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After going 10/15 in all my PvTs, I got bored with it and tried fast nexus build. I'm feeling pretty ok with it. Most of the Terrans would try to rush my base with mines and pick off some probes with two vultures. I usually manage to minimize the damage because I have 2 dragoons already, then wait for obs to clean the mines outside my natural. The problem is that I don't know what to do after I go 13 nexus. I manage to mass up and keep my minerals low by teching and upgrades. I know PvT is one big waiting game and I shouldn't suicide my units to his natural and wait for him to push out. Now the problem is that I don't get the purpose of going 13 nexus if I will just let him catch up on me unit, base, and economy wise.
I have two replays and I pretty much did the same thing.
Replay 1:
RepDepot Link
FiRe Link
So this first game, I go 13 nexus and he goes 2 factory (the scvs he had on gas was a give away). I manage to deflect his vultures and later minimize his dropship play. I think the first encounter was pretty bad for me, it wasn't a good exchange.
Replay 2:
RepDepot Link
FiRe Link
In this game, I got killed good by dropship play. It's not like I can just attack his natural because the two bridges to the natural makes it extra hard.
So, after going 13 nexus, what should I do after? Go 2 base Arbiters to further capitalize the on the tech and eco advantage? And what is the difference between 12, 13, and 14 nexus?
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Game 1:
Your build for 14 nex is wrong. It's supposed to be pylon->nex->gate->gas->pylon->gate but you did pylon->nex->gate->gas->gate->pylon leaving you with alot less probes. The whole point of fast nex build is to get as many probes working at the expansion as fast as possible. You also need to spread the probes while you maynard them so they start on different patches when they arrive at the nat.
Keep your first dragoons at a good position in the nat unless you are 100% sure that he has gone tank first. If he opens vultures first you only need to defend well with the first few dragoons and you will be ahead.
Your robotics was way late which made his mines deny you from map control for a long while. Also you didn't have the slightest clue as to what he was doing. If you had added the robo after when on 2 gates instead of 4 you would have been better off.
Scout with observers and probes. His top left ninja CC made the game so much easier for him.
Work on probe production. Your economy wasn't good enough for a 14 nex build because you neglected constantly making probes.
What really lost you the game though was that you stayed on 2 base vs his 2 base (or 3 base for a while). You need to work on allways one upping the terran in bases. If you can't stay one base ahead you need to be aggressive with harassment or big attacks.
You also need to tech alot faster to either arbs or carriers (arbs prefferably on python). Only zealots and dragoons at the 18 minute mark does not cut it vs a well upgraded terran ball. Storm and arbiters recommended.
Game 2:
Again with the opening build. You get one or two probes less with this build and your first combat units are very late. If he had 2 rax scv pushed you you would die instantly.
Robo was earlier this game which made a big difference. But you lost your first observer without seing much. Even so you saw his dropship going out so you should have positioned your goons at you mineral line instead of the edge, he went around you and did quite alot of damage.
Again your third is extremely late. To compensate for that you double expanded 3rd and 4th at the same time. This doesn't work against a terran with good timing pushes. He will run you over with a 6 fac timing and there is no way you will have units enough to stop it. You need your economy to grow slightly faster than his while being safe vs all his possible attacks. This is why scouting and adapting is so important. Once you get familiar with a build you will start learning how to adapt properly at a very fast rate.
When you saw he had more than one dropship you should have backed off with your goons outside his nat and used them spread on the map for sniping the drops. His strat is really bad if you have good defense because if he were to die like 4 tanks in a drop without dealing damage you can just expand freely and macro up.
You were too eager to end the game and a-moved your units into his nat and that was not a good move obviously. At this time you should have been focusing on adding gateways and getting your arbiter out. Your tech was very slow this game too.
You should start practising allways staying one base ahead of the terran. That playstyle is safer and relies more on getting a good standard economic set of plays. If you like 2 base plays you could do a dt drop into 2 base fast arbiters. That is quite good on destination but relies heavily on multitasking and good defenses since your observers will be very late.
One thing that I forgot to add int he first game is that when you add cannons around your mins on both areas that early you're giving the game away to him. Those mins should be either an earlier third or more units to be aggressive with. You need to learn how to tighten your defenses using only goons. Once you feel safe doing that you will get a better feel of when you can take map control and you'll learn when you can safely take your third base.
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the whole point of going such an early nexus, is that u beast macro and go for a contain with ur far larger army. if u let him mine u in, and he gets more bases than u, u mite as well rush
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On May 29 2009 12:29 da_head wrote:
the whole point of going such an early nexus, is that u beast macro and go for a contain with ur far larger army. if u let him mine u in, and he gets more bases than u, u mite as well rush
Wrong. Massing units and containing him on a two base vs his two base is the worst possible solution. The safest way would be to get a very fast third once you see his nat in place and focus on scouting and defending. You will be far enough ahead that he can't do anything.
Massing units can work but if you only use them to contain then you are giving away your advantage. You need to attack or harass using them.
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Wow thanks for the insights. I guess I'm not that much familiar with nexus first.
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On May 29 2009 12:36 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 12:29 da_head wrote:
the whole point of going such an early nexus, is that u beast macro and go for a contain with ur far larger army. if u let him mine u in, and he gets more bases than u, u mite as well rush Wrong. Massing units and containing him on a two base vs his two base is the worst possible solution. The safest way would be to get a very fast third once you see his nat in place and focus on scouting and defending. You will be far enough ahead that he can't do anything. Massing units can work but if you only use them to contain then you are giving away your advantage. You need to attack or harass using them.
I think he means pseudo-contain the terran with a larger unit count (after deflecting harass attempts) and expo youself, just riding the advantage until the end.
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On May 29 2009 12:36 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 12:29 da_head wrote:
the whole point of going such an early nexus, is that u beast macro and go for a contain with ur far larger army. if u let him mine u in, and he gets more bases than u, u mite as well rush Wrong. Massing units and containing him on a two base vs his two base is the worst possible solution. The safest way would be to get a very fast third once you see his nat in place and focus on scouting and defending. You will be far enough ahead that he can't do anything. Massing units can work but if you only use them to contain then you are giving away your advantage. You need to attack or harass using them.
Uhm, so I just need to keep 1 base ahead, then starve him out?
And how do you harass him? Because he can just siege on high ground and this will basically be suicide. Unless of course you have like 2 to 3 times more his units then you can run over his natural and his main...
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also try to make some pylon block to deny his vulture harass and minimize the area
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Hm I always do the BO like this:
8 pylon
13 nexus
13 gate
14 gas
15 core
15 gate
15 pylon
15 zealot
Don't have to make a 2nd pylon til after your first 2 goons start, and as far as I can tell it doesn't have any disadvantages.. you cut probes a lot in any nex first pvt opening
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just a question.. what if T FD rushes?
(i haven't done this build before but) do you have more goons when T does their timed attack or what? lol
+ Show Spoiler +sorry if i'm confusing >.<
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On May 29 2009 19:33 SilentNoodle wrote:just a question.. what if T FD rushes? (i haven't done this build before but) do you have more goons when T does their timed attack or what? lol + Show Spoiler +sorry if i'm confusing >.<
its going to be a bit hard to defend a FD because you dont have an observer, and mines can do a hella lot of damage.
But i think you will get enough goons to defend the push still
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Guys, the second question in the op hasn't been answered..
I don't really get the difference between 12, 13, and 14 nexus. But I think it will affect the gateway timing..
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On May 29 2009 19:58 SilverSkyLark wrote:Guys, the second question in the op hasn't been answered.. I don't really get the difference between 12, 13, and 14 nexus. But I think it will affect the gateway timing..
I think you need to test it out for yourself. measure timings
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And I think I need to watch BeSts PvT to learn how to do 2 base arbiters...
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Did not watch the reps, but I can give some general pointers on 13nex. First of all, don`t listen to starbrift unless you are absolutely sure the other guy will Siege\expo and scouts late. The optimum build is cutting a few probes here and there since you will go into mass probe mode fast enough later due to 2nexus anyway, going non stop probes the way he suggest will get you killed vs so many things the T can do.
Here is how I usually do my 13nex.
8pyl
13nex (then scout, no point scouting earlier since you are committing anyway)
14gate
15gas
17core
17gate
(you will be supply blocked here for some time 5-10sec before you nex finishes)
17zeal (and resume probe production in both nexuses)
21 pylon.
slight probecut at 22 if you suspects he will be offensive so you can start 2 goons once your core finishes.
If you feel confident that he will not rush or on maps with ramps like andromeda you can continue probes and make range and only make 1 goon at first when the core finishes.
This build will give you pretty much the maximum amount of unit as quickly as possible after the 13nex and should leave you safe (with proper micro) vs FD builds (the strong FD build is a bitch defending vs tho, but still possible I think, iv only faced it vs forgg and casy and got buttraped, but I think that has a lot to do with their superior micro) and have a good chance of deflecting 2fact.
As for what you do after the fast nex is up to your personal preference and what the Terran is doing. As you suggested 2base arbiter is a viable follow up, so is a quick 3rd, reaverdrop, dt drop etc Of course vs 2fact I would do a quick robo and add more gates while vs siege expo I would either do a type of drop or take a quick 3rd (and maybe 4th)
A very important thing when playing the 13nex is keeping your scouting probe alive so you can get info of what and when the T is moving out with. Just hovering around his natural will give you good time to react to an scv\marine rush and will reveal if he went vult before tank. Also if you can keep it alive after this you should also look at his expo if his planting a cc or later if hes flying it out.
The difference between 12.13 and 14 nex is that the 12nex is the "safest" I think since you can get a quicker gateway after it but you cut probes before the nex with this build, 13nex is the standard one you should be doing when not scouting and not cutting probes until you after you have started the nex and the 14nex is used when you scout before you start you nexus without cutting probes until after the nex is finished. I personally only use the 13nex since I think its superior to the other 2 from my own experience.
Louder : Do you really use that exact build? Cuz it looks really weird building 4things at 15 supply, especially that pylon since your nexus must be about to finish, that must be one hell of a probecut your doing and when you are cutting that hard why not just use the nexus as your "second pylon"? If that is really the build you use I would love to see a replay of it.
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On May 29 2009 13:11 Wala.Revolution wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 12:36 StarBrift wrote:On May 29 2009 12:29 da_head wrote:
the whole point of going such an early nexus, is that u beast macro and go for a contain with ur far larger army. if u let him mine u in, and he gets more bases than u, u mite as well rush Wrong. Massing units and containing him on a two base vs his two base is the worst possible solution. The safest way would be to get a very fast third once you see his nat in place and focus on scouting and defending. You will be far enough ahead that he can't do anything. Massing units can work but if you only use them to contain then you are giving away your advantage. You need to attack or harass using them. I think he means pseudo-contain the terran with a larger unit count (after deflecting harass attempts) and expo youself, just riding the advantage until the end.
What are you talking about? What is the point with "containing" a terran that isn't looking to move out. He's perfectly happy with you just standing outside and not harassing or expoing. You are talking about massing units off of 2 base and letting him catch up in economy needlessly. Either you kill him or you increase your economy.
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On May 30 2009 17:31 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 13:11 Wala.Revolution wrote:On May 29 2009 12:36 StarBrift wrote:On May 29 2009 12:29 da_head wrote:
the whole point of going such an early nexus, is that u beast macro and go for a contain with ur far larger army. if u let him mine u in, and he gets more bases than u, u mite as well rush Wrong. Massing units and containing him on a two base vs his two base is the worst possible solution. The safest way would be to get a very fast third once you see his nat in place and focus on scouting and defending. You will be far enough ahead that he can't do anything. Massing units can work but if you only use them to contain then you are giving away your advantage. You need to attack or harass using them. I think he means pseudo-contain the terran with a larger unit count (after deflecting harass attempts) and expo youself, just riding the advantage until the end. What are you talking about? What is the point with "containing" a terran that isn't looking to move out. He's perfectly happy with you just standing outside and not harassing or expoing. You are talking about massing units off of 2 base and letting him catch up in economy needlessly. Either you kill him or you increase your economy.
I guess that points to increase your economy since you just can't a move into a terran natural unless you got 3 times his unit count..
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On May 30 2009 17:31 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 13:11 Wala.Revolution wrote:On May 29 2009 12:36 StarBrift wrote:On May 29 2009 12:29 da_head wrote:
the whole point of going such an early nexus, is that u beast macro and go for a contain with ur far larger army. if u let him mine u in, and he gets more bases than u, u mite as well rush Wrong. Massing units and containing him on a two base vs his two base is the worst possible solution. The safest way would be to get a very fast third once you see his nat in place and focus on scouting and defending. You will be far enough ahead that he can't do anything. Massing units can work but if you only use them to contain then you are giving away your advantage. You need to attack or harass using them. I think he means pseudo-contain the terran with a larger unit count (after deflecting harass attempts) and expo youself, just riding the advantage until the end. What are you talking about? What is the point with "containing" a terran that isn't looking to move out. He's perfectly happy with you just standing outside and not harassing or expoing. You are talking about massing units off of 2 base and letting him catch up in economy needlessly. Either you kill him or you increase your economy.
?
he said 'and expo yourself', not stick on 2 base
what else are you gonna do with your army? sit in your natural? of course you should be containing him, otherwise hes gonna have vults running all over the map which is, at best, annoying.
just stay 1-2 bases ahead of him while macroing and going arbiter and you cant lose unless you're alot worse than your opponent.
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On May 29 2009 12:36 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 12:29 da_head wrote:
the whole point of going such an early nexus, is that u beast macro and go for a contain with ur far larger army. if u let him mine u in, and he gets more bases than u, u mite as well rush Wrong. Massing units and containing him on a two base vs his two base is the worst possible solution. The safest way would be to get a very fast third once you see his nat in place and focus on scouting and defending. You will be far enough ahead that he can't do anything. Massing units can work but if you only use them to contain then you are giving away your advantage. You need to attack or harass using them.
LOL get a fast third? what kind of terran would expo, when he sees you expoing? you basically won...
every single time i've FE'd, if they didn't attack me early on, i won automatically. good players usually try to take out that natural, or force some kind of contain on you. so what i say is, bust out of that contain, and contain HIM. thus gaining map control, allowing you to take that third, or just bleed him dry.
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On May 29 2009 12:04 StarBrift wrote:
Game 1:
Your build for 14 nex is wrong. It's supposed to be pylon->nex->gate->gas->pylon->gate but you did pylon->nex->gate->gas->gate->pylon leaving you with alot less probes. .
No. This is wrong. You can't make more than 1 zealot because that delays the dragoon. Any D+ T will make a vulture, run cricles around your zealot and kill many probes.
You need to cut probes to get a really quick goon because if you don't you lose even more to the first vulture.
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dont listen to starbrift, horrendous advice.
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This is actually a really interesting discussion. I hope some top-tier foreigners or Idra can come and help out. I would be really interested in this topic.
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On May 31 2009 03:28 piratebay wrote:
dont listen to starbrift, horrendous advice.
actually pretty much everything hes said is exactly right
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Sorry if this has been asked before, Idra, but how do the koreans change their builds to respond to a 12-14 Nexus? Do they change their builds at all?
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The difference between 12 nexus and 14 nexus is that you don't need a second pylon to get your first goons with 12 nexus.
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yea but in 14 nexus you get a second pylon which strengthens your gates and nexus.
frequently I have met someone who treats pylons like they're supply depots. the more pylons, the more fortified your gates and cannons are, and the bigger the army in turn.
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The times I've played against 14 nexus protoss tries to do any combination of this:
1. Contain me and have blatant map control with a sheer amount of units denying my expansions while he expands himself and starve me to death. Also denying my pushes with zealot bombs, storms and stasis.
2. Go for a fast 2 stargate arbiter recall build and recall the hell out of my expansions/main in case I get some expansions going.
3. Carriers if I succeed in enmassing a large quantity of units and he's not able to break through.
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i once played against some 14 nexus guy (i was a zerg though but same principle) and i was doing the normal shit and investing in guardians to take out his speedlots and reavers and templars, then around 17:00 he comes in with 18 carriers (i think, it's about that many) right in the blindspot between my nat and my main. 8 go to the nat 10 go to the main.
seriously, if he's not attacking, be afraid.
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On May 31 2009 12:15 redneck_mike wrote:
yea but in 14 nexus you get a second pylon which strengthens your gates and nexus.
frequently I have met someone who treats pylons like they're supply depots. the more pylons, the more fortified your gates and cannons are, and the bigger the army in turn.
Yeah, because you never get another pylon for the whole rest of the game -
Obviously you just move the timing back after the pair of goons, you're just cutting 2 probes for faster vulture defense in a build that hinges on defending the first attack.
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And pylons don't strengthen nexuses.
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The nexus is weird. You need a pylon to build it but you can't disconnect it.
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On May 29 2009 18:16 Louder wrote:
Hm I always do the BO like this:
8 pylon
13 nexus
13 gate
14 gas
15 core
15 gate
15 pylon
15 zealot
Don't have to make a 2nd pylon til after your first 2 goons start, and as far as I can tell it doesn't have any disadvantages.. you cut probes a lot in any nex first pvt opening
This is the version I'm familiar with too. If I were you I would perfect this build and perfect using rally points for your nexus'.
Always try to get the quick third once his rush fails or you see he's going for the expo. You just need to defend your main from drops if he happens to drop, which is always a possibility.
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On June 02 2009 05:29 redneck_mike wrote:
The nexus is weird. You need a pylon to build it but you can't disconnect it.
what?
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On June 02 2009 05:29 redneck_mike wrote:
The nexus is weird. You need a pylon to build it
wrong
On May 31 2009 22:13 redneck_mike wrote:
i once played against some 14 nexus guy (i was a zerg though but same principle) and i was doing the normal shit and investing in guardians to take out his speedlots and reavers and templars, then around 17:00 he comes in with 18 carriers (i think, it's about that many) right in the blindspot between my nat and my main. 8 go to the nat 10 go to the main.
seriously, if he's not attacking, be afraid.
I lol'd.
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If you went 13 nexus and manage to defend his rush well (either marine/scv-rush or some sort of mech rush), then just expand again soon after defending since you will have enough econ to keep up with units while expanding.
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how about go do a mass up timing attack after defending. bulldog? break his natural. should be easy with the advantage of an early nexus.
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I play both TvP and PvT, I'm not that good player (C+/B-). When I do 12-14nexus, I'll take third after defeating his rush and containing him. I also scout that dropship-play won't kill me.
When I play TvP vs 14nexus, I go with 2fac vults + bunker rush and try to kill his exp or 1base dropship play depending on the map, or then expand before add-on/unit myself. all my builds sucks tho. dunno how I even win any games.
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Uhm, another question.....
So let's say that I manage to take a third when he gets his natural then I manage to contain him so that he can't get anything out. Let's say I go for arbiters (I never win with carriers for some reason) so that would take some time to kick in. What if he decides to slow push out of his natural? I know I should zealot bomb and continue to harass but what if it just won't work? Should I give him space and try to lose minimal units then flank him outside where there's more space to maneuver my units? Because that's my latest problem now, yes I contain him and deny his sneaky third, but the thing is he manages to push out before I get arbiter tech out to do the finishing recalls.
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On May 31 2009 22:13 redneck_mike wrote:
i once played against some 14 nexus guy (i was a zerg though but same principle) and i was doing the normal shit and investing in guardians to take out his speedlots and reavers and templars, then around 17:00 he comes in with 18 carriers (i think, it's about that many) right in the blindspot between my nat and my main. 8 go to the nat 10 go to the main.
seriously, if he's not attacking, be afraid.
post of the year
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On May 31 2009 22:13 redneck_mike wrote:
i once played against some 14 nexus guy (i was a zerg though but same principle) and i was doing the normal shit and investing in guardians to take out his speedlots and reavers and templars, then around 17:00 he comes in with 18 carriers (i think, it's about that many) right in the blindspot between my nat and my main. 8 go to the nat 10 go to the main.
seriously, if he's not attacking, be afraid.
hahaha, great trolling there
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try massing relatively fast carriers
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On June 03 2009 06:12 Order wrote:
try massing relatively fast carriers
I rarely win with carriers.
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After a FE you could do any number of things. The number one thing you should try to do is keep your economic advantage. T will more than likely try to harass you after he sees that you FE, so if you're able to keep that off of you, expand again (because the T will likely respond by expanding and you need to be at least 1 base ahead of T the majority of the time). From there, you can go to Reaver/DT harass, Templar harass, quick Arbiters, or Carriers. It's totally up to you and the map. You just need to remember to keep your economic advantage and try to control the map as much as you can.
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On May 29 2009 23:52 Oystein wrote:
Did not watch the reps, but I can give some general pointers on 13nex. First of all, don`t listen to starbrift unless you are absolutely sure the other guy will Siege\expo and scouts late. The optimum build is cutting a few probes here and there since you will go into mass probe mode fast enough later due to 2nexus anyway, going non stop probes the way he suggest will get you killed vs so many things the T can do.
Here is how I usually do my 13nex.
8pyl
13nex (then scout, no point scouting earlier since you are committing anyway)
14gate
15gas
17core
17gate
(you will be supply blocked here for some time 5-10sec before you nex finishes)
17zeal (and resume probe production in both nexuses)
21 pylon.
slight probecut at 22 if you suspects he will be offensive so you can start 2 goons once your core finishes.
If you feel confident that he will not rush or on maps with ramps like andromeda you can continue probes and make range and only make 1 goon at first when the core finishes.
great build
just excecuted it against a C T and worked like a charm
Take your third when the Terran expands to his natural and add a couple of stargates +arb
3 base arbs on a map like Desti or Chupong is amazing~
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EPT
