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[PL] All-Stars - Page 57
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On September 26 2009 21:40 cUrsOr wrote: Exactly. I'm sure exact same game from Jaedong would crush 99% of progamers. He gets to say Bisu is just genius. I... would dare to say that if JD plays like that he'd lose to a variety of Protoss players O_o But yeah Bisu played well I guess, didn't concentrate on it enough to tell. | ||
motbob
United States12546 Posts
On September 26 2009 21:42 Holgerius wrote: Time to close the the ''ZvP is imbalanced''-thread now? One game doesn't change all those statistics. Well, actually, yeah it does. But only by 0.1%! Kind of dumb to say this after 1 game in favor of Protoss. | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
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Kyo Yuy
United States1286 Posts
On September 26 2009 21:42 Holgerius wrote: Time to close the the ''ZvP is imbalanced''-thread now? Using Bisu vs. Jaedong to judge ZvP is like using Fantasy/Flash vs. Jaedong to judge TvZ. Two S-class players having one match is not indicative of the entire matchup across the Starcraft scene. | ||
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sh02hp0869
Sweden460 Posts
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On September 26 2009 21:43 cUrsOr wrote: He had some pretty wicked lurker contains, and early agression it looked like to me. But the speedlot pushes just looked so dangerous :O I thought Jaedong's lurkers were totally ineffective and that's why he lost. If he had spent the resources on some other unit he would have been better off. | ||
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Count9
China10928 Posts
Bisu probe with infinite life span, zealots vs. lurkers, lurker in back then attempted break, not something you see everyday. Was very exciting until JD suicided on bridges. | ||
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3nickma
Denmark1510 Posts
 Anyway Bisu won and the way it played out he deserved it... | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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UGC4
Peru532 Posts
dude he just came back from BC, canada on this long vacation with his close "friend" LOL best one so far, thx for the laugh | ||
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On September 26 2009 21:48 Holgerius wrote: If it really was imbalanced, would Jaedong lose a single game? Seriously, take his ridiculous skill and combine that with imbalance and he would win 90 % of all his ZvPs. Look. Zergs are killing Protosses right now all of a sudden. The matchup is currently imbalanced, period. I have no idea why people are even arguing about this. The statistics I posted on Destination alone (going from 50% ZvP before March 1st to 60% after) should end the discussion of whether the metagame is favoring zerg or not. And your argument doesn't work because tbh people copying Jaedong's mid-game strategy is probably why Protosses are finding it really hard to win in the first place. | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
On September 26 2009 21:45 motbob wrote: I thought Jaedong's lurkers were totally ineffective and that's why he lost. If he had spent the resources on some other unit he would have been better off. Some other unit is very effective against Bisu. He can't stand em! Its obvious they were mowed through, but I thought it looked like the right move at the time. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66366 Posts
On September 26 2009 21:47 3nickma wrote: Someone saying SK vs. Oz in the opening of new season? yeah Hwaseung Oz coached said that opener match is between Winner and Runner-up of previous Proleague season, so it's SKT1 vs Oz | ||
Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
On September 26 2009 21:52 motbob wrote: Look. Zergs are killing Protosses right now all of a sudden. The matchup is currently imbalanced, period. I have no idea why people are even arguing about this. The statistics I posted on Destination alone (going from 50% ZvP before March 1st to 60% after) should end the discussion of whether the metagame is favoring zerg or not. And your argument doesn't work because tbh people copying Jaedong's mid-game strategy is probably why Protosses are finding it really hard to win in the first place. motbob: Statistics on one map don't point to the overall trend of a metagame, especially when the stats have shifted back to 50% now. And have you looked at the individual games and picked out those that were cheeses or just plain stupidity? If I remember correctly, the 3 Hatch Spire to 5 Hatch Hydra build came out back in late 2008. The 4 Gate 2 Archon build then evolved early 2009 to counter. Then Zergs scaled back the greed and around March-April 2009 began to crush Protosses as they had no idea how to counter the tech switches and the sheer macro of Zerg players. As you've probably learned in statistics, correlation does not imply causation. Stop using one map and one trend to try and argue for the whole. It doesn't work here. | ||
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Response
United States1938 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On September 26 2009 21:52 motbob wrote: Look. Zergs are killing Protosses right now all of a sudden. The matchup is currently imbalanced, period. I have no idea why people are even arguing about this. The statistics I posted on Destination alone (going from 50% ZvP before March 1st to 60% after) should end the discussion of whether the metagame is favoring zerg or not. And your argument doesn't work because tbh people copying Jaedong's mid-game strategy is probably why Protosses are finding it really hard to win in the first place. Before it was 50% it was favoring Protoss. The map balance changed way before that. Also, there are a lot less good P players than there are good Z players. However, if the best PvZ players can PvZ evenly with the best ZvP players, the MU isn't imbalanced. EDIT: Also to mystlord, the zealarch push actually was used mostly in the latter half of 2008, with the domination of the 6 dragons and with JD losing to that build vs Tempest twice in a row. | ||
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Kyo Yuy
United States1286 Posts
On September 26 2009 22:00 Mystlord wrote: As you've probably learned in statistics, correlation does not imply causation. Stop using one map and one trend to try and argue for the whole. It doesn't work here. Then would 10 years of progaming history have any meaning to you? Even before Savior started tearing up Protosses it was widely believed that T>Z>P>T. Most of the people I've talked to still believe this. If statistics can't be used to argue a point, then perhaps you can tell me by what justification you say that PvZ is balanced, if at all? Also, I'm no expert, but according to Liquipedia, 3 hatch spire 5 hatch hydra is actually a COUNTER TO 4 gate 2 archon. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/3_Base_Spire_into_5_Hatch_Hydra_(vs._Protoss)#Counter_To | ||
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On September 26 2009 22:00 Mystlord wrote: Statistics on one map don't point to the overall trend of a metagame, especially when the stats have shifted back to 50% now. On current maps, nothing has "shifted." On new maps, maybe things are better for toss, but that's not relevant. It's the mapmakers' job to make things balanced again. And have you looked at the individual games and picked out those that were cheeses or just plain stupidity? Of course not. I assumes there would be cheeses and stupidity on both side and so I just took everything. If I remember correctly, the 3 Hatch Spire to 5 Hatch Hydra build came out back in late 2008. The 4 Gate 2 Archon build then evolved early 2009 to counter. Then Zergs scaled back the greed and around March-April 2009 began to crush Protosses as they had no idea how to counter the tech switches and the sheer macro of Zerg players. As you've probably learned in statistics, correlation does not imply causation. Stop using one map and one trend to try and argue for the whole. It doesn't work here. Are you saying that statistics becoming more skewed towards zerg doesn't necessarily mean that the matchup is imbalanced? Of course it means the matchup is imbalanced. That's what the statistics mean! And in the ZvP imba thread, I don't just use Destination as an example. I use every single current map. | ||
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On September 26 2009 22:04 Shikyo wrote: However, if the best PvZ players can PvZ evenly with the best ZvP players, the MU isn't imbalanced. Yeah, the MU isn't imbalanced... for the top players. It also isn't imbalanced for D players on iccup. But it is imbalanced for pros as a whole right now. | ||
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