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10387 Posts
On September 02 2009 11:34 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2009 11:10 danieldrsa wrote:On September 02 2009 06:19 Roffles wrote:On September 02 2009 02:25 danieldrsa wrote:
And here comes Bisu to show again who owns
He won a proleague, is playing more consistently than JD, and deserves much more My favorite player is Kim Taek Yong, but I'm sorry to say that you must be smoking some good shit. Because Jaedong right now is playing like a scary fucking beast and is undoubtedly the best player right now. Went deep in every league, and carried his failure of a team to the finals. What more do you want? Sorry to say, but until Bisu picks up some consistency and actually makes some fucking finals, Jaedong is still the best. I will give him a pass because every other protoss failed hard this season basically. just because he won the OSL he is not the best player Far from it JD is my 3rd favorite player, only after bisu and flash, so i like him a lot He definitely owns when he plays his best also But Everytime he loses theres a "why", be it lack of rest (like proleague finals), lack of map balance (last time he lost to bisu), lack of league importance (like in WCG now) Since the end of proleague he is playing kind of erratic (must be because of FA...) People are saying he is far ahead of bisu, wich i agree in title importance, but not in current skill lvl The two are the main reason i still love this game so much Dude, every time Bisu loses, he blames map imbalance. Okay? Jaedong is by far the BEST player currently. Unlike Bisu, he's making the semis on a CONSISTENT basis. Plus he's carrying his entire team on his back. If Bisu and JD were to have swapped teams, I guarantee you JD would have the title of "PL Champion/OSL Winner". Bisu's good. But he cannot be compared to Jaedong right now. There's a reason why he is completely DOMINATING Kespa's ranking, and why everyone fears playing him.
Bisu only blamed map imba once, on Holy World (which was a graveyard)? The other times he was ASKED what he thought about the maps, and he won those games in which he was asked those questions.
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I agree that JD > Bisu.
And I'm a Bisu fan.
However, people hating him for calling map imbalances is a bit of a bad reason.
Jaedong doesnt complain about map imbalances because... the maps are pro-zergs this year.
Look at the right of Teamliquid under Final Edits: Map of the Swarm.
The maps are mostly for Zergs.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
No it is a reasonable reason.
When Bisu was owning shit up in Z favored maps (IE 1.0 Medusa. Did you know Flash and Bisu Balanced Medusa haha?) he didn't say ANYTHING. Then suddenly when Tears of the Moon came out he claimed how all protosses cannot win vs Zerg without a fast FE and 1 base play is suicide.
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On September 02 2009 15:02 scyper wrote:
I agree that JD > Bisu.
And I'm a Bisu fan.
However, people hating him for calling map imbalances is a bit of a bad reason.
Jaedong doesnt complain about map imbalances because... the maps are pro-zergs this year.
Look at the right of Teamliquid under Final Edits: Map of the Swarm.
The maps are mostly for Zergs.
Um...Jaedong didn't complain for like the 2 years before the maps became pro-zerg.
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10387 Posts
Isn't 1 base play pretty bad in PvZ though? They are good once in a while to surprise your opponent but I can't imagine winning consistently with 1 base play in PvZ. In fact, nowadays any 1 base play in all non-mirror MUs put you at a severe disadvantage when it doesn't work. Bisu is right about Protoss would be dead without FE, even if it was an excuse for his loss.
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On September 02 2009 11:34 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2009 11:10 danieldrsa wrote:On September 02 2009 06:19 Roffles wrote:On September 02 2009 02:25 danieldrsa wrote:
And here comes Bisu to show again who owns
He won a proleague, is playing more consistently than JD, and deserves much more My favorite player is Kim Taek Yong, but I'm sorry to say that you must be smoking some good shit. Because Jaedong right now is playing like a scary fucking beast and is undoubtedly the best player right now. Went deep in every league, and carried his failure of a team to the finals. What more do you want? Sorry to say, but until Bisu picks up some consistency and actually makes some fucking finals, Jaedong is still the best. I will give him a pass because every other protoss failed hard this season basically. just because he won the OSL he is not the best player Far from it JD is my 3rd favorite player, only after bisu and flash, so i like him a lot He definitely owns when he plays his best also But Everytime he loses theres a "why", be it lack of rest (like proleague finals), lack of map balance (last time he lost to bisu), lack of league importance (like in WCG now) Since the end of proleague he is playing kind of erratic (must be because of FA...) People are saying he is far ahead of bisu, wich i agree in title importance, but not in current skill lvl The two are the main reason i still love this game so much Dude, every time Bisu loses, he blames map imbalance. Okay? Jaedong is by far the BEST player currently. Unlike Bisu, he's making the semis on a CONSISTENT basis. Plus he's carrying his entire team on his back. If Bisu and JD were to have swapped teams, I guarantee you JD would have the title of "PL Champion/OSL Winner". Bisu's good. But he cannot be compared to Jaedong right now. There's a reason why he is completely DOMINATING Kespa's ranking, and why everyone fears playing him.
lololololol
Such a blind antifan.
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On September 02 2009 15:22 ArvickHero wrote:
Isn't 1 base play pretty bad in PvZ though? They are good once in a while to surprise your opponent but I can't imagine winning consistently with 1 base play in PvZ. In fact, nowadays any 1 base play in all non-mirror MUs put you at a severe disadvantage when it doesn't work. Bisu is right about Protoss would be dead without FE, even if it was an excuse for his loss.
No, it's not the 1 base play, it's the lack of minerals on ToTm only and not other maps. Gee, look at Stork's interviews about ToTm. HUGE DIFFERENCE.
Also, being right is not the same as not complaining, if he is right.
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On September 02 2009 15:10 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2009 15:02 scyper wrote:
I agree that JD > Bisu.
And I'm a Bisu fan.
However, people hating him for calling map imbalances is a bit of a bad reason.
Jaedong doesnt complain about map imbalances because... the maps are pro-zergs this year.
Look at the right of Teamliquid under Final Edits: Map of the Swarm.
The maps are mostly for Zergs. Um...Jaedong didn't complain for like the 2 years before the maps became pro-zerg.
I think the whining about the maps is exagerated. Like the OSL maps, Return of the king and Byzantium, still are bad for Z, yet Zergs win on it, most of the times with strange builds or superior play.
On destination still zergs have the least wins, on HBR the stats are really balanced, on Outisder Zergs have the best stats but that's some of the best maps around, you cannot complain about that, on Colosseum they still are the weakest, on Neo Medusa Terrans have the msot wins, Toss and Zerg are tied. OK G'sG is zerg favoured, agreed, but Ts still have a winning percentage agianst Z.
Sounds like a shitty zerg-paradise mappool, right? And give me a break with Tears of the moon and the other maps which were used like 10 times till now.
Zergs are in a good shape, and the maps are quite good for them, but ppl, stop making comments which suggest Zergs won the SLs only because of the maps. (+dont forget Gom TVT finals, even if nobody gave a crap about it + WCG PvP)
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On September 02 2009 15:31 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2009 15:22 ArvickHero wrote:
Isn't 1 base play pretty bad in PvZ though? They are good once in a while to surprise your opponent but I can't imagine winning consistently with 1 base play in PvZ. In fact, nowadays any 1 base play in all non-mirror MUs put you at a severe disadvantage when it doesn't work. Bisu is right about Protoss would be dead without FE, even if it was an excuse for his loss. No, it's not the 1 base play, it's the lack of minerals on ToTm only and not other maps. Gee, look at Stork's interviews about ToTm. HUGE DIFFERENCE. Also, being right is not the same as not complaining, if he is right.
You can't just read into progamer answers without context. Coliseum has 6 minerals in the natural, and protoss FE on it all the time. TOTM had 8 minerals in the natural, yet protoss are afraid to FE on it.
Why? Because Stork is discussing "relative", not "absolute". He's just pointing out that the position is possible to deal with ONLY if there were enough mineral patches to make it worth it. Coliseum is worth it because the expansion is super-safe. TOTM is not because it's super dangerous.
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FE is obviously better but 1 base play is not impossible on ToTM merely because it's one base, but because of the low econ in the main.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On September 02 2009 15:27 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2009 11:34 Roffles wrote:On September 02 2009 11:10 danieldrsa wrote:On September 02 2009 06:19 Roffles wrote:On September 02 2009 02:25 danieldrsa wrote:
And here comes Bisu to show again who owns
He won a proleague, is playing more consistently than JD, and deserves much more My favorite player is Kim Taek Yong, but I'm sorry to say that you must be smoking some good shit. Because Jaedong right now is playing like a scary fucking beast and is undoubtedly the best player right now. Went deep in every league, and carried his failure of a team to the finals. What more do you want? Sorry to say, but until Bisu picks up some consistency and actually makes some fucking finals, Jaedong is still the best. I will give him a pass because every other protoss failed hard this season basically. just because he won the OSL he is not the best player Far from it JD is my 3rd favorite player, only after bisu and flash, so i like him a lot He definitely owns when he plays his best also But Everytime he loses theres a "why", be it lack of rest (like proleague finals), lack of map balance (last time he lost to bisu), lack of league importance (like in WCG now) Since the end of proleague he is playing kind of erratic (must be because of FA...) People are saying he is far ahead of bisu, wich i agree in title importance, but not in current skill lvl The two are the main reason i still love this game so much Dude, every time Bisu loses, he blames map imbalance. Okay? Jaedong is by far the BEST player currently. Unlike Bisu, he's making the semis on a CONSISTENT basis. Plus he's carrying his entire team on his back. If Bisu and JD were to have swapped teams, I guarantee you JD would have the title of "PL Champion/OSL Winner". Bisu's good. But he cannot be compared to Jaedong right now. There's a reason why he is completely DOMINATING Kespa's ranking, and why everyone fears playing him. lololololol Such a blind antifan.
I'm pretty sure Jaedong has accomplished much more than Bisu over the last few seasons. A quick glance at TLPD will tell you this. Blind anti-fan? Someone clearly hasn't been reading my WCG OPs. It's quite clear that I favor Protoss over other races.
But when it comes down to who's been more dominant lately, there is no question at all that Jaedong has been THE most consistent and most dominant lately. Back to back OSLs, and winning even when Protosses were raping everything alive is nothing to scoff at.
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On September 02 2009 23:38 Avidkeystamper wrote:
FE is obviously better but 1 base play is not impossible on ToTM merely because it's one base, but because of the low econ in the main.
TOTM has 8 minerals in the main, and 8 in the natural. Protoss players have managed to beat zergs on maps with 8/7 and 9/6 patches in the main and natural respectively. Again, I don't see how you can interpret Stork's words literally.
You can make better arguments that Monty Hall and Plasma are viable for zergs than TOTM for protosses.
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On September 03 2009 02:00 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2009 15:27 BanZu wrote:On September 02 2009 11:34 Roffles wrote:On September 02 2009 11:10 danieldrsa wrote:On September 02 2009 06:19 Roffles wrote:On September 02 2009 02:25 danieldrsa wrote:
And here comes Bisu to show again who owns
He won a proleague, is playing more consistently than JD, and deserves much more My favorite player is Kim Taek Yong, but I'm sorry to say that you must be smoking some good shit. Because Jaedong right now is playing like a scary fucking beast and is undoubtedly the best player right now. Went deep in every league, and carried his failure of a team to the finals. What more do you want? Sorry to say, but until Bisu picks up some consistency and actually makes some fucking finals, Jaedong is still the best. I will give him a pass because every other protoss failed hard this season basically. just because he won the OSL he is not the best player Far from it JD is my 3rd favorite player, only after bisu and flash, so i like him a lot He definitely owns when he plays his best also But Everytime he loses theres a "why", be it lack of rest (like proleague finals), lack of map balance (last time he lost to bisu), lack of league importance (like in WCG now) Since the end of proleague he is playing kind of erratic (must be because of FA...) People are saying he is far ahead of bisu, wich i agree in title importance, but not in current skill lvl The two are the main reason i still love this game so much Dude, every time Bisu loses, he blames map imbalance. Okay? Jaedong is by far the BEST player currently. Unlike Bisu, he's making the semis on a CONSISTENT basis. Plus he's carrying his entire team on his back. If Bisu and JD were to have swapped teams, I guarantee you JD would have the title of "PL Champion/OSL Winner". Bisu's good. But he cannot be compared to Jaedong right now. There's a reason why he is completely DOMINATING Kespa's ranking, and why everyone fears playing him. lololololol Such a blind antifan. I'm pretty sure Jaedong has accomplished much more than Bisu over the last few seasons. A quick glance at TLPD will tell you this. Blind anti-fan? Someone clearly hasn't been reading my WCG OPs. It's quite clear that I favor Protoss over other races. But when it comes down to who's been more dominant lately, there is no question at all that Jaedong has been THE most consistent and most dominant lately. Back to back OSLs, and winning even when Protosses were raping everything alive is nothing to scoff at.
I was talking of consistency in last games (+- 30), not in overall career
Aside from OSL JD didnt done very well lately (which is not a bad thing)
Hear me, i like JD, but Proleague is the championship where Bisu was key in various victories (including over JD), where JD was his team. Bisu (and SKT) won, JD (he is his team) lost.
The problem of complaints is not of JD but his fans.
Always he loses is for something, hes never outplayed. The "tireness" argument, the map imbalances and other things.
And that argument of bisu=arrogant, JD=nice is ridiculous also.
JD>Bisu in titles. I like him for his acomplishments.
In current skill level? never. Its hype for the golden mouse.
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On September 03 2009 03:01 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2009 23:38 Avidkeystamper wrote:
FE is obviously better but 1 base play is not impossible on ToTM merely because it's one base, but because of the low econ in the main. TOTM has 8 minerals in the main, and 8 in the natural. Protoss players have managed to beat zergs on maps with 8/7 and 9/6 patches in the main and natural respectively. Again, I don't see how you can interpret Stork's words literally. You can make better arguments that Monty Hall and Plasma are viable for zergs than TOTM for protosses.
Nono, I mean the viability of one base tech changes a lot depending on how many minerals in the main only. Bisu was not right in saying that one base tech was impossible vs zergs, but he was in the context of the interview when he talks about playing on Totm, with its lack of minerals. There's a reason Byzantium 1's PvZ balance shifted significantly with the removal of a mineral patch in the main and expo and back again after the patches were edited back in.
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On September 02 2009 07:21 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2009 07:13 andrewlt wrote:
Haha, that's a nice theory. Protoss got eliminated so early in starleagues that Jaedong, Fantasy and co are rusty vP. Sorry, but that's just a stupid theory. Why the HELL would they jeopardize their chances of winning a starleague just so others could be rusty vs protoss? -_-
I'm not saying they intentionally lost those matches.
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On August 30 2009 07:53 tree.hugger wrote:Wait... Protoss sometimes play other protoss....? I... I had forgotten...  Bisu > Stork Jaedong > LuxuryHere's a better picture for Jaedong
Lol thats perfect.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On September 03 2009 05:58 danieldrsa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2009 02:00 Roffles wrote:On September 02 2009 15:27 BanZu wrote:On September 02 2009 11:34 Roffles wrote:On September 02 2009 11:10 danieldrsa wrote:On September 02 2009 06:19 Roffles wrote:On September 02 2009 02:25 danieldrsa wrote:
And here comes Bisu to show again who owns
He won a proleague, is playing more consistently than JD, and deserves much more My favorite player is Kim Taek Yong, but I'm sorry to say that you must be smoking some good shit. Because Jaedong right now is playing like a scary fucking beast and is undoubtedly the best player right now. Went deep in every league, and carried his failure of a team to the finals. What more do you want? Sorry to say, but until Bisu picks up some consistency and actually makes some fucking finals, Jaedong is still the best. I will give him a pass because every other protoss failed hard this season basically. just because he won the OSL he is not the best player Far from it JD is my 3rd favorite player, only after bisu and flash, so i like him a lot He definitely owns when he plays his best also But Everytime he loses theres a "why", be it lack of rest (like proleague finals), lack of map balance (last time he lost to bisu), lack of league importance (like in WCG now) Since the end of proleague he is playing kind of erratic (must be because of FA...) People are saying he is far ahead of bisu, wich i agree in title importance, but not in current skill lvl The two are the main reason i still love this game so much Dude, every time Bisu loses, he blames map imbalance. Okay? Jaedong is by far the BEST player currently. Unlike Bisu, he's making the semis on a CONSISTENT basis. Plus he's carrying his entire team on his back. If Bisu and JD were to have swapped teams, I guarantee you JD would have the title of "PL Champion/OSL Winner". Bisu's good. But he cannot be compared to Jaedong right now. There's a reason why he is completely DOMINATING Kespa's ranking, and why everyone fears playing him. lololololol Such a blind antifan. I'm pretty sure Jaedong has accomplished much more than Bisu over the last few seasons. A quick glance at TLPD will tell you this. Blind anti-fan? Someone clearly hasn't been reading my WCG OPs. It's quite clear that I favor Protoss over other races. But when it comes down to who's been more dominant lately, there is no question at all that Jaedong has been THE most consistent and most dominant lately. Back to back OSLs, and winning even when Protosses were raping everything alive is nothing to scoff at. I was talking of consistency in last games (+- 30), not in overall career Aside from OSL JD didnt done very well lately (which is not a bad thing) Hear me, i like JD, but Proleague is the championship where Bisu was key in various victories (including over JD), where JD was his team. Bisu (and SKT) won, JD (he is his team) lost. The problem of complaints is not of JD but his fans. Always he loses is for something, hes never outplayed. The "tireness" argument, the map imbalances and other things. And that argument of bisu=arrogant, JD=nice is ridiculous also. JD>Bisu in titles. I like him for his acomplishments. In current skill level? never. Its hype for the golden mouse.
Dude, you've gotta be fucking shitting me right? Jaedong outside of OSL didn't do well? I quit arguing with you. You basically countered with an argument that parallels, "Jaedong's a fucking skilless newbie, who's all hype". Plus, JD outside of OSL didn't do really well? That's like saying "JulyZerg isn't fat".
Put away the fucking homer glasses, because if you've actually watched his recent games, there's no way you can dismiss Jaedong as "Not on par skill-wise with Bisu" or "Isn't doing well outside of OSL"
Hey buddy, JD made it further than Bisu in every single league. Watch the games. I admire your Protoss fanboyism, but to blindly argue that Bisu is more skilled than Jaedong and is more consistent lately is just absolutely fucking stupid.
Jaedong buddy is NOT all hype. For all we know, he's actually ahead H2H against Bisu and has taken the only series match they've played against each other (Even if it didn't really matter). The guy has absolutely stunning mechanics, plays as aggressive as July, and has top notch micro and multitask. To say his current skill level is not as high as Bisu's is just plain stupid.
I admire you sticking up for Protoss/Bisu, but when you argue blindly, that's just stupid.
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no relax...he just tried to point out that jaedong was a little inconsistent this season (losing to some players he shouldnt have lost to remember that? admit it) compared to last season for instance. bisu on the other hand has been a little more consistent this season (though u could argue otherwise cuz he lost to gogo and iris and zero, so he hasnt been completely consistent either...). and i have to agree with that to a certain extent (i mean bisu had like 79% winning rate in the proleague games and was just 1 game short of matching jaedong on the number of wins, you have to admit he did better in the proleague as an individual player), but jaedong still deserves credit for winning what really matters to him. i guess something similar applies to flash and fantasy, fantasy is just better at starleagues. some people have it in them more than others i guess, and though bisu is one of the ones who also has it in him, he just needs to get further in the leagues more consistently. basically, both players have consistent and inconsistent moments, its all part of the game and nothing to be ashamed of.
but please...bisu and jaedong are the best of their races right now. why the fuck are you people arguing over whos better? no offense but jesus...stop it...
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Everytime Jaedong ever loses a game it's 'a little inconsistent' because he should've beat them. Jaedong, by all rights, SHOULD beat everyone in the game everytime because he's the mechanically superior player, but Maps, sniperific strats, surprise showings, and more importantly practice time deem otherwise.
This was not Bisu's season. Jaedong went further in both OSL and MSL, and took one of the titles, all on the back of a lot of personal struggle in FA and proleague duties. It may very have well been the maps/trends, but this was Jaedong's season.
On September 02 2009 14:48 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2009 11:34 Roffles wrote:On September 02 2009 11:10 danieldrsa wrote:On September 02 2009 06:19 Roffles wrote:On September 02 2009 02:25 danieldrsa wrote:
And here comes Bisu to show again who owns
He won a proleague, is playing more consistently than JD, and deserves much more My favorite player is Kim Taek Yong, but I'm sorry to say that you must be smoking some good shit. Because Jaedong right now is playing like a scary fucking beast and is undoubtedly the best player right now. Went deep in every league, and carried his failure of a team to the finals. What more do you want? Sorry to say, but until Bisu picks up some consistency and actually makes some fucking finals, Jaedong is still the best. I will give him a pass because every other protoss failed hard this season basically. just because he won the OSL he is not the best player Far from it JD is my 3rd favorite player, only after bisu and flash, so i like him a lot He definitely owns when he plays his best also But Everytime he loses theres a "why", be it lack of rest (like proleague finals), lack of map balance (last time he lost to bisu), lack of league importance (like in WCG now) Since the end of proleague he is playing kind of erratic (must be because of FA...) People are saying he is far ahead of bisu, wich i agree in title importance, but not in current skill lvl The two are the main reason i still love this game so much Dude, every time Bisu loses, he blames map imbalance. Okay? Jaedong is by far the BEST player currently. Unlike Bisu, he's making the semis on a CONSISTENT basis. Plus he's carrying his entire team on his back. If Bisu and JD were to have swapped teams, I guarantee you JD would have the title of "PL Champion/OSL Winner". Bisu's good. But he cannot be compared to Jaedong right now. There's a reason why he is completely DOMINATING Kespa's ranking, and why everyone fears playing him. Bisu only blamed map imba once, on Holy World (which was a graveyard)? The other times he was ASKED what he thought about the maps, and he won those games in which he was asked those questions.
When asked about Neo-Medusa, didn't Bisu specifically say that he thought the Proxy Hatch strategy was imbalance, after losing to by.great over it?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://radgeek.com/gt/2004/02/11/eye-of-sauron.jpg)
