NOTE: Each series is a Bo3, however today the players will play only the first game of that series. The second (and third, if needed) games will be played on either the 29th or the 31st, depending on the results of the PL Playoffs Round of 4.
The Red Shuttle against The Destroyer of Worlds There are three certainties in life; Death, Taxes, and Kal being unable to defeat top-line zergs when it matters. Kal is 3-13 against Jaedong in his career, and the fact that he's slumping dreadfully doesn't give him much hope. Both players have not played on tv in two weeks, which means that both have had a time to relax from the pressures of the regular season, but that shouldn't change much. The map is Fighting Spirit. Live Report OP's prediction: Jaedong flamewheel's MSL newspost prediction: Jaedong
The Mighty Mollusk against The Chintoss Calm against Stats is one of the most interesting match-ups, and hopefully that'll translate into one of the more exciting series. Calm, like his teammate Kal, has been in a slump, but his recent interview shows him to be in a better frame of mind. Meanwhile, Stats is KT's new protoss prodigy, and he (and his chin) have been playing some strong starcraft as of late. Stats and Calm are both strong in all match-ups, but Calm's ZvP is his best, and Stat's PvZ is his worst, statistically. The map for this match is Polaris Rhapsody, which represents the golden hope of protoss this season. I'd call Stats a marginal favorite, but a rested and relaxed Calm should put up a strong fight, and I'll pick the upset. Live Report OP's prediction: Calm flamewheel's MSL newspost prediction: Stats
The Pretender against The Great Spamdini I don't think that anyone was expecting hero to emerge first from a group with two strong terrans, and a former MSL runner-up (I know right, that was a long time ago). Arguably, however, he faces an even tougher task here in taking a game off of forGG. KT's second terran excels in this match-up, and his powerful timing attacks are renowned for a reason. hero's best hope here lies in is his often excellent mechanics, and the little bit of luck that Polaris Rhapsody can sometimes provide. I think forGG's got this, but it's far from inconceivable that hero could win. Live Report OP's prediction: forGG flamewheel's MSL newspost prediction: forGG
The Ultimate Weapon against Violet[Name] the Un-Nicknamed Hell, I have no idea what to call Violet. He's the epitome of a player who flies under the radar. He's .500 or above in all of his match-ups, and has devastating PvP, but he's always at risk from being dropped from KT's regular PL line-up, and chokes in individual leagues as frequently as sKyHigh. But he did extremely well to get here, and it's a shame that he has to meet his teammate and (oh, haven't you heard?) the best player in the world. There's often something funny about teamkills, but something tells me that won't happen to Flash. He's too strong, he's too smart, and he's too solid mentally to be rattled here. The map is Polaris Rhapsody, which gives Violet a chance (Flash has played only one TvP on this map, beating Kal) but not a big one. Live Report OP's prediction: Flash flamewheel's MSL newspost prediction: Flash
On July 24 2010 18:32 snowdrift86 wrote: Doesn't matter
STX will win PL
I can't hear you over the sound of your team going 0-3 in the MSL.
On July 24 2010 21:31 Private39 wrote: I'm gonna give a BONUS tip to this lamer in PUBLICK and is simple FUCK you lamers of Tl.NET, i toled ya you will always get the same answere from me in PUBLIC and in private.
Utill you finaly accept the fact ou are a fuking uselees.
From: Private39 [ 1 posts | Profile | Buddy ] Subject: I'm gonna give a BONUS in prive and also in PUBLIC Date: 7/24/10 21:30
and the BONUS is FUCK YOU AND DIE ASSHOLES OF Tl.Net
Nice predictions. Wasn't it Violet who said that Flash beating him in practice led to him slumping for months and that players on KT forget how to win when they practice with Flash too much?
Jaedong, Clam, forGG, and Violet is what I want, but Flash and Stats will probably beat Clam and Flash. If hero wins I will be fucking pissed. I can't forgive that kid for being cheesy.
Looking forward to some Chintoss Sair/Reaver. Flash will begin the Teamkills starting today. Lee JaeDong! Sorry Kal, you have no chance. The Pretender will timing attack his way all over the mechanical robot.
Jaedong vs Kal....JAedong's been on fire recently while Kal is in a slump. Jaedongs vP is amazing while Kals vZ vs strong players...isnt. Jaedong's record vs Kal is outrageously 1 sided. Not one shred of evidence supports anything other than Jaedong winning but for some reason I sense Kal owning him.
On July 24 2010 16:42 Mystlord wrote: Oh, and as a note, I'll be switching back to livestream starting tomorrow. This ustream CDN problem is giving me headaches.
On July 24 2010 16:46 Vasoline73 wrote: Can't wait for these games. Way more exciting than night 1 imo
Says the man with the KT icon. Hyped about your team, though, nothing to be ashamed of. And objectively, with both finalists going... sure, I can agree with that!
And it's never a bad time to remark how awesome STX's uniforms are. I would buy one in a Flash if I could. Lil'susie?
Oh, and as a note, I'll be switching back to livestream starting tomorrow. This ustream CDN problem is giving me headaches.
Just read this, thank you so much! It's so annoying trying to watch the late-night SC games which only you/boes stream, only for ustream to have both you and him pegged as "off-air". >_>
Kal sent out two probes to scout, and blocks both Jaedong's natural, and then the 12 o'clock where he was attempting to make a hatchery with the drone chased from the natural. Probe and drone kill each other. That's hilarious.
On July 24 2010 17:13 Djin)ftw( wrote: oh man how can he lose a lord t.t
It's pretty common to lose 1 overlord to the Corsair before the scourge get out to chase it away. It's not really a big deal unless Z loses 2+ overlords, usually.
Hard to say if that runby put Jaedong ahead or not. Kal's denying of Jaedong's expansions put Kal decently ahead, but those probes forced a cannon in the main, and killed a couple probes. That said, Jaedong also went really heavily into those lings, and a good bunch of them died at Kal's front.
On July 24 2010 17:16 n.DieJokes wrote: why did kal build all those cannons? He threw away any advantage he had for mostly blocking the lings
I believe he had to build the cannons because his two to three small timing attacks with +1 speedlots left him with no army and vulnerable to a potential break (he only had 3 gateways at the time and not many guys).
Jaedong taking a sneaky expansion at 9, and Kal is forced to build a ton of cannons at his main, which surprisingly can't stop a group of scourge from sniping one corsair. That was a ton of scourge, but it was preventable.
This expansion is going to be trouble for Kal though. He's adding gateways now, but Jaedong has a nasty contain on.
Shuttle moving toward the main, but JD sees it and hits it with scourge! Only got to unload 1 DT in the main, which kills 3 drones as they retreat to the nat.
On July 24 2010 17:20 hixhix wrote: how come the mylord's stream is off-air for me? Anyone has this problem?
Try refreshing the page; fixes it sometimes. A lot of people have been having this issue with ustream in the past few days. The stream's been fine for me during this game, though.
Kal forces Jaedong to move a lot back with just one shuttle filled with dts. Scourge chase the shuttle down, but Kal gets two dts down, and causes some damage with it.
Kal looking to break out now with a huge army. Jaedong fighting to maintain the contain he has at Kal's bridge, which is pretty nasty. Kal has so much stuff though, and has run his zealots around they're getting attacked by ling/hydra at the moment, and will go down after inflicting some decent losses.
Kal moves his entire army around now, and Jaedong only just fgured it out. Kal is fully out now. Battle inc.
Reinforcements coming from Jaedong while Kal's forces are a little split and unorganized. Doing some decent damage, but now Kal's regrouped and gotten some storm.
Oh wow crackling reinforcements come and annihilate the goon squad!
The fourth goes down! Kal takes out Jaedong's reinforcements as well, and pressures Jaedong's front. Jaedong has his new fourth up and running at 3, but Kal has his third up, and is getting his fourth at the bottom left.
JD behins his push. swarms up, kal retreats towards the nat. additional swamrs provide coverage for lurkers. Kal once again retreating a bit further, near his cannon lines. JD streaming lings there and throws up yet more swarms.
A few zealots deny a hatch at 11.
Kal's nat is overrun, and lings are pushing up to the main. Kal storming the ramp taking a fair bit out, but not enough.
Jaedong has hive, and is putting a lot of pressure on Kal's natural with swarms. Kal has a few dragoons, which are pretty useless. He needs a new unit composition, and he needs more storm. Meanwhile, his fourth is still going strong. Jaedong with swarms all over the natural! Kal with equal storms!
Kal shuts down Jaedong's fifth at the top left, but Jaedong has swarms all over Kals' natural and takes it down.
Jaedong gets hangs on, gets hive tech for cracklings and defilers, manages to survive Kal's push and ball of death, then just swarm pushes with lurker ling hydra right into Kal's main and kills him. Nicely played.
Kal still in the game, but it's clearly over at this point.
Hmm, I think the mistake is that Kal didn't patrol in front of his natural enough. And ofc you can always say he should've harassed more with DTs, but you can't say not doing so is bad play, but Kal did fuck up somehow in this game. JD played really well after Defilers, before not so much. Anyway, yay JD ^___^
I feel like Jaedong is intentionally making this game feel close until he decides that he actually doesn't need to make the game between him and Kal close.
I'm not really sure how Jaedong got so many units on 4-base, with his 4th only having a few drones and his first three bases delayed in economy due to aggressive early zergling play . . .
god how did kal fuck this up? WHY TAKE SEVEN OCLOCK? just mass off three basees vs three bases and kill 3 oclock. game over right there. keep control of center and get 7 a bit later. jesus kal.
On July 24 2010 17:30 OneOther wrote: um i dont understand this game at all
Kal has archons and dragoons. Dragoons are useless with swarm out and archons aren't particularly great under swarm. Kal runs out of energy with his templar units and Jaedong spams zerglings.
Kal's macro and unit composition just died. And his base followed suit. Poor Kal can't even get some drone kills here. Jaedong is on top of all of his harass, pulling drones like it's no problem.
On July 24 2010 17:32 OneOther wrote: god how did kal fuck this up? WHY TAKE SEVEN OCLOCK? just mass off three basees vs three bases and kill 3 oclock. game over right there. keep control of center and get 7 a bit later. jesus kal.
Reminds me slightly of the Snow v. Hyuk game where Snow got a hidden nexus, got his fourth base, and then just died to mass units.
Pretty good game, though I think it had the potential to be alot better. JD built one defiler and swarmed his way into Kal's main. That lone defiler was sitting undefended right in front of Kal's army for a while but Kal didn't kill it. If he did, it might have turned out differently.
On July 24 2010 17:30 OneOther wrote: um i dont understand this game at all
Kal has archons and dragoons. Dragoons are useless with swarm out and archons aren't particularly great under swarm. Kal runs out of energy with his templar units and Jaedong spams zerglings.
Kal needed actual units ages ago.
yeah i am not talking about actual unit combination or anything. it's just kal could have just kept massing and control center for so long. 3 oclock was a free-kill but instead he decides to spread himself thin by taking 7 oclock and voluntarily giving-up the center. what the fuck kal ugh. how can you possibly lose this game. i think i could have won (yes i prob couldnt have but thats how far he was ahead.)
wow guardians morphing unbelievable, first he lets kal out without moving his lurkers, is on the edge on losing and once he got to hive tech BOOM over in 4 minutes despite both having 4 bases and about equal control of the map
God what a sloppy game. Kal blowing his marginal advantage with the cannons and letting himself get contained. Then JD blowing his massive contain not moving his lurkers with Kal's army. Theres a reason you contain at the bridge, its supposed to be harder to break down the ramp but that requires some kind of opposition. Granted the push at the natural to win the game was very unique and impressive, overpowering the gateways and grinding through the main but it shouldn't have came to that. I'm glad the gambit worked but this was a subpar JD ZvP
Why 7oclock....? Why... he had to spread his whole army along the whole bottom T_T. If he had tried to at least expand to 3, he would've found Jaedong's semi-hidden expansion, shut it down, and taken it from there.
Kinda feel bad for Kal he probably won't get any bigger advantage then this when playing against Jaedong . Jaedong was behind early game with his lings , althought Kal even it up with the cannons he build at his front . Then Kal was ahead in eco 4 bas to 3 and a half and still got demolished ,
On July 24 2010 17:34 n.DieJokes wrote: God what a sloppy game. Kal blowing his marginal advantage with the cannons and letting himself get contained. Then JD blowing his massive contain not moving his lurkers with Kal's army. Theres a reason you contain at the bridge, its supposed to be harder to break down the ramp but that requires some kind of opposition. Granted the push at the natural to win the game was very unique and impressive, overpowering the gateways and grinding through the main but it shouldn't have came to that. I'm glad the gambit worked but this was a subpar JD ZvP
This is ro16, there's no sub par. just crazy competition.
On July 24 2010 17:34 Fenrax wrote: Cant tell. Who is ahead atm?
HINT: It starts with Z and ends in G, middle ER
Thx. Thought so casue it was 5 bases and big army and tech vs. 1 base, no army and lost tech. But you never know... I am sure wouldn't drag the game out longer than needed.
LOL reavers running away from guardians. Slowest running away from slower. =D
I don't get this game at all though. I thought Kal was really ahead after taking out 9, as he was on equal bases. Then he took another base but he stopped macroing or something? I don't even know because I don't think you get steam rolled that badly by that if you had some units. It's like all of Kal's units disappeared 0.o
On July 24 2010 17:34 n.DieJokes wrote: God what a sloppy game. Kal blowing his marginal advantage with the cannons and letting himself get contained. Then JD blowing his massive contain not moving his lurkers with Kal's army. Theres a reason you contain at the bridge, its supposed to be harder to break down the ramp but that requires some kind of opposition. Granted the push at the natural to win the game was very unique and impressive, overpowering the gateways and grinding through the main but it shouldn't have came to that. I'm glad the gambit worked but this was a subpar JD ZvP
I really like this comment, and explains why Kal was able to crush JD so easily in the first major battle, JD slipped up not moving his lurkers. Ofc Kal should've had more storms with all the tempalrs around at the nat, but guess they were out of energy.
On July 24 2010 17:36 Snipinpanda wrote: LOL reavers running away from guardians. Slowest running away from slower. =D
I don't get this game at all though. I thought Kal was really ahead after taking out 9, as he was on equal bases. Then he took another base but he stopped macroing or something? I don't even know because I don't think you get steam rolled that badly by that if you had some units. It's like all of Kal's units disappeared 0.o
He was mined out in his main and natural, he should have attacked JD's 12 o'clock expansion after he destroyed JD's 9 o'clock expansion.
On July 24 2010 17:35 raga4ka wrote: Kinda feel bad for Kal he probably won't get any bigger advantage then this when playing against Jaedong . Jaedong was behind early game with his lings , althought Kal even it up with the cannons he build at his front . Then Kal was ahead in eco 4 bace to 3 and a half and still got demolished ,
I have to agree. Rooting for Jaedong always but can't help but feel bad for kal hehe.
I'm really disappointed in Kal there. He really had that game won if he'd just attacked 3 or consolidated his forces. It's a shame, he definitely has the potential to take down Jaedong but always just seems to choke.
On July 24 2010 17:37 disciple wrote: cant believe these two had over a week to prepare for this game and delivered such a crap
It really was only one error from Jaedong to let Kal gain the lead, and again only one tactical error by Kal (expo location) to lose it. It wasn't as if the game was error-strewn, and Kal's contain breaking and army jockying, as well as JD's swarm push were both technically impressive. Don't be so emotional.
it just looks like kal got so excited at the thought of finally beating JD and freaked out. lost control of what he was doing. any decent protoss would have known that expanding to 7 oclock was a horrible idea. when it's 3 bases vs 3 bases and you are controlling the center, every protoss player would have tried to expand to 3 oclock - while killing JD's expansion there in the process. why? because this allows you to maintain your army in one location and keep your center control, instead of spreading yourself out too thin. damn i was really rooting for kal. the poor guy couldn't control his boner.
On July 24 2010 17:34 n.DieJokes wrote: God what a sloppy game. Kal blowing his marginal advantage with the cannons and letting himself get contained. Then JD blowing his massive contain not moving his lurkers with Kal's army. Theres a reason you contain at the bridge, its supposed to be harder to break down the ramp but that requires some kind of opposition. Granted the push at the natural to win the game was very unique and impressive, overpowering the gateways and grinding through the main but it shouldn't have came to that. I'm glad the gambit worked but this was a subpar JD ZvP
On July 24 2010 17:36 Snipinpanda wrote: LOL reavers running away from guardians. Slowest running away from slower. =D
I don't get this game at all though. I thought Kal was really ahead after taking out 9, as he was on equal bases. Then he took another base but he stopped macroing or something? I don't even know because I don't think you get steam rolled that badly by that if you had some units. It's like all of Kal's units disappeared 0.o
he had no rvrs to fight swarm he lost a lot against lurk/ling and swarm he didnt scout 3
had he killed 3, seeing that jd didnt expand to the top left he would have easily won. but yeah, kinda hard to tell why pro gamer make such mistakes. i mean i try to get rvr with my third gas -.-
On July 24 2010 17:36 Snipinpanda wrote: LOL reavers running away from guardians. Slowest running away from slower. =D
I don't get this game at all though. I thought Kal was really ahead after taking out 9, as he was on equal bases. Then he took another base but he stopped macroing or something? I don't even know because I don't think you get steam rolled that badly by that if you had some units. It's like all of Kal's units disappeared 0.o
I think Kal had a few too many gateways while he was still on 2 base, which made his initial army huge and why he won his first big engagement against JD but he couldn't support it because his main and natural were mined out by the time JD countered.
On July 24 2010 17:41 SkyTheUnknown wrote: Kal had it. But he has to play more smart. Earlier Reavers and denying 3 o' clock after killing 9 o'clock would have won him the game.
Kal should have attacked the 12 o'clock expansion instead of the 9 o'clock, but I think Kal didn't know about it. JD losing the 9 o'clock meant little.
What? Didn't expect defilers? So what the hell did he expect. Why no reavers? Plus why the hell he took 7 instead of 3 as it was pointed out... Kal had it big time and lost it because he couldn't keep his mind calm...
On July 24 2010 17:36 Snipinpanda wrote: LOL reavers running away from guardians. Slowest running away from slower. =D
I don't get this game at all though. I thought Kal was really ahead after taking out 9, as he was on equal bases. Then he took another base but he stopped macroing or something? I don't even know because I don't think you get steam rolled that badly by that if you had some units. It's like all of Kal's units disappeared 0.o
I think Kal had a few too many gateways while he was still on 2 base, which made his initial army huge and why he won his first big engagement against JD but he couldn't support it because his main and natural were mined out by the time JD countered.
It's obvious, but I'd like to point out that Jaedong still had mining from his main and nat and third and 3 o clock while Kal only had mining from his seven after a bit, so that does explain why Kal seemed to have a smaller than expected army. Not to mention a lot of it died to swarm +lurkerling.
On July 24 2010 17:42 Lebesgue wrote: What? Didn't expect defilers? So what the hell did he expect. Why no reavers? Plus why the hell he took 7 instead of 3 as it was pointed out... Kal had it big time and lost it because he couldn't keep his mind calm...
Also, swarm was literally the only thing that could turn that game. Cracklings are imba good but can't fight that difference of psy.
On July 24 2010 17:36 Snipinpanda wrote: LOL reavers running away from guardians. Slowest running away from slower. =D
I don't get this game at all though. I thought Kal was really ahead after taking out 9, as he was on equal bases. Then he took another base but he stopped macroing or something? I don't even know because I don't think you get steam rolled that badly by that if you had some units. It's like all of Kal's units disappeared 0.o
he had no rvrs to fight swarm he lost a lot against lurk/ling and swarm he didnt scout 3
had he killed 3, seeing that jd didnt expand to the top left he would have easily won. but yeah, kinda hard to tell why pro gamer make such mistakes. i mean i try to get rvr with my third gas -.-
I keep reading he should've killed 3 after 9 but JD had rebuilt his army by then, and Kal had lost most of his 2-base mass army and was mined out at his natural. He needed to expand and I don't think he could've just walked into 3, so he took lower left. By the time he rebuilt his forces, mostly goons/archons, he was facing infinite swarms.
On July 24 2010 17:39 OneOther wrote: it just looks like kal got so excited at the thought of finally beating JD and freaked out. lost control of what he was doing. any decent protoss would have known that expanding to 7 oclock was a horrible idea. when it's 3 bases vs 3 bases and you are controlling the center, every protoss player would have tried to expand to 3 oclock - while killing JD's expansion there in the process. why? because this allows you to maintain your army in one location and keep your center control, instead of spreading yourself out too thin. damn i was really rooting for kal. the poor guy couldn't control his boner.
Kal was mined out at his main at that point and almost mined out at his natural. He went up to 7/8 gates on 2 base to break the contain, so if he didn't expand to 7 immediately it'd end up being 3 base to 1 mining anyways. I think his decision was fine, it was just his execution that was lacking. That and not building a single reaver all of midgame.
On July 24 2010 17:42 wassbix wrote: Kal choked so hard D: I still can't understand how he lost his main with that army comp he had
Cause swarm+cracklings wins pvzs? if Kal had 4 reavers sitting there then he might have been able to hold off, but that's debatable. Kal had great storms this game, but they are not a repeatable answer to mass cracklings.
I really dont get how so many of you can complain about this game. This was very very very high level ZvP. Kal fought his way out of a contain very good, seemed to take the advantage but then JD just won the game with an insane, epic Lurker Defiler Ling Push. It was just awesome.
On July 24 2010 17:34 n.DieJokes wrote: God what a sloppy game. Kal blowing his marginal advantage with the cannons and letting himself get contained. Then JD blowing his massive contain not moving his lurkers with Kal's army. Theres a reason you contain at the bridge, its supposed to be harder to break down the ramp but that requires some kind of opposition. Granted the push at the natural to win the game was very unique and impressive, overpowering the gateways and grinding through the main but it shouldn't have came to that. I'm glad the gambit worked but this was a subpar JD ZvP
Who the fuck do you think you are?
I'm n.diejOkes, I write things and post them. Also I just critiqued the best zerg on earth
On July 24 2010 17:45 Fenrax wrote: I really dont get how so many of you can complain about this game. This was very very very high level ZvP. Kal fought his way out of a contain very good, seemed to take the advantage but then JD just won the game with an insane, epic Lurker Defiler Ling Push. It was just awesome.
Well sometimes I have the urge to complain like when Kal blows a lead against Flash just so to knock the other good players down a little bit when they're playing too good. But ofc, I'm not denying Kal didn't screw up this time.
On July 24 2010 17:36 Snipinpanda wrote: LOL reavers running away from guardians. Slowest running away from slower. =D
I don't get this game at all though. I thought Kal was really ahead after taking out 9, as he was on equal bases. Then he took another base but he stopped macroing or something? I don't even know because I don't think you get steam rolled that badly by that if you had some units. It's like all of Kal's units disappeared 0.o
he had no rvrs to fight swarm he lost a lot against lurk/ling and swarm he didnt scout 3
had he killed 3, seeing that jd didnt expand to the top left he would have easily won. but yeah, kinda hard to tell why pro gamer make such mistakes. i mean i try to get rvr with my third gas -.-
I keep reading he should've killed 3 after 9 but JD had reinforced by then, he had lost most of his army and was mined out at his natural. By the time he rebuilt, mostly goons/archons, he was facing infinite swarms.
no, not at all dude. kal could have rolled the 3 oclock base easily and get up his own expansion pretty safely. his army at that point was so much bigger than jd's. and this is how a pvz usually progresses - your natural mines out but it doesn't matter if you have your third. with an army lead that kal had, he could have killed and taken 3 olock easily. kal couldn't have asked for a better situation
On July 24 2010 17:42 wassbix wrote: Kal choked so hard D: I still can't understand how he lost his main with that army comp he had
Cause swarm+cracklings wins pvzs? if Kal had 4 reavers sitting there then he might have been able to hold off, but that's debatable. Kal had great storms this game, but they are not a repeatable answer to mass cracklings.
so this is exactly what i traying to say .. zerg in sc1 is too cheap and have to powerfull spells
On July 24 2010 17:41 mdb wrote: Kal didnt expect the defliers, thats why he lost I think.
i refuse to believe that a top five protoss progamer didn't know a zerg wouldn't make defilers with crackling/lurker/hydra combination
Seriously, ZvP is completely methodical, more so than any other matchup. You can actually draw a pretty simply flowchart because if you don't screw up hard like Effort likes to do, you have no real chance of losing.
Defilers basically make it easy to kill a protoss army. Plague makes zealots twice as easy to kill and Dark Swarm makes archons do less damage as well as make dragoons completely useless. There is not reason not to get defilers because they're the unit that kills the whole protoss army.
Personally I think Kal didn't expect Jaedong to macro this well.
On July 24 2010 17:42 wassbix wrote: Kal choked so hard D: I still can't understand how he lost his main with that army comp he had
because of imbalanced dark swarm
lol everything in BW is imba. As OneOther said, Kal should've definitely expected defilers/dark swarm. I don't think JD was in a position to make ultras, so the other obvious late game choice is defilers He didn't have enough templar for storm? Or maybe he should've made zealots? I don't know PvZ well at all though, being a T player. Maybe someone else has to say about his lategame comp?
On July 24 2010 17:41 mdb wrote: Kal didnt expect the defliers, thats why he lost I think.
i refuse to believe that a top five protoss progamer didn't know a zerg wouldn't make defilers with crackling/lurker/hydra combination
Seriously, ZvP is completely methodical, more so than any other matchup. You can actually draw a pretty simply flowchart because if you don't screw up hard like Effort likes to do, you have no real chance of losing.
Defilers basically make it easy to kill a protoss army. Plague makes zealots twice as easy to kill and Dark Swarm makes archons do less damage as well as make dragoons completely useless. There is not reason not to get defilers because they're the unit that kills the whole protoss army.
Personally I think Kal didn't expect Jaedong to macro this well.
I think he just simply got too excited. After so many times he got so close to beating Jaedong that he couldn't control his nerves. And Jaedong took adventage of that
On July 24 2010 17:39 OneOther wrote: it just looks like kal got so excited at the thought of finally beating JD and freaked out. lost control of what he was doing. any decent protoss would have known that expanding to 7 oclock was a horrible idea. when it's 3 bases vs 3 bases and you are controlling the center, every protoss player would have tried to expand to 3 oclock - while killing JD's expansion there in the process. why? because this allows you to maintain your army in one location and keep your center control, instead of spreading yourself out too thin. damn i was really rooting for kal. the poor guy couldn't control his boner.
Kal was mined out at his main at that point and almost mined out at his natural. He went up to 7/8 gates on 2 base to break the contain, so if he didn't expand to 7 immediately it'd end up being 3 base to 1 mining anyways. I think his decision was fine, it was just his execution that was lacking. That and not building a single reaver all of midgame.
expanding to a far location is not how you use a significant army advantage in pvz. it's just not. you have to either cripple the zerg right there and then, OR take a base that allows you to continue controlling the center. kal should have killed 3 oclock, and then keep pressuring the zerg with his army lead while storming everything. he gave up the center on his own, and proceeded to get spanked by dark swarms.
On July 24 2010 17:36 Snipinpanda wrote: LOL reavers running away from guardians. Slowest running away from slower. =D
I don't get this game at all though. I thought Kal was really ahead after taking out 9, as he was on equal bases. Then he took another base but he stopped macroing or something? I don't even know because I don't think you get steam rolled that badly by that if you had some units. It's like all of Kal's units disappeared 0.o
I think Kal had a few too many gateways while he was still on 2 base, which made his initial army huge and why he won his first big engagement against JD but he couldn't support it because his main and natural were mined out by the time JD countered.
It's obvious, but I'd like to point out that Jaedong still had mining from his main and nat and third and 3 o clock while Kal only had mining from his seven after a bit, so that does explain why Kal seemed to have a smaller than expected army. Not to mention a lot of it died to swarm +lurkerling.
I agree Jaedong cornered Kal on 2base, which allowed him to gather a massive army. When he broke out, he had to compete with LJD for map control, which, despite the razing of 9, he didn't get. JD always had the position across Kal's bridges, and Kal was like a roman legion in a british swamp, with all the cheap lings eating goons and all.
Still, that push into the main, with so many storms from Kal, ... <3 ^^
On July 24 2010 17:50 Vasoline73 wrote: Only a matter of time before Zergs start to punish Stat's nexus before forge builds.. this is pretty common from him
Long distance between mains makes nex first relatively safe...
On July 24 2010 17:41 mdb wrote: Kal didnt expect the defliers, thats why he lost I think.
i refuse to believe that a top five protoss progamer didn't know a zerg wouldn't make defilers with crackling/lurker/hydra combination
Seriously, ZvP is completely methodical, more so than any other matchup. You can actually draw a pretty simply flowchart because if you don't screw up hard like Effort likes to do, you have no real chance of losing.
Defilers basically make it easy to kill a protoss army. Plague makes zealots twice as easy to kill and Dark Swarm makes archons do less damage as well as make dragoons completely useless. There is not reason not to get defilers because they're the unit that kills the whole protoss army.
Personally I think Kal didn't expect Jaedong to macro this well.
Damn, why don't those korean pros just ask you for that flowchart. They must be really dumb.
In other news, reavers, (storm) and feedback help tons against defilers.
On July 24 2010 17:36 Snipinpanda wrote: LOL reavers running away from guardians. Slowest running away from slower. =D
I don't get this game at all though. I thought Kal was really ahead after taking out 9, as he was on equal bases. Then he took another base but he stopped macroing or something? I don't even know because I don't think you get steam rolled that badly by that if you had some units. It's like all of Kal's units disappeared 0.o
he had no rvrs to fight swarm he lost a lot against lurk/ling and swarm he didnt scout 3
had he killed 3, seeing that jd didnt expand to the top left he would have easily won. but yeah, kinda hard to tell why pro gamer make such mistakes. i mean i try to get rvr with my third gas -.-
I keep reading he should've killed 3 after 9 but JD had rebuilt his army by then, and Kal had lost most of his 2-base mass army and was mined out at his natural. He needed to expand and I don't think he could've just walked into 3, so he took lower left. By the time he rebuilt his forces, mostly goons/archons, he was facing infinite swarms.
hm not really as far as i remember when they showed jds view he had like 6 lurk 1 group of hyds and a few zerglings in front of his bridge and absolutely nothing at 3 kal could just move up, kill the (i guess it was still morphing) hatch and then expand there while trying to hold his nat/third while getting 3 up
On July 24 2010 17:41 mdb wrote: Kal didnt expect the defliers, thats why he lost I think.
i refuse to believe that a top five protoss progamer didn't know a zerg wouldn't make defilers with crackling/lurker/hydra combination
Seriously, ZvP is completely methodical, more so than any other matchup. You can actually draw a pretty simply flowchart because if you don't screw up hard like Effort likes to do, you have no real chance of losing.
Defilers basically make it easy to kill a protoss army. Plague makes zealots twice as easy to kill and Dark Swarm makes archons do less damage as well as make dragoons completely useless. There is not reason not to get defilers because they're the unit that kills the whole protoss army.
Personally I think Kal didn't expect Jaedong to macro this well.
Damn, why don't those korean pros just ask you for that flowchart. They must be really dumb.
In other news, reavers, (storm) and feedback help tons against defilers.
They already know it, that's why protoss players generally keep on losing to zerg in the exact identical ways.
Plus you must be joking. Templar units, if you didn't know, don't have unlimited energy and are actually very gas expensive units.
On July 24 2010 17:54 Avidkeystamper wrote: This is some sort of suboptimal 4 hatch hydra build? Calm seriously didn't want to just expand to 7 first? -___-
haha this is a slightly changed version of hero's zvp. get early hydras with range, make protoss get a ton of cannons, and then go to midgame with mass economy from 4 hatcheries
On July 24 2010 17:54 Avidkeystamper wrote: This is some sort of suboptimal 4 hatch hydra build? Calm seriously didn't want to just expand to 7 first? -___-
4 Hatch Hydra is a build Calm/Hero have been experimenting with, and honestly, I think it yields better results than 3 Hatch Hydra because if the first Hydra bust doesn't work you have a lot more room to recovery. You can settle with just making the Protoss make cannons, and then just massing Drones.
On July 24 2010 17:41 mdb wrote: Kal didnt expect the defliers, thats why he lost I think.
i refuse to believe that a top five protoss progamer didn't know a zerg wouldn't make defilers with crackling/lurker/hydra combination
Seriously, ZvP is completely methodical, more so than any other matchup. You can actually draw a pretty simply flowchart because if you don't screw up hard like Effort likes to do, you have no real chance of losing.
Defilers basically make it easy to kill a protoss army. Plague makes zealots twice as easy to kill and Dark Swarm makes archons do less damage as well as make dragoons completely useless. There is not reason not to get defilers because they're the unit that kills the whole protoss army.
Personally I think Kal didn't expect Jaedong to macro this well.
Damn, why don't those korean pros just ask you for that flowchart. They must be really dumb.
In other news, reavers, (storm) and feedback help tons against defilers.
I wouldn't want to feedback JDefilers when they're under swarm, mixed with lings and lurkers, and running for your hill :p Dark archons are nice, but require some space to use them (i.e. a ball). Also, if this game had an OSL style resource overlay, I don't think Kal had that many gas to spend.
Oh, I know the build, just curious why Calm chose the slightly unorthodox method of an offhatch even if it doesn't hurt so much. I mean, most zergs choose to expand at the third when pylon blocked.
Stats controlling the game from the first second to the last. Calm's failed bust gave him the advantage and Stats just strangled him to death with the advantage.
On July 24 2010 17:57 Avidkeystamper wrote: Oh, I know the build, just curious why Calm chose the slightly unorthodox method of an offhatch even if it doesn't hurt so much. I mean, most zergs choose to expand at the third when pylon blocked.
But then you have the risk of geting cannon rushed at your third ....
Nah seriously, I think Stats can be a contender to win this MSL, always liked his style since he beat Fanta in that Starleague group like one year ago. Hope he doesn't have to play a strong protoss though in the next round.
On July 24 2010 18:09 TwoToneTerran wrote: It'll be the greatest night in starcraft history. Flash will concede with a smile on his face as the last, and first, protoss bonjwa is born.
But Flash never concedes... It would be great to see Stats against Flash in the final but that's it. Flash would win...
On July 24 2010 18:09 TwoToneTerran wrote: It'll be the greatest night in starcraft history. Flash will concede with a smile on his face as the last, and first, protoss bonjwa is born.
Stats and Flash will most likely play each other in the Ro8
On July 24 2010 18:09 TwoToneTerran wrote: It'll be the greatest night in starcraft history. Flash will concede with a smile on his face as the last, and first, protoss bonjwa is born.
Stats and Flash will most likely play each other in the Ro8
On July 24 2010 18:09 TwoToneTerran wrote: It'll be the greatest night in starcraft history. Flash will concede with a smile on his face as the last, and first, protoss bonjwa is born.
Stats and Flash will most likely play each other in the Ro8
Flash going to lose.
Flash is going to do what? I think Flash doesn't know the word "to lose"...
On July 24 2010 18:09 TwoToneTerran wrote: It'll be the greatest night in starcraft history. Flash will concede with a smile on his face as the last, and first, protoss bonjwa is born.
Stats and Flash will most likely play each other in the Ro8
Dammit I thought Stats was higher and Bisu had dropped more. After PL playoffs and getting into the OSL Bisu is gonna rise more, grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Two hatch muta from hero. fOrGG takes his natural, and snipes an overlord that lingered for way too long. forGG gets a bunker to help with the muta defense. No time for a push.
He's got a good amount of marines though, so he'll be prepared.
Agree that it was more ForGG's good game than hero's bad. Although, for once I agree with SuperArc, not getting the +1 on his mutas and instead going for a lurk transition seemed suboptimal
First goon is out for violet, defending at his ramp with zlots probes and 1 goon, doing a decent job of holding Flash's advance but losing a decent number of probes here.
On July 24 2010 18:41 Vasoline73 wrote: Agree that it was more ForGG's good game than hero's bad. Although, for once I agree with SuperArc, not getting the +1 on his mutas and instead going for a lurk transition seemed suboptimal
I'd watch this wording. An air upgrade is relatively inexpensive, but it's not a substitute for a midgame ground army. When you say "instead," it's like you're proposing that he either go Crazy Zerg or go all-in with muta/ling. You just need lurkers, especially on this long map, to defend 3+ bases. Hero's game plan was to pressure forgg with the fastest 2hatch muta build, preventing and discouraging him from pushing at a normal time. While he did this, and knowing that forgg's push would be later, he could switch to 4base management and go for his hive.
On July 24 2010 18:58 flamewheel wrote: Why, Violet, why would you do that. You have pretty good PvT, comparably. This map is VERY good for PvT. You can use Carriers...
Why would you do this?
Hell, after a proxy gate, gas steal (canceled), manner pylon, 1-base DTs, we might see 2-base carrier to round out the PvT cheese list
But yeah, I'm surprised he didn't try to play Flash straight up in this game and abuse the map structure.
Violet attempts to transfer probes but they all die to 3 vultures. 2 vultures remain and go to work on the probes in violet's main, getting tons of kills. Violet defending with only 2 goons. goons eat a mine and then kill the vults.
On July 24 2010 18:58 flamewheel wrote: Why, Violet, why would you do that. You have pretty good PvT, comparably. This map is VERY good for PvT. You can use Carriers...
Why would you do this?
Hell, after a proxy gate, gas steal (canceled), manner pylon, 1-base DTs, we might see 2-base carrier to round out the PvT cheese list
But yeah, I'm surprised he didn't try to play Flash straight up in this game and abuse the map structure.
you're forgetting that flash *invented* anti carrier play
Flash moving in with tanks and vults, but the tanks are weakened and dont have siege yet, so flash isn't pushing in quite yet. Reinforcements move in to join.
i guess most of the inhouse games look this way no one being able to stop flash playing standard so they are frustrated and cheese him all the time, failing nonetheless
On July 24 2010 18:58 flamewheel wrote: Why, Violet, why would you do that. You have pretty good PvT, comparably. This map is VERY good for PvT. You can use Carriers...
Why would you do this?
Hell, after a proxy gate, gas steal (canceled), manner pylon, 1-base DTs, we might see 2-base carrier to round out the PvT cheese list
But yeah, I'm surprised he didn't try to play Flash straight up in this game and abuse the map structure.
you're forgetting that flash *invented* anti carrier play
Hes still losing a lot of times to carriers. Snow vs Flash, Movie vs Flash, Jangbi vs Flash (last year)
On July 24 2010 19:01 butchji wrote: He probably has 0 confidence against FlaSh because of infinite fails at practice games against him.
Has to be tough to put your mind in the right place knowing how many times Flash has probably spanked you in practice. Especially since all the talk is usually about how Flash is unstoppable at practice games.
It's nice to see the players smiling and having a good time. I'd imagine the break and extra practice time off-air has really helped a lot with KT's stress levels.
On July 24 2010 18:58 flamewheel wrote: Why, Violet, why would you do that. You have pretty good PvT, comparably. This map is VERY good for PvT. You can use Carriers...
Why would you do this?
Hell, after a proxy gate, gas steal (canceled), manner pylon, 1-base DTs, we might see 2-base carrier to round out the PvT cheese list
But yeah, I'm surprised he didn't try to play Flash straight up in this game and abuse the map structure.
you're forgetting that flash *invented* anti carrier play
Hes still losing a lot of times to carriers. Snow vs Flash, Movie vs Flash, Jangbi vs Flash (last year) And this map is very carrier favoured
On July 24 2010 18:58 flamewheel wrote: Why, Violet, why would you do that. You have pretty good PvT, comparably. This map is VERY good for PvT. You can use Carriers...
Why would you do this?
Hell, after a proxy gate, gas steal (canceled), manner pylon, 1-base DTs, we might see 2-base carrier to round out the PvT cheese list
But yeah, I'm surprised he didn't try to play Flash straight up in this game and abuse the map structure.
you're forgetting that flash *invented* anti carrier play
Hes still losing a lot of times to carriers. Snow vs Flash, Movie vs Flash, Jangbi vs Flash (last year) And this map is very carrier favoured
On July 24 2010 18:58 flamewheel wrote: Why, Violet, why would you do that. You have pretty good PvT, comparably. This map is VERY good for PvT. You can use Carriers...
Why would you do this?
Hell, after a proxy gate, gas steal (canceled), manner pylon, 1-base DTs, we might see 2-base carrier to round out the PvT cheese list
But yeah, I'm surprised he didn't try to play Flash straight up in this game and abuse the map structure.
you're forgetting that flash *invented* anti carrier play
Hes still losing a lot of times to carriers. Snow vs Flash, Movie vs Flash, Jangbi vs Flash (last year)
And this map is very carrier favoured
I'm sure Flash practiced extra hard against carriers on this map given that is so good for them.
Violet had no confidance against Flash, as simple as this. Flash is a practice monster and Violet admitted himself that it is hard to practice with Flash because you lose all the time. It's good to see that Violet took this loss light. So unlucky of him to get paired with Flash...
I know that team battles have their own right but I have a feeling this doesn't apply to Flash and KT
On July 24 2010 18:58 flamewheel wrote: Why, Violet, why would you do that. You have pretty good PvT, comparably. This map is VERY good for PvT. You can use Carriers...
Why would you do this?
Hell, after a proxy gate, gas steal (canceled), manner pylon, 1-base DTs, we might see 2-base carrier to round out the PvT cheese list
But yeah, I'm surprised he didn't try to play Flash straight up in this game and abuse the map structure.
you're forgetting that flash *invented* anti carrier play
Hes still losing a lot of times to carriers. Snow vs Flash, Movie vs Flash, Jangbi vs Flash (last year) And this map is very carrier favoured
Yay the thread is now compleate
Now what is wrong with what I said?
"Hes still losing a lot of times to carriers." Then you go and pull out as many examples as you can find, which amount to a grand total of three games, one of which was played last year.
On July 24 2010 18:58 flamewheel wrote: Why, Violet, why would you do that. You have pretty good PvT, comparably. This map is VERY good for PvT. You can use Carriers...
Why would you do this?
Hell, after a proxy gate, gas steal (canceled), manner pylon, 1-base DTs, we might see 2-base carrier to round out the PvT cheese list
But yeah, I'm surprised he didn't try to play Flash straight up in this game and abuse the map structure.
you're forgetting that flash *invented* anti carrier play
Hes still losing a lot of times to carriers. Snow vs Flash, Movie vs Flash, Jangbi vs Flash (last year) And this map is very carrier favoured
Yay the thread is now compleate
Now what is wrong with what I said?
You brought up a game from last year. The movie game was a legit example but the Snow game wasn't really the carriers beating Flash -- he probably still would've lost if Snow went arbs or whatever because Snow acquired a huge advantage.
On July 24 2010 18:58 flamewheel wrote: Why, Violet, why would you do that. You have pretty good PvT, comparably. This map is VERY good for PvT. You can use Carriers...
Why would you do this?
Hell, after a proxy gate, gas steal (canceled), manner pylon, 1-base DTs, we might see 2-base carrier to round out the PvT cheese list
But yeah, I'm surprised he didn't try to play Flash straight up in this game and abuse the map structure.
you're forgetting that flash *invented* anti carrier play
Hes still losing a lot of times to carriers. Snow vs Flash, Movie vs Flash, Jangbi vs Flash (last year) And this map is very carrier favoured
Yay the thread is now compleate
Now what is wrong with what I said?
"Hes still losing a lot of times to carriers." Then you go and pull out as many examples as you can find, which amount to a grand total of three games, one of which was played last year.
I dont know if you didnt notice, but Flash doesnt lose many TvPs, so three is a damn lot.
On July 24 2010 18:58 flamewheel wrote: Why, Violet, why would you do that. You have pretty good PvT, comparably. This map is VERY good for PvT. You can use Carriers...
Why would you do this?
Hell, after a proxy gate, gas steal (canceled), manner pylon, 1-base DTs, we might see 2-base carrier to round out the PvT cheese list
But yeah, I'm surprised he didn't try to play Flash straight up in this game and abuse the map structure.
you're forgetting that flash *invented* anti carrier play
Hes still losing a lot of times to carriers. Snow vs Flash, Movie vs Flash, Jangbi vs Flash (last year) And this map is very carrier favoured
Yay the thread is now compleate
Now what is wrong with what I said?
"Hes still losing a lot of times to carriers." Then you go and pull out as many examples as you can find, which amount to a grand total of three games, one of which was played last year.
I dont know if you didnt notice, but Flash doesnt lose many TvPs, so three is a damn lot.
Game to Snow shouldn't count. Snow produced whole 3 carriers and actually tricked Flash to make a timing push against carriers. IT was a ground army that broke that push that won the game. Plus even at that time Snow was already at the huge advantage after the opening...
On July 24 2010 19:09 Lebesgue wrote: Damn, but this game by Flash should be put as an example for Terran players how to deal with proxy gates.
He knew about the proxy because of the probe timing I guess. But damn, every T player should take notes how to play against cheesy Toss...
Probe timing, attempting to delay the rax with the probe, and the gas steal. Plus I'm sure Flash knows exactly what Violet is capable of, and what his best changes are against him. The two of them do eat, sleep and breath Starcraft together.
On July 24 2010 19:09 Lebesgue wrote: Damn, but this game by Flash should be put as an example for Terran players how to deal with proxy gates.
He knew about the proxy because of the probe timing I guess. But damn, every T player should take notes how to play against cheesy Toss...
Probe timing, attempting to delay the rax with the probe, and the gas steal. Plus I'm sure Flash knows exactly what Violet is capable of, and what his best changes are against him. The two of them do eat, sleep and breath Starcraft together.
Either way, I will rewatch the vod (probably a few times ) to see excatly at what timing the probe arrived compared with a gas steal timing. Really good to know such things since proxy gates and gas steals are pretty damn common on iccup.
this vod should be strongly recommended to T players, IMO. Otherwise you can skip it...
I'm gonna give a BONUS tip to this lamer in PUBLICK and is simple FUCK you lamers of Tl.NET, i toled ya you will always get the same answere from me in PUBLIC and in private.
Utill you finaly accept the fact ou are a fuking uselees.
Jaedong took an advantageous early position with a ling runby that killed a few probes and stopped Kal's gas mining for quite a bit. From there he got his third up safely and proceeded to contain with lurkers, killing off Kal's wall before being forced back past the bridge (fighting spirit).
From there, Kal did a lot of poking and prodding to kill the contain of Jaedong, but the big move was when he snuck the vast majority of his army out from the six oclock position (He spawned at bottom right, Jaedong at top right, for reference), and proceeded to engage Jaedong's main army with his a few times, essentially coming out ahead in every fight. With this he completely broke the contain Jaedong had on him, rushed to go kill Jaedong's fourth in the top left, and essentially left Jaedong on 3 base vs 3 base (Kal had expanded to six during the battles) and had about a 40 supply advantage on Jaedong.
Jaedong responded by building a base at the 3 o'clock, which was risky as Kal had map control and that was the base in between them. But Kal decided to, instead of attack or contain, to expand to the bottom left main. He sent a control group of units down there to defend it as he just wanted to keep a hold of his advantage at that point.
By then, Jaedong had reached hive with the necessary upgrades (2 carapace I believe, along with the typical adrenal/defiler stuff), and macro'd up an impressive army with the economy off his fourth base. He engaged Kal's army in a closely fought battle that Kal might've won had he had more units in a less passive location. Instead of pulling units away from his expansion (in fear of a defiler + lings guerilla attack, maybe), he just backed all the way up to the bridge outside his natural. It's worth it to note that Kal had not made any reavers for the entire game at this point and had used most of his storms in his retreat. Jaedong did a very well controlled darkswarm push all the way up to Kal's nat, where he destroyed his robo facility. From there Kal didn't have any observer production and, frankly, didn't have the units in his main to defend against lurker crackling and swarm. Jaedong killed Kal's main and proceeded to prod at the bottom left expansion where Kal had created a desperation defense with 2 robos producing reavers. Jaedong made some guardians and that's all she wrote.
Basically it went:
Jaedong takes an advantage with lings, compounds on it with a contain. Kal breaks the contain with a clever loop around, and completely demolishes Jaedong's army in every confrontation. Jaedong holds on and Kal gets defensive and passive. Jaedong macros an army and shows Kal how good Dark Swarm is.
On July 24 2010 22:33 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong took an advantageous early position with a ling runby that killed a few probes and stopped Kal's gas mining for quite a bit. From there he got his third up safely and proceeded to contain with lurkers, killing off Kal's wall before being forced back past the bridge (fighting spirit).
From there, Kal did a lot of poking and prodding to kill the contain of Jaedong, but the big move was when he snuck the vast majority of his army out from the six oclock position (He spawned at bottom right, Jaedong at top right, for reference), and proceeded to engage Jaedong's main army with his a few times, essentially coming out ahead in every fight. With this he completely broke the contain Jaedong had on him, rushed to go kill Jaedong's fourth in the top left, and essentially left Jaedong on 3 base vs 3 base (Kal had expanded to six during the battles) and had about a 40 supply advantage on Jaedong.
Jaedong responded by building a base at the 3 o'clock, which was risky as Kal had map control and that was the base in between them. But Kal decided to, instead of attack or contain, to expand to the bottom left main. He sent a control group of units down there to defend it as he just wanted to keep a hold of his advantage at that point.
By then, Jaedong had reached hive with the necessary upgrades (2 carapace I believe, along with the typical adrenal/defiler stuff), and macro'd up an impressive army with the economy off his fourth base. He engaged Kal's army in a closely fought battle that Kal might've won had he had more units in a less passive location. Instead of pulling units away from his expansion (in fear of a defiler + lings guerilla attack, maybe), he just backed all the way up to the bridge outside his natural. It's worth it to note that Kal had not made any reavers for the entire game at this point and had used most of his storms in his retreat. Jaedong did a very well controlled darkswarm push all the way up to Kal's nat, where he destroyed his robo facility. From there Kal didn't have any observer production and, frankly, didn't have the units in his main to defend against lurker crackling and swarm. Jaedong killed Kal's main and proceeded to prod at the bottom left expansion where Kal had created a desperation defense with 2 robos producing reavers. Jaedong made some guardians and that's all she wrote.
Basically it went:
Jaedong takes an advantage with lings, compounds on it with a contain. Kal breaks the contain with a clever loop around, and completely demolishes Jaedong's army in every confrontation. Jaedong holds on and Kal gets defensive and passive. Jaedong macros an army and shows Kal how good Dark Swarm is.
Thanks so much ^_^. This doesn't make the comeback sound THAT bad though. From the tone of the comments I was expecting something like kal 4 base jaedong 2 and jaedong still winning. 3 vs 3 isn't actually too uncomfortable to play with if ur ahead in tech (as jaedong seemed to be). On top of that, its Jaedong and Kal. Jaedong the monster vP and Kal the guy that can't ever beat a top Z. My prediction is gonna be kal didn't go mass gateway after his 3rd but instead took a 4th with few gates?
On July 24 2010 22:33 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong took an advantageous early position with a ling runby that killed a few probes and stopped Kal's gas mining for quite a bit. From there he got his third up safely and proceeded to contain with lurkers, killing off Kal's wall before being forced back past the bridge (fighting spirit).
From there, Kal did a lot of poking and prodding to kill the contain of Jaedong, but the big move was when he snuck the vast majority of his army out from the six oclock position (He spawned at bottom right, Jaedong at top right, for reference), and proceeded to engage Jaedong's main army with his a few times, essentially coming out ahead in every fight. With this he completely broke the contain Jaedong had on him, rushed to go kill Jaedong's fourth in the top left, and essentially left Jaedong on 3 base vs 3 base (Kal had expanded to six during the battles) and had about a 40 supply advantage on Jaedong.
Jaedong responded by building a base at the 3 o'clock, which was risky as Kal had map control and that was the base in between them. But Kal decided to, instead of attack or contain, to expand to the bottom left main. He sent a control group of units down there to defend it as he just wanted to keep a hold of his advantage at that point.
By then, Jaedong had reached hive with the necessary upgrades (2 carapace I believe, along with the typical adrenal/defiler stuff), and macro'd up an impressive army with the economy off his fourth base. He engaged Kal's army in a closely fought battle that Kal might've won had he had more units in a less passive location. Instead of pulling units away from his expansion (in fear of a defiler + lings guerilla attack, maybe), he just backed all the way up to the bridge outside his natural. It's worth it to note that Kal had not made any reavers for the entire game at this point and had used most of his storms in his retreat. Jaedong did a very well controlled darkswarm push all the way up to Kal's nat, where he destroyed his robo facility. From there Kal didn't have any observer production and, frankly, didn't have the units in his main to defend against lurker crackling and swarm. Jaedong killed Kal's main and proceeded to prod at the bottom left expansion where Kal had created a desperation defense with 2 robos producing reavers. Jaedong made some guardians and that's all she wrote.
Basically it went:
Jaedong takes an advantage with lings, compounds on it with a contain. Kal breaks the contain with a clever loop around, and completely demolishes Jaedong's army in every confrontation. Jaedong holds on and Kal gets defensive and passive. Jaedong macros an army and shows Kal how good Dark Swarm is.
Thanks so much ^_^. This doesn't make the comeback sound THAT bad though. From the tone of the comments I was expecting something like kal 4 base jaedong 2 and jaedong still winning. 3 vs 3 isn't actually too uncomfortable to play with if ur ahead in tech (as jaedong seemed to be). On top of that, its Jaedong and Kal. Jaedong the monster vP and Kal the guy that can't ever beat a top Z. My prediction is gonna be kal didn't go mass gateway after his 3rd but instead took a 4th with few gates?
Well kal did throw down 9 gates to break the contain he ended up miraculously sidestepping so it's not like he did this all on four gate or smt. But essentially yes, he expanded to a far away fourth instead of adding more gates and going for the win
Stupid Kespa seeding gives us Flash vs Fantasy and Effort vs Jaedong semis, instead of far more epic Flash vs Effort and Fantasy vs Jaedong (2 OSL final rematches in the semifinals yes please)
Change the recommended games system, please. I want to just look there and see which games are recommended. I don't want to know anything about the games, but if I was curious, the info should be in a spoiler. An example:
It's really stupid to have to open every game's spoiler and look at what happens in the game if all you want is to see which games are recommended. Why would you include the games that aren't recommended just to make you have to know unnecessary information about the games? Why do you have spoilers at all because this system doesn't make use of them at all, you need to open every one of them to see which games are recommended.
First spoiler should show which games are recommended, their own spoilers should contain the description. This current system is really bad.
Stupid Kespa seeding gives us Flash vs Fantasy and Effort vs Jaedong semis, instead of far more epic Flash vs Effort and Fantasy vs Jaedong (2 OSL final rematches in the semifinals yes please)
Wow, Sea's bracket is impossible. In order to win he'd have to get through Bisu, Effort, Jaedong, Flash. I don't think that could possibly be any worse.
Stupid Kespa seeding gives us Flash vs Fantasy and Effort vs Jaedong semis, instead of far more epic Flash vs Effort and Fantasy vs Jaedong (2 OSL final rematches in the semifinals yes please)
Wow, Sea's bracket is impossible. In order to win he'd have to get through Bisu, Effort, Jaedong, Flash. I don't think that could possibly be any worse.
On the other hand if he does it noone will ever say his title was not legit But yeah, gl beating all these players...
On July 25 2010 05:26 Shikyo wrote: Change the recommended games system, please. I want to just look there and see which games are recommended. I don't want to know anything about the games, but if I was curious, the info should be in a spoiler. An example:
It's really stupid to have to open every game's spoiler and look at what happens in the game if all you want is to see which games are recommended. Why would you include the games that aren't recommended just to make you have to know unnecessary information about the games? Why do you have spoilers at all because this system doesn't make use of them at all, you need to open every one of them to see which games are recommended.
First spoiler should show which games are recommended, their own spoilers should contain the description. This current system is really bad.
Just make it so I don't have to read the description before I know which games to watch.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I made a deliberate point in the recommendations to be as vague as possible as to the actual contents of the game. For example, in the first game, there were several impressive turnarounds, so I thought the suspense of the game wouldn't be lacking. I feel like games two and four I can see that I put a more leading description in, and I'll see what I can change there. But overall, I thought I did better than most other recent game recommendations at not spoiling anything. I especially stayed away from the words "winner" and "loser" which I think makes it easy to tell.
But at the same time, I'm going to defend the brief synopsis method, because I think that people often like different things in different games. If you like to see good harassment, then none of these games are for you. But if you like to see interesting builds, try game 2, or great comebacks, try game 1. Stuff like that.
And I'm also going to defend my stars, because they look nicer than the stars in the spoilers, and because they're easier to understand. Like most restaurant reviews, I wanted to give all non-recommended games a non-ranking, and then put down the recommended fare in a simple way that would make it easy to see which games were the best.
I'll see if putting the stars on the outside makes this better though.
On July 24 2010 22:33 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong took an advantageous early position with a ling runby that killed a few probes and stopped Kal's gas mining for quite a bit. From there he got his third up safely and proceeded to contain with lurkers, killing off Kal's wall before being forced back past the bridge (fighting spirit).
From there, Kal did a lot of poking and prodding to kill the contain of Jaedong, but the big move was when he snuck the vast majority of his army out from the six oclock position (He spawned at bottom right, Jaedong at top right, for reference), and proceeded to engage Jaedong's main army with his a few times, essentially coming out ahead in every fight. With this he completely broke the contain Jaedong had on him, rushed to go kill Jaedong's fourth in the top left, and essentially left Jaedong on 3 base vs 3 base (Kal had expanded to six during the battles) and had about a 40 supply advantage on Jaedong.
Jaedong responded by building a base at the 3 o'clock, which was risky as Kal had map control and that was the base in between them. But Kal decided to, instead of attack or contain, to expand to the bottom left main. He sent a control group of units down there to defend it as he just wanted to keep a hold of his advantage at that point.
By then, Jaedong had reached hive with the necessary upgrades (2 carapace I believe, along with the typical adrenal/defiler stuff), and macro'd up an impressive army with the economy off his fourth base. He engaged Kal's army in a closely fought battle that Kal might've won had he had more units in a less passive location. Instead of pulling units away from his expansion (in fear of a defiler + lings guerilla attack, maybe), he just backed all the way up to the bridge outside his natural. It's worth it to note that Kal had not made any reavers for the entire game at this point and had used most of his storms in his retreat. Jaedong did a very well controlled darkswarm push all the way up to Kal's nat, where he destroyed his robo facility. From there Kal didn't have any observer production and, frankly, didn't have the units in his main to defend against lurker crackling and swarm. Jaedong killed Kal's main and proceeded to prod at the bottom left expansion where Kal had created a desperation defense with 2 robos producing reavers. Jaedong made some guardians and that's all she wrote.
Basically it went:
Jaedong takes an advantage with lings, compounds on it with a contain. Kal breaks the contain with a clever loop around, and completely demolishes Jaedong's army in every confrontation. Jaedong holds on and Kal gets defensive and passive. Jaedong macros an army and shows Kal how good Dark Swarm is.
Good summary overall. But one important part that deserves to be mentioned is the fact that Jaedong made a LOT of zerglings early-mid game instead of pumping drones. First 5 zerglings did some damage, but the next 20 or so, essentially none. Yeah, he killed some probes and started off good, but I wouldn't say that Jaedong was ahead going into the mid-game. His fourth/fifth hatcheries were really late, and his drone count was pretty low until he got the contain set-up. This is a big deal in ZvP as most people know. Thus, Kal was able to win the battles decisively and take control of the center mid-game - on top of Jaedong's questionable attacks/micro. It was really Kal's game to lose, in my opinion.
On July 24 2010 22:33 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong took an advantageous early position with a ling runby that killed a few probes and stopped Kal's gas mining for quite a bit. From there he got his third up safely and proceeded to contain with lurkers, killing off Kal's wall before being forced back past the bridge (fighting spirit).
From there, Kal did a lot of poking and prodding to kill the contain of Jaedong, but the big move was when he snuck the vast majority of his army out from the six oclock position (He spawned at bottom right, Jaedong at top right, for reference), and proceeded to engage Jaedong's main army with his a few times, essentially coming out ahead in every fight. With this he completely broke the contain Jaedong had on him, rushed to go kill Jaedong's fourth in the top left, and essentially left Jaedong on 3 base vs 3 base (Kal had expanded to six during the battles) and had about a 40 supply advantage on Jaedong.
Jaedong responded by building a base at the 3 o'clock, which was risky as Kal had map control and that was the base in between them. But Kal decided to, instead of attack or contain, to expand to the bottom left main. He sent a control group of units down there to defend it as he just wanted to keep a hold of his advantage at that point.
By then, Jaedong had reached hive with the necessary upgrades (2 carapace I believe, along with the typical adrenal/defiler stuff), and macro'd up an impressive army with the economy off his fourth base. He engaged Kal's army in a closely fought battle that Kal might've won had he had more units in a less passive location. Instead of pulling units away from his expansion (in fear of a defiler + lings guerilla attack, maybe), he just backed all the way up to the bridge outside his natural. It's worth it to note that Kal had not made any reavers for the entire game at this point and had used most of his storms in his retreat. Jaedong did a very well controlled darkswarm push all the way up to Kal's nat, where he destroyed his robo facility. From there Kal didn't have any observer production and, frankly, didn't have the units in his main to defend against lurker crackling and swarm. Jaedong killed Kal's main and proceeded to prod at the bottom left expansion where Kal had created a desperation defense with 2 robos producing reavers. Jaedong made some guardians and that's all she wrote.
Basically it went:
Jaedong takes an advantage with lings, compounds on it with a contain. Kal breaks the contain with a clever loop around, and completely demolishes Jaedong's army in every confrontation. Jaedong holds on and Kal gets defensive and passive. Jaedong macros an army and shows Kal how good Dark Swarm is.
Good summary overall. But one important part that deserves to be mentioned is the fact that Jaedong made a LOT of zerglings early-mid game instead of pumping drones. First 5 zerglings did some damage, but the next 20 or so, essentially none. Yeah, he killed some probes and started off good, but I wouldn't say that Jaedong was ahead going into the mid-game. His fourth/fifth hatcheries were really late, and his drone count was pretty low until he got the contain set-up. This is a big deal in ZvP as most people know. Thus, Kal was able to win the battles decisively and take control of the center mid-game - on top of Jaedong's questionable attacks/micro. It was really Kal's game to lose, in my opinion.
Strategically, he was ahead of Kal though then. Kal clearly thought JD was going to go mutas so he starts adding lots of extra cannons near nat nex and main though he did end up canceling one later on while also continuing to make sairs. Then, lurkers which manage to snipe forge etc. Also, he was able to get away with never making sunks at third or nat which helped mitigate the fact that his drone count was so low after all those zerglings.
Kal had some quick thinking walling off with that citadel though which really saved him or he prob would have died to all those zerglings then.
On July 24 2010 22:33 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong took an advantageous early position with a ling runby that killed a few probes and stopped Kal's gas mining for quite a bit. From there he got his third up safely and proceeded to contain with lurkers, killing off Kal's wall before being forced back past the bridge (fighting spirit).
From there, Kal did a lot of poking and prodding to kill the contain of Jaedong, but the big move was when he snuck the vast majority of his army out from the six oclock position (He spawned at bottom right, Jaedong at top right, for reference), and proceeded to engage Jaedong's main army with his a few times, essentially coming out ahead in every fight. With this he completely broke the contain Jaedong had on him, rushed to go kill Jaedong's fourth in the top left, and essentially left Jaedong on 3 base vs 3 base (Kal had expanded to six during the battles) and had about a 40 supply advantage on Jaedong.
Jaedong responded by building a base at the 3 o'clock, which was risky as Kal had map control and that was the base in between them. But Kal decided to, instead of attack or contain, to expand to the bottom left main. He sent a control group of units down there to defend it as he just wanted to keep a hold of his advantage at that point.
By then, Jaedong had reached hive with the necessary upgrades (2 carapace I believe, along with the typical adrenal/defiler stuff), and macro'd up an impressive army with the economy off his fourth base. He engaged Kal's army in a closely fought battle that Kal might've won had he had more units in a less passive location. Instead of pulling units away from his expansion (in fear of a defiler + lings guerilla attack, maybe), he just backed all the way up to the bridge outside his natural. It's worth it to note that Kal had not made any reavers for the entire game at this point and had used most of his storms in his retreat. Jaedong did a very well controlled darkswarm push all the way up to Kal's nat, where he destroyed his robo facility. From there Kal didn't have any observer production and, frankly, didn't have the units in his main to defend against lurker crackling and swarm. Jaedong killed Kal's main and proceeded to prod at the bottom left expansion where Kal had created a desperation defense with 2 robos producing reavers. Jaedong made some guardians and that's all she wrote.
Basically it went:
Jaedong takes an advantage with lings, compounds on it with a contain. Kal breaks the contain with a clever loop around, and completely demolishes Jaedong's army in every confrontation. Jaedong holds on and Kal gets defensive and passive. Jaedong macros an army and shows Kal how good Dark Swarm is.
Good summary overall. But one important part that deserves to be mentioned is the fact that Jaedong made a LOT of zerglings early-mid game instead of pumping drones. First 5 zerglings did some damage, but the next 20 or so, essentially none. Yeah, he killed some probes and started off good, but I wouldn't say that Jaedong was ahead going into the mid-game. His fourth/fifth hatcheries were really late, and his drone count was pretty low until he got the contain set-up. This is a big deal in ZvP as most people know. Thus, Kal was able to win the battles decisively and take control of the center mid-game - on top of Jaedong's questionable attacks/micro. It was really Kal's game to lose, in my opinion.
Strategically, he was ahead of Kal though then. Kal clearly thought JD was going to go mutas so he starts adding lots of extra cannons near nat nex and main though he did end up canceling one later on while also continuing to make sairs. Then, lurkers which manage to snipe forge etc. Also, he was able to get away with never making sunks at third or nat which helped mitigate the fact that his drone count was so low after all those zerglings.
Kal had some quick thinking walling off with that citadel though which really saved him or he prob would have died to all those zerglings then.
Hmm yeah that's a good point, even though I think Kal was at least even to Jaedong at that point because it's a bigger deal for Zerg to skip a large number of drones going into the mid-game than it is for Protoss to build 4-5 extra cannons. Losing forge and so on also hurts, but I could tell that they Kal was on a relatively good economic footing by comparing their army sizes mid-game.
Oh poor Kal, I actually thought he was going to win for a few minutes when he fought a couple battles and came out so tremendously ahead in troop count.
Kal tried to push upwards near Jaedong's bridge after winning all those battles, but Jaedong held the ground with 2 groups of troops, half a dozen lurkers. Kal by that point retreated because he was out of storms. Plus his half his dragoons were at half health.
He couldn't break through. Even if he tried, 20 seconds later, Jaedong was reinforcing with another group and a half of cracklings / hydras.
Kal was able to build such a huge force mid game because he went 9 gates on 2 bases. After winning all those battles, his bases were exhausted. That's why he never went reavers. He didn't have the money. Check his first person view when he tries to push at Jaedong's bridge, he was tapped out.
Either he took another expo at 7 or do 1 more all in push.
Jaedong's upgrades though, were the turning point of the game. Kal was stuck on 3-0-0 the whole game where as Jaedong was getting upgrades for attack / range / carapace. He tore through Kal's army early late game.
Stupid Kespa seeding gives us Flash vs Fantasy and Effort vs Jaedong semis, instead of far more epic Flash vs Effort and Fantasy vs Jaedong (2 OSL final rematches in the semifinals yes please)
Look at it this way.
With this bracket we can avoid a mirror final. In your scenario it's possible to have a ZvZ or TvT final... and nobody wants to see that.
This way we get Effort or JD vs Flash or Fantasy in the finals which is epic no matter what.
Wow, that Kal vs JD game was actually pretty underwhelming =/ ... I think you all just freaked out because Jaedong was playing. There was a whole two minute span where Kal looked like he had a chance. The other 28 minutes were facepalm for me. Let all the lings pass through. Lose your sairs one by one. Make goons and archons vs hive tech. Refuse to GG when it's 5 bases to 1. Go home, Kal
On July 25 2010 10:36 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Wow, that Kal vs JD game was actually pretty underwhelming =/ ... I think you all just freaked out because Jaedong was playing. There was a whole two minute span where Kal looked like he had a chance. The other 28 minutes were facepalm for me. Let all the lings pass through. Lose your sairs one by one. Make goons and archons vs hive tech. Refuse to GG when it's 5 bases to 1. Go home, Kal
Did you miss the part where Kal crushed Jaedong successive times in every big army engagement until the very end? It may have been due to a lack of overall economy but Kal had clearly outdone Jaedong in those fights and had all the options in the world. He just chose the worst one to respond to a hidden fourth.
On July 25 2010 10:36 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Wow, that Kal vs JD game was actually pretty underwhelming =/ ... I think you all just freaked out because Jaedong was playing. There was a whole two minute span where Kal looked like he had a chance. The other 28 minutes were facepalm for me. Let all the lings pass through. Lose your sairs one by one. Make goons and archons vs hive tech. Refuse to GG when it's 5 bases to 1. Go home, Kal
Somehow even Jaedong himself said that he was in a bad position in that game and what helped him win was the fact that Kal over-extended himself.
On July 25 2010 08:45 Tien wrote: Kal wasn't going to beat Jaedong that game.
Kal tried to push upwards near Jaedong's bridge after winning all those battles, but Jaedong held the ground with 2 groups of troops, half a dozen lurkers. Kal by that point retreated because he was out of storms. Plus his half his dragoons were at half health.
He couldn't break through. Even if he tried, 20 seconds later, Jaedong was reinforcing with another group and a half of cracklings / hydras.
Kal was able to build such a huge force mid game because he went 9 gates on 2 bases. After winning all those battles, his bases were exhausted. That's why he never went reavers. He didn't have the money. Check his first person view when he tries to push at Jaedong's bridge, he was tapped out.
Either he took another expo at 7 or do 1 more all in push.
Jaedong's upgrades though, were the turning point of the game. Kal was stuck on 3-0-0 the whole game where as Jaedong was getting upgrades for attack / range / carapace. He tore through Kal's army early late game.
Go to 17:45 - 19:00 and watch it again. Three bases vs three bases, with JD's fourth just finished at 3 oclock. Kal's army is OVERWHELMINGLY bigger than JD's. He doesn't even need storms, really. 3 oclock was a free-kill and the center was his to hold. After some more viewings, I actually think Kal could have finished JD off right there and then. Then what does Kal do? Pulls back, leaves 3 oclock alone, sends a group of army to 7, and gives up the center. It was 130 population vs 85. Kal had so many options here. And he chose the worst one possible that let the game slip from his hands. PvZ is all about using an army advantage at a specific timing to solidify your victory. Kal's army was maximized at that point because his main/natural had just saturated, he was pumping from three bases for a while. This is when you must cripple or kill the Zerg, not take a base far away and extend yourself. Zerg can use his upgrade/effeciency in units to come back. Perfect example of this case, although a lot more extreme:
On July 25 2010 08:45 Tien wrote: Kal wasn't going to beat Jaedong that game.
Kal tried to push upwards near Jaedong's bridge after winning all those battles, but Jaedong held the ground with 2 groups of troops, half a dozen lurkers. Kal by that point retreated because he was out of storms. Plus his half his dragoons were at half health.
He couldn't break through. Even if he tried, 20 seconds later, Jaedong was reinforcing with another group and a half of cracklings / hydras.
Kal was able to build such a huge force mid game because he went 9 gates on 2 bases. After winning all those battles, his bases were exhausted. That's why he never went reavers. He didn't have the money. Check his first person view when he tries to push at Jaedong's bridge, he was tapped out.
Either he took another expo at 7 or do 1 more all in push.
Jaedong's upgrades though, were the turning point of the game. Kal was stuck on 3-0-0 the whole game where as Jaedong was getting upgrades for attack / range / carapace. He tore through Kal's army early late game.
Go to 17:45 - 19:00 and watch it again. Three bases vs three bases, with JD's fourth just finished at 3 oclock. Kal's army is OVERWHELMINGLY bigger than JD's. He doesn't even need storms, really. 3 oclock was a free-kill and the center was his to hold. After some more viewings, I actually think Kal could have finished JD off right there and then. Then what does Kal do? Pulls back, leaves 3 oclock alone, sends a group of army to 7, and gives up the center. It was 130 population vs 85. Kal had so many options here. And he chose the worst one possible that let the game slip from his hands. PvZ is all about using an army advantage at a specific timing to solidify your victory. Kal's army was maximized at that point because his main/natural had just saturated, he was pumping from three bases for a while. This is when you must cripple or kill the Zerg, not take a base far away and extend yourself. Zerg can use his upgrade/effeciency in units to come back. Perfect example of this case, although a lot more extreme:
Yah no... Even Jaedong said that he thought Kal was going to win after he lost 9 o'clock. JD said he was lucky that 3 wasn't scouted and that Kal didn't push, (given he said he was also throwing forces at Kal to bide time so it wasn't ALL luck).
I mean if the victor says he had a genuine chance ot lose at some point, its true.
On July 25 2010 16:48 OneOther wrote: i completely disagree.
You are correct if Kal went to the 3 oclock expo and wiped it out, he would have a very strong chance to close the game out. But he didn't scout it and that's part of starcraft, he's expecting Jaedong to expo at 11, not 3.
But I disagree about him being able to push through Jaedong's defences.
Kal's army at that point was 17 dragoons and 5 low energy templar and THREE zealots. No archons
Vs 6 lurkers, 24 lings, 7-8 hydras.
Sure the dragoons may be able to push through the lurkers, but Jaedong had cracklings swarming through from his hatcheries, and would be able to push Kal back. At 17:06, you saw 12 lings take out 6 / 13 dragoons. Dragoons with no armor upgrade, no archons and practically no zealots will melt under constant crackling reinforcements.
You see Kal's first person view. His main AND natural was completely tapped out. He wouldn't have been able to match Jaedong's economy and push into Jaedong's main or 12 expo. He had no reinforcements streaming out of 9 gates.
If Kal didn't spend money expoing at 7, that would have given him at best 1 more group of troops. And if he can't do that final allin push, it's 3 mining bases vs 1.
At best, they would have traded armies. And this would have left Jaedong at the advantage because of their current economies.
This would leave Kal overextended. Not being able to protect his new expo at 8, and not being able to push further.
@Tien: He would be able to reinforce with 10 zealots coming in if he didn't waste 1000 minerals at 7 oclock. If he did, Jaedong is dead meat. All Kal needed to do was make zealots and wait for those six templars to recharge, and either attack/expo at 3 oclock or just kill JD right there. Also, Kal's dragoon army seems to be around 20 or a little bit more. Zealots are easy to reinforce, and that's why I am saying it was Kal's game to lose. He made the worst split second decision at the worst time and I don't know why. Yes I know he ran out of main/nat (I think I explain why this makes that timing even more important), that's why he needed to kill or cripple the Zerg at that point. He did neither. Even Jaedong said he thought he had lost. I am simply arguing it was Kal's game to lose. Kal was going to beat JD, until he screwed up. Yes, that's part of StarCraft, but you are wrong to argue "Kal wasn't going to beat JD that game."
@raga: There's a lot of things you should be careful about in StarCraft, but how you use your money just as two of three bases deplete is not one of them. Unfortunately the decision Kal made had the biggest risk out of all the options.
On July 26 2010 03:02 OneOther wrote: @Tien: He would be able to reinforce with 10 zealots coming in if he didn't waste 1000 minerals at 7 oclock. If he did, Jaedong is dead meat. All Kal needed to do was make zealots and wait for those six templars to recharge, and either attack/expo at 3 oclock or just kill JD right there. Also, Kal's dragoon army seems to be around 20 or a little bit more. Zealots are easy to reinforce, and that's why I am saying it was Kal's game to lose. He made the worst split second decision at the worst time and I don't know why. Yes I know he ran out of main/nat (I think I explain why this makes that timing even more important), that's why he needed to kill or cripple the Zerg at that point. He did neither. Even Jaedong said he thought he had lost. I am simply arguing it was Kal's game to lose. Kal was going to beat JD, until he screwed up. Yes, that's part of StarCraft, but you are wrong to argue "Kal wasn't going to beat JD that game."
Well Kal was mineing out and if by a chance his push with reinforcements failed he was going to meet the same end with only 1 base vs Jaedong . He probably didn't want to risk it .... Anyways the game was so fast paced that i don't blame Kal for not being able to muster up the finishing blow . Jaedong 's macro was really intence . He send non-stop armies to break Kal's ball of units and eventually overpowered him . Looking at the vod both players had phenomenal macro .
It is a very risky move on Kals part to forgo expanding and bank everything on that push between 17-19. And maybe Kal didnt want to expand to 3 because he was afraid Jaedong would harass it tơ easily.
You do realize that Kal has to work with whatever information he has, while we are theory crafting with 20 20 hindsight.
If he banks everything on a push, that means for the next 2 minutes he has to forgo any expansion plans and continue to pump troops from 1 mining base to feed the push.
If the push fails, Kal knows he wont be able to regain map control and expand at the same time.
Yes there are things Kal could have done to close the game out, but same goes for JAedong. If Jaedong could have seen Kal rerouting his forces at 6, he could have pulled all his forces and trap Kal.
All im saying is that, with what Kal had between 17-19, there was no way he was going to push all the way into Jaedongs main.
God what an amazing game of Starcraft. If only I could see it live instead of only now. Kal might never beat Jaedong, but he sure as hell delivers wonderful games. I just hope he doesnt lose 2-0...
Flash and Violet discussing how will Flash win. Flash: I`m already bored from long macro games. So do sth stupid like 1 proxy gate and I show my ingenious knowledge of probe timing to predict your cheese. HAHA Violet: You think so? 1 proxy gate is so stupid, it will be clear we are cheating! Flash: So ... ok, then you will add imba fast DT tech so it will look like this is your aim. And I will stop it with uber gangzta mines. MUAHAHAHHAHAH Violet: Ok this might work. RIGHT AFTER THE GAME STARTS Flash: F**k I forgot that BO. *looking on paper* Ahh 1 gate proxy...
man all these games were great, too bad that STX lost every one . kal was sooooooo close :\. it seems like he just sorta choked at the end and forgot how to play vs dark swarm completely or something.
@Tien and raga: you guys are very right that Kal was being cautious and didn't want to risk it. But nothing is as big of risk as taking an expansion far-away and stretching your thin when your minerals are running out. Tien is absolutely correct that everything is 20/20 in hindsight. However, I still don't really understand Kal's decision. Every high-level Protoss player would have made a rational decision in that scenario, but Kal's chioce to do what he did is puzzling to say the least. So many options, many of them decent. Goes for the worst one in my eyes.
Nevertheless, it was a good game and we will leave it at that.
Man, how I would love to see a Flash vs. Stats series. The main man vs. his #2, Ovechkin vs. Backstrom (hockey reference for non-hockey aware philistines).
I realize that due to seeding this would mean Bisu has to lose. He can have the OSL.
Not to mention taking a swig at Pocari sweat. Unless I am not mis-remembering it. Flash used to do these two things in all his dominant wins. Ruler and the Pocari sweat. If they do nothing, they at least provide reassurance and renewed confidence with memories of a more dominant time. When it comes to the pinnacle of human achievement, there's no superstition, when it comes to props. It's just using tools to condition the brain to enter a zone with which it was once familiar.
His series against Flash and Jaedong are like FBH v.s. Flash, always close, always there, always pushing the opponent hard, but always lose in the end regardless of what actually happened in the games.
I was rooting for Kal too...and even cheered out aloud when he gained a seemingly decisively advantage...
He is no #1 toss if he can't step up to the plate...thank god we have Bisu!
Oh, and STX went 0-3 and KT went 3-0. As a SKT fan, I feel very happy. Epic final, here we come.
Stupid Kespa seeding gives us Flash vs Fantasy and Effort vs Jaedong semis, instead of far more epic Flash vs Effort and Fantasy vs Jaedong (2 OSL final rematches in the semifinals yes please)
Fantasy probably would lose to light....and sea would likely beat effort...
On July 26 2010 10:42 OneOther wrote: @Tien and raga: you guys are very right that Kal was being cautious and didn't want to risk it. But nothing is as big of risk as taking an expansion far-away and stretching your thin when your minerals are running out. Tien is absolutely correct that everything is 20/20 in hindsight. However, I still don't really understand Kal's decision. Every high-level Protoss player would have made a rational decision in that scenario, but Kal's chioce to do what he did is puzzling to say the least. So many options, many of them decent. Goes for the worst one in my eyes.
Nevertheless, it was a good game and we will leave it at that.
I think Kal's advantage was a bit overstated though. After that lurker contain jaedong stayed on 4 very well saturating bases vs kal's 2 for a good 3 minutes. He was behind after the 4th got taken out, but not THAT behind.
On July 26 2010 10:42 OneOther wrote: @Tien and raga: you guys are very right that Kal was being cautious and didn't want to risk it. But nothing is as big of risk as taking an expansion far-away and stretching your thin when your minerals are running out. Tien is absolutely correct that everything is 20/20 in hindsight. However, I still don't really understand Kal's decision. Every high-level Protoss player would have made a rational decision in that scenario, but Kal's chioce to do what he did is puzzling to say the least. So many options, many of them decent. Goes for the worst one in my eyes.
Nevertheless, it was a good game and we will leave it at that.
I think Kal's advantage was a bit overstated though. After that lurker contain jaedong stayed on 4 very well saturating bases vs kal's 2 for a good 3 minutes. He was behind after the 4th got taken out, but not THAT behind.
I completely agree. I listened to moletrap's cast of it after I already watched it and he actually screamed "THIS COULD BE GAME IF JAEDONG LOSES HIS 4th!!!!oneone1!"
All I could think was... JD has been on 4 saturated bases for several minutes, Kal hasn't even come close to saturating his 3rd. This is maybe Kal favored at most. Kal maybe had a moderate advantage up until defilers showed up, but he had no plan for dealing with Hive tech. Thus, the easy clean up for JD.
The only thing that fourth did was allow JD to make more units. Which he lost all of his army in that attack near 9. It wouldn't matter if JD was on 5 or 6 bases beforehand if he's brought down to three bases with no army. The end result is the same--three bases and little army.
The benefit of the 4 bases was lost the minute JD lost the bulk of his army, so I'm not really sure what the point you're making is? It's not like being on more bases lends yourself to an advantage other than a bigger army, which JD lost.
On July 28 2010 04:32 Avidkeystamper wrote: The only thing that fourth did was allow JD to make more units. Which he lost all of his army in that attack near 9. It wouldn't matter if JD was on 5 or 6 bases beforehand if he's brought down to three bases with no army. The end result is the same--three bases and little army.
The benefit of the 4 bases was lost the minute JD lost the bulk of his army, so I'm not really sure what the point you're making is? It's not like being on more bases lends yourself to an advantage other than a bigger army, which JD lost.
Yeah, this is correct. Any advantage he had by running four bases was lost when his army got obliterated. Kal had a maximized army from three bases (right as main/nat ran out) that he literally used for...nothing.
Stupid Kespa seeding gives us Flash vs Fantasy and Effort vs Jaedong semis, instead of far more epic Flash vs Effort and Fantasy vs Jaedong (2 OSL final rematches in the semifinals yes please)
I like how you blindly overlook the fact that "stupid Kespa seeding" also guarantees us not to get Flash vs Jaedong semifinals. Selective reasoning much?
EPT
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Jaedong < Fighting Spirit > 
Kal
fOrGG![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/flamewheel/Bigfile_MSL/jaedongkal1.jpg)
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+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i42.tinypic.com/2dvsjvc.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/Stormalong/bonus3.jpg)
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TL staff? is that better XD
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