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! Day[9] Podcasts E14: TvZ on Heartbreak Ridge - Page 18

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
969 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 16 17 18 19 20 49 Next All
AttackZerg
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States7577 Posts
April 23 2009 06:31 GMT
#341
Crunchums,

Yes you move your entire hand. Only a couple of inches. View your keyboard , esp your macroing as a piano, together with planing you can create and orchestra minons of zerg units and flood the map with your units. It takes some practice yes, but once you do at any given time you have the potential of creating 18 units (assuming no scourge or lings) every 36 seconds (sean says larva spawn in 13 seconds but by my counting its 12) or 39 seconds.

Realize the power of 5sh6sh7sh8sh9sh0sh. That is over 30 hydra per minute from an action sequence that once you master will take no more then 3 seconds (2 1/2 seconds is optimal).

I never place my pool under my gas. On alot of maps this will actually slow down your mining time. The optimal place for a sunken colony on any gas that is above you is directly beneath your gas (on the left side to avoid disrupting mining) or 1 tile down touching your hatchery. The reasoning for this is that you will be able to right click your drones on your extractor and quickly drone spread to protect your colony. See Jaedong vs lucifier on colo, where jaedong places his colony is optimal. Then you can build a sim city where your pool and hatchery are all covered by that single sunken.

1 sunken should easily cover all buildings in a zerg vs zerg. Also 12pool in zvz so my second hat in going at my natural, if I have to cancel it, I place it immediately on the right side of my hatchery (think 9 or 6 on python) This way my single sunken by the extractor covers them both easily. This is how I do it. If you place it beneath your main hatchery in both positions then you will be able to mine better on the lower patches but for me the draw back is defending and shifting lings, I really don't like defending in that situation.
Crunchums
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States11144 Posts
April 23 2009 06:42 GMT
#342
On April 23 2009 15:31 AttackZerg wrote:
Crunchums,

Yes you move your entire hand. Only a couple of inches. View your keyboard , esp your macroing as a piano, together with planing you can create and orchestra minons of zerg units and flood the map with your units. It takes some practice yes, but once you do at any given time you have the potential of creating 18 units (assuming no scourge or lings) every 36 seconds (sean says larva spawn in 13 seconds but by my counting its 12) or 39 seconds.

Realize the power of 5sh6sh7sh8sh9sh0sh. That is over 30 hydra per minute from an action sequence that once you master will take no more then 3 seconds (2 1/2 seconds is optimal).

I never place my pool under my gas. On alot of maps this will actually slow down your mining time. The optimal place for a sunken colony on any gas that is above you is directly beneath your gas (on the left side to avoid disrupting mining) or 1 tile down touching your hatchery. The reasoning for this is that you will be able to right click your drones on your extractor and quickly drone spread to protect your colony. See Jaedong vs lucifier on colo, where jaedong places his colony is optimal. Then you can build a sim city where your pool and hatchery are all covered by that single sunken.

1 sunken should easily cover all buildings in a zerg vs zerg. Also 12pool in zvz so my second hat in going at my natural, if I have to cancel it, I place it immediately on the right side of my hatchery (think 9 or 6 on python) This way my single sunken by the extractor covers them both easily. This is how I do it. If you place it beneath your main hatchery in both positions then you will be able to mine better on the lower patches but for me the draw back is defending and shifting lings, I really don't like defending in that situation.

Whenever I try and place a hatchery next to another hatchery the larvae move to block it at the last second >__>
I wish there was a larvae trick to make them go right.

Thanks for the help, I will try playing with these new hotkeys now
brood war for life, brood war forever
Crunchums
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States11144 Posts
April 23 2009 07:04 GMT
#343
On April 13 2009 04:38 MutaDoom wrote:
"Why you should play against worse players to make yourself more comfortable to bring your game to another level." This just makes me wonder - Does this apply for Jaedong on a day to day basis?

This got me thinking; maybe the reason why it's hard for pros to to stay at the top is that there's nobody better than them for them to play against? So Flash is on top of the world and has nobody better to practice against, so he doesn't realize not to 14CC XD
brood war for life, brood war forever
AttackZerg
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States7577 Posts
April 23 2009 07:15 GMT
#344
learn to bh bh bh bh super fast while clicking and normally you can place it within your first 2-3 tries =).
ShadowDrgn
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States2497 Posts
April 23 2009 07:31 GMT
#345
I've been using mouse acceleration for as long as the feature has existed. Even though everyone always told me how bad it was for gaming, I was stubborn and refused to change. After listening to this podcast, I finally turned it off (and used that registry change too). Your podcasts are very compelling.
Of course, you only live one life, and you make all your mistakes, and learn what not to do, and that’s the end of you.
Lq_ fAn
Profile Joined June 2007
Lithuania154 Posts
April 23 2009 08:01 GMT
#346
On April 23 2009 15:31 AttackZerg wrote:
Crunchums,

Yes you move your entire hand. Only a couple of inches. View your keyboard , esp your macroing as a piano, together with planing you can create and orchestra minons of zerg units and flood the map with your units. It takes some practice yes, but once you do at any given time you have the potential of creating 18 units (assuming no scourge or lings) every 36 seconds (sean says larva spawn in 13 seconds but by my counting its 12) or 39 seconds.

Realize the power of 5sh6sh7sh8sh9sh0sh. That is over 30 hydra per minute from an action sequence that once you master will take no more then 3 seconds (2 1/2 seconds is optimal).

I never place my pool under my gas. On alot of maps this will actually slow down your mining time. The optimal place for a sunken colony on any gas that is above you is directly beneath your gas (on the left side to avoid disrupting mining) or 1 tile down touching your hatchery. The reasoning for this is that you will be able to right click your drones on your extractor and quickly drone spread to protect your colony. See Jaedong vs lucifier on colo, where jaedong places his colony is optimal. Then you can build a sim city where your pool and hatchery are all covered by that single sunken.

1 sunken should easily cover all buildings in a zerg vs zerg. Also 12pool in zvz so my second hat in going at my natural, if I have to cancel it, I place it immediately on the right side of my hatchery (think 9 or 6 on python) This way my single sunken by the extractor covers them both easily. This is how I do it. If you place it beneath your main hatchery in both positions then you will be able to mine better on the lower patches but for me the draw back is defending and shifting lings, I really don't like defending in that situation.

here is a 1a2a3a.exe you can train any hotkeys you want
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~edfu/starcraft/1a2a3a.exe
AttackZerg whats your 4h5sh6sh7sh8sh9sh0sh record time?

AttackZerg
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States7577 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-23 08:28:28
April 23 2009 08:15 GMT
#347
never tried. does that program gauge it?

edit: I only know my timing because as I was typing it I was counting, I did it 5 times and beat 3 seconds everytime while only beating 2 seconds twice. I did it from where my hand would be in game.

Edit. 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a8a => 1.05 record time and 1.14 average with some around 1.26

5sh6sh7sh8sh9sh => .85 record time with .97 being the highest
Crunchums
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States11144 Posts
April 23 2009 08:34 GMT
#348
what the fuckkkkkkkk
my best 5sh6sh7sh8sh9sh is 5 seconds
brood war for life, brood war forever
AttackZerg
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States7577 Posts
April 23 2009 08:36 GMT
#349
When I was 16 ( 7 years ago) I spent a month working on it.
snorlax
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States755 Posts
April 23 2009 08:41 GMT
#350
<3 Day[9]
Strayline
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States330 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-23 16:02:24
April 23 2009 16:01 GMT
#351
For me it's not really the keyboard hotkeys that give me the most trouble in terms of mechanics. I will admit that I mouse click the icon for overlord and some of the upgrades I just don't use often enough to memorize the hotkeys but these are habits I'm trying to break and I'm getting better.

What I'm struggling more with is basic unit control. And I mean basic unit control. Not like "I can't dodge storms" or "I suck at muta micro vs control groups of MM" or "I'm slow at cloneing" all of which are true, but ironically things like my muta micro is improving faster than basic army organization.

The type of stuff I'm talking about is:

*I don't fill my control groups back up reliably.
*I don't move out from my rally point. Or I move out only what I have hotkeyed.
*Stuff gets lost under overlord clouds at rally points.
* Drones + attack units + overlords at the same location. Ugh.
*Having groups of scourge on hand and easily accessible to clone.
*Sending in reinforcements intelligently. I generally try to use the minimap and run into the same problem day[9] mentioned with being off by a few pixels and missing the battle completely when I'm trying to do it as fast as possible.
*No doubt other stuff as well. This is just what comes to mind in this moment. I'm sure there is stuff that is a problem that I don't even realize I'm doing.

The bottom line is I would love to get to the point where I can be one of those players that has a huge zerg army moving gracefully around the map constantly and brilliantly countering my opponents moves. And while I know I have a long way to go with the production/gamesense aspects of that goal, those two dimensions seem to be improving while the the keeping-a-big-ball-in-motion-and-setting-up-flanks part of the equation is pretty much non-existent at this point. It feels like I am much worse at this, than I am when it comes to production, gameplan, small scale micro or really almost any other aspect of the game.

Any day[9]-style feedback (how can I improve? what should I look for as mistakes? any tip or trick that particularly helped you with this? etc) on this topic would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Strayline
MutaDoom
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada1163 Posts
April 23 2009 17:11 GMT
#352
On April 23 2009 16:04 Crunchums wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2009 04:38 MutaDoom wrote:
"Why you should play against worse players to make yourself more comfortable to bring your game to another level." This just makes me wonder - Does this apply for Jaedong on a day to day basis?

This got me thinking; maybe the reason why it's hard for pros to to stay at the top is that there's nobody better than them for them to play against? So Flash is on top of the world and has nobody better to practice against, so he doesn't realize not to 14CC XD


To be honest, it's a possibility. It's hard to be innovative and crafty, making new strategies, when you can just beat everyone straight-up-standard. With that continuing standard play, you get predictable(Re: Flash 14cc), and become easier to beat, essentially ending your reign as champion.
Zozma
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States1626 Posts
April 23 2009 17:42 GMT
#353
It's okay because at that time Flash could just practice with Magma.
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
April 23 2009 17:47 GMT
#354
nice episode day[9].
there are some exceptions, imo, where you can use the "mouse click" on an icon to your advantage even if you can hotkey it, but its never good to focus on small exceptions when teaching the general idea to people.
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
Crunchums
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States11144 Posts
April 23 2009 19:58 GMT
#355
On April 24 2009 02:47 StylishVODs wrote:
nice episode day[9].
there are some exceptions, imo, where you can use the "mouse click" on an icon to your advantage even if you can hotkey it, but its never good to focus on small exceptions when teaching the general idea to people.

Examples of such exceptions?
brood war for life, brood war forever
Day[9]
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
United States7366 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-23 20:35:37
April 23 2009 20:35 GMT
#356
On April 24 2009 02:47 StylishVODs wrote:
nice episode day[9].
there are some exceptions, imo, where you can use the "mouse click" on an icon to your advantage even if you can hotkey it, but its never good to focus on small exceptions when teaching the general idea to people.


i strongly strongly disagree

do you have an example of such an exception?
Whenever I encounter some little hitch, or some of my orbs get out of orbit, nothing pleases me so much as to make the crooked straight and crush down uneven places. www.day9.tv
-_-
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States7081 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-23 21:28:12
April 23 2009 21:24 GMT
#357
On April 24 2009 05:35 Day[9] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2009 02:47 StylishVODs wrote:
nice episode day[9].
there are some exceptions, imo, where you can use the "mouse click" on an icon to your advantage even if you can hotkey it, but its never good to focus on small exceptions when teaching the general idea to people.


i strongly strongly disagree

do you have an example of such an exception?


As a P

I cancel a building that's going to die, tap 4 which is my stargate hotkey, then .... how do I build the sair. I have to readjust my whole hand placement to build a sair.

Or what if I 1a to attack, pinky on a, retard finger on 1, then 4 to my gateway with my pointer, and I want to build a DT? Move my whole hand? I could DT with my thumb, but what if I wanted to build a goon with my gateway on 5, and a zealot on 6?

...

Still, I think being able to switch between keyboard stances would still be faster, you just have to be REALLY comfortable.
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-23 23:21:28
April 23 2009 22:50 GMT
#358
On April 24 2009 05:35 Day[9] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2009 02:47 StylishVODs wrote:
nice episode day[9].
there are some exceptions, imo, where you can use the "mouse click" on an icon to your advantage even if you can hotkey it, but its never good to focus on small exceptions when teaching the general idea to people.


i strongly strongly disagree

do you have an example of such an exception?


Example: TvP, I have my factoryhotkeys 4 5 6 7 8 9.
When macroing tanks and vultures during a push without leaving the screen, its easier and faster to press 4t5t6789.
4 tank
5 tank
6 7 8 9 you click on the vultureicon with your mouse.

Visual example. Check 9:05 in this video.
In this situation, using 4t5t6v7v8v9v would not only be harder but also not give me any advantage since i will not be able to micro with my mouse at the same time anyway and also i dont see how the macroround would be faster using the full hotkey macro.
Edit: In this situation I actually only have 5 factories and 1 addon, but you get the point.



+ Show Spoiler +

Practice it for half an hour and you'll find that it will take you about 1 second to macro the 6 factories and yet not lose focus of the action or important time.

There are more exceptions, however they are quite few, but its also quite obvious that they exist because of the keyboard layout.

This game was played at C- in the earlier stages of the ladder. However lets not get into if the opponent were good or if I played good but rather the use of this exception.


According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
Eukarya
Profile Joined April 2009
United States29 Posts
April 24 2009 00:28 GMT
#359
I'm having trouble getting my F keys to work properly. All of them start out bound to my main nexus, so pressing any of them brings my screen there. However, if I try to set one to another location, it does nothing, and the key still brings me back to my main nexus. Is pressing ctrl + Fkey the wrong way to set an F key, or am I doing something else wrong?

Thanks for any help.
threepool
Profile Joined March 2009
United States150 Posts
April 24 2009 00:51 GMT
#360
On April 24 2009 09:28 Eukarya wrote:
I'm having trouble getting my F keys to work properly. All of them start out bound to my main nexus, so pressing any of them brings my screen there. However, if I try to set one to another location, it does nothing, and the key still brings me back to my main nexus. Is pressing ctrl + Fkey the wrong way to set an F key, or am I doing something else wrong?

Thanks for any help.

You need to use Shift+F key. I have no idea why.
This is my *house*. Do you want to know a *secret*? Do not *think* it too *not campers*. You are so many *lonely* *juicy* *bubbles*. It is so sad. Now that you are *campers* you will have more *parties* and no more *sad* *lonely* *bubbles*.
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