On August 30 2009 08:30 Jyvblamo wrote: Haha, this gets a thread before the MSL finals. Yeah, definitely watching this over the MSL, except to post Kwanrolled pictures.
Somebody is bound to put a thread for it. Some stx or cj fanboy should be hyped for msl looking at how a stx and cj player got into the finals for the first time in a while right? right?
On August 30 2009 09:14 ArvickHero wrote: I actually mistook those guys for their progamers counterparts for a second, especially Jaedong's, that really does look like him
True since I just glanced over it but after taking a closer look at it, it was pretty obvious.
On August 30 2009 08:04 Avidkeystamper wrote: Aww...I thought Stork got a new girlfriend or something. + Show Spoiler +
Watch as that picture turns out to be Stork, and it's the same girlfriend.
why the hell are they going to have wcg and msl running at the same time? at least they should have msl first since theres no way that would last much more than an hour
On August 30 2009 10:01 iamho wrote: why the hell are they going to have wcg and msl running at the same time? at least they should have msl first since theres no way that would last much more than an hour
On August 30 2009 11:02 loafmaster wrote: Anyone know which match will be played first? I would assume 3rd/4th place match but the finals match was listed first so I wasn't sure.
Please do read the top of the OP. It does say when each match is being played at specifically what time.
On August 30 2009 13:38 nayumi wrote: PvP ... Stork won't stand a chance imo D: ...
You never know with Stork. He's owned Bisu pretty badly on a few occasions, most notably his 3-0 pounding in the Ever 2007 OSL, as well as their most recent Proleague match-up.
On August 30 2009 14:06 Avidkeystamper wrote: Why was there an ad for LoZ: Twilight Princess?
You haven't seen that ad? It's played often enough. I'd also guess that Twilight Princess might be advertising now because it was localized late?
Also I'd have to agree that 3rd place deciding match is the most exciting because there is actually something on the line where the 1st place match is just for fun/pride.
I'm gonna watch Storky and then play on iccup or watch anime (lol Stork is my role model could you tell? - also lol I don't have a comma on this keyboard since i use it for starcraft and i dont even know why people remove the comma key) I'm not interested at all in MSL finals at all and JD vs Lux is too late.
On August 30 2009 14:16 cUrsOr wrote: I'm late but.... very happy to see that its a PvP... and that the protoss are looking strong again after their weak showings in MSL/OSL/GOM.
On August 30 2009 14:16 cUrsOr wrote: I'm late but.... very happy to see that its a PvP... and that the protoss are looking strong again after their weak showings in MSL/OSL/GOM.
So IDC who wins, I'm just glad to see the MU.
<3
If protoss=Stork.
Well protoss was = stork/bisu then jangbi best came out of nowhere and died
On August 30 2009 14:39 Warrior Madness wrote: This is my first WCG. What happens to 1st 2nd and 3rd place people? Are 2 and 3 just backups or something?
Top 3 places qualify. So the Bisu vs Stork match is meaningless except for bragging rights.
On August 30 2009 14:36 zgl wrote: Looked like stork had a tiny advantage (maybe a couple more probes) until he threw away his reaver + shuttle.
wait really? shoot. he definitely had fewer mins... and had to bring all those probes back from... somewhere else in the middle of the map lol
I tuned in late, and saw tons of probes going back to Storks base, and I was like... "wtf?" Was Stork expoing somewhere, or did he send all his Probes to attack or something?
Well, doesn't really matter for Bisu cause he's still firmly ahead. One base ahead with gas too. But hey look its dual shuttle play from Stork, looking to push.
Bisu is clearly playing PvP like he's the top dog. He goes for a quick expo build nearly all his games, but only because he can hold off most reaver first builds anyways.
On August 30 2009 14:54 Jayme wrote: and now Stork goes ahead and suicides his army into Bisu's nat.
Exactly why are players throwing themselves into 3-4 reaver defense???
stork HAD to, that was his only timing
Bisu attacked his nat to reduce reaver count, trade armys, he knew he had 1 base more and basically game in the bag, so why not pick up smaller battle during stork's timing with less luck involved.
i think stork completely overestimated the damage that he did with his first push.
and bisu's macro is just flawless. even with a 1gate->expand opening vs stork's 2gate, he managed to keep his supply count constantly higher than or same as stork's for the entire early game. how does that work??? o_O
On August 30 2009 14:54 Jayme wrote: and now Stork goes ahead and suicides his army into Bisu's nat.
Exactly why are players throwing themselves into 3-4 reaver defense???
stork HAD to, that was his only timing
Then he has to be smarter about it.
Or not cluster all 4 of his damn reavers in nice range of a scarab shot.
I realize the guy was behind a base and all but that attack was stupidly executed.
Well Stork was pretty limited in his reaver placement. He couldnt stick them to the opposite side because Bisu had 2 goons on high ground. And behind his own goons wont work either.
On August 30 2009 14:57 Zozma wrote: The attack was fine... if he didn't screw up with his reavers, Bisu would have died then and there.
I don't think that he would have died even if Stork didn't screw up with the reavers because Bisu still had like 15 units on his ramp that could reinforce the fight.
On August 30 2009 14:58 hideo wrote: i think stork completely overestimated the damage that he did with his first push.
and bisu's macro is just flawless. even with a 1gate->expand opening vs stork's 2gate, he managed to keep his supply count constantly higher than or same as stork's for the entire early game. how does that work??? o_O
becouse having 1 base more allows you to produce more units?
stork was behind the whole game after the first initial attack. bisu went expo first while stork went for reavers first so it was up to stork to attack bisu and either win the game or hurt his economy badly. stork wasn't able to do that so bisu was up in economy for the rest of the game and won.
On August 30 2009 14:58 Baddieko wrote: I dont get it, Stork should be the one playing long game and expanding. Always seemed to overaggressive against bisu.
You know Bisu can play long games and expand too right? Stork's macro is not superior to Bisu's to the point where he can just play macro games and win. Sure he might be able to come out on top, but the two are basically top notch PvPers with incredible macro.
On August 30 2009 14:58 hideo wrote: i think stork completely overestimated the damage that he did with his first push.
and bisu's macro is just flawless. even with a 1gate->expand opening vs stork's 2gate, he managed to keep his supply count constantly higher than or same as stork's for the entire early game. how does that work??? o_O
becouse having 1 base more allows you to produce more units?
Stork didn't even know Bisu had expanded. That is crucial in game 2. He thought after the fight they are still even. Missed the timing to attack before Bisu had reavers.
On August 30 2009 14:58 hideo wrote: i think stork completely overestimated the damage that he did with his first push.
and bisu's macro is just flawless. even with a 1gate->expand opening vs stork's 2gate, he managed to keep his supply count constantly higher than or same as stork's for the entire early game. how does that work??? o_O
becouse having 1 base more allows you to produce more units?
with normal fe builds, there's always a timing where you have significantly less units than your 1base opponent isn't there? For the entire early game his supply was equal or higher than stork's and then the base advantage kicked in and he took off.
Lol at all those who thought Bisu was behind at ANY point of the game. Even when he threw away those probes, and his army, he was always ahead in supply count. Hell, even in the very beginning of the game Bisu was slightly ahead, being ahead in supply count for a second even when it was just probes/zealots production.
On August 30 2009 14:58 hideo wrote: i think stork completely overestimated the damage that he did with his first push.
and bisu's macro is just flawless. even with a 1gate->expand opening vs stork's 2gate, he managed to keep his supply count constantly higher than or same as stork's for the entire early game. how does that work??? o_O
becouse having 1 base more allows you to produce more units?
with normal fe builds, there's always a timing where you have significantly less units than your 1base opponent isn't there? For the entire early game his supply was equal or higher than stork's and then the base advantage kicked in and he took off.
On August 30 2009 14:58 Baddieko wrote: I dont get it, Stork should be the one playing long game and expanding. Always seemed to overaggressive against bisu.
You know Bisu can play long games and expand too right? Stork's macro is not superior to Bisu's to the point where he can just play macro games and win. Sure he might be able to come out on top, but the two are basically top notch PvPers with incredible macro.
Yeah Bisu and Stork are both S class players. One is dominant over zergs and protoss and the other is dominant over terran and protoss.
On August 30 2009 14:58 hideo wrote: i think stork completely overestimated the damage that he did with his first push.
and bisu's macro is just flawless. even with a 1gate->expand opening vs stork's 2gate, he managed to keep his supply count constantly higher than or same as stork's for the entire early game. how does that work??? o_O
becouse having 1 base more allows you to produce more units?
with normal fe builds, there's always a timing where you have significantly less units than your 1base opponent isn't there? For the entire early game his supply was equal or higher than stork's and then the base advantage kicked in and he took off.
That same supply achieved was from probes, it was normal in every pvp. 2 Nexus pumping probes vs 1 base pumping units.
On August 30 2009 14:54 Jayme wrote: and now Stork goes ahead and suicides his army into Bisu's nat.
Exactly why are players throwing themselves into 3-4 reaver defense???
stork HAD to, that was his only timing
Then he has to be smarter about it.
Or not cluster all 4 of his damn reavers in nice range of a scarab shot.
I realize the guy was behind a base and all but that attack was stupidly executed.
Stork didn't have an observer. Duh.
Bisu knew exactly where all of Stork's units were. All Bisu had to do was fire scarabs with the observer's vision. On the other hand, Stork didn't know where the scarabs were coming from. Stork did fine despite not having an observer.
On August 30 2009 14:57 Zozma wrote: The attack was fine... if he didn't screw up with his reavers, Bisu would have died then and there.
I don't think that he would have died even if Stork didn't screw up with the reavers because Bisu still had like 15 units on his ramp that could reinforce the fight.
Agreed. Bisu's economy was still far ahead. Even if Stork won the battle at Bisu's natural, Stork still wouldn't have sealed the match.
On August 30 2009 15:03 iamho wrote: the reason why stock lost was because he was a base behind bisu, not because of bisu's genius or micro as people keep posting
If Stork was a genius like Bisu, he wouldn't have been a base behind Bisu.
/troll face
But seriously, Bisu was amazing in countering Stork's shuttle drop with that goon drop just at the right instant.
the reason why stock lost was because he was a base behind bisu, not because of bisu's genius or micro as people keep posting
how did bisu defend then? luck? yes he won because he had an extra base but the fact that he was able to defend in order to keep it is what he deserves credit for...duh
On August 30 2009 15:05 ArvickHero wrote: I also liked Bisu just flying around a shuttle in that first attack, pretending that there was a reaver in it. I'm sure it somehow affected the battle
stork knew there was nothing in it, bisu had dropped off 2 goons behind his mineral only and there was an observer there
On August 30 2009 14:54 Jayme wrote: and now Stork goes ahead and suicides his army into Bisu's nat.
Exactly why are players throwing themselves into 3-4 reaver defense???
stork HAD to, that was his only timing
Then he has to be smarter about it.
Or not cluster all 4 of his damn reavers in nice range of a scarab shot.
I realize the guy was behind a base and all but that attack was stupidly executed.
Stork didn't have an observer. Duh.
Bisu knew exactly where all of Stork's units were. All Bisu had to do was fire scarabs with the observer's vision. On the other hand, Stork didn't know where the scarabs were coming from. Stork did fine despite not having an observer.
Um I distinctly remember a beige observer hanging over the chokepoint of Bisu's nat but I could be wrong...
the reason why stock lost was because he was a base behind bisu, not because of bisu's genius or micro as people keep posting
how did bisu defend then? luck? yes he won because he had an extra base but the fact that he was able to defend in order to keep it is what he deserves credit for...duh
Because Bisu's gateways are inside his own main and Stork's gateways are not? It takes time for Stork's units to stream down into Bisu's base. By that time, all Bisu had to do was pull out probes and use them to attack Stork's dragoons. After downsizing Stork's dragoon count, Bisu only had to wait for his units to warp in and clean the place up. There is hardly any genius about it.
On August 30 2009 15:05 ArvickHero wrote: I also liked Bisu just flying around a shuttle in that first attack, pretending that there was a reaver in it. I'm sure it somehow affected the battle
stork knew there was nothing in it, bisu had dropped off 2 goons behind his mineral only and there was an observer there
those 2 goons were dropped off a bit later after that first fight
On August 30 2009 14:58 Baddieko wrote: I dont get it, Stork should be the one playing long game and expanding. Always seemed to overaggressive against bisu.
You know Bisu can play long games and expand too right? Stork's macro is not superior to Bisu's to the point where he can just play macro games and win. Sure he might be able to come out on top, but the two are basically top notch PvPers with incredible macro.
Yeah Bisu and Stork are both S class players. One is dominant over zergs and protoss and the other is dominant over terran and protoss.
On August 30 2009 15:03 iamho wrote: the reason why stock lost was because he was a base behind bisu, not because of bisu's genius or micro as people keep posting
Man, i wish the things were so simple. Just be 1 base ahead and you'll get golden mouse in a few months. You should just say that you are yet another Bisu hater ^^
On August 30 2009 15:16 bitchaRd[raGe] wrote: Btw what's the joke about Stork and WoW thing? I guess, i missed something?
Apparently, Khan gave Stork WoW as a present after Stork won Incruit OSL. Stork has been playing lots of WoW and watching lots of One Piece according to his interviews.
On August 30 2009 15:16 bitchaRd[raGe] wrote: Btw what's the joke about Stork and WoW thing? I guess, i missed something?
Apparently, Khan gave Stork WoW as a present after Stork won Incruit OSL. Stork has been playing lots of WoW and watching lots of One Piece according to his interviews.
On August 30 2009 15:16 bitchaRd[raGe] wrote: Btw what's the joke about Stork and WoW thing? I guess, i missed something?
Apparently, Khan gave Stork WoW as a present after Stork won Incruit OSL. Stork has been playing lots of WoW and watching lots of One Piece according to his interviews.
God Jaedong is so good. He did EVERYTHING right that game. From forcing Lux to make more lings than he planned while counting larva, to containing and expanding to force Lux to attack, the fast scourge to scare him off, not to mention the Aerial micro.
On August 30 2009 17:15 ReketSomething wrote: I cant believe Calm took the MSL from Jaedong. T_T
I prefer Jaedong, but short of having some unsurvivable need to call him Bonjwa, the MSL title will mean a lot more to Calm. Jaedong's a machine, and short of FA, I have no doubt he'll win another title before his day is over. Calm, while good, might never get that chance.
It's like when Flash loses. We all know, eventually, Flash will take another MSL/OSL (Maybe this season since KT will be much more solid), so it's not gonna kill us to watch others take the title.
Game 1 Kwanro went for a 5 pool and had two offensive sunkens against Calm's 1 sunken and somehow Calm defends. They both tech up to mutas and Calm wins a couple muta battles and ends up taking the game. Nice reverse BO loss.
Game 2 Kwanro wins. I kinda forget how but I remember there being some intense muta battles in that one.
On August 30 2009 17:15 ReketSomething wrote: I cant believe Calm took the MSL from Jaedong. T_T
That was right after Jaedong went 0-3 in the PL Finals.
Jaedong's emotional state wouldve been bad.
Think he just put all his practice time into beating Fantasy as he wanted that win no matter what and did like nothing for msl. It was pretty soon after the msl match and his mental state was pretty good going 4 pool :D
On August 30 2009 17:17 aznhockeyboy16 wrote: game 2 msl + Show Spoiler +
calm wins ling battle 1, calm wins ling battle 2, calm wins muta battle 1, kwanro has a ninja hatchery and outmasses calm, kwanro wins with awful micro from calm in the final battle.
Also, that is the first time Lux has beaten Jaedong in nearly 2 years. Their record leading up to that was Lux 2 - 8 Jaedong, so now it's 3-9, slightly better for Mr.Practice.
lux ggs, jaedong preventing lux from getting his 2nd hatch at his expansion won the game for him even though he got outmicroed by lux in the first battle
Have progamers figured out a way to make it harder to Chinese-Triangle pursuing Scourge? Or are they just manually controlling the Scourge better (or is this the same thing)?
Why does it seem like all of a sudden Scourge are hitting Mutas with regularity again, when a couple of months ago it looked like they never did?
On August 30 2009 17:41 Guilty wrote: the gas advantage had kicked in for JD and lux couldnt keep up with muta production. good try tho, produced a great game
Yeah, I'm surprised lux didn't try to pick off any of the gas drones
Have progamers figured out a way to make it harder to Chinese-Triangle pursuing Scourge? Or are they just manually controlling the Scourge better (or is this the same thing)?
Why does it seem like all of a sudden Scourge are hitting Mutas with regularity again, when a couple of months ago it looked like they never did?
the mutas still lose some speed when they attack so unless they kill the scourge all in one shot, ie with at least 5 mutas, they will still get hit.
On August 30 2009 17:42 darktreb wrote: Have progamers figured out a way to make it harder to Chinese-Triangle pursuing Scourge? Or are they just manually controlling the Scourge better (or is this the same thing)?
Why does it seem like all of a sudden Scourge are hitting Mutas with regularity again, when a couple of months ago it looked like they never did?
In that game it was mostly scourge chasing 2 or 3 mutas. The patrol trick usually won't work with only 2 or 3. The chinese triangle works once but then the remaining scourge are too close to you to try it again. The only thing you can do with 2 mutas is right click just next to the scourge, right click the scourge itself, then right click away, all within maybe 1/5 of a second. I've only seen Jaedong do that.
On August 30 2009 17:45 motbob wrote: Well, that was a really enjoyable night of Starcraft. Bisu vs Stork, Calm vs Kwanro, and Jaedong vs Luxury were all really great matches.
Yea I'm a pretty happy camper after all that. Great stuff tonight, and now bed at last!
This is Stork's 3rd time that he got a WCG Korea Silver Medal. Good God! But congratulations to Stork anyways! 1st Korean progamer to enter the WCG 3 times in a row!!! Nice~
On August 30 2009 17:58 okum wrote: I just realized that the TL calendar is empty now. I feel all empty inside; my life has no meaning -_-
I was just about to whine about the same thing, hopefully we'll get some entertaining bnet attack Vods or something which tends to happen during this SC dead time.
On August 30 2009 17:58 okum wrote: I just realized that the TL calendar is empty now. I feel all empty inside; my life has no meaning -_-
I was just about to whine about the same thing, hopefully we'll get some entertaining bnet attack Vods or something which tends to happen during this SC dead time.
haha gl foreigners, korea send out some chumps.. any of the games recommended? i'm actually surprised that JD didn't lose on purpose, was somehow expecting that :o
On August 30 2009 22:42 On_Slaught wrote: I wonder what hte foreigners think of having to go against this line-up at WCG. Be fun to play them. Be meh to get spanked in front of so many people.
Does it even matter? I doubt even Yarnc, Upmagic, and Free would have trouble stomping over the foreigners.
In recent years, I think Savior is the only player to to lose to a non-Korean.
There is always the "which Korean pro will lose to foreigners this year" thread on TL, but with those three playing the only win they'll get will be a thrown game in group stages to rig the single elimination brackets.
WCG Foreigners should just Alt QQ when they have to play Bisu/JD/Stork. Ridiculous lineup from Korea. Don't see anyone taking a game off them unless someone tanks lol.
On August 31 2009 03:04 Roffles wrote: WCG Foreigners should just Alt QQ when they have to play Bisu/JD/Stork. Ridiculous lineup from Korea. Don't see anyone taking a game off them unless someone tanks lol.
As stated before, it's entirely possible that the Koreans will throw one or more games so they can face each other as late as possible.
These three better show us some badass strats or micro, i want to see the foreigners utterly HUMILIATED, like by Dark Archons or mass broodlings, or something awesome of the sort.
On August 31 2009 03:04 Roffles wrote: WCG Foreigners should just Alt QQ when they have to play Bisu/JD/Stork. Ridiculous lineup from Korea. Don't see anyone taking a game off them unless someone tanks lol.
As stated before, it's entirely possible that the Koreans will throw one or more games so they can face each other as late as possible.
Which is why I mentioned unless they tank a game or two. But yes I believe this has happened in the past and might happen again.
On August 31 2009 09:38 ArvickHero wrote: These three better show us some badass strats or micro, i want to see the foreigners utterly HUMILIATED, like by Dark Archons or mass broodlings, or something awesome of the sort.
Remember Bisu's mass scouts vs Hwasin?
I want to see Jaedong own a foreigner with 4 pool like he did against Fantasy.
Or maybe Bisu/Stork would mind control an SCV/drone and use the other race's tech to own them.
On August 31 2009 09:38 ArvickHero wrote: These three better show us some badass strats or micro, i want to see the foreigners utterly HUMILIATED, like by Dark Archons or mass broodlings, or something awesome of the sort.
Remember Bisu's mass scouts vs Hwasin?
I want to see Jaedong own a foreigner with 4 pool like he did against Fantasy.
Or maybe Bisu/Stork would mind control an SCV/drone and use the other race's tech to own them.
hmm... what happens when you recall burrowed lurkers? :p
On August 31 2009 09:38 ArvickHero wrote: These three better show us some badass strats or micro, i want to see the foreigners utterly HUMILIATED, like by Dark Archons or mass broodlings, or something awesome of the sort.
Remember Bisu's mass scouts vs Hwasin?
I want to see Jaedong own a foreigner with 4 pool like he did against Fantasy.
Or maybe Bisu/Stork would mind control an SCV/drone and use the other race's tech to own them.
hmm... what happens when you recall burrowed lurkers? :p
if they stay burrowed, Royal Stove v Z imba.
I know that siege tanks stay sieged when you recall them so maybe hehe
If you can't get to at least A or A+ on iccup, don't even bother "dreaming" of beating any one of jaedong, stork and bisu. Reality is reality, ret, idra, mondi whoever you name it, won't have any chance, can't even beat f91 and you want beat the "weakest" of them, stork......
On August 31 2009 09:38 ArvickHero wrote: These three better show us some badass strats or micro, i want to see the foreigners utterly HUMILIATED, like by Dark Archons or mass broodlings, or something awesome of the sort.
Remember Bisu's mass scouts vs Hwasin?
I want to see Jaedong own a foreigner with 4 pool like he did against Fantasy.
Or maybe Bisu/Stork would mind control an SCV/drone and use the other race's tech to own them.
hmm... what happens when you recall burrowed lurkers? :p
On September 02 2009 02:25 danieldrsa wrote: And here comes Bisu to show again who owns
He won a proleague, is playing more consistently than JD, and deserves much more
My favorite player is Kim Taek Yong, but I'm sorry to say that you must be smoking some good shit. Because Jaedong right now is playing like a scary fucking beast and is undoubtedly the best player right now. Went deep in every league, and carried his failure of a team to the finals. What more do you want?
Sorry to say, but until Bisu picks up some consistency and actually makes some fucking finals, Jaedong is still the best. I will give him a pass because every other protoss failed hard this season basically.
On September 02 2009 02:25 danieldrsa wrote: And here comes Bisu to show again who owns
He won a proleague, is playing more consistently than JD, and deserves much more
My favorite player is Kim Taek Yong, but I'm sorry to say that you must be smoking some good shit. Because Jaedong right now is playing like a scary fucking beast and is undoubtedly the best player right now. Went deep in every league, and carried his failure of a team to the finals. What more do you want?
Sorry to say, but until Bisu picks up some consistency and actually makes some fucking finals, Jaedong is still the best. I will give him a pass because every other protoss failed hard this season basically.
I think its b/c noone has practiced for vs. Protoss.. i mean its wcg >.> if flash and jaedong had played like any tvp / zvp they would be in top 2
On August 31 2009 09:38 ArvickHero wrote: These three better show us some badass strats or micro, i want to see the foreigners utterly HUMILIATED, like by Dark Archons or mass broodlings, or something awesome of the sort.
Remember Bisu's mass scouts vs Hwasin?
I want to see Jaedong own a foreigner with 4 pool like he did against Fantasy.
Or maybe Bisu/Stork would mind control an SCV/drone and use the other race's tech to own them.
hmm... what happens when you recall burrowed lurkers? :p
On September 02 2009 07:13 andrewlt wrote: Haha, that's a nice theory. Protoss got eliminated so early in starleagues that Jaedong, Fantasy and co are rusty vP.
Sorry, but that's just a stupid theory. Why the HELL would they jeopardize their chances of winning a starleague just so others could be rusty vs protoss? -_-
On September 02 2009 07:13 andrewlt wrote: Haha, that's a nice theory. Protoss got eliminated so early in starleagues that Jaedong, Fantasy and co are rusty vP.
Sorry, but that's just a stupid theory. Why the HELL would they jeopardize their chances of winning a starleague just so others could be rusty vs protoss? -_-
noone said it was intentional, just that it happened
On September 02 2009 02:25 danieldrsa wrote: And here comes Bisu to show again who owns
He won a proleague, is playing more consistently than JD, and deserves much more
My favorite player is Kim Taek Yong, but I'm sorry to say that you must be smoking some good shit. Because Jaedong right now is playing like a scary fucking beast and is undoubtedly the best player right now. Went deep in every league, and carried his failure of a team to the finals. What more do you want?
Sorry to say, but until Bisu picks up some consistency and actually makes some fucking finals, Jaedong is still the best. I will give him a pass because every other protoss failed hard this season basically.
just because he won the OSL he is not the best player Far from it JD is my 3rd favorite player, only after bisu and flash, so i like him a lot He definitely owns when he plays his best also
But
Everytime he loses theres a "why", be it lack of rest (like proleague finals), lack of map balance (last time he lost to bisu), lack of league importance (like in WCG now) Since the end of proleague he is playing kind of erratic (must be because of FA...)
People are saying he is far ahead of bisu, wich i agree in title importance, but not in current skill lvl The two are the main reason i still love this game so much
On September 02 2009 02:25 danieldrsa wrote: And here comes Bisu to show again who owns
He won a proleague, is playing more consistently than JD, and deserves much more
My favorite player is Kim Taek Yong, but I'm sorry to say that you must be smoking some good shit. Because Jaedong right now is playing like a scary fucking beast and is undoubtedly the best player right now. Went deep in every league, and carried his failure of a team to the finals. What more do you want?
Sorry to say, but until Bisu picks up some consistency and actually makes some fucking finals, Jaedong is still the best. I will give him a pass because every other protoss failed hard this season basically.
just because he won the OSL he is not the best player Far from it JD is my 3rd favorite player, only after bisu and flash, so i like him a lot He definitely owns when he plays his best also
But
Everytime he loses theres a "why", be it lack of rest (like proleague finals), lack of map balance (last time he lost to bisu), lack of league importance (like in WCG now) Since the end of proleague he is playing kind of erratic (must be because of FA...)
People are saying he is far ahead of bisu, wich i agree in title importance, but not in current skill lvl The two are the main reason i still love this game so much
Dude, every time Bisu loses, he blames map imbalance. Okay? Jaedong is by far the BEST player currently. Unlike Bisu, he's making the semis on a CONSISTENT basis. Plus he's carrying his entire team on his back. If Bisu and JD were to have swapped teams, I guarantee you JD would have the title of "PL Champion/OSL Winner".
Bisu's good. But he cannot be compared to Jaedong right now. There's a reason why he is completely DOMINATING Kespa's ranking, and why everyone fears playing him.
On September 02 2009 02:25 danieldrsa wrote: And here comes Bisu to show again who owns
He won a proleague, is playing more consistently than JD, and deserves much more
My favorite player is Kim Taek Yong, but I'm sorry to say that you must be smoking some good shit. Because Jaedong right now is playing like a scary fucking beast and is undoubtedly the best player right now. Went deep in every league, and carried his failure of a team to the finals. What more do you want?
Sorry to say, but until Bisu picks up some consistency and actually makes some fucking finals, Jaedong is still the best. I will give him a pass because every other protoss failed hard this season basically.
just because he won the OSL he is not the best player Far from it JD is my 3rd favorite player, only after bisu and flash, so i like him a lot He definitely owns when he plays his best also
But
Everytime he loses theres a "why", be it lack of rest (like proleague finals), lack of map balance (last time he lost to bisu), lack of league importance (like in WCG now) Since the end of proleague he is playing kind of erratic (must be because of FA...)
People are saying he is far ahead of bisu, wich i agree in title importance, but not in current skill lvl The two are the main reason i still love this game so much
Dude, every time Bisu loses, he blames map imbalance. Okay? Jaedong is by far the BEST player currently. Unlike Bisu, he's making the semis on a CONSISTENT basis. Plus he's carrying his entire team on his back. If Bisu and JD were to have swapped teams, I guarantee you JD would have the title of "PL Champion/OSL Winner".
Bisu's good. But he cannot be compared to Jaedong right now. There's a reason why he is completely DOMINATING Kespa's ranking, and why everyone fears playing him.
Look at the run of zergs recently. Look at the run of protosses recently.
Bisu is a far greater and better player than jaedong.
On September 02 2009 02:25 danieldrsa wrote: And here comes Bisu to show again who owns
He won a proleague, is playing more consistently than JD, and deserves much more
My favorite player is Kim Taek Yong, but I'm sorry to say that you must be smoking some good shit. Because Jaedong right now is playing like a scary fucking beast and is undoubtedly the best player right now. Went deep in every league, and carried his failure of a team to the finals. What more do you want?
Sorry to say, but until Bisu picks up some consistency and actually makes some fucking finals, Jaedong is still the best. I will give him a pass because every other protoss failed hard this season basically.
just because he won the OSL he is not the best player Far from it JD is my 3rd favorite player, only after bisu and flash, so i like him a lot He definitely owns when he plays his best also
But
Everytime he loses theres a "why", be it lack of rest (like proleague finals), lack of map balance (last time he lost to bisu), lack of league importance (like in WCG now) Since the end of proleague he is playing kind of erratic (must be because of FA...)
People are saying he is far ahead of bisu, wich i agree in title importance, but not in current skill lvl The two are the main reason i still love this game so much
Dude, every time Bisu loses, he blames map imbalance. Okay? Jaedong is by far the BEST player currently. Unlike Bisu, he's making the semis on a CONSISTENT basis. Plus he's carrying his entire team on his back. If Bisu and JD were to have swapped teams, I guarantee you JD would have the title of "PL Champion/OSL Winner".
Bisu's good. But he cannot be compared to Jaedong right now. There's a reason why he is completely DOMINATING Kespa's ranking, and why everyone fears playing him.
Look at the run of zergs recently. Look at the run of protosses recently.
Bisu is a far greater and better player than jaedong.
On September 02 2009 02:25 danieldrsa wrote: And here comes Bisu to show again who owns
He won a proleague, is playing more consistently than JD, and deserves much more
My favorite player is Kim Taek Yong, but I'm sorry to say that you must be smoking some good shit. Because Jaedong right now is playing like a scary fucking beast and is undoubtedly the best player right now. Went deep in every league, and carried his failure of a team to the finals. What more do you want?
Sorry to say, but until Bisu picks up some consistency and actually makes some fucking finals, Jaedong is still the best. I will give him a pass because every other protoss failed hard this season basically.
just because he won the OSL he is not the best player Far from it JD is my 3rd favorite player, only after bisu and flash, so i like him a lot He definitely owns when he plays his best also
But
Everytime he loses theres a "why", be it lack of rest (like proleague finals), lack of map balance (last time he lost to bisu), lack of league importance (like in WCG now) Since the end of proleague he is playing kind of erratic (must be because of FA...)
People are saying he is far ahead of bisu, wich i agree in title importance, but not in current skill lvl The two are the main reason i still love this game so much
Dude, every time Bisu loses, he blames map imbalance. Okay? Jaedong is by far the BEST player currently. Unlike Bisu, he's making the semis on a CONSISTENT basis. Plus he's carrying his entire team on his back. If Bisu and JD were to have swapped teams, I guarantee you JD would have the title of "PL Champion/OSL Winner".
Bisu's good. But he cannot be compared to Jaedong right now. There's a reason why he is completely DOMINATING Kespa's ranking, and why everyone fears playing him.
Look at the run of zergs recently. Look at the run of protosses recently.
Bisu is a far greater and better player than jaedong.
Jaedong has gotten a gold medal on his page every season since he won the Ever OSL. Even during the Protoss Golden Age. Yep, that's consistency.
On September 01 2009 12:22 Sigh wrote: Congratulations to all 3! I wish it was Flash, Bisu and Jaedong though... oh well Foreigners are gonna get curb stompedddddd at WCG
yeah, i was hoping flash would make it (or fantasy) just so the top player for each respective race would be represented
What is up with these people saying Bisu is better and more consistent than Jaedong? At least some people like Roffles doesn't fail to see the truth. Seriously, fanboyism aside, if Bisu was the one who won back-to-back OSL, carried his team to PL Finals, and even gotten to MSL Semi (not to mention, winning at least 1 Gold EVERY season [thanks for mentioning that Avidkeystamper]) then I wouldn't even hesitate to say he's better than Jaedong.. but he's not!
On September 02 2009 02:25 danieldrsa wrote: And here comes Bisu to show again who owns
He won a proleague, is playing more consistently than JD, and deserves much more
My favorite player is Kim Taek Yong, but I'm sorry to say that you must be smoking some good shit. Because Jaedong right now is playing like a scary fucking beast and is undoubtedly the best player right now. Went deep in every league, and carried his failure of a team to the finals. What more do you want?
Sorry to say, but until Bisu picks up some consistency and actually makes some fucking finals, Jaedong is still the best. I will give him a pass because every other protoss failed hard this season basically.
just because he won the OSL he is not the best player Far from it JD is my 3rd favorite player, only after bisu and flash, so i like him a lot He definitely owns when he plays his best also
But
Everytime he loses theres a "why", be it lack of rest (like proleague finals), lack of map balance (last time he lost to bisu), lack of league importance (like in WCG now) Since the end of proleague he is playing kind of erratic (must be because of FA...)
People are saying he is far ahead of bisu, wich i agree in title importance, but not in current skill lvl The two are the main reason i still love this game so much
Dude, every time Bisu loses, he blames map imbalance. Okay? Jaedong is by far the BEST player currently. Unlike Bisu, he's making the semis on a CONSISTENT basis. Plus he's carrying his entire team on his back. If Bisu and JD were to have swapped teams, I guarantee you JD would have the title of "PL Champion/OSL Winner".
Bisu's good. But he cannot be compared to Jaedong right now. There's a reason why he is completely DOMINATING Kespa's ranking, and why everyone fears playing him.
Bisu only blamed map imba once, on Holy World (which was a graveyard)? The other times he was ASKED what he thought about the maps, and he won those games in which he was asked those questions.
I agree that JD > Bisu. And I'm a Bisu fan. However, people hating him for calling map imbalances is a bit of a bad reason. Jaedong doesnt complain about map imbalances because... the maps are pro-zergs this year. Look at the right of Teamliquid under Final Edits: Map of the Swarm. The maps are mostly for Zergs.
When Bisu was owning shit up in Z favored maps (IE 1.0 Medusa. Did you know Flash and Bisu Balanced Medusa haha?) he didn't say ANYTHING. Then suddenly when Tears of the Moon came out he claimed how all protosses cannot win vs Zerg without a fast FE and 1 base play is suicide.
On September 02 2009 15:02 scyper wrote: I agree that JD > Bisu. And I'm a Bisu fan. However, people hating him for calling map imbalances is a bit of a bad reason. Jaedong doesnt complain about map imbalances because... the maps are pro-zergs this year. Look at the right of Teamliquid under Final Edits: Map of the Swarm. The maps are mostly for Zergs.
Um...Jaedong didn't complain for like the 2 years before the maps became pro-zerg.
Isn't 1 base play pretty bad in PvZ though? They are good once in a while to surprise your opponent but I can't imagine winning consistently with 1 base play in PvZ. In fact, nowadays any 1 base play in all non-mirror MUs put you at a severe disadvantage when it doesn't work. Bisu is right about Protoss would be dead without FE, even if it was an excuse for his loss.
On September 02 2009 02:25 danieldrsa wrote: And here comes Bisu to show again who owns
He won a proleague, is playing more consistently than JD, and deserves much more
My favorite player is Kim Taek Yong, but I'm sorry to say that you must be smoking some good shit. Because Jaedong right now is playing like a scary fucking beast and is undoubtedly the best player right now. Went deep in every league, and carried his failure of a team to the finals. What more do you want?
Sorry to say, but until Bisu picks up some consistency and actually makes some fucking finals, Jaedong is still the best. I will give him a pass because every other protoss failed hard this season basically.
just because he won the OSL he is not the best player Far from it JD is my 3rd favorite player, only after bisu and flash, so i like him a lot He definitely owns when he plays his best also
But
Everytime he loses theres a "why", be it lack of rest (like proleague finals), lack of map balance (last time he lost to bisu), lack of league importance (like in WCG now) Since the end of proleague he is playing kind of erratic (must be because of FA...)
People are saying he is far ahead of bisu, wich i agree in title importance, but not in current skill lvl The two are the main reason i still love this game so much
Dude, every time Bisu loses, he blames map imbalance. Okay? Jaedong is by far the BEST player currently. Unlike Bisu, he's making the semis on a CONSISTENT basis. Plus he's carrying his entire team on his back. If Bisu and JD were to have swapped teams, I guarantee you JD would have the title of "PL Champion/OSL Winner".
Bisu's good. But he cannot be compared to Jaedong right now. There's a reason why he is completely DOMINATING Kespa's ranking, and why everyone fears playing him.
On September 02 2009 15:22 ArvickHero wrote: Isn't 1 base play pretty bad in PvZ though? They are good once in a while to surprise your opponent but I can't imagine winning consistently with 1 base play in PvZ. In fact, nowadays any 1 base play in all non-mirror MUs put you at a severe disadvantage when it doesn't work. Bisu is right about Protoss would be dead without FE, even if it was an excuse for his loss.
No, it's not the 1 base play, it's the lack of minerals on ToTm only and not other maps. Gee, look at Stork's interviews about ToTm. HUGE DIFFERENCE. Also, being right is not the same as not complaining, if he is right.
On September 02 2009 15:02 scyper wrote: I agree that JD > Bisu. And I'm a Bisu fan. However, people hating him for calling map imbalances is a bit of a bad reason. Jaedong doesnt complain about map imbalances because... the maps are pro-zergs this year. Look at the right of Teamliquid under Final Edits: Map of the Swarm. The maps are mostly for Zergs.
Um...Jaedong didn't complain for like the 2 years before the maps became pro-zerg.
I think the whining about the maps is exagerated. Like the OSL maps, Return of the king and Byzantium, still are bad for Z, yet Zergs win on it, most of the times with strange builds or superior play. On destination still zergs have the least wins, on HBR the stats are really balanced, on Outisder Zergs have the best stats but that's some of the best maps around, you cannot complain about that, on Colosseum they still are the weakest, on Neo Medusa Terrans have the msot wins, Toss and Zerg are tied. OK G'sG is zerg favoured, agreed, but Ts still have a winning percentage agianst Z.
Sounds like a shitty zerg-paradise mappool, right? And give me a break with Tears of the moon and the other maps which were used like 10 times till now.
Zergs are in a good shape, and the maps are quite good for them, but ppl, stop making comments which suggest Zergs won the SLs only because of the maps. (+dont forget Gom TVT finals, even if nobody gave a crap about it + WCG PvP)
On September 02 2009 15:22 ArvickHero wrote: Isn't 1 base play pretty bad in PvZ though? They are good once in a while to surprise your opponent but I can't imagine winning consistently with 1 base play in PvZ. In fact, nowadays any 1 base play in all non-mirror MUs put you at a severe disadvantage when it doesn't work. Bisu is right about Protoss would be dead without FE, even if it was an excuse for his loss.
No, it's not the 1 base play, it's the lack of minerals on ToTm only and not other maps. Gee, look at Stork's interviews about ToTm. HUGE DIFFERENCE. Also, being right is not the same as not complaining, if he is right.
You can't just read into progamer answers without context. Coliseum has 6 minerals in the natural, and protoss FE on it all the time. TOTM had 8 minerals in the natural, yet protoss are afraid to FE on it.
Why? Because Stork is discussing "relative", not "absolute". He's just pointing out that the position is possible to deal with ONLY if there were enough mineral patches to make it worth it. Coliseum is worth it because the expansion is super-safe. TOTM is not because it's super dangerous.
On September 02 2009 02:25 danieldrsa wrote: And here comes Bisu to show again who owns
He won a proleague, is playing more consistently than JD, and deserves much more
My favorite player is Kim Taek Yong, but I'm sorry to say that you must be smoking some good shit. Because Jaedong right now is playing like a scary fucking beast and is undoubtedly the best player right now. Went deep in every league, and carried his failure of a team to the finals. What more do you want?
Sorry to say, but until Bisu picks up some consistency and actually makes some fucking finals, Jaedong is still the best. I will give him a pass because every other protoss failed hard this season basically.
just because he won the OSL he is not the best player Far from it JD is my 3rd favorite player, only after bisu and flash, so i like him a lot He definitely owns when he plays his best also
But
Everytime he loses theres a "why", be it lack of rest (like proleague finals), lack of map balance (last time he lost to bisu), lack of league importance (like in WCG now) Since the end of proleague he is playing kind of erratic (must be because of FA...)
People are saying he is far ahead of bisu, wich i agree in title importance, but not in current skill lvl The two are the main reason i still love this game so much
Dude, every time Bisu loses, he blames map imbalance. Okay? Jaedong is by far the BEST player currently. Unlike Bisu, he's making the semis on a CONSISTENT basis. Plus he's carrying his entire team on his back. If Bisu and JD were to have swapped teams, I guarantee you JD would have the title of "PL Champion/OSL Winner".
Bisu's good. But he cannot be compared to Jaedong right now. There's a reason why he is completely DOMINATING Kespa's ranking, and why everyone fears playing him.
lololololol
Such a blind antifan.
I'm pretty sure Jaedong has accomplished much more than Bisu over the last few seasons. A quick glance at TLPD will tell you this. Blind anti-fan? Someone clearly hasn't been reading my WCG OPs. It's quite clear that I favor Protoss over other races.
But when it comes down to who's been more dominant lately, there is no question at all that Jaedong has been THE most consistent and most dominant lately. Back to back OSLs, and winning even when Protosses were raping everything alive is nothing to scoff at.
On September 02 2009 23:38 Avidkeystamper wrote: FE is obviously better but 1 base play is not impossible on ToTM merely because it's one base, but because of the low econ in the main.
TOTM has 8 minerals in the main, and 8 in the natural. Protoss players have managed to beat zergs on maps with 8/7 and 9/6 patches in the main and natural respectively. Again, I don't see how you can interpret Stork's words literally.
You can make better arguments that Monty Hall and Plasma are viable for zergs than TOTM for protosses.
On September 02 2009 02:25 danieldrsa wrote: And here comes Bisu to show again who owns
He won a proleague, is playing more consistently than JD, and deserves much more
My favorite player is Kim Taek Yong, but I'm sorry to say that you must be smoking some good shit. Because Jaedong right now is playing like a scary fucking beast and is undoubtedly the best player right now. Went deep in every league, and carried his failure of a team to the finals. What more do you want?
Sorry to say, but until Bisu picks up some consistency and actually makes some fucking finals, Jaedong is still the best. I will give him a pass because every other protoss failed hard this season basically.
just because he won the OSL he is not the best player Far from it JD is my 3rd favorite player, only after bisu and flash, so i like him a lot He definitely owns when he plays his best also
But
Everytime he loses theres a "why", be it lack of rest (like proleague finals), lack of map balance (last time he lost to bisu), lack of league importance (like in WCG now) Since the end of proleague he is playing kind of erratic (must be because of FA...)
People are saying he is far ahead of bisu, wich i agree in title importance, but not in current skill lvl The two are the main reason i still love this game so much
Dude, every time Bisu loses, he blames map imbalance. Okay? Jaedong is by far the BEST player currently. Unlike Bisu, he's making the semis on a CONSISTENT basis. Plus he's carrying his entire team on his back. If Bisu and JD were to have swapped teams, I guarantee you JD would have the title of "PL Champion/OSL Winner".
Bisu's good. But he cannot be compared to Jaedong right now. There's a reason why he is completely DOMINATING Kespa's ranking, and why everyone fears playing him.
lololololol
Such a blind antifan.
I'm pretty sure Jaedong has accomplished much more than Bisu over the last few seasons. A quick glance at TLPD will tell you this. Blind anti-fan? Someone clearly hasn't been reading my WCG OPs. It's quite clear that I favor Protoss over other races.
But when it comes down to who's been more dominant lately, there is no question at all that Jaedong has been THE most consistent and most dominant lately. Back to back OSLs, and winning even when Protosses were raping everything alive is nothing to scoff at.
I was talking of consistency in last games (+- 30), not in overall career Aside from OSL JD didnt done very well lately (which is not a bad thing)
Hear me, i like JD, but Proleague is the championship where Bisu was key in various victories (including over JD), where JD was his team. Bisu (and SKT) won, JD (he is his team) lost.
The problem of complaints is not of JD but his fans. Always he loses is for something, hes never outplayed. The "tireness" argument, the map imbalances and other things.
And that argument of bisu=arrogant, JD=nice is ridiculous also.
JD>Bisu in titles. I like him for his acomplishments. In current skill level? never. Its hype for the golden mouse.
On September 02 2009 23:38 Avidkeystamper wrote: FE is obviously better but 1 base play is not impossible on ToTM merely because it's one base, but because of the low econ in the main.
TOTM has 8 minerals in the main, and 8 in the natural. Protoss players have managed to beat zergs on maps with 8/7 and 9/6 patches in the main and natural respectively. Again, I don't see how you can interpret Stork's words literally.
You can make better arguments that Monty Hall and Plasma are viable for zergs than TOTM for protosses.
Nono, I mean the viability of one base tech changes a lot depending on how many minerals in the main only. Bisu was not right in saying that one base tech was impossible vs zergs, but he was in the context of the interview when he talks about playing on Totm, with its lack of minerals. There's a reason Byzantium 1's PvZ balance shifted significantly with the removal of a mineral patch in the main and expo and back again after the patches were edited back in.
On September 02 2009 07:13 andrewlt wrote: Haha, that's a nice theory. Protoss got eliminated so early in starleagues that Jaedong, Fantasy and co are rusty vP.
Sorry, but that's just a stupid theory. Why the HELL would they jeopardize their chances of winning a starleague just so others could be rusty vs protoss? -_-
I'm not saying they intentionally lost those matches.
On September 02 2009 02:25 danieldrsa wrote: And here comes Bisu to show again who owns
He won a proleague, is playing more consistently than JD, and deserves much more
My favorite player is Kim Taek Yong, but I'm sorry to say that you must be smoking some good shit. Because Jaedong right now is playing like a scary fucking beast and is undoubtedly the best player right now. Went deep in every league, and carried his failure of a team to the finals. What more do you want?
Sorry to say, but until Bisu picks up some consistency and actually makes some fucking finals, Jaedong is still the best. I will give him a pass because every other protoss failed hard this season basically.
just because he won the OSL he is not the best player Far from it JD is my 3rd favorite player, only after bisu and flash, so i like him a lot He definitely owns when he plays his best also
But
Everytime he loses theres a "why", be it lack of rest (like proleague finals), lack of map balance (last time he lost to bisu), lack of league importance (like in WCG now) Since the end of proleague he is playing kind of erratic (must be because of FA...)
People are saying he is far ahead of bisu, wich i agree in title importance, but not in current skill lvl The two are the main reason i still love this game so much
Dude, every time Bisu loses, he blames map imbalance. Okay? Jaedong is by far the BEST player currently. Unlike Bisu, he's making the semis on a CONSISTENT basis. Plus he's carrying his entire team on his back. If Bisu and JD were to have swapped teams, I guarantee you JD would have the title of "PL Champion/OSL Winner".
Bisu's good. But he cannot be compared to Jaedong right now. There's a reason why he is completely DOMINATING Kespa's ranking, and why everyone fears playing him.
lololololol
Such a blind antifan.
I'm pretty sure Jaedong has accomplished much more than Bisu over the last few seasons. A quick glance at TLPD will tell you this. Blind anti-fan? Someone clearly hasn't been reading my WCG OPs. It's quite clear that I favor Protoss over other races.
But when it comes down to who's been more dominant lately, there is no question at all that Jaedong has been THE most consistent and most dominant lately. Back to back OSLs, and winning even when Protosses were raping everything alive is nothing to scoff at.
I was talking of consistency in last games (+- 30), not in overall career Aside from OSL JD didnt done very well lately (which is not a bad thing)
Hear me, i like JD, but Proleague is the championship where Bisu was key in various victories (including over JD), where JD was his team. Bisu (and SKT) won, JD (he is his team) lost.
The problem of complaints is not of JD but his fans. Always he loses is for something, hes never outplayed. The "tireness" argument, the map imbalances and other things.
And that argument of bisu=arrogant, JD=nice is ridiculous also.
JD>Bisu in titles. I like him for his acomplishments. In current skill level? never. Its hype for the golden mouse.
Dude, you've gotta be fucking shitting me right? Jaedong outside of OSL didn't do well? I quit arguing with you. You basically countered with an argument that parallels, "Jaedong's a fucking skilless newbie, who's all hype". Plus, JD outside of OSL didn't do really well? That's like saying "JulyZerg isn't fat".
Put away the fucking homer glasses, because if you've actually watched his recent games, there's no way you can dismiss Jaedong as "Not on par skill-wise with Bisu" or "Isn't doing well outside of OSL"
Hey buddy, JD made it further than Bisu in every single league. Watch the games. I admire your Protoss fanboyism, but to blindly argue that Bisu is more skilled than Jaedong and is more consistent lately is just absolutely fucking stupid.
Jaedong buddy is NOT all hype. For all we know, he's actually ahead H2H against Bisu and has taken the only series match they've played against each other (Even if it didn't really matter). The guy has absolutely stunning mechanics, plays as aggressive as July, and has top notch micro and multitask. To say his current skill level is not as high as Bisu's is just plain stupid.
I admire you sticking up for Protoss/Bisu, but when you argue blindly, that's just stupid.
no relax...he just tried to point out that jaedong was a little inconsistent this season (losing to some players he shouldnt have lost to remember that? admit it) compared to last season for instance. bisu on the other hand has been a little more consistent this season (though u could argue otherwise cuz he lost to gogo and iris and zero, so he hasnt been completely consistent either...). and i have to agree with that to a certain extent (i mean bisu had like 79% winning rate in the proleague games and was just 1 game short of matching jaedong on the number of wins, you have to admit he did better in the proleague as an individual player), but jaedong still deserves credit for winning what really matters to him. i guess something similar applies to flash and fantasy, fantasy is just better at starleagues. some people have it in them more than others i guess, and though bisu is one of the ones who also has it in him, he just needs to get further in the leagues more consistently. basically, both players have consistent and inconsistent moments, its all part of the game and nothing to be ashamed of.
but please...bisu and jaedong are the best of their races right now. why the fuck are you people arguing over whos better? no offense but jesus...stop it...
Everytime Jaedong ever loses a game it's 'a little inconsistent' because he should've beat them. Jaedong, by all rights, SHOULD beat everyone in the game everytime because he's the mechanically superior player, but Maps, sniperific strats, surprise showings, and more importantly practice time deem otherwise.
This was not Bisu's season. Jaedong went further in both OSL and MSL, and took one of the titles, all on the back of a lot of personal struggle in FA and proleague duties. It may very have well been the maps/trends, but this was Jaedong's season.
On September 02 2009 02:25 danieldrsa wrote: And here comes Bisu to show again who owns
He won a proleague, is playing more consistently than JD, and deserves much more
My favorite player is Kim Taek Yong, but I'm sorry to say that you must be smoking some good shit. Because Jaedong right now is playing like a scary fucking beast and is undoubtedly the best player right now. Went deep in every league, and carried his failure of a team to the finals. What more do you want?
Sorry to say, but until Bisu picks up some consistency and actually makes some fucking finals, Jaedong is still the best. I will give him a pass because every other protoss failed hard this season basically.
just because he won the OSL he is not the best player Far from it JD is my 3rd favorite player, only after bisu and flash, so i like him a lot He definitely owns when he plays his best also
But
Everytime he loses theres a "why", be it lack of rest (like proleague finals), lack of map balance (last time he lost to bisu), lack of league importance (like in WCG now) Since the end of proleague he is playing kind of erratic (must be because of FA...)
People are saying he is far ahead of bisu, wich i agree in title importance, but not in current skill lvl The two are the main reason i still love this game so much
Dude, every time Bisu loses, he blames map imbalance. Okay? Jaedong is by far the BEST player currently. Unlike Bisu, he's making the semis on a CONSISTENT basis. Plus he's carrying his entire team on his back. If Bisu and JD were to have swapped teams, I guarantee you JD would have the title of "PL Champion/OSL Winner".
Bisu's good. But he cannot be compared to Jaedong right now. There's a reason why he is completely DOMINATING Kespa's ranking, and why everyone fears playing him.
Bisu only blamed map imba once, on Holy World (which was a graveyard)? The other times he was ASKED what he thought about the maps, and he won those games in which he was asked those questions.
When asked about Neo-Medusa, didn't Bisu specifically say that he thought the Proxy Hatch strategy was imbalance, after losing to by.great over it?
On September 02 2009 02:25 danieldrsa wrote: And here comes Bisu to show again who owns
He won a proleague, is playing more consistently than JD, and deserves much more
My favorite player is Kim Taek Yong, but I'm sorry to say that you must be smoking some good shit. Because Jaedong right now is playing like a scary fucking beast and is undoubtedly the best player right now. Went deep in every league, and carried his failure of a team to the finals. What more do you want?
Sorry to say, but until Bisu picks up some consistency and actually makes some fucking finals, Jaedong is still the best. I will give him a pass because every other protoss failed hard this season basically.
just because he won the OSL he is not the best player Far from it JD is my 3rd favorite player, only after bisu and flash, so i like him a lot He definitely owns when he plays his best also
But
Everytime he loses theres a "why", be it lack of rest (like proleague finals), lack of map balance (last time he lost to bisu), lack of league importance (like in WCG now) Since the end of proleague he is playing kind of erratic (must be because of FA...)
People are saying he is far ahead of bisu, wich i agree in title importance, but not in current skill lvl The two are the main reason i still love this game so much
Dude, every time Bisu loses, he blames map imbalance. Okay? Jaedong is by far the BEST player currently. Unlike Bisu, he's making the semis on a CONSISTENT basis. Plus he's carrying his entire team on his back. If Bisu and JD were to have swapped teams, I guarantee you JD would have the title of "PL Champion/OSL Winner".
Bisu's good. But he cannot be compared to Jaedong right now. There's a reason why he is completely DOMINATING Kespa's ranking, and why everyone fears playing him.
lololololol
Such a blind antifan.
I'm pretty sure Jaedong has accomplished much more than Bisu over the last few seasons. A quick glance at TLPD will tell you this. Blind anti-fan? Someone clearly hasn't been reading my WCG OPs. It's quite clear that I favor Protoss over other races.
But when it comes down to who's been more dominant lately, there is no question at all that Jaedong has been THE most consistent and most dominant lately. Back to back OSLs, and winning even when Protosses were raping everything alive is nothing to scoff at.
1. I never said anything about JD accomplishing more than Bisu, I agree with that. 2. I never said anything about race. 3. Again, I never said anything about JD's ownage recently.
Dude, every time Bisu loses, he blames map imbalance. Okay?
Bisu's complaints about map imbalance are fair, both from him and to pick on him for. It's not like he's lying when he says ToTM is imbalanced, but it's hard not to call him out on blaming such things when the other two top players made their names and some of their greatest matches on horribly imba maps. Flash on Katrina, and to a lesser extent, Jaedong on Chupung-Ryeong.
On September 03 2009 16:31 TwoToneTerran wrote: Bisu's complaints about map imbalance are fair, both from him and to pick on him for. It's not like he's lying when he says ToTM is imbalanced, but it's hard not to call him out on blaming such things when the other two top players made their names and some of their greatest matches on horribly imba maps. Flash on Katrina, and to a lesser extent, Jaedong on Chupung-Ryeong.
IIRC Bisu raped in Medusa 1.0 PvZ too (he is 9:2, which is just as good as Flash's 7:1). Removing Both player's stats makes Medusa even worse of a map lol
God medusa was such a shitty shitty map but it produced some of the best games
If you take out Bisu's games, it becomes nearly 50-50 PvZ. So yeah without Bisu it doesn't have its "protoss" favored charm. but he didn't really 'balance' it so much as imbalance it in favor of protoss.
Nowhere near the same rapefest that was Katrina PvT. with or without Flash, which turns it from an already sickeningly bad 25-9 PvT to an almost impossible 24-3 (74% to 84%, ick), or Sin Chupung-Ryeong TvZ without Jaedong, which goes from a slightly bearable 18-12(60% in favor of Terran) to 16-5(76%, blech). These guys both won titles on those maps, too (Flash GSI and Bacchus, Jaedong Batoo).
But the real point I'm trying to make here is, when we hear Bisu talk about playing on hard maps, he, fairly, points out that the maps are imbalanced and it's not fair for whatever reason. This isn't bad on its own, but almost no other gamer really talks about how hard maps are (Flash), and the only time in recent memory anyone but Bisu in the top 4 (flash/jaeodng/bisu/fantasy) talked about map imbalance was Jaedong, when he said Sin-Chupung-Ryeong wasn't that hard for zerg, despite the then near 70% loss rate that he brought up to a slightly more manageable number.
There's nothing wrong about pointing out map imbalance in and of itself, but when you're constantly compared to two guys who made their careers laughing at both Map and Race imba (Katrina and PvT, SCR and TvZ), it looks a little whiny.
Medusa is close to an example of that but it doesn't really count if you only take an even ratio and make it better for Protoss, as opposed to maps that, even with your help, are still *heavily* imba against your race. Not saying Jaedong and Flash are immune to map imba (lolol Arena MSL), just that they don't come off as whiny in any way shape or form about it and instead triumph more over it (Miracle that Jaedong made it to Arena MSL finals. Who 3-0's Hwasin, ZvT, on Collo, Othello, and Athena? Madness, not to mention winning Batoo on SCR. Let's not even talk about Flash's Protoss killing OSL/GSI run, which was more a quadruple victory over Katrina than Taek-Bang).
Bisu's the best Protoss that ever lived, but as far as map dominating street cred goes, Taekdusa isn't really a triumph over imbalance, like Flashtrina and...Sin-Chupung...Jaedong? THESE NAMES ARE AWFUL
On September 03 2009 20:27 TwoToneTerran wrote: If you take out Bisu's games, it becomes nearly 50-50 PvZ. So yeah without Bisu it doesn't have its "protoss" favored charm. but he didn't really 'balance' it so much as imbalance it in favor of protoss.
Nowhere near the same rapefest that was Katrina PvT. with or without Flash, which turns it from an already sickeningly bad 25-9 PvT to an almost impossible 24-3 (74% to 84%, ick), or Sin Chupung-Ryeong TvZ without Jaedong, which goes from a slightly bearable 18-12(60% in favor of Terran) to 16-5(76%, blech).
But the real point I'm trying to make here is, when we hear Bisu talk about playing on hard maps, he, fairly, points out that the maps are imbalanced and it's not fair for whatever reason. This isn't bad on its own, but almost no other gamer really talks about how hard maps are (Flash), and the only time in recent memory anyone but Bisu in the top 4 (flash/jaeodng/bisu/fantasy) talked about map imbalance was Jaedong, when he said Sin-Chupung-Ryeong wasn't that hard for zerg, despite the then near 70% loss rate that he brought up to a slightly more manageable number.
There's nothing wrong about pointing out map imbalance in and of itself, but when you're constantly compared to two guys who made their careers laughing at both Map and Race imba (Katrina and PvT, SCR and TvZ), it looks a little whiny.
Medusa is close to an example of that but it doesn't really count if you only take an even ratio and make it better for Protoss, as opposed to maps that, even with your help, are still *heavily* imba against your race. Not saying Jaedong and Flash are immune to map imba (lolol Arena MSL), just that they come off as way whiny about it and triumph more over it (Miracle that Jaedong made it to Arena MSL finals. Who 3-0's Hwasin, ZvT, on Collo, Othello, and Athena? Madness. Let's not even talk about Flash's Protoss killing OSL/GSI run, which was more a quadruple victory over Katrina than Taek-Bang).
Bisu's the best Protoss that ever lived, but as far as map dominating street cred goes, Taekdusa isn't really a triumph over imbalance, like Flashtrina and...Sin-Chupung...Jaedong? THESE NAMES ARE AWFUL
Speaking of Katrina, JD went 19-3 on both versions of that map. Sick.
On September 03 2009 20:50 TwoToneTerran wrote: 19-2, both losses to Flash. But it wasn't really cripplingly imba for zerg and the only title he won off of it was Gom Season 1 I think, right?
edit: oh right, his MSL run. Yeah his MSL run was actually pretty hard, mapwise. He beat Kal on Katrina and Loki II, pretty hard ZvP maps.
You know I never thought of his Ever run as really challenging, mapwise, but there you go. Apparently Katrina really likes Jaedong.
Only emphasizes my point.
Oddly, every title that Bisu has aside from his obviously monstrous 3-0 of Savior (On maps that weren't bad for either ZvP or PvZ overall) are all PvPs, his strongest match up(and obviously lacking in overcoming map imbalance). Not to take anything away from his incredible 3 MSLs, GSL, and WCG title, I just wonder how big of a deal would Jaedong be if, after he beat Stork in the OSL, all his follow up titles (2 osls, 1 gsl, 1 msl, 1 WCG) were all ZvZs?
On September 03 2009 20:27 TwoToneTerran wrote: If you take out Bisu's games, it becomes nearly 50-50 PvZ. So yeah without Bisu it doesn't have its "protoss" favored charm. but he didn't really 'balance' it so much as imbalance it in favor of protoss.
Nowhere near the same rapefest that was Katrina PvT. with or without Flash, which turns it from an already sickeningly bad 25-9 PvT to an almost impossible 24-3 (74% to 84%, ick), or Sin Chupung-Ryeong TvZ without Jaedong, which goes from a slightly bearable 18-12(60% in favor of Terran) to 16-5(76%, blech). These guys both won titles on those maps, too (Flash GSI and Bacchus, Jaedong Batoo).
But the real point I'm trying to make here is, when we hear Bisu talk about playing on hard maps, he, fairly, points out that the maps are imbalanced and it's not fair for whatever reason. This isn't bad on its own, but almost no other gamer really talks about how hard maps are (Flash), and the only time in recent memory anyone but Bisu in the top 4 (flash/jaeodng/bisu/fantasy) talked about map imbalance was Jaedong, when he said Sin-Chupung-Ryeong wasn't that hard for zerg, despite the then near 70% loss rate that he brought up to a slightly more manageable number.
There's nothing wrong about pointing out map imbalance in and of itself, but when you're constantly compared to two guys who made their careers laughing at both Map and Race imba (Katrina and PvT, SCR and TvZ), it looks a little whiny.
Medusa is close to an example of that but it doesn't really count if you only take an even ratio and make it better for Protoss, as opposed to maps that, even with your help, are still *heavily* imba against your race. Not saying Jaedong and Flash are immune to map imba (lolol Arena MSL), just that they don't come off as whiny in any way shape or form about it and instead triumph more over it (Miracle that Jaedong made it to Arena MSL finals. Who 3-0's Hwasin, ZvT, on Collo, Othello, and Athena? Madness, not to mention winning Batoo on SCR. Let's not even talk about Flash's Protoss killing OSL/GSI run, which was more a quadruple victory over Katrina than Taek-Bang).
Bisu's the best Protoss that ever lived, but as far as map dominating street cred goes, Taekdusa isn't really a triumph over imbalance, like Flashtrina and...Sin-Chupung...Jaedong? THESE NAMES ARE AWFUL
I don't think Bisu is inconsistent at all. JD has more titles and win 2OSLs in a row. Bisu just does not do well in OSL. Apart from that he does win one MSL and GSL in the last 12 month. In PL Bisu does more consistent last year, but in individual League is JD better overall. They are both incrediable good/consistent player.
On September 02 2009 02:25 danieldrsa wrote: And here comes Bisu to show again who owns
He won a proleague, is playing more consistently than JD, and deserves much more
My favorite player is Kim Taek Yong, but I'm sorry to say that you must be smoking some good shit. Because Jaedong right now is playing like a scary fucking beast and is undoubtedly the best player right now. Went deep in every league, and carried his failure of a team to the finals. What more do you want?
Sorry to say, but until Bisu picks up some consistency and actually makes some fucking finals, Jaedong is still the best. I will give him a pass because every other protoss failed hard this season basically.
just because he won the OSL he is not the best player Far from it JD is my 3rd favorite player, only after bisu and flash, so i like him a lot He definitely owns when he plays his best also
But
Everytime he loses theres a "why", be it lack of rest (like proleague finals), lack of map balance (last time he lost to bisu), lack of league importance (like in WCG now) Since the end of proleague he is playing kind of erratic (must be because of FA...)
People are saying he is far ahead of bisu, wich i agree in title importance, but not in current skill lvl The two are the main reason i still love this game so much
Dude, every time Bisu loses, he blames map imbalance. Okay? Jaedong is by far the BEST player currently. Unlike Bisu, he's making the semis on a CONSISTENT basis. Plus he's carrying his entire team on his back. If Bisu and JD were to have swapped teams, I guarantee you JD would have the title of "PL Champion/OSL Winner".
Bisu's good. But he cannot be compared to Jaedong right now. There's a reason why he is completely DOMINATING Kespa's ranking, and why everyone fears playing him.
lololololol
Such a blind antifan.
I'm pretty sure Jaedong has accomplished much more than Bisu over the last few seasons. A quick glance at TLPD will tell you this. Blind anti-fan? Someone clearly hasn't been reading my WCG OPs. It's quite clear that I favor Protoss over other races.
But when it comes down to who's been more dominant lately, there is no question at all that Jaedong has been THE most consistent and most dominant lately. Back to back OSLs, and winning even when Protosses were raping everything alive is nothing to scoff at.
I was talking of consistency in last games (+- 30), not in overall career Aside from OSL JD didnt done very well lately (which is not a bad thing)
Hear me, i like JD, but Proleague is the championship where Bisu was key in various victories (including over JD), where JD was his team. Bisu (and SKT) won, JD (he is his team) lost.
The problem of complaints is not of JD but his fans. Always he loses is for something, hes never outplayed. The "tireness" argument, the map imbalances and other things.
And that argument of bisu=arrogant, JD=nice is ridiculous also.
JD>Bisu in titles. I like him for his acomplishments. In current skill level? never. Its hype for the golden mouse.
Dude, you've gotta be fucking shitting me right? Jaedong outside of OSL didn't do well? I quit arguing with you. You basically countered with an argument that parallels, "Jaedong's a fucking skilless newbie, who's all hype". Plus, JD outside of OSL didn't do really well? That's like saying "JulyZerg isn't fat".
Put away the fucking homer glasses, because if you've actually watched his recent games, there's no way you can dismiss Jaedong as "Not on par skill-wise with Bisu" or "Isn't doing well outside of OSL"
Hey buddy, JD made it further than Bisu in every single league. Watch the games. I admire your Protoss fanboyism, but to blindly argue that Bisu is more skilled than Jaedong and is more consistent lately is just absolutely fucking stupid.
Jaedong buddy is NOT all hype. For all we know, he's actually ahead H2H against Bisu and has taken the only series match they've played against each other (Even if it didn't really matter). The guy has absolutely stunning mechanics, plays as aggressive as July, and has top notch micro and multitask. To say his current skill level is not as high as Bisu's is just plain stupid.
I admire you sticking up for Protoss/Bisu, but when you argue blindly, that's just stupid.
Calm down dude, you are overacting somethings Read again what i wrote. Dont try to put words on mine posts, i just said that ppl saying JD is absolutely superior to bisu is because of the hype of the golden mouse. I´ve never said anything JD is all hype, you try to counter-argument with things i havent said.
Please, quote me where i said JD is all hype and his skill lvl is not as high as Bisu... I said just that they are equal. And you came and put words on my replies again. See my post history and you´ll see i like JD a lot. Just because i justified my point of view dont spam words like "fucking" and "blind protoss fan".
I think its way more stupid when you reply blindly, and put words on others mouths, specialy using some disrespectful words.
On September 04 2009 03:16 neotoss wrote: According TLPD from 2008-08 to 2009-08
I don't think Bisu is inconsistent at all. JD has more titles and win 2OSLs in a row. Bisu just does not do well in OSL. Apart from that he does win one MSL and GSL in the last 12 month. In PL Bisu does more consistent last year, but in individual League is JD better overall. They are both incrediable good/consistent player.
Its useless argumenting that. The stats you put is perfect. Thats what im trying to say but, if you dont cheer JD, you are a blind Bisu fanboy and is trolling. I not said JD is not consistent, just that Bisu was more since the end of proleague (Bisu 5 losses and JD 10 losses) Yes JD won the best title, its amazing.
I just dont agree with JD>Bisu in skill level. Thats all. Nothing behind these words. They are still even. And WCG just confirmed that.
On September 03 2009 20:59 TwoToneTerran wrote: You know I never thought of his Ever run as really challenging, mapwise, but there you go. Apparently Katrina really likes Jaedong.
Only emphasizes my point.
Oddly, every title that Bisu has aside from his obviously monstrous 3-0 of Savior (On maps that weren't bad for either ZvP or PvZ overall) are all PvPs, his strongest match up(and obviously lacking in overcoming map imbalance). Not to take anything away from his incredible 3 MSLs, GSL, and WCG title, I just wonder how big of a deal would Jaedong be if, after he beat Stork in the OSL, all his follow up titles (2 osls, 1 gsl, 1 msl, 1 WCG) were all ZvZs?
Sorry, but you are saying Bisu is all about pvp, ignoring his pvz (wich is the best up today yet) Last OSL was bad for ZvZ finals? No The true final was JDxFantasy, that destroyed him in proleague final, wich put a decent value for JD gold.
No, you're wrong, on two accounts. WCG was skewed by the fact that Jaedong was busy with FA. Hell, he was busy with FA during his OSL victory but that's actually a seriously important tournament to him.
And secondly, while PvZ is what Bisu made his name on, PvP is the match up he shows the most consistency in, and beats the strongest opponents in more often than not. It's also the match up he's played for 4 of his 5 titles. Bisu is strongest in his mirror because he's the strongest protoss in general -- it's the same with Flash in TvT and Jaedong in ZvZ. Bisu just caught a good break when he got to play lots of PvP finals.
Wait, didn't you just complain about someone putting their words into your posts? I didn't say Bisu is ALL about PvP -- that'd be like saying Jaedong is all about ZvZ. All four S Class players are good in EVERY match up, they just all specialize/perform the best in their mirrors. Stop acting like I said things I didn't. The analogy was that Bisu A) Hasn't won a title with disadvantageous maps and B) He's won every title except for his first MSL in his statistically strongest (and strongest in execution. You can't tell me Bisu's PvZ doesn't look painful fallible all the time with dropping out of every group stage to Zergs) matchup. You absolutely can't refute this.
Jaedong, on the other hand, has won 1 title in ZvZ, his strong match up, and has won every other title in his weakest match up (ZvP) on disadvantageous maps (Katrina and such) or in his middle matchup (zvt) and DEFINITELY on disadvantageous matchups (against Fantasy on Neo Medusa, Sin Chupung Ryeong)
On September 04 2009 07:14 TwoToneTerran wrote: No, you're wrong, on two accounts. WCG was skewed by the fact that Jaedong was busy with FA. Hell, he was busy with FA during his OSL victory but that's actually a seriously important tournament to him.
Thats summarize what i said every post. Many JD fans never admit a lose; Hes never outplayed. Theres always a "why" on his losses.
JD is a wonderful player by itself and dont need this type of defense. He never complain, but many fans do it for him. Ill take that as a provocation, but it fails because i love SC more than my favorite players.
Isnt wondeful what happened? Bisu=Proleague Flash=GOM JD=OSL
On September 04 2009 07:14 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong, on the other hand, has won 1 title in ZvZ, his strong match up, and has won every other title in his weakest match up (ZvP) on disadvantageous maps (Katrina and such) or in his middle matchup (zvt) and DEFINITELY on disadvantageous matchups (against Fantasy on Neo Medusa, Sin Chupung Ryeong)
Let's not get carried away here. Jaedong has never conquered map imbalance. Neo Medusa favors Zerg (easy muta harass, easy backstabs via the backdoor, wide open middle, mech sucks because expos are too spread out and open middle). Sin Chupung-Ryeong is quite balanced (8 mineral patch main, terrain in various places favors both races, nice for muta harass). Blindly looking at TLPD kinda kills one's argument. To be fair, Bisu never conquered disadvantageous maps either. He's just a monster at fully utilizing already advantageous maps. The only modern player to truly have done so is Flash (Katrina and Medusa), and before him it was Savior (RT, Longinus).
Bisu's PvZ is also undisputably his best matchup overall. Just because his PvP has a higher % doesn't mean anything. He and Stork have always been neck and neck when they were both in form (Gom S2 MSL finals 3-2 Bisu, Ever 07 OSL 3-0 Stork, Incruit OSL 2-1 Stork, WCG 09 kor finals 2-0 Bisu), a clear indication that he never truly dominated it.
On the other hand, beating Bonjwa Savior 3-0 and singlehandedly sending the most dominant vP player ever into a never ending spiral is a feat probably only July can equal (beating invincible TvZ oov in 3 different series). Bisu's only PvZ competitor is rA, and the former is clearly much better, especially considering their performances vs Savior.
On September 03 2009 05:58 danieldrsa wrote: JD>Bisu in titles. I like him for his acomplishments. In current skill level? never. Its hype for the golden mouse.
Lol? Skill level not the same?
Name me the zerg that has the highest level of skill in ZvT and ZvZ in the world.
Ooops.
I'm a super Jaedong fan, but I also have mad mad respect for Bisu. What Bisu did for Protoss equals what Savior did for Zerg.
I would say what seperates Jaedong from Bisu is that Jaedong's hunger is a tad bit more than Bisu's.
On September 04 2009 07:14 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong, on the other hand, has won 1 title in ZvZ, his strong match up, and has won every other title in his weakest match up (ZvP) on disadvantageous maps (Katrina and such) or in his middle matchup (zvt) and DEFINITELY on disadvantageous matchups (against Fantasy on Neo Medusa, Sin Chupung Ryeong)
Let's not get carried away here. Jaedong has never conquered map imbalance. Neo Medusa favors Zerg (easy muta harass, easy backstabs via the backdoor, wide open middle, mech sucks because expos are too spread out and open middle). Sin Chupung-Ryeong is quite balanced (8 mineral patch main, terrain in various places favors both races, nice for muta harass). Blindly looking at TLPD kinda kills one's argument. To be fair, Bisu never conquered disadvantageous maps either. He's just a monster at fully utilizing already advantageous maps. The only modern player to truly have done so is Flash (Katrina and Medusa), and before him it was Savior (RT, Longinus).
Bisu's PvZ is also undisputably his best matchup overall. Just because his PvP has a higher % doesn't mean anything. He and Stork have always been neck and neck when they were both in form (Gom S2 MSL finals 3-2 Bisu, Ever 07 OSL 3-0 Stork, Incruit OSL 2-1 Stork, WCG 09 kor finals 2-0 Bisu), a clear indication that he never truly dominated it.
On the other hand, beating Bonjwa Savior 3-0 and singlehandedly sending the most dominant vP player ever into a never ending spiral is a feat probably only July can equal (beating invincible TvZ oov in 3 different series). Bisu's only PvZ competitor is rA, and the former is clearly much better, especially considering their performances vs Savior.
TLPD unfortunately only shows so much.
edit -- Honestly if you don't think SCR and Neo Medusa are TvZ maps then there's not much hope for this argument. If you want a difficult map pool for a finals win from Jaedong then his MSL is a really good pick with Loki II and Katrina, and there's no way you can refute that those are great PvZ maps.
You're insane if you think PvP isn't Bisu's best match-up. Referencing a game from 2 years ago when things were MUCH different is insane. Every single one of Bisu's recent titles comes from PvP wins, and his PvP winrate is higher because he schools protoss more regularly. Bisu drops MSLs and OSLs almost entirely to zergs lately (Zero, By.Hero, his all Zerg MSL groups which bite him in the ass), but when he gets shoved in an all PvP group, he prevails?
PvZ is his famous match up, and his PvZ is by far the best, but that doesn't make it his best match up. Jaedong's ZvT is the best (yes, better than Yarnc, Effort, or Calm), but ZvZ is still his best match up.
You know who else has a revolutionary match up that completely stomped the top players of the time? Flash, in TvP, who singlehandedly obsoleted Carriers, won his first two titles in TvP, and was the only person to put a halt onf Taek-Bang's dominance. But you would be absolutely foolish to think that TvT isn't Flash's best match up. It doesn't matter how badly he stomped Stork and Bisu and Jangbi in their primes, TvT is where he loses the least and is always the favorite. This applies to Bisu, as well.
On September 03 2009 05:58 danieldrsa wrote: JD>Bisu in titles. I like him for his acomplishments. In current skill level? never. Its hype for the golden mouse.
Lol? Skill level not the same?
Name me the zerg that has the highest level of skill in ZvT and ZvZ in the world.
Ooops.
I'm a super Jaedong fan, but I also have mad mad respect for Bisu. What Bisu did for Protoss equals what Savior did for Zerg.
I would say what seperates Jaedong from Bisu is that Jaedong's hunger is a tad bit more than Bisu's.
How is his hunger more? Definitly no evidence of this, just bs.
As a protoss player, I have a slight bias towards protoss players, but I have to say jaedong is better just because he is much more stable. He has the best zvp and zvz right now while yarnc has the best zvt. Bisu is awesome and he made pvz actually playable, but the thing with bisu is that his pvt never gave me the confidence that stork or jangbi gave when they weren't in their epic slump. Bisu would win protoss often, but then he would lose it. Bisu is better than stork because bisu's pvt is better than stork's pvz, but the title of best protoss is often split between those two since in pvp wise they are equally skilled. Bisu is more well rounded than stork, but stork's best mu is better than bisu's. But the main problem with bisu is his pvt, while jaedong is godly in all 3 match up. So i'll have say jaedong is the slightly better player. Oh, one more thing, the reason why i think jaedong's zvz mu is so godly is because the other zerg's zvz just suck. Other zergs' zvz are getting better and jaedong's zvz win percentage is getting lower. As for bisu, hes about 50% with stork which lowers his pvp mu by quite a bit.
After reading this, I don't even know why i added stork, but it has some relevance i guess. Oh, i think bisu>stork, but not by much just to clarify in case people think i'm saying stork=bisu.
On September 04 2009 12:34 TwoToneTerran wrote: edit -- Honestly if you don't think SCR and Neo Medusa aren't TvZ maps then there's not much hope for this argument. If you want a difficult map pool for a finals win from Jaedong then his MSL is a really good pick with Loki II and Katrina, and there's no way you can refute that those are great PvZ maps.
You're insane if you think PvP isn't Bisu's best match-up. Referencing a game from 2 years ago when things were MUCH different is insane. Every single one of Bisu's recent titles comes from PvP wins, and his PvP winrate is higher because he schools protoss more regularly. Bisu drops MSLs and OSLs almost entirely to zergs lately (Zero, By.Hero, his all Zerg MSL groups which bite him in the ass), but when he gets shoved in an all PvP group, he prevails?
PvZ is his famous match up, and his PvZ is by far the best, but that doesn't make it his best match up. Jaedong's ZvT is the best (yes, better than Yarnc, Effort, or Calm), but ZvZ is still his best match up.
You know who else has a revolutionary match up that completely stomped the top players of the time? Flash, in TvP, who singlehandedly obsoleted Carriers, won his first two titles in TvP, and was the only person to put a halt onf Taek-Bang's dominance. But you would be absolutely foolish to think that TvT isn't Flash's best match up. It doesn't matter how badly he stomped Stork and Bisu and Jangbi in their primes, TvT is where he loses the least and is always the favorite. This applies to Bisu, as well.
Agree wholeheartedly with this post.
Honestly, if you don't think PvP is currently Bisu's best matchup, I have no idea where you've been. Looking at the statistics and his convincing wins against even his closest competitors, it might even be arguable that Bisu's PvP is more solid right now than Jaedong's ZvZ (maybe not stronger on a good day, but much more consistent, given Jaedong's string of random losses recently).
On September 04 2009 07:14 TwoToneTerran wrote: No, you're wrong, on two accounts. WCG was skewed by the fact that Jaedong was busy with FA. Hell, he was busy with FA during his OSL victory but that's actually a seriously important tournament to him.
And secondly, while PvZ is what Bisu made his name on, PvP is the match up he shows the most consistency in, and beats the strongest opponents in more often than not. It's also the match up he's played for 4 of his 5 titles. Bisu is strongest in his mirror because he's the strongest protoss in general -- it's the same with Flash in TvT and Jaedong in ZvZ. Bisu just caught a good break when he got to play lots of PvP finals.
Wait, didn't you just complain about someone putting their words into your posts? I didn't say Bisu is ALL about PvP -- that'd be like saying Jaedong is all about ZvZ. All four S Class players are good in EVERY match up, they just all specialize/perform the best in their mirrors. Stop acting like I said things I didn't. The analogy was that Bisu A) Hasn't won a title with disadvantageous maps and B) He's won every title except for his first MSL in his statistically strongest (and strongest in execution. You can't tell me Bisu's PvZ doesn't look painful fallible all the time with dropping out of every group stage to Zergs) matchup. You absolutely can't refute this.
Jaedong, on the other hand, has won 1 title in ZvZ, his strong match up, and has won every other title in his weakest match up (ZvP) on disadvantageous maps (Katrina and such) or in his middle matchup (zvt) and DEFINITELY on disadvantageous matchups (against Fantasy on Neo Medusa, Sin Chupung Ryeong)
It is a bit unfair to mention middle matchup (zvt) as argument for JD, Bisu did also have to overcome Flash in middle matchup (pvt) in GSL and WCG. As you mentioned Flash is a TvP monster. I don't know all the games from JD, Bisu SLs. But it is normal that the champion have to win against some strong oppentents till final, you could not always get lucky till final.
Bisu never make in OSL finals, because middle matchups, get twice 3-0 in semi Finals. But if he did win one OSL Final against P, does not really take any credit away from him. It may not looks like that dramatically, but S-Class players does not have to meet in Finals.
On September 04 2009 16:05 Avidkeystamper wrote: Dude, he specifically emphasized that PvP was Bisu's best MU in EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS POSTS. He's repeated it 10 times already! Wtf, srsly.
I was mentioning it for the sake of the person who he was replying to, guess I should have indicated that somehow.
I've always wanted one. I can finally attack ground again. I always thought I didn't get one yet b/c my registration date is too recent, but it appears that I didn't attain 6k posts yet. No wait, Grobyc has a wraith, it is my registration date TT Jeez I'm such a spammer.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.cnet.com.au/i/r/2007/games/James%20Blog/WCG-Logo-2008-Black.jpg){kind=logo}
Bisu vs ![[image loading]](http://i26.tinypic.com/291jrk8.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://cfs10.tistory.com/image/27/tistory/2009/02/23/21/41/49a29974bd713)
Luxury vs ![[image loading]](http://i26.tinypic.com/5k0i79.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i30.tinypic.com/esuxhw.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://radgeek.com/gt/2004/02/11/eye-of-sauron.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://theblackcordelias.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/stork.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img.blog.yahoo.co.kr/ybi/1/27/59/adek0322/folder/3/img_3_1064_1?1226159979.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss296/super_katusa/AngryJaedongZergwin.jpg)
