have to get that Sea > dong match ASAP... me and my fail sleep patterns.
Sea... such a beast, hope he can keep this up.
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On July 30 2010 21:28 SneakPeek wrote:not sure but didnt nada own apm? 384 i think so is this really true that JD has 411 and thats not pure spamming?? go JD!!!!! but seriously though, is JD testing some kind of build to counter against flash?? he may have just tried if this works against terran players.. but why didnt he just try it in team practice? gosh its a waste getting beaten trying to counter a hard counter of the unit you are using by outmicroing your enemy.
I don't think he was trying to win with out microing. I think his plan was crazy 2 base harrass into 5 gas mass muta pump and simply overwhelm opponent. JD put everything into mutas, building very few drones (like 40 off 4 bases with 15 on gas), but sea played perfect defense and attacked at the only timing he had.
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On July 30 2010 21:15 purpose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2010 21:05 Djin)ftw( wrote:On July 30 2010 20:55 purpose wrote:On July 30 2010 20:50 Djin)ftw( wrote:On July 30 2010 20:44 purpose wrote:
I know terran is a defensive faction, and I respect that it would not be the same without a camping faction.
But still, how hard I try, I just cant stand camping factions. There is just so disgusting to watch games were one side win without doing anything but camp. It does not matter how hard it might be bla bla bla, its just so boring it hurts.
Ohh and JD I liked you before, but after this retarded show, I hope you choke in your next 2 games.
Dude. Wow you are just a noob, is that possible? Sea cant move out because his main will be wrecked that way and given the short distance JD will be back to defend his bases in time. And JD is probably not retarded, maybe you are just frustrated because he lost? Seriously, some people in this thread are really annoying I never said Sea was disgusting for camping, I was more refering to mostly Flash but also Leta and other terrans who do it. My last point about JD might be alot due to frustraition over Terran building up, but he should have figured out early that all mutas was not going to end the game. So yea I think he fucked up big time. Learn to read before you post next time...kk thnx. lol everybody is talking about Sea vs JD for like 15 pages and then you say "turtle terrans suck" and I'm supposed to know that you talk about flash and leta but not Sea? Come now And yes, Jaedong lost because mass mut will lose at some point against mnm. Do you think he doesnt know that? But he wanted to win with mass mut anyway, sea defended well and deserves the win. I just think it's an insult calling someone like JD, one of the best zerg to ever play the game with 5 star league titles under his belt, silly/stupid/or retarded, like you. Saying he didnt micro good, his play was arrogant/cocky, his game plan sucks is ok for me. But calling him stupid is disrespectful because he probably isn't. Same for bisu and his pvt. Clearly he is one of the best p but doesn't seem to understand pvt quite well. I you would have read my post you would have noticed that the first thing I said, was that I know that terran as a faction is strong when it comes to defens and I respect that. BUT....and this part is important, I personally hate camping. I just cant stand it. I dont care if Sea or any other terran have no other chance but to camp, I still hate it. But as I said, I understand and respect it. Still sucks losing to it and sucks watching it. As for JD just because he has won 5 titles and is god with mutas does not mean he can be stupied as shit in a game and make a really bad call. People in here jump on players all the time for not adapting in games. JD is amazing but he just fucked up that game big time and he did not have to do it. If you personally hate camping, keep that opinion to yourself. Sometimes camping is the only way to win, if one refuses to do what is needed to win then it's fair that one loses. Too bad Sea and Flash doesn't like to loses at one point, so you have 2 games that "suck shit" in your opinion.
JD winning 5 titles doesn't mean he isn't prone to making mistakes, yes, I agree with you, but even if he hadn't win a Starleague there still should be no reason you can call him a retard or stupid as shit.
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I like both players, Sea is a nice player, and JD, well I wish this would be the final of MSL, it will be really bad if any of them lose.
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Does anyone have a link to VODs of these games?
edit: nvm, found them on sc.plu.cn
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On July 30 2010 19:17 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2010 19:15 ArvickHero wrote:On July 30 2010 19:12 PineappleLumpsToss wrote:
It strikes me that the moment Leta grabbed the middle and set himself up Bisu was always going to struggle from then on. With that positioning it was easy for Leta to cover any aggression at almost any point in his half of the map.
You can see the frustration on Bisu's face. The probe sac at the end summed up his mind-set for me. the 1 fact 3 base thing is what's killing Bisu.. he can't do anything about it and thats what gives Leta the insane economic power to do whatever the hell he wants lol.. Bisu needs to find an answer to that first. Isn't the answer pretty obvious? Just take his own 3rd and 4th bases much faster.... instead of trying to do some cute dragoon push. Meanwhile make a reaver to harass and keep the T on his toes like he used to do.
I feel like toss getting a 3rd/4th faster is not very viable against 1 fact -> 3 base, and the primary reason is that the protoss needs a lot more tech than the terran to stay "safe" on 2 bases. The protoss can't go blind 3rd base because he'll get crushed by pretty much anything except for a 1 fact -> 3 basing terran. In order to take a fast but safe 3rd base, the protoss needs at least 2 gates, core, robotics, observatory, an observer, and maybe 4 dragoons and a zealot so that he doesn't immediately get rolled by a 2-base terran. Furthermore, if the terran builds his 3rd CC in his main the protoss has no way of knowing about it until his observer reaches the terran's base, by which time the CC will be over half done and the protoss will have invested a lot in protecting himself against a 2-base terran with 2-3 factories. So all terran needs to do to keep the protoss from expanding is to throw down a ton of factories after his third base is up and running, so the protoss will have to make units, thus delaying his further expansions. Hence, if the protoss doesn't immediately apply pressure to the terran, the terran would be running away with a far superior economy and almost certainly the game.
So the issue comes down to how the protoss can exploit the fact that the terran is only on 1 factory with only a siege tank and a bunker to defend, given that the protoss fast expanded himself. A straight up attack on the front does not work due to multiple repair and the siege tank. A reaver harass comes after the terran throws up a bunch of turrets (as demonstrated in the Bisu vs Sea game on Triathlon). So I think the best way to break the terran in this situation would be to pump lots of units, get a shuttle, and bulldog the terran. I haven't gotten around to figuring out the timings of this, so this is mostly speculation, but there's very little else the protoss can do thanks to his inability to scout before an observer.
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Dark Templar > Siege Tank + 1 bunker.
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Don't understand why Bisu doesn't do any harass or early pushes but allows terrans to have equal to more expos than him and then thinks he can out macro a 3-3 terran late game
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On July 30 2010 21:28 SneakPeek wrote:not sure but didnt nada own apm? 384 i think so is this really true that JD has 411 and thats not pure spamming?? go JD!!!!! but seriously though, is JD testing some kind of build to counter against flash?? he may have just tried if this works against terran players.. but why didnt he just try it in team practice? gosh its a waste getting beaten trying to counter a hard counter of the unit you are using by outmicroing your enemy.
You make it sound like this build has never been done before.
Pure muta is one of many viable Zerg builds. It's been around for many years and Jaedong has used it sucessfully many times, against the absolute best of opponents.
You can't always 3 hatch muta into lurker since it becomes too predictable.
This map has a short distance main to main by air and the first expansion has unpassable water terrain right next to it. This makes the map very good for muta harassment.
Sea, however, was too prepared. He completely negated mining gas at his expo and turret spammed the water side. Protecting his barracks with turrets too he went straight to Valkryie and used them almost sacrificially to aoe damage the mutas and bring their health down. Once the Valkryies came out Jaedong could no longer harass the SCV line and was forced to attack the army of Sea. With SCV damage minimised Sea's economy began to grow at a steady rate whilst Jaedong's economy was relatively stuck.
One of Seas strengths has always been his versatility and reactive play, he's rarely caught off guard and this was another example of that.
If Jaedong pulled it off you'd be saying "wow that was easy, Jaedong is amazing etc...", the truth is it was a calculated risk that didn't quite pay off.
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The Age of Terran has returned.
For the 14th time.
Still waiting for age of Protoss 2.
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On July 30 2010 22:58 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2010 21:28 SneakPeek wrote:On July 30 2010 20:36 Rio wrote:
411 Apm
What a monter not sure but didnt nada own apm? 384 i think so is this really true that JD has 411 and thats not pure spamming?? go JD!!!!! but seriously though, is JD testing some kind of build to counter against flash?? he may have just tried if this works against terran players.. but why didnt he just try it in team practice? gosh its a waste getting beaten trying to counter a hard counter of the unit you are using by outmicroing your enemy. You make it sound like this build has never been done before. Pure muta is one of many viable Zerg builds. It's been around for many years and Jaedong has used it sucessfully many times, against the absolute best of opponents. You can't always 3 hatch muta into lurker since it becomes too predictable. This map has a short distance main to main by air and the first expansion has unpassable water terrain right next to it. This makes the map very good for muta harassment. Sea, however, was too prepared. He completely negated mining gas at his expo and turret spammed the water side. Protecting his barracks with turrets too he went straight to Valkryie and used them almost sacrificially to aoe damage the mutas and bring their health down. Once the Valkryies came out Jaedong could no longer harass the SCV line and was forced to attack the army of Sea. With SCV damage minimised Sea's economy began to grow at a steady rate whilst Jaedong's economy was relatively stuck. One of Seas strengths has always been his versatility and reactive play, he's rarely caught off guard and this was another example of that. If Jaedong pulled it off you'd be saying "wow that was easy, Jaedong is amazing etc...", the truth is it was a calculated risk that didn't quite pay off.
The strategy was viable but one thing that I didn't like about it is that he did the exact same thing against a low-level terran in the previous round which I think forewarned Sea.
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On July 30 2010 22:19 dtnmang wrote:
Dark Templar > Siege Tank + 1 bunker.
Yeah but you can't know that you're only up against a tank and a bunker until you get an observer into his base. So you either have to DT rush (risky) or he'll have turrets by the time you finish tech switching and getting DTs into his base.
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dammit bisu. you better win tomorrow's match/es.
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I really want to see how Best crush this lame Terran strategy , and see Bisu copy it perfectly.
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FUCK Jaedong! Trying to make another statement game by going pure muta. Got away with it vs Ssak cause he's a rookie but seas too good for that. If only he had consolidated his advantage and droned / teched he'd win easy. Ffs arrogance -_-
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EPT
