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On December 02 2009 22:04 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2009 21:48 usopsama wrote:On December 02 2009 20:51 StorkHwaiting wrote:On December 02 2009 20:49 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:46 StorkHwaiting wrote:On December 02 2009 20:37 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:35 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On December 02 2009 20:33 Chen wrote:On December 02 2009 20:32 motbob wrote:On December 02 2009 20:31 Chen wrote:
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Bullshit. if Flash scouted that ninja expo for Stork, he wins. He didnt, Stork pumped out way more units that Flash thought was physically possible and had his push broken.
Fantasy woulda punished Stork for taking those expo's, its Flash's fault he never checked for them So Fantasy would have won that game. Uh huh. Fantasy wouldn'tve let stork take 60 billion expos, considering his style. Stork probably would've beaten him anyways but Flash needs to learn a little from him and harass once in a while. First vs Best and now vs Stork hes lost cause he lets toss take way to many uncontested bases There was no opportunity for harass. Stork had his expansions blocked off and cannoned. There was like 1 cannon... It doesnt take that much to get rid of it and considering the extra troops stork got off that base it would definitely be worth it to invest a little to take that out, that way even if your push fails you accomplished something Stork had a shuttle the entire time. He's not going to knock down the pylon wall and cannon AND take out the nex before STork can shuttle a few goons over a single cliff. This is the same reason Stork was able to slip 3 goons behind Flash's tanks. I'm 90% sure i heard the sound of a shuttle dying to turrets when he dropped his first 4 zlots on the initial tanks when he first tried to break the push. did he make a second shuttle? cause i didnt see one after that God I'm not even going to bother anymore. You're that same dude who thinks spawning pools cost 200 minerals. Stork wouldn't need to bulldog if Flash sends 1/3rd of his units to try to bust the 3rd!! HELLO!? Rofl. You're the same person from last night. Guess what? Pretty much everyone disagree with you. Rofl. I agree. Someone like you should be banned. Yes, ban people because they disagree with you. You're a nice person 
PvT imba is just like TvZ imba. Without maps that really push the advantage, it can be countered. Flash's anti-carrier build is the perfect example for this. BUT, it is an advantage, so if the skill difference is not too great, it gives one side the initiative and leaves the other guessing. What happened here is the gas steal which probably led Flash to prepare for Stork's sweet elevator tactics, DTs, or his many abuses of proxy-robos. Stork knew Flash had prepared for his standard style and instead went for a massive macro game, something he hasn't done in ages. Flash's timing push was brilliant and against a lesser player would have finished the game. Flash was never too much behind from an economic perspective, but Stork kept one step ahead of him in the tech switches, using mobility to cleverly defend from possible harassment tactics, knowing that if Flash would choose that, he'd have to lower his Goliath count, and any slight advantage gained wouldn't be enough to make up for the damaged defensive line once the carriers hit.
This is very much like chess - a carefully thought out strategy using a lot of forcing moves and clever tactics to push a slight advantage further and further until he reaches a point when he can just overwhelm the opposition. You can say it's balance that had that game, but there was not one move that's nearly as crushing as 3 base spire as a reply for FFE, or a bunker rush/fake bunker rush to 12-hatch. Stork played perfectly, and everyone should know by now that when Stork does that, he can beat anyone. Flash could have done better with perfect scouting, but not by much (and everyone could do better with perfect scouting). And Stork probably had backup plans in case Flash reacted better. Flash probably knew the expansion count by the timings and scouting he did have. But the bottom line is simple: Flash didn't lose this game, Stork won it. Arguing about the subtleties is one thing, but this is not anywhere near the vicinity of the Bisu vs. Shine where Bisu did everything perfectly and lost to an inferior opponent. This is more like Jaedong vs. Stork @ WCG, when both sides played incredibly well but the slight imbalances were what made the difference.
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On December 03 2009 00:23 Wala.Revolution wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2009 00:07 Heimatloser wrote:
I hate it when some random noobs come out with not even selfmade strategies to kill the S-Class gamers, because thats what happened IN EVERY D*MN MATCHUP TODAY!!! Jaedong, Pure, Shine, and Stork are not random newbies -_- I'm guessing you're referring to Fantasy vs Shine... but still.
Actually, if u are refereing to Shine, u cannot be more wrong. Fantasy came up with a random strat and Shine punished him dearly for it by playing standard.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 03 2009 00:23 Wala.Revolution wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2009 00:07 Heimatloser wrote:
I hate it when some random noobs come out with not even selfmade strategies to kill the S-Class gamers, because thats what happened IN EVERY D*MN MATCHUP TODAY!!! Jaedong, Pure, Shine, and Stork are not random newbies -_- I'm guessing you're referring to Fantasy vs Shine... but still.
Not to mention, go.go, Hwasin, and Fantasy are not S-class.
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On December 02 2009 21:08 StorkHwaiting wrote:
It's not opportunity cost. It's the flat cost of a drone. SCVs don't disappear into buildings. Drones do. When the hell did I ever say anything about opportunity cost?
Also, by this logic a reaver harass that kills 50 drones didn't really do any damage because those drones were already paid for right? They're a "sunk cost."
It's a pretty simple concept. SCVs are usable after building something. Drones disappear. Why this should even be a debate is beyond me.
I'm sorry but you are wrong. Opportunity cost is the correct term to use here. When a drone is killed to make a building, what's lost is not the drone, nor the 50 minerals, but the minerals that drone is able to mine for the rest of the life. However this is not the only thing that is lost. To correctly evaluate the cost of the drone you have to add up weighted value of its mining time, its use as a sunken, its compounded use as a tech building (which helps the player develop his army which ensures even more mining). But since these other uses cannot be easily monetized we do not talk about them here.
Imagine you're playing a zerg opponent whose drones don't do nothing. If you kill one of his drones, you didn't make him lose 50 minerals. Since SC players win or lose based on buildings, technically you made him lose a chance to have one last standing building somewhere on the map. But other than that, the zerg player is the same before and after the kill.
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FUCK YEA STORK I KNEW U COULD DO IT!
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hurray HBR, beating another Terran
let's look at the checklist:
[x] Gas steal
[ ] Proxy Gates
[x] DTs
[x] Hidden expo
[x] Easily walled protoss 3rd
[x] Unhindered Counter-attack path
[x] Psi storm
[x] 2 protoss expansions impossibly far apart from one another
[x] Mass carriers
The Stork/HBR team gets 89%! That's a solid B+ on PvT abuse!
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Why does so many ppl think Shine is cheesy? I have never seen him cheese. Is it just nerd rage?
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Sad to see Flash having such trouble against Protoss these days :/
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FUCK YEA STORKUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Sunyveil thats part of the game...
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On December 03 2009 00:23 Wala.Revolution wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2009 00:07 Heimatloser wrote:
I hate it when some random noobs come out with not even selfmade strategies to kill the S-Class gamers, because thats what happened IN EVERY D*MN MATCHUP TODAY!!! Jaedong, Pure, Shine, and Stork are not random newbies -_- I'm guessing you're referring to Fantasy vs Shine... but still.
Reading comprehension FTL people. He's calling "you" all the random newbies for coming up with strats as to how Flash could've beaten Stork.
When Flash pushed, Stork separated 3 goons from his army to guard the bottom path and possibly kill vulture reinforcements. These goons can also protect his 3rd base. He would later use these goons to flank Flash's contain.
Stork's 3rd could not be touched in this game. If Flash diverted forces, his timing push/contain would be weakened/destroyed, making the entire thing pointless to begin with. If Flash went for the 3rd, Stork would've cut off reinforcements and have enough time to macro up more gates/units and still crush Flash's attack later on or counter Flash's main.
It's only reasonable to attack the 3rd after the contain is successful, but the contain was a struggle the entire time.
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Wow, this is quite possibly the most awful poster I have ever seen. Just about all his posts are asinine one-liners.
Here's a tip for you, vRoOk: your brainchild wasn't funny or clever the first time you came up with it. Maybe it's time to put it to rest?
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Wow these are already up on Jon747
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well that was a funny night
poor hwasin
wish someone would compile the results of every tvp where p has gone double nexus. bet they win at least 70%
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Hey IdrA, having first-hand experience of TvP against Stork and all, maybe you can tell us what Flash should've done differently?
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picking terran was the main problem there
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playing on heartbreak is a big nono too
flash really messed that one up
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not to mention having stork send out his 7th probe. terran should never allow protoss to choose to do that.
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On December 03 2009 00:51 Sunyveil wrote:
hurray HBR, beating another Terran
let's look at the checklist:
[x] Gas steal
[ ] Proxy Gates
[x] DTs
[x] Hidden expo
[x] Easily walled protoss 3rd
[x] Unhindered Counter-attack path
[x] Psi storm
[x] 2 protoss expansions impossibly far apart from one another
[x] Mass carriers
The Stork/HBR team gets 89%! That's a solid B+ on PvT abuse!
Does a proxy base count in place of proxy gates? Stork took the base right above Flash rofl.
Although I've never heard of unhindered counter-attack path as a Protoss imba o_0. Nor expansions far away from each other being a Protoss exclusive... Zerg regularly do this and I've seen Terran try to ninja expo that way vs Toss... but maybe you were just kidding
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On December 03 2009 01:39 IdrA wrote:
not to mention having stork send out his 7th probe. terran should never allow protoss to choose to do that.
What do you mean? Too late of a scout?
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consider the nature of the 2 posts above it
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EPT
