[WCG] Korean Qualifiers - Final Day - Page 33

On September 03 2009 02:00 Roffles wrote:

I'm pretty sure Jaedong has accomplished much more than Bisu over the last few seasons. A quick glance at TLPD will tell you this. Blind anti-fan? Someone clearly hasn't been reading my WCG OPs. It's quite clear that I favor Protoss over other races.

But when it comes down to who's been more dominant lately, there is no question at all that Jaedong has been THE most consistent and most dominant lately. Back to back OSLs, and winning even when Protosses were raping everything alive is nothing to scoff at.

Dude, every time Bisu loses, he blames map imbalance. Okay?

On September 03 2009 16:31 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Bisu's complaints about map imbalance are fair, both from him and to pick on him for. It's not like he's lying when he says ToTM is imbalanced, but it's hard not to call him out on blaming such things when the other two top players made their names and some of their greatest matches on horribly imba maps. Flash on Katrina, and to a lesser extent, Jaedong on Chupung-Ryeong.

On September 03 2009 20:27 TwoToneTerran wrote:
If you take out Bisu's games, it becomes nearly 50-50 PvZ. So yeah without Bisu it doesn't have its "protoss" favored charm. but he didn't really 'balance' it so much as imbalance it in favor of protoss.

Nowhere near the same rapefest that was Katrina PvT. with or without Flash, which turns it from an already sickeningly bad 25-9 PvT to an almost impossible 24-3 (74% to 84%, ick), or Sin Chupung-Ryeong TvZ without Jaedong, which goes from a slightly bearable 18-12(60% in favor of Terran) to 16-5(76%, blech).

But the real point I'm trying to make here is, when we hear Bisu talk about playing on hard maps, he, fairly, points out that the maps are imbalanced and it's not fair for whatever reason. This isn't bad on its own, but almost no other gamer really talks about how hard maps are (Flash), and the only time in recent memory anyone but Bisu in the top 4 (flash/jaeodng/bisu/fantasy) talked about map imbalance was Jaedong, when he said Sin-Chupung-Ryeong wasn't that hard for zerg, despite the then near 70% loss rate that he brought up to a slightly more manageable number.

There's nothing wrong about pointing out map imbalance in and of itself, but when you're constantly compared to two guys who made their careers laughing at both Map and Race imba (Katrina and PvT, SCR and TvZ), it looks a little whiny.

Medusa is close to an example of that but it doesn't really count if you only take an even ratio and make it better for Protoss, as opposed to maps that, even with your help, are still *heavily* imba against your race. Not saying Jaedong and Flash are immune to map imba (lolol Arena MSL), just that they come off as way whiny about it and triumph more over it (Miracle that Jaedong made it to Arena MSL finals. Who 3-0's Hwasin, ZvT, on Collo, Othello, and Athena? Madness. Let's not even talk about Flash's Protoss killing OSL/GSI run, which was more a quadruple victory over Katrina than Taek-Bang).


Bisu's the best Protoss that ever lived, but as far as map dominating street cred goes, Taekdusa isn't really a triumph over imbalance, like Flashtrina and...Sin-Chupung...Jaedong? THESE NAMES ARE AWFUL

On September 03 2009 20:50 TwoToneTerran wrote:
19-2, both losses to Flash. But it wasn't really cripplingly imba for zerg and the only title he won off of it was Gom Season 1 I think, right?

edit: oh right, his MSL run. Yeah his MSL run was actually pretty hard, mapwise. He beat Kal on Katrina and Loki II, pretty hard ZvP maps.

On September 03 2009 20:27 TwoToneTerran wrote:
If you take out Bisu's games, it becomes nearly 50-50 PvZ. So yeah without Bisu it doesn't have its "protoss" favored charm. but he didn't really 'balance' it so much as imbalance it in favor of protoss.

Nowhere near the same rapefest that was Katrina PvT. with or without Flash, which turns it from an already sickeningly bad 25-9 PvT to an almost impossible 24-3 (74% to 84%, ick), or Sin Chupung-Ryeong TvZ without Jaedong, which goes from a slightly bearable 18-12(60% in favor of Terran) to 16-5(76%, blech). These guys both won titles on those maps, too (Flash GSI and Bacchus, Jaedong Batoo).

But the real point I'm trying to make here is, when we hear Bisu talk about playing on hard maps, he, fairly, points out that the maps are imbalanced and it's not fair for whatever reason. This isn't bad on its own, but almost no other gamer really talks about how hard maps are (Flash), and the only time in recent memory anyone but Bisu in the top 4 (flash/jaeodng/bisu/fantasy) talked about map imbalance was Jaedong, when he said Sin-Chupung-Ryeong wasn't that hard for zerg, despite the then near 70% loss rate that he brought up to a slightly more manageable number.

There's nothing wrong about pointing out map imbalance in and of itself, but when you're constantly compared to two guys who made their careers laughing at both Map and Race imba (Katrina and PvT, SCR and TvZ), it looks a little whiny.

Medusa is close to an example of that but it doesn't really count if you only take an even ratio and make it better for Protoss, as opposed to maps that, even with your help, are still *heavily* imba against your race. Not saying Jaedong and Flash are immune to map imba (lolol Arena MSL), just that they don't come off as whiny in any way shape or form about it and instead triumph more over it (Miracle that Jaedong made it to Arena MSL finals. Who 3-0's Hwasin, ZvT, on Collo, Othello, and Athena? Madness, not to mention winning Batoo on SCR. Let's not even talk about Flash's Protoss killing OSL/GSI run, which was more a quadruple victory over Katrina than Taek-Bang).


Bisu's the best Protoss that ever lived, but as far as map dominating street cred goes, Taekdusa isn't really a triumph over imbalance, like Flashtrina and...Sin-Chupung...Jaedong? THESE NAMES ARE AWFUL

On September 03 2009 12:09 Roffles wrote:

Dude, you've gotta be fucking shitting me right? Jaedong outside of OSL didn't do well? I quit arguing with you. You basically countered with an argument that parallels, "Jaedong's a fucking skilless newbie, who's all hype". Plus, JD outside of OSL didn't do really well? That's like saying "JulyZerg isn't fat".

Put away the fucking homer glasses, because if you've actually watched his recent games, there's no way you can dismiss Jaedong as "Not on par skill-wise with Bisu" or "Isn't doing well outside of OSL"

Hey buddy, JD made it further than Bisu in every single league. Watch the games. I admire your Protoss fanboyism, but to blindly argue that Bisu is more skilled than Jaedong and is more consistent lately is just absolutely fucking stupid.

Jaedong buddy is NOT all hype. For all we know, he's actually ahead H2H against Bisu and has taken the only series match they've played against each other (Even if it didn't really matter). The guy has absolutely stunning mechanics, plays as aggressive as July, and has top notch micro and multitask. To say his current skill level is not as high as Bisu's is just plain stupid.

I admire you sticking up for Protoss/Bisu, but when you argue blindly, that's just stupid.

On September 04 2009 03:16 neotoss wrote:
According TLPD from 2008-08 to 2009-08

JD : 121 wins - 58 losses (67.60%)
Bisu: 117 wins - 43 losses (73.13%)

I don't think Bisu is inconsistent at all. JD has more titles and win 2OSLs in a row. Bisu just does not do well in OSL. Apart from that he does win one MSL and GSL in the last 12 month. In PL Bisu does more consistent last year, but in individual League is JD better overall.
They are both incrediable good/consistent player.

On September 03 2009 20:59 TwoToneTerran wrote:
You know I never thought of his Ever run as really challenging, mapwise, but there you go. Apparently Katrina really likes Jaedong.

Only emphasizes my point.

Oddly, every title that Bisu has aside from his obviously monstrous 3-0 of Savior (On maps that weren't bad for either ZvP or PvZ overall) are all PvPs, his strongest match up(and obviously lacking in overcoming map imbalance). Not to take anything away from his incredible 3 MSLs, GSL, and WCG title, I just wonder how big of a deal would Jaedong be if, after he beat Stork in the OSL, all his follow up titles (2 osls, 1 gsl, 1 msl, 1 WCG) were all ZvZs?

On September 04 2009 07:14 TwoToneTerran wrote:
No, you're wrong, on two accounts. WCG was skewed by the fact that Jaedong was busy with FA. Hell, he was busy with FA during his OSL victory but that's actually a seriously important tournament to him.

On September 04 2009 10:58 danieldrsa wrote:


Isnt wondeful what happened?
Bisu=Proleague
Flash=GOM
JD=OSL
Hyuk=STX Cup

I loved that

On September 04 2009 07:14 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Jaedong, on the other hand, has won 1 title in ZvZ, his strong match up, and has won every other title in his weakest match up (ZvP) on disadvantageous maps (Katrina and such) or in his middle matchup (zvt) and DEFINITELY on disadvantageous matchups (against Fantasy on Neo Medusa, Sin Chupung Ryeong)

On September 03 2009 05:58 danieldrsa wrote:
JD>Bisu in titles. I like him for his acomplishments.
In current skill level? never. Its hype for the golden mouse.

On September 04 2009 11:29 Ver wrote:


Let's not get carried away here. Jaedong has never conquered map imbalance. Neo Medusa favors Zerg (easy muta harass, easy backstabs via the backdoor, wide open middle, mech sucks because expos are too spread out and open middle). Sin Chupung-Ryeong is quite balanced (8 mineral patch main, terrain in various places favors both races, nice for muta harass). Blindly looking at TLPD kinda kills one's argument. To be fair, Bisu never conquered disadvantageous maps either. He's just a monster at fully utilizing already advantageous maps. The only modern player to truly have done so is Flash (Katrina and Medusa), and before him it was Savior (RT, Longinus).

Bisu's PvZ is also undisputably his best matchup overall. Just because his PvP has a higher % doesn't mean anything. He and Stork have always been neck and neck when they were both in form (Gom S2 MSL finals 3-2 Bisu, Ever 07 OSL 3-0 Stork, Incruit OSL 2-1 Stork, WCG 09 kor finals 2-0 Bisu), a clear indication that he never truly dominated it.

On the other hand, beating Bonjwa Savior 3-0 and singlehandedly sending the most dominant vP player ever into a never ending spiral is a feat probably only July can equal (beating invincible TvZ oov in 3 different series). Bisu's only PvZ competitor is rA, and the former is clearly much better, especially considering their performances vs Savior.

TLPD unfortunately only shows so much.