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On September 04 2009 11:52 Tien wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2009 05:58 danieldrsa wrote:
JD>Bisu in titles. I like him for his acomplishments.
In current skill level? never. Its hype for the golden mouse. Lol? Skill level not the same? Name me the zerg that has the highest level of skill in ZvT and ZvZ in the world. Ooops. I'm a super Jaedong fan, but I also have mad mad respect for Bisu. What Bisu did for Protoss equals what Savior did for Zerg. I would say what seperates Jaedong from Bisu is that Jaedong's hunger is a tad bit more than Bisu's.
How is his hunger more? Definitly no evidence of this, just bs.
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Rawr rawr rawr, on second thought, I'll leave this alone.
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On September 04 2009 13:26 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Rawr rawr rawr, on second thought, I'll leave this alone.
It is a neverending spiral of ridiculous arguments!
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As a protoss player, I have a slight bias towards protoss players, but I have to say jaedong is better just because he is much more stable. He has the best zvp and zvz right now while yarnc has the best zvt. Bisu is awesome and he made pvz actually playable, but the thing with bisu is that his pvt never gave me the confidence that stork or jangbi gave when they weren't in their epic slump. Bisu would win protoss often, but then he would lose it. Bisu is better than stork because bisu's pvt is better than stork's pvz, but the title of best protoss is often split between those two since in pvp wise they are equally skilled. Bisu is more well rounded than stork, but stork's best mu is better than bisu's. But the main problem with bisu is his pvt, while jaedong is godly in all 3 match up. So i'll have say jaedong is the slightly better player. Oh, one more thing, the reason why i think jaedong's zvz mu is so godly is because the other zerg's zvz just suck. Other zergs' zvz are getting better and jaedong's zvz win percentage is getting lower. As for bisu, hes about 50% with stork which lowers his pvp mu by quite a bit.
After reading this, I don't even know why i added stork, but it has some relevance i guess. Oh, i think bisu>stork, but not by much just to clarify in case people think i'm saying stork=bisu.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 04 2009 12:34 TwoToneTerran wrote:
edit -- Honestly if you don't think SCR and Neo Medusa aren't TvZ maps then there's not much hope for this argument. If you want a difficult map pool for a finals win from Jaedong then his MSL is a really good pick with Loki II and Katrina, and there's no way you can refute that those are great PvZ maps.
You're insane if you think PvP isn't Bisu's best match-up. Referencing a game from 2 years ago when things were MUCH different is insane. Every single one of Bisu's recent titles comes from PvP wins, and his PvP winrate is higher because he schools protoss more regularly. Bisu drops MSLs and OSLs almost entirely to zergs lately (Zero, By.Hero, his all Zerg MSL groups which bite him in the ass), but when he gets shoved in an all PvP group, he prevails?
PvZ is his famous match up, and his PvZ is by far the best, but that doesn't make it his best match up. Jaedong's ZvT is the best (yes, better than Yarnc, Effort, or Calm), but ZvZ is still his best match up.
You know who else has a revolutionary match up that completely stomped the top players of the time? Flash, in TvP, who singlehandedly obsoleted Carriers, won his first two titles in TvP, and was the only person to put a halt onf Taek-Bang's dominance. But you would be absolutely foolish to think that TvT isn't Flash's best match up. It doesn't matter how badly he stomped Stork and Bisu and Jangbi in their primes, TvT is where he loses the least and is always the favorite. This applies to Bisu, as well.
Agree wholeheartedly with this post.
Honestly, if you don't think PvP is currently Bisu's best matchup, I have no idea where you've been. Looking at the statistics and his convincing wins against even his closest competitors, it might even be arguable that Bisu's PvP is more solid right now than Jaedong's ZvZ (maybe not stronger on a good day, but much more consistent, given Jaedong's string of random losses recently).
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Dude, he specifically emphasized that PvP was Bisu's best MU in EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS POSTS. He's repeated it 10 times already!
Wtf, srsly.
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Well he did say he agreed with me but the tacked on thing at the end there was kind of redundant.
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Oh yes, Bisu is first!
Stork is second... lol, that was expected. Stork does well in everything that is WCG related.
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On September 04 2009 07:14 TwoToneTerran wrote:
No, you're wrong, on two accounts. WCG was skewed by the fact that Jaedong was busy with FA. Hell, he was busy with FA during his OSL victory but that's actually a seriously important tournament to him.
And secondly, while PvZ is what Bisu made his name on, PvP is the match up he shows the most consistency in, and beats the strongest opponents in more often than not. It's also the match up he's played for 4 of his 5 titles. Bisu is strongest in his mirror because he's the strongest protoss in general -- it's the same with Flash in TvT and Jaedong in ZvZ. Bisu just caught a good break when he got to play lots of PvP finals.
Wait, didn't you just complain about someone putting their words into your posts? I didn't say Bisu is ALL about PvP -- that'd be like saying Jaedong is all about ZvZ. All four S Class players are good in EVERY match up, they just all specialize/perform the best in their mirrors. Stop acting like I said things I didn't. The analogy was that Bisu A) Hasn't won a title with disadvantageous maps and B) He's won every title except for his first MSL in his statistically strongest (and strongest in execution. You can't tell me Bisu's PvZ doesn't look painful fallible all the time with dropping out of every group stage to Zergs) matchup. You absolutely can't refute this.
Jaedong, on the other hand, has won 1 title in ZvZ, his strong match up, and has won every other title in his weakest match up (ZvP) on disadvantageous maps (Katrina and such) or in his middle matchup (zvt) and DEFINITELY on disadvantageous matchups (against Fantasy on Neo Medusa, Sin Chupung Ryeong)
It is a bit unfair to mention middle matchup (zvt) as argument for JD, Bisu did also have to overcome Flash in middle matchup (pvt) in GSL and WCG. As you mentioned Flash is a TvP monster. I don't know all the games from JD, Bisu SLs. But it is normal that the champion have to win against some strong oppentents till final, you could not always get lucky till final.
Bisu never make in OSL finals, because middle matchups, get twice 3-0 in semi Finals. But if he did win one OSL Final against P, does not really take any credit away from him. It may not looks like that dramatically, but S-Class players does not have to meet in Finals.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 04 2009 16:05 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Dude, he specifically emphasized that PvP was Bisu's best MU in EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS POSTS. He's repeated it 10 times already!
Wtf, srsly.
I was mentioning it for the sake of the person who he was replying to, guess I should have indicated that somehow.
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Ah, okay, then. Got confused.
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If stork actually practices, I think stork is better than bisu. =D
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On September 05 2009 07:03 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Ah, okay, then. Got confused.
Nice~ Congrats on the Guardian. 
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I've always wanted one. I can finally attack ground again. I always thought I didn't get one yet b/c my registration date is too recent, but it appears that I didn't attain 6k posts yet. No wait, Grobyc has a wraith, it is my registration date TT
Jeez I'm such a spammer.
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EPT
