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[MSL] Nate MSL Grand Finals - Flash vs Jaedong - Page 205

Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments
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stack
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Canada348 Posts
January 23 2010 13:47 GMT
#4081
meh games in general are not as exciting these days.
Even when they cheese its boring, ie bunker rush.

I dont know what it is, no room for creativity with these structured builds?

man iris vs ggplay was a good finals..
life is short, dont F it up
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
January 23 2010 13:47 GMT
#4082
On January 23 2010 22:38 Heimatloser wrote:
is there a winner interview somewhere?


They didn't have a translator who spoke the native language of the heater so they have to delay the interview i guess
RIP Aaliyah
Qwertify
Profile Joined September 2008
United States2531 Posts
January 23 2010 13:47 GMT
#4083
On January 23 2010 22:40 d_so wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2010 22:38 Scaramanga wrote:
On January 23 2010 22:31 Qwertify wrote:
Ok - EXACT UNIT COUNT AT THE END::

Flash:
10 Marines
9 Medics
3 Vessels (likely low on mana due ot recently irradiating Ultras)

Jaedong:
2 Sunkens
2 Ultras, one on low health
3 lings
1 Defiler with at least 100 mana
1 creep colony morphing
2 Scourge


Reinforcements:

Flash:
None

Jaedong:
2 lings
1 Ultra
2scourge

From what I can see about resources:

Jaedong on 4 bases, setting up his fifth at 2 O'Clock. JD's 2 expo-bases were fully mining and the 7 o'clock had 4 drones mining, 2 on gas, 2 on min. @ 18:20, at the 7 O'Clock base 3 more drones popped, one of which morphed into a Creep Colony.

Flash was mining only at the natural which had about 100-300 minerals left. The SCVs from his main were being transferred to a new base and they successfully moved out. At the time of the blackout, Flash was on 2 bases, both fully mining with the Nat running low. (You can tell Flash was mining his new base fully because they moved out with the marines, and it was some time that they were at the new base before the blackout.)

Flash: Main mined out, Nat low, 3rd new expo running (@9).

Jaedong: Main likely mined out as well, Nat also likely low, 3rd (@3 o'clock) base running, 4th barely running (@7). 5th just starting up (@2).

We never saw jaedongs 4th so we dont know if that was saturated or not, and we dont know whether flash had reinforements at his nat


we do know jaedong wasnt mining gas from both refineries at the 7; he only had drones on the lower one and not the upper one at the very end.

i'm not even trying to draw any conclusions, just trying to get a good picture of the facts


This is correct. He was only mining from one extrator at the 7 oclock.

Were his other bases saturated? We don't know, but there is nothing to lead us to believe that he somehow lost drone count at those bases for any reason. In fact, JD brings a drone along with his defiler when he dark swarms from the back side. He consumes the drone rather than a ling to keep his ling count high. This tells me he is either going all in and using the very last little bit he has to fight off this attack to save his expo, or he can afford to sacrifice drones at the moment.
CJ Entusman #24
Vivi57
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States6599 Posts
January 23 2010 13:48 GMT
#4084
On January 23 2010 22:42 Qwertify wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2010 22:37 Vivi57 wrote:
On January 23 2010 22:31 Qwertify wrote:
Flash: Main mined out, Nat low, 3rd new expo running (@9).

Jaedong: Main likely mined out as well, Nat also likely low, 3rd (@3 o'clock) base running, 4th barely running (@7). 5th just starting up (@2).

Call me blind, but I'm just not seeing the brown dot at 2 (top right) that says he started a hatch. It looks more to me like he has a drone sitting there that isn't doing anything yet.


No. You are wrong. Look at the vision of the unit just before the crash. The vision range is short but a few seconds before the crash the vision expands. This means that a building was morphing and just popped, because a hatch has a greater sight range than a morphing hatch. (Don't argue, just look at the replay, and try it out for yourself.)

you're right. I didn't see the end where it expanded. To me, it just looked more like a drone's full vision from the corner of the map
Flash hwaiting! Nal_rA forever!
mark718
Profile Joined February 2008
United States73 Posts
January 23 2010 13:48 GMT
#4085
On January 23 2010 22:38 Qwertify wrote:
Also of note, at the tim eof the blackout, on the minimap it is clear that Flash's forces were retreating.



This. In the last two seconds, Flash was pulling away from 7. Watch the minimap. Jaedong had held him off and Flash's min-only hadn't even been online for 30 seconds. He was retreating and preparing to make a (most likely) last stand.
machinus
Profile Joined January 2010
United States292 Posts
January 23 2010 13:48 GMT
#4086
On January 23 2010 22:41 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2010 22:39 machinus wrote:
Wouldn't kespa have a replay that they could use to give more specific information?

Releasing it might make them look like even bigger morons, but they could possibly have this.


no. a game must be completed for a replay to be saved. if every instance of sc being used in the game (that is, both players and all observers) crashes, which is what occurred here tonight, then it is not possible to save a replay


I wasn't clear on how much was included in the power outage...so the kespa observers were using the same power I suppose? The cameras stayed on so it seemed like it was possible some things didn't get cut...
stack
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Canada348 Posts
January 23 2010 13:48 GMT
#4087
Oh and I can't wait for follow up interviews with the bonjwas...that alone makes this crap kinda worthwhile for me.
life is short, dont F it up
7mk
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Germany10157 Posts
January 23 2010 13:51 GMT
#4088
On January 23 2010 22:47 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2010 22:38 Heimatloser wrote:
is there a winner interview somewhere?


They didn't have a translator who spoke the native language of the heater so they have to delay the interview i guess


I actually have a transcript of the original right here:

+ Show Spoiler [winner interview] +

Q:01100001000111000011100000
A:0111001010000100100011010ROFL100010101011101010100

Q:10010101010101000000111111100001010
A:0101010010101001111111111111111000010000000000000000111100100101010101010101010101

Q:100101010101000101010100101
A:0101001010100101010101001010100101010010101010010101010011010100101010100101
0101010010101001011MBCROFLFUCKINGFAIL010101010101001010101010101010100
11001010100101010101010010101010101010010110100101

Q:1010101001010101010
A:0101010100000100101010101001010100101010101001101001010011110001010TOOBADIMBANNEDFROMTHEOSL0101010100101010101001010010101010101001
100110010101
beep boop
Holgerius
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden16951 Posts
January 23 2010 13:51 GMT
#4089
If there ever was any doubt of what league is the most awesome, OSL or MSL, I think that issue is settled 100% after this.
I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence.
BG1
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Canada1550 Posts
January 23 2010 13:51 GMT
#4090
On January 23 2010 22:43 Vivi57 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2010 22:41 Feefee wrote:
What was flash's mineral count though? You can't really stay low on minerals with mnm, even pros start climbing to 1k after awhile. I bet he had enough buffer to get his 3rd up.
Then again he was pumping stuff like crazy, maybe he actually did manage to keep his minerals low.

flash's main was mined out, I'm sure he was spending every mineral he got. What's more important is jd's resource count. How many waves of units he can throw at flash makes all the difference. If he had no mins in the bank and barely any units morphing, then flash had the advantage, but if jd had a ton saved, he could pump wave after wave and just brute force flash back.




The thing is even if Flash had some mins saved up and JD didn't, at this point he was up on Flash 3 bases to one, Flash has 1 factory, no tanks, no siege mode upgraded, all he has is mnm. Dark swarms and plagues will overrun him with ease even if he has a ton of mnm, not to mention JD will able to refill much faster with better econ. He has a min only base and even if JD somehow doesn't kill him, he won't be able to take another base, he'll just starve.
There was once a dream that was Esports. You could only whisper it. Anything more than a whisper and it would vanish... Now is the time to make that dream a reality!
d_so
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)3262 Posts
January 23 2010 13:53 GMT
#4091
On January 23 2010 22:47 Qwertify wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2010 22:40 d_so wrote:
On January 23 2010 22:38 Scaramanga wrote:
On January 23 2010 22:31 Qwertify wrote:
Ok - EXACT UNIT COUNT AT THE END::

Flash:
10 Marines
9 Medics
3 Vessels (likely low on mana due ot recently irradiating Ultras)

Jaedong:
2 Sunkens
2 Ultras, one on low health
3 lings
1 Defiler with at least 100 mana
1 creep colony morphing
2 Scourge


Reinforcements:

Flash:
None

Jaedong:
2 lings
1 Ultra
2scourge

From what I can see about resources:

Jaedong on 4 bases, setting up his fifth at 2 O'Clock. JD's 2 expo-bases were fully mining and the 7 o'clock had 4 drones mining, 2 on gas, 2 on min. @ 18:20, at the 7 O'Clock base 3 more drones popped, one of which morphed into a Creep Colony.

Flash was mining only at the natural which had about 100-300 minerals left. The SCVs from his main were being transferred to a new base and they successfully moved out. At the time of the blackout, Flash was on 2 bases, both fully mining with the Nat running low. (You can tell Flash was mining his new base fully because they moved out with the marines, and it was some time that they were at the new base before the blackout.)

Flash: Main mined out, Nat low, 3rd new expo running (@9).

Jaedong: Main likely mined out as well, Nat also likely low, 3rd (@3 o'clock) base running, 4th barely running (@7). 5th just starting up (@2).

We never saw jaedongs 4th so we dont know if that was saturated or not, and we dont know whether flash had reinforements at his nat


we do know jaedong wasnt mining gas from both refineries at the 7; he only had drones on the lower one and not the upper one at the very end.

i'm not even trying to draw any conclusions, just trying to get a good picture of the facts


This is correct. He was only mining from one extrator at the 7 oclock.

Were his other bases saturated? We don't know, but there is nothing to lead us to believe that he somehow lost drone count at those bases for any reason. In fact, JD brings a drone along with his defiler when he dark swarms from the back side. He consumes the drone rather than a ling to keep his ling count high. This tells me he is either going all in and using the very last little bit he has to fight off this attack to save his expo, or he can afford to sacrifice drones at the moment.


that's a good point but it could have just been a mistake while rallying

i just really wish we could have seen the fight at the 7 finish. they were both out of units, like punch drunk fighters, and the winner of that battle would have gone a long way to winning the game... the fact that the decision was made by resource count and bases really leaves an unsatisfying taste in my mouth, especially since in any normal zvt game, zerg should be up at least 1 base + have a huge amount of resources stored just by the nature of their respective macro mechanics.

can 2 or 3 sci vessels + ten marines + 6 medics beat two half dead ultras, one dark swarm, one defiler, and two sunkens? maybe... but the longer jd delayed the fight, even by seconds, would lead to an overwhelming amount of forces pouring in through they nydus (unless flash won the fight quick enough to kill the nydus).... ARGGHHH i don't know man this just sucks ass
manner
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
January 23 2010 13:53 GMT
#4092
Quoting myself from another thread;

On January 23 2010 22:28 G.s)NarutO wrote:
If you guys want an objective statement about game 3, read this, if you are just a fanboy and will not accept what I write no matter what, you might aswell skip my post.

I like Flash and Jaedong and didn't really care who wins the final, I just wanted to see good games, thats why I can write an opinion which is not biased.

Game 3 went well for Flash in the beginning but when Jaedongs 5th's armor upgrade finished and he got a super effective flank against tons of marines which were trying to kill the 3 o`clock expansion the game slipped away from Flash.

He macro'ed great and always kept pressuring, but when Jaedong saved his 4th base, being on 3 gas (+2 with securing the fourth) and Flash was nearly mined out Main/Natural and only having 1 more expansion it turned into Jaedongs favor. They key point here was that in my opinion Flashs vessel count was really low. Jaedong didn't quiet have a scary ultra army yet, but with that additional expansion and swarm he would have added ultralisks one by one and in the its pretty sure that he would have won the game. Obviously Flash is insanely good and even in that situation he could probably somehow win the game, but it looked really grim.

I can understand the Flash fans didn't agree on the decision that Jaedong got the win, but to be honest the power outage put KeSPa into a lose-lose situation. I'm pretty sure if Jaedong would have been asked he would have played a regame even if he saw himself with an advantage, but that just wasn't his decision.

It wasn't really fair to reward the win to Jaedong because as IdrA said, even with an disadvantage a player should never lose a game like that. On the other hand it would be really unfair towards Jaedong to force him to play a regame on the same map where he most likely had the game won.

Just my 2 cents..


CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
endGame
Profile Joined June 2009
United States394 Posts
January 23 2010 13:54 GMT
#4093
I just feel very disappointed. I feel bad that Jaedong's victory has been cheapened, especially since he worked so hard to get to those finals and to practice for them. It's very unfortunate and truly disappointing. The series wasn't fair to either player, honestly.
"...As the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must." -Thucydides
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
January 23 2010 13:55 GMT
#4094
Unless one player has no units left and the opponent is in his base killing his buildings there should always be a re-game.
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
d_so
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)3262 Posts
January 23 2010 13:55 GMT
#4095
On January 23 2010 22:48 mark718 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2010 22:38 Qwertify wrote:
Also of note, at the tim eof the blackout, on the minimap it is clear that Flash's forces were retreating.



This. In the last two seconds, Flash was pulling away from 7. Watch the minimap. Jaedong had held him off and Flash's min-only hadn't even been online for 30 seconds. He was retreating and preparing to make a (most likely) last stand.


ur right. i just watched it again. and if flash retreated his forces, jaedong's econ would have kicked in and he would have won the game
manner
Qwertify
Profile Joined September 2008
United States2531 Posts
January 23 2010 13:55 GMT
#4096
[image loading]


We have 6 drones, 2 extractors.

Any clue as to what that yellow ball in the center of the map is?? Is it the Science Facility? Or Eng Bay??
CJ Entusman #24
BROverlord
Profile Joined January 2010
United States80 Posts
January 23 2010 13:56 GMT
#4097
On January 23 2010 22:47 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2010 22:38 Heimatloser wrote:
is there a winner interview somewhere?


They didn't have a translator who spoke the native language of the heater so they have to delay the interview i guess

best post ever.
space heater: 5th bonjwa
3nickma
Profile Joined November 2007
Denmark1510 Posts
January 23 2010 13:56 GMT
#4098
On January 23 2010 22:41 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2010 22:39 machinus wrote:
Wouldn't kespa have a replay that they could use to give more specific information?

Releasing it might make them look like even bigger morons, but they could possibly have this.


no. a game must be completed for a replay to be saved. if every instance of sc being used in the game (that is, both players and all observers) crashes, which is what occurred here tonight, then it is not possible to save a replay


What about FPVODs?
L E E J A E D O N G ! <3
boredcouch
Profile Joined May 2008
United States110 Posts
January 23 2010 13:56 GMT
#4099
I'm pretty sure its a sci fac because I remember seeing him lift it off earlier in the match and move it in that direction.
starcraft is the greatest game ever
BG1
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Canada1550 Posts
January 23 2010 13:56 GMT
#4100
On January 23 2010 22:55 Qwertify wrote:
[image loading]


We have 6 drones, 2 extractors.

Any clue as to what that yellow ball in the center of the map is?? Is it the Science Facility? Or Eng Bay??



Science facility, he flew it over there during one of the fights.
There was once a dream that was Esports. You could only whisper it. Anything more than a whisper and it would vanish... Now is the time to make that dream a reality!
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