This thread will be a compilation of every audio recording I've done to date. They all will be uploaded in mp3 format for easy DL and use! Moreover, everything will be organized according to topic for easy searching! Excluding the first 2, all audios will have ID3 tags for iPod + media player use.
Additionally, this thread will be the official "request thread" for topics you'd like me to discuss. Topics could be on: general structure of play, matchup specific play, issues w/ particular builds, micro/macro tips, analysis of certain promatches etc. Feel free to be as vague or as specific as you'd like. For example:
-"what is the underlying difference between 3hatch and 2hatch vs terran? Why should I choose one over the other?" -"I'm terran and I'm having huge trouble beating protoss on Medusa." -"Why did Hoejja stick with lair for so long vs Bisu?" -"How should I hotkey my units as terran to control late-game big MnM armies?"
Also, if there are any formatting issues or broken links, PM me!! I'll fix them as soon as possible. Feel free to post or PM any feedback. Such comments will help future audios. Thanks!
All Podcasts - Organized by Topic
Hallmarks of Expert Play Series (HOP) - Podcast series providing high level tips. + Show Spoiler +
HOP Introduction gives an introduction to the Hallmarks of Expert Play Series. Definitely listen to this first! Length: 1:03
HOP1 Winning with an Advantage provides key advice for playing with and maintaining an advantage. HOP1 is key for players who feel confused or lost when they're winning, or who feel like they throw games away regularly. Length: 12:39
HOP2 Redundancy and Purpose describes methods of smoothing out excessive elements in your gameplay and maximizing use of all units/buildings throughout a game. Length: 10:34.
HOP3 Having a Good Mindset gives tips for having a strong thought process in and out of game. Length: 17:34.
Mechanics Series (MECH) - Podcast series focusing on improving micro and macro by using proper mouse, keyboard, and management techniques + Show Spoiler +
MECH Introduction provides an introduction to the MECH series. Definitely listen to first! Length 3:44
MECH1 Basics describes good placement for keyboard and mouse hands, hotkey setups and exercises to improve mouse accuracy. Length: 27:55
General Game Theory - Podcasts addressing broad issues in logic, learning, improvement, and game theory. + Show Spoiler +
Building Triggers and the Imaginary Player discusses how to create and fine tune your own responses to deviations in the game. Though fairly advanced, this audio applies to anyone enjoys practicing and constructing precise builds and play. Length: 25:26
Why You Should Play Against Worse Players explains why it sometimes isn't best to be playing good players all the time. The audio describes how playing worse players helps your mind become more comfortable and creative, allowing you to take your game to the next level. Length 16:53
A New Look at Build Orders presents the appropriate way to think about build orders to allow for flexibility and understanding. Length: 34:18
Relative Timings explains how to plan timings that can account for variability and help optimize efficiency. Length: 14:29
Sidestepping: The Art of Abusing Weakness reveals how to take advantage of an opponents weaknesses rather than trying to punch holes in his strengths. Length: 22:39
Race Specific - Podcasts addressing race specific issues, including build orders and general play tips + Show Spoiler +
Zerg: Stopping Mech focuses on the general theory of how a zerg can crush terran mech play. With the rising popularity in mech, underlying mech logic is key to forming builds and countering opponents. This audio also includes a framework for a ZvT build order. Length: 23:48
Variations on 5 Hatch Hydra in ZvP explains the basic underlying logic of 5 hatch hydra, as well as the underlying logic of 3 distinct variations. Length: 20:16
Terran: TvZ Midgame on Heartbreak Ridge: Fantasy's Play examines how to develop a good plan starting with the midgame. Fantasy's play on Heartbreak Ridge is used as an extended example. Length: 19:38
Protoss: Transitions and a Simple Goon Reaver Push uses a simple, effective goon reaver push as a case study for good transitions. Length: 13:13 IMPORTANT NOTE: I misspoke through this entire cast! I repeatedly say zealot after stargate. I meant zealot after cybercore. Not sure how i said "stargate" so many times when I was thinking about the core the whole time .
On March 16 2009 21:13 motbob wrote: I hope that this isn't like Mr Hoon, where he made a thread like this one documenting all of his translations and then never did another translation
haha no worries, i already have 5 more audio recorded!! there was just a bit of a delay due to some server upload issues.
maybe its a little basic. but maybe you have something to say that will help a C-/D+ zerg plz... multi-tasking. multi bases. maybe its just practice i need, but when i get outside of 3 bases, and especially at 5... the wheels just start falling off. i dont defend them properly. i dont seem to get resource gathering up enough at them all. and most of all, if im managing my bases- my units arent doing enough. scouting, harassing etc.
thats my main problem with zerg atm. probably just a practice thing i know- but you asked.
I have a big problem with zerg. I feel that my mid game play is ok. But when I play on just 3 gas especially in zvt, I have a lot of trubble. I cant make many lurkers, becuz the defiler and scourges takes the most of the gas. Then I is left with mostly zerglings. And they melt so fast, becuz my defiler controll is not that great But 4 gas play have always been easy for me. Mass ultras and lings = win.
So my questions is: How to secure a 4 gas in ZvT, what base to expand to, and how to play as a 3 gas zerg vs terran?
If I play on Python (which I rarly do). I have secured a 3 base in a main, and have 3 base gas. What is the next exp I should aim for. A new main or the nat of the main I have already secured.
why don't you submit your podcast to the zune marketplace or the itunes store where people can download it directly and update automatically. Im looking through itunes and there's not one podcast dedicated to starcraft expect sc2gg's podcast which they stopped 6 months ago
On March 16 2009 23:58 epicdoom wrote: why don't you submit your podcast to the zune marketplace or the itunes store where people can download it directly and update automatically. Im looking through itunes and there's not one podcast dedicated to starcraft expect sc2gg's podcast which they stopped 6 months ago
Wow this is a great idea. I'll definitely begin this process!!! :D
On March 16 2009 21:13 motbob wrote: I hope that this isn't like Mr Hoon, where he made a thread like this one documenting all of his translations and then never did another translation
Yeah ever since he got his Quality Poster,he seemed to disappear but he did hell of a job translating where are you MrHoon
I think it would be interesting if you worked a few more ZvP examples into your podcasts. I know it's a little messier but sometimes you make a point and I can totally see how it applies in ZvT (which is much more well defined in my mind) but not really sure if I could say the same vs protoss.
Like take the similar situation for your example in the Win With Advantage vs protoss. I've pushed him back to his natural with lurkers and he is waiting for obs. I'm less clear that an aggressive harass isn't as least as good as the reinforce and try to win the obs sniping game. To be clear, it may well be a really stupid idea and I'm totally wrong but my point is I'm not as clear about the way things apply in ZvP it and I think it would be cool to mix up the examples a bit.
Obviously this doesn't apply to the stopping mech with zerg or something similar in the future
On March 16 2009 23:58 epicdoom wrote: why don't you submit your podcast to the zune marketplace or the itunes store where people can download it directly and update automatically. Im looking through itunes and there's not one podcast dedicated to starcraft expect sc2gg's podcast which they stopped 6 months ago
Wow this is a great idea. I'll definitely begin this process!!! :D
thanks!
yeah i was gonna mention this too, would be badass if it could sync straight to my zune instead of listening to it at the computer
On March 16 2009 23:58 epicdoom wrote: why don't you submit your podcast to the zune marketplace or the itunes store where people can download it directly and update automatically. Im looking through itunes and there's not one podcast dedicated to starcraft expect sc2gg's podcast which they stopped 6 months ago
Wow this is a great idea. I'll definitely begin this process!!! :D
Is there any chance that we can get transcriptions posted in the op as well? I know that it's a lot to ask for, but I know for at least me personally I enjoy being able to read it instead of listen.
Thanks for doing these though, they're a huge help.
Throwing away an advantage. Hmm... sounds like me, haha. Your audios are very enlightening for a novice starcraft player like myself =]. I look forward to more great tips!
Drone timing against Terran and Protoss. When do you know when you can build drones? How many drones can you build when? When should you expand? When should you build pure units even if you only have a few drones?
Things like that I'm greatly interested in, and I'd love it if you could cover most of these things. I'm positive that many others would be very interested to hear about your thoughts on this topic as well.
How do you structure your talks? What process do you go trough, resulting in the structured talk presented to us. I find your talks amazingly well structured. I mean; my posts are always a mess. When I try to explain stuff to people, i find it hard to order my toughts. I have the feeling that I raelly get what you are trying to say. How do you do that?
"You talk about end game plans, could you expand on what the "goals" of each race is in each matchup in a supposed late game scenario (basically what is the modern endgame scenario for each races in each respective macthup."
Hey, would TL possibly have a different, less restricted place for the uploads? Right now it works, but just no authorization, at: http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/zatic/ Assuming it were reuploaded into a more public area that anyone could access, you could subscribe to that URL (replacing http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/zatic/), with the new one, and you can have a podcast working straight out of iTunes.
EDIT: Ugh, I was beaten.
And of course you could do it straight through iTunes. But having an exclusive TL podcast (i.e.) http://www.teamliquid.net/podcasts/Day[9]/... would be delightful . It doesn't even have to be fancy, simply an open URL that link to multiple .mp3 files (I think?) Anyone who is more well read in the matter can take over, but I'm suggesting to definitely give it a try.
Really nice work, Day. You laid the ground work for some really great discussions about advantage in general, and I hope you pursue them...
Additive power of small advantages Cementing early game advantages in the mid game More detail on determining at what point you can end a game from a position of advantage Correctly assessing your degree of advantage, and knowing how far you can push it Correctly assessing your degree of disadvantage, and appropriate responses More detail on how to modify your end game roadmap based on advantage
You said some good stuff that I expect a lot of less experienced players will really benefit from. You're awesome.
On March 17 2009 05:33 Shikyo wrote: I have a big, huge propose for a future podcast:
Drone timing against Terran and Protoss. When do you know when you can build drones? How many drones can you build when? When should you expand? When should you build pure units even if you only have a few drones?
Things like that I'm greatly interested in, and I'd love it if you could cover most of these things. I'm positive that many others would be very interested to hear about your thoughts on this topic as well.
This question would be pretty hard to explain as it is completely situational from the get go and it depends what you are looking to do and why you are looking to do it. Even basic and general rules have times they need to be altered.
Basically in giving an answer that would be correct most of the time you would also have to start saying, "well except in this situation or this etc..."
The best answer ever in brood war is: "It depends". It all comes down to knowing the game and knowing what you have to do and each alteration you have to make given the circumstances. There is no shortcut to knowing. It all accumulates through experience. You will never read something online and immediately put it into practice. Experience and practice.
Sadly, it sounds like completely vague bullshit. However, it's completely accurate.
While it may seem your question is specific, it really isn't. You need positions, races, opponent, and much more just to start factoring in the equation.
A very basic rule to zerg (vs terran and protoss) though is: Make as many drones as you can without getting caught or ruining the timing of your strategy. So basically maximize the amount of drones you can have vs the amount of army you need to keep you safe until you want to start taking the fight to him. In saying this very basic rule, I am wrong in many situations. But generally, it is correct. Day can't say, "build X amount of drones at this time and this time." etc. Because that would be wrong in so many places. ;p
A lot of your talks have transcripts. I think it'd be great if you could spoiler the transcripts (and link to the original thread for the ones you have already done).
Thanks, I'll be sure to listen!
You should do a talk about guessing tech based on unit composition.
I read somewhere else that if you get an advantage; expand. In your audio commentary you recommended following your endgame plan, which is getting defilers, THEN taking a 4th. Since you have a contain, couldn't you take a 4th earlier?
In other words, if you have an advantage, should you focus on increasing your army, or expanding, or if the answer is, "it depends...", can you give examples in which situation you would expand and in which you would not?
Thanks in advance, Llamaz.
P.S. You should consider doing pro level game analysies :S.
On March 17 2009 14:08 MYM.Testie wrote: Even basic and general rules have times they need to be altered.
The best answer ever in brood war is: "It depends". It all comes down to knowing the game and knowing what you have to do and each alteration you have to make given the circumstances. There is no shortcut to knowing. It all accumulates through experience. You will never read something online and immediately put it into practice. Experience and practice.
QFT
That's why I'm always hesitant to release replays or to talk about build orders. Rather, I really like to focus on the underlying logic that forms so many "rules."
I'll definitely pop some "builds" into audios from time to time, but mainly I want to teach people how to teach themselves!
On March 17 2009 14:08 MYM.Testie wrote: Even basic and general rules have times they need to be altered.
The best answer ever in brood war is: "It depends". It all comes down to knowing the game and knowing what you have to do and each alteration you have to make given the circumstances. There is no shortcut to knowing. It all accumulates through experience. You will never read something online and immediately put it into practice. Experience and practice.
QFT
That's why I'm always hesitant to release replays or to talk about build orders. Rather, I really like to focus on the underlying logic that forms so many "rules."
I'll definitely pop some "builds" into audios from time to time, but mainly I want to teach people how to teach themselves!
YAR!
So, no podcast about drone timings? =( I don't mean build orders, but especially in the late game ZvT I'll just pump units non-stop and my main would only have about 6 drones on minerals, I'll only make expansion drones off the expansion hatchery and so on. I've seen even many top non-koreans have bad drone saturation. And when I do make drones, it seems like I make too many and I end up dying because I have no units. I don't know wether or not it's too complicated a request, but I'd really love to hear something about it...
Testie, thanks a lot for your response, I found it very helpful. In the beginning of the game I always attempt to get away with as few units as possible. However, when the non-stop pumping begins, I have no idea when I'm supposed to switch into drone production, and making drones out of just the expansion hatchery feels extremely ineffective. I am repeating myself quite a bit here, sorry about that.
On March 18 2009 01:31 Shikyo wrote: So, no podcast about drone timings?
oh sorry i wasn't clear!
i'll definitely have a podcast about drone timings! I just wanted to point out that Testie is correct in emphasizing how many variations there are in Starcraft.
The issue is that people want "the build" they can mechanically follow every game to victory. When that build stops working they want a new build. Though I encourage the exploration of different builds and solutions, SO many people (including most of TL) don't want to come up with the builds/solutions on their own. They almost expect better players to provide them, whether it be through VODs, replays, or forum posts.
The obvious problem with this (other than the time/effort needed to share) is that there are SO many deviations that occur in starcraft. It's often FAR too time consuming to explicitly enumerate each situation and how to properly respond. Moreover, its even more difficult for a reader to cram all this information into his head.
As a result, I want to focus heavily on the underlying theory and logic of many situations rather than share builds. Underlying theory not only is easier to understand and shorter to explain, but also allows players to rework and rethink a wide variety of situations (even totally new ones!).
For instance, let's say I want to make a new ZvT build on a certain map. I note that most terrans early expand on this map and, therefore, move out with the first push around 9:30-10mins. I decide hydra/lurk is the strongest option on this map and begin to play from there, forming a good amount of hydra/lurk for that first push. Let's say, however, that I encounter a player who goes for 2 factory tank. Though his push comes out slower (around 10:30-11mins), I find it almost impossible to kill. Fortunately, should I see the 2 factory being built, I note that I can tech to hive EXTREMELY quickly, skip a big hydra/lurk army altogether, and get a bunch of guardians asap.
If I provided a "hydra/lurk build," a huge number of players would start losing to the first 2factory push, and then complain that they need a build, or that a "gosu" needs to list a counter. However in this particular example, I didn't begin with a build order at all. Rather, I began with the timing logic of "the first terran push." Such logic allowed me not only to construct a nice hydra/lurk build but also to account for and formulate proper changes (aka the guards).
In future audios, I'll happily provide some sample build orders and describe noteworthy responses in certain situations, but I want to focus consistently on underlying logic, and continually emphasize why theory is more important than builds. For your "drone timing question," I'll provide the ideas of when to power drones, and then provide some example situations. That way, you'll be able to devise your own timing! :D
>>insert quote about teaching men to fish rather than providing fish<<
Many many thanks for this Day! Love the stuff that talks about improving and such.
I would like to request Mindgames and how does "general RTS" rules play out. Specifically from one coming from a Warcraft background, what are the things to do to adapt into a "new game" and stuff.
If you have already mentioned that in these audios, then my apologies, I'll be hearing it now.
Thank you Day, these audio "posts" from you are always excellent!
I was listening to the latest one on my way to work today, and it really got me thinking about my game, and how I do things that really are unnecessary. I have quite a few ideas on things to change now, thanks!
There is something in how you present the stuff you're talking about that always makes me think about Josh Waitzkin's deep-analysis chess tutorials from the Chessmaster series, even though you have a somewhat different style..
Oh and by the way, in one of your first audios, you mention something about working on a video series as well.. Any more info on that? Sounded really interesting.
wow much thanks! your previous rant on zerg vs metal was really informative and helpful. I think its fabulous that you're doing more. this is really really cool stuff, now i can listen and practice my macro at the same time
Really good work you have done mister, I just hear them last night while I was feeding my baby and I find a lot of really useful information on them, I will try to listen them again carefully and you can bet I will be waiting for the next ones. Thanks a lot for it!
I think the podcast about winning when you get the advantage will suit me perfectly, I have found myself in very good position many many times (killing their natural nexus with a drop, killing many probes with a proxy factory that I flew into their main and so on), and some how I always lose those games.
On March 19 2009 08:40 SirNeb wrote: Awesome stuff. You speak very clearly. Your voice sounds like those professional self help audio CDs.
Well his brother is the GomTV commentator so I guess charisma and enunciation runs in their family.
Anyways, great stuff Day9, I enjoyed the building triggers a lot but the "what to do with an advantage" is what ended up helping me the most. Even though it sounds retarded, I always thought of map control as only containing them. I don't know why but it seems like I would completely ignore the idea of them doing shuttles when I got the advantage, even though the most likely scenario is them doing shuttles. but now when i find myself far ahead and containing them, I keep a group of 6 wraiths hotkeyed and I have random turrets and spotter mines EVERYWHERE. No more shuttle/DTs ruining my expos anymore
likeaboss, actually I've seen lzgamer watch reps and play with people in op irc just to help them. Also I've known machine to give advice (thx). Even nyoken explained some elements of terran mechanic play that I never understood. I think its just a matter of people not ever knowing them?
this more or less answers one of my questions in a round about way. thank you for speaking so much about how to play "your" game and evolving it, not just regurgitating what other people do. thats what keeps this fun.
After listening to your latest audio I giggled like a schoolgirl ... I just figured out the exact timing of 1sair and how long until 3 sairs or instead of 1 sair - 1 scout in my building triggers blog, and it completely was part of my 'build' planning!
Holy shit. I've just found this thread. Havn't listened to your audio podcasts yet, so it might be covered.
You said we could ask some qs.
One specific 1--do you use space bar. Like, I just played a few games w/ it. And it's helpful... but when I had a bunch of gates running at max when I saw a probe come out and I hit spacebar... went to gate. But maybe I'm just slow b/c I havn't used it.
and tell ur fucking bro to write part two if his keyboard blog on starfeeder-_-_-
Oh man day i used your advise in a TvP, i went 2 fac vult drop, and after i stoped making dships i decided to make a few cloaked wraiths with scan, 6 wraiths + scan = alot of dead probes ^^
Can you talk on how to read the situation properly? I think its the biggest difference between a real pro and just a strong mechanical player, but to give some examples to explain myself:
Besides the obvious, like, hey i just won a battle and so i have this little timing window where i can mass workers and expand once more, could you talk about how to spot the more subtle hints where you can add tech, workers, expansions, production facilities, or just change the mix of your units?
On March 21 2009 05:56 Cloud wrote: Can you talk on how to read the situation properly? I think its the biggest difference between a real pro and just a strong mechanical player, but to give some examples to explain myself:
Besides the obvious, like, hey i just won a battle and so i have this little timing window where i can mass workers and expand once more, could you talk about how to spot the more subtle hints where you can add tech, workers, expansions, production facilities, or just change the mix of your units?
THIS!!
also, more talk on how to properly scout if possible (though your triggers and the imaginary player concepts were really amazing)
I think you are getting at a very important topic cloud, but I think its too detailed a matter so I doubt you are going to find a helpful general answer. A helpful answer will be specific -- a particular answer on reading a particular thing, and there are far too many of those. Reading a situation correctly is more like a process that happens over time as you learn more about all aspects involved in a situation, because everything that you see does matter to some extent. Your opponent could have played another way but they are playing this way. There is no one situation, but many possible situations and how they are related. I think all of the stuff you are rolling into 'how can I spot subtle hints' is not a simple matter, see if this makes sense to you: I think I am safe in saying extracting possibilities/potentialities from the bare facts of what you scout is key to reading a situation well. Then beyond that, and just as important is knowing your possibilities and how they relate to your opponents. And then beyond that you have to know how to react, which possibility to actualize.
"Bringing new experience to bear on old memories is how we learn. Maybe the most important thing we do with memories is not keep them crystallized the way they happen but taking them apart and figure out what is important about what has happened to us, and everything else that has happened to us in the past, and figuring out what that means about our future, what we are going to do next, how can I use that information? In some ways the most brilliant thing the human brain can do is that kind of extraction and meaning making." -BBC Horizon
On March 21 2009 04:57 AttackZerg wrote: Mechanics involve doing things well, in a mechanical fashion .... how can you or anybody else who have played broodwar and not figured it out.
I played the game for 8 years before realizing that the best way to build pylon is pinky on b and index on p.
I didn't know how to set rally w/ screens until a year or so ago.
On March 21 2009 09:49 beyond.wudge wrote: REQUEST: Could you do a hotkey cast? How to do hotkeys and stuff early game, mid game, late game, as Terran, Protoss and Zerg?
Let's see some sibling rivalry! Day can be for hotkeying the nexus to 4!
Can you discuss the notions and mindsets a D player should go through to reach the higher ranks? What they should aim to focus on in their play, ways they should learn etc and maybe about improving speed (I dare say apm)
On March 22 2009 08:17 R3condite wrote: day[9] do u think u can upload these "spreadsheets" that u keep mentioning in stoppingmech?
I'll save you the confusion of misinterpeting his reaction.
He says super super clearly that in 2003 he made a spreadsheet, doesn't have it, and can't remember it exactly except that ultra-ling maxiumizes mechs firepower.
Why would you need spread sheets when you could do the same thing yourself?
anyone bashing hotkeys/mouse control are dead wrong.
i spent months reworking how i held my mouse and how to improve my keyboard for accuracy purposes. I have tons of exercises that will be included in future audios. literally ANY question that you have about starcraft is likely a legitimate one so KEEP ASKING THEM PLEASE!!! : ]
Sorry to bump this and get peoples hopes up that another has been uploaded but I wanted to say thanks day9 for these podcasts. Getting this on itunes would be great too :D.
On March 26 2009 19:24 Batibot323 wrote: How does an Ultra/Ling fights SK Terran? How do you hotkey all those Lings? Is there any way to practice Hive play aside from massing games?
Thanks!
Elaborating on that, how should you hotkey the huge armies for late game Zergs? There are too many zerglings for you to realistically hotkey all of your units but selecting and a-moving one group at a time leads to a very fractured attack that gets destroyed. Also, you often end up selecting the same units multiple times. Where should you hotkey your defilers? Do you balance the hotkeys between hatcheries and the army or do you just assign temporary hotkeys to a huge army and rehotkey the hatcheries later?
These audio casts are FANTASTIC. I've gained a level on ICC in just 2 weeks from applying the thinking you advocate in this thread and drastically improved my off racing aswell (and thus the understanding of timings).
It's amazing how much difference a good mindset does to a game mof starcraft.
You can probably include pictures of your keyboard setup and mouse handling to show accuracy. I want to hear the other hallmarks of expert gameplay gogo!
Much love Sean!! I am a player who is not new to the game but very bad, I only have won a few games out of 50 matches....... I am a very busy due to being a senior in high school and with tons of things coming up I have little time to practice.
I was wondering if you can give a detailed practice method, besides just massing games...... I just want to get out a great deal with what little time I have right now.
edit: just listen to the first half of the zerg specific guide and every time you said fuck or fucking i laughed and found myself enjoying it much more. .. cheerful strong voice + profanity = win
Just listened to all of them in the car to and from work and they were absolutely great. You made everything so easy to understand and I really feel like I learned a lot from listening to them. You HAVE to keep doing these!
On April 01 2009 16:02 Tyrant wrote: Good stuff...... but.... you're way too cheerful!
edit: just listen to the first half of the zerg specific guide and every time you said fuck or fucking i laughed and found myself enjoying it much more. .. cheerful strong voice + profanity = win
i like it in better in the later ones when u don't curse Day[9]... i dislike cursing that fluently =/
On April 06 2009 10:21 Sonu wrote: hey can you make some Protoss audios too? all guides are like zerg and terran based T_T.. make sure you add timings to that.
On April 06 2009 10:21 Sonu wrote: hey can you make some Protoss audios too? all guides are like zerg and terran based T_T.. make sure you add timings to that.
plz plz plz Day[9] listen to him plz
Ignore these 2, in fact, take out terran and do pure zerg or do overall strategy only.
man i went into this a little skeptical, but holy shit - day really understands starcraft on a deep level and is good at explaining things. I've already added some of his tips to my game, and I think it's improved me forsure. but hopefully you will do more zerg based guides in the future, because thatd just be extremely awesome for us zerg players ^^
On April 07 2009 13:24 Day[9] wrote: look for it tomorrow!
Are they getting uploaded today or should I stop refreshing my page lol
I think Day's on Pacific time, so let's give him another couple of hours before we get the torches and pitchforks.
By the way, Day[9], I had a quick question about your ZvT build for mech. You mention getting the second gas "when it feels right." Do you have in mind that the initial hydralisks should be produced on 1 gas only, or should the second gas be timed to get those hydras out slightly faster? From playing around with this build, it seems like the hydras finish immediately before e.g. 2 port wraith shows up, with only one gas, so my inclination would be to delay the second gas until perhaps slightly after lair. Is there anything wrong with my reasoning?
The concept of playing worse players sorta reminds me of piano.
In piano, you can really stunt your growth by practicing pieces beyond your ability. This is what I used to do by playing only prokofiev sonatas, chopin etudes, etc.
My piano teacher eventually pointed out that my abilities were really lopsided. Since I never played easier pieces, I couldn't sight read and couldn't "think on my feet" -- I could only play out of rote practice.
The fastest, most efficient way to improve at piano is to throw in a variety of challenging and easy pieces, because both will teach you different skill sets.
On April 09 2009 18:20 Lobbo wrote: So how do a D/D+ player find a WORSE player? kinda hard gogo barrier break -.-
disagree. i think there is a huge variety of skill at D to D+
It's hard to find someone worse that play rather standard instead of cannon rush/sunken rush (colo) or chees you to the brink of insanity. But at the moment I'm stuck I can't skill past D+ to C-
D/D+/C- is already filled with smurfing higher level players, you dont need to encourage ppl to play against the lesser palyers, i assure you way too many people do that already.
Just damn, you cant imagine how bad is to lose when you are doin things quite ok, you trick your opponent but you didnt kill him and will roll you cuz has better macro and timing... Or just get smashed to the ground by a strong buildorder that you never played against, adn you dont need to pracitce against against it because at your level nobody uses it... I'm so pissed right now, how can you give advices that actually hurt most of the community/players? (most of the ppl are on low levels)
Here's my personal example. I'm usually C- (once reached C for a short time, doesnt matter), i easely beat 80% of the D/D+ players, but i cant get to C- anytime soon because i keep meeting very good players who are rolling me over time and time again. Maybe with 15-20 loss i reach C-. When i get rolled on D/D+ level i ask for hihgest rank, many times the answer is B- or C/C+, if they answer at all, some ppl are ashamed of smurfing. And this isnt at the start of the season.... It's ok to lose some games even at ranks which are lower than yours but making long loss streaks on D+ it's just annoying. Maybe i'm too unlucky and meet too many smurfing players, but i really fed up with them. Even when i'm D i many times enter D+ games when they allow to get trough D quickly.
On April 09 2009 22:02 Geo.Rion wrote: damn you day[9]!!!
D/D+/C- is already filled with smurfing higher level players, you dont need to encourage ppl to play against the lesser palyers, i assure you way too many people do that already.
Just damn, you cant imagine how bad is to lose when you are doin things quite ok, you trick your opponent but you didnt kill him and will roll you cuz has better macro and timing... Or just get smashed to the ground by a strong buildorder that you never played against, adn you dont need to pracitce against against it because at your level nobody uses it... I'm so pissed right now, how can you give advices that actually hurt most of the community/players? (most of the ppl are on low levels)
Here's my personal example. I'm usually C- (once reached C for a short time, doesnt matter), i easely beat 80% of the D/D+ players, but i cant get to C- anytime soon because i keep meeting very good players who are rolling me over time and time again. Maybe with 15-20 loss i reach C-. When i get rolled on D/D+ level i ask for hihgest rank, many times the answer is B- or C/C+, if they answer at all, some ppl are ashamed of smurfing. And this isnt at the start of the season.... It's ok to lose some games even at ranks which are lower than yours but making long loss streaks on D+ it's just annoying. Maybe i'm too unlucky and meet too many smurfing players, but i really fed up with them. Even when i'm D i many times enter D+ games when they allow to get trough D quickly.
not to bring another thread into this, but an E rating on iccup might solve this. smurfers would have another choice without directly hurting the lowest level of players.
Well there's nothing wrong with what Day[9] is saying. The only problem is that now people will be thinking "dude you mean I'm actually improving while bashing noobs? damn I should do that more often, it's really fun anyways!" which is quite the opposite of what Day[9] is trying to say : ).
On the other hand, those who follow Day's advice will ultimately increase the variety of gamestyles at higher levels.
On April 09 2009 22:10 Hammy wrote: Well there's nothing wrong with what Day[9] is saying. The only problem is that now people will be thinking "dude you mean I'm actually improving while bashing noobs? damn I should do that more often, it's really fun anyways!" which is quite the opposite of what Day[9] is trying to say : ).
On the other hand, those who follow Day's advice will ultimately increase the variety of gamestyles at higher levels.
downloading. these are gold. though I think I won't really get any new ideas from this I do always enjoy hearing people who knows lots about sc talk about it ^^
Great podcast. I do this all the time when trying out a new build or a map that i not comfortable with or when I need to boost my confidence after a couple of losses, it really helps.
Well I liked the podcast as usual, but after spending a few minutes on iCCup today, I think the effects are showing. Day, you'd damn well better do your next cast on "What to do when you're getting crushed all day by 300 APM D players"
On April 10 2009 00:18 threepool wrote: Well I liked the podcast as usual, but after spending a few minutes on iCCup today, I think the effects are showing. Day, you'd damn well better do your next cast on "What to do when you're getting crushed all day by 300 APM D players"
On April 10 2009 00:18 threepool wrote: Well I liked the podcast as usual, but after spending a few minutes on iCCup today, I think the effects are showing. Day, you'd damn well better do your next cast on "What to do when you're getting crushed all day by 300 APM D players"
Hehe, But i actually don't think the best idea is to stomp D players if you're already a high ranked player. When I need to check a strat or warmup or something i can borrow a friends C C+ account for my tests. Its still against lesser players but its better than D because they actually do some strategies the correct way, no offence^^
On March 25 2009 06:43 Day[9] wrote: anyone bashing hotkeys/mouse control are dead wrong.
i spent months reworking how i held my mouse and how to improve my keyboard for accuracy purposes. I have tons of exercises that will be included in future audios. literally ANY question that you have about starcraft is likely a legitimate one so KEEP ASKING THEM PLEASE!!! : ]
Might I suggest this as a good starting place for the podcast you owe us noobs after that last one Any tricks or shortcuts to get the supply/base/macro/mechanic (I'm trying to to say APM here) stuff a little faster then the standard "just play a lot of games" answer related would, I think, be welcome to those of us looking to climb high high enough that "resetting to D" actually means something Bonus for me if you make it Zerg related (drones!!!) but I understand you try to keep it meta.
As others have said, those of us at D get into our own "logical corners" when we get stomped by all the smurfing even if you think (and argue persuasively) that it is legit. And since there isn't really much we can do at this point to get our confidence back, I think the above may be helpful along another axis.
i was wondering if you can give some advice how to get use to use macro keys like f2f3f4 or hotkeying 1 factory or gate,as a terran player i can never get use to using those methods of f keys and just macroing like 4t5t6v7v8v or something similar i just go to my base and click my factories or barracks and ithink thats too slow and i get behind somehow
On April 10 2009 03:29 ZzZzAnG wrote: i was wondering if you can give some advice how to get use to use macro keys like f2f3f4 or hotkeying 1 factory or gate,as a terran player i can never get use to using those methods of f keys and just macroing like 4t5t6v7v8v or something similar i just go to my base and click my factories or barracks and ithink thats too slow and i get behind somehow
I dont think there's much that can be said to help you with that. That's got alot more to do with muscle memory.
Question 1: What is the best way of keeping your hands and wrists in good shape to be able to play without getting too sore? Alternately, how in the world did you manage to play even 4 hours a day, let alone 12, without getting killed by RSI?
Question 2: What questions should one ask oneself to determine what race they would most enjoy playing?
On April 10 2009 03:29 ZzZzAnG wrote: i was wondering if you can give some advice how to get use to use macro keys like f2f3f4 or hotkeying 1 factory or gate,as a terran player i can never get use to using those methods of f keys and just macroing like 4t5t6v7v8v or something similar i just go to my base and click my factories or barracks and ithink thats too slow and i get behind somehow
From what I remember, Jaedong often only hotkeys one hatchery if there's a cluster, and goes to that screen and selects the larva from all those hatcheries with the mouse.
You kinda need to switch screens and select production factories for protoss and terran because there's no way you will be able to control your units effectively by using up too many hotkeys for production buildings, nor will you even be able to hotkey a meaningful number of production buildings anyway. If you watch some FPVODs of progamers, you see that they all click on their buildings like madmen, especially in the typical bio TvZ.
So you switching screens to click your stuff is the right way to go about it, but you should get accustomed to assigning an F key to your building cluster or a hotkey to one of the buildings in the cluster or something.
On April 10 2009 03:55 Shadowfury333 wrote: Question 1: What is the best way of keeping your hands and wrists in good shape to be able to play without getting too sore? Alternately, how in the world did you manage to play even 4 hours a day, let alone 12, without getting killed by RSI?
Question 2: What questions should one ask oneself to determine what race they would most enjoy playing?
you wanna see armys melting under your units fire even though you have inferior force, or like turtinlin? --> Terran
youn wanna send shittone of units with shitton of HP and like aoe spells + static defense >-> Protoss
Well, I think that this isn't just saying "all you C+ players go smurf D level kekeke". I mean, this advice can apply to anyone who's not JUST starting out, because there's a lower tier of players for anyone even around D+.
On April 10 2009 02:58 n.DieJokes wrote: Man I can't wait for sc2 when I can apply this advice....
Unless SC2 AMM is total shit, you should be playing against players pretty close in skill to yourself. Hopefully they fix the abuse that plagues the current war3 AMM.
Wow, I love your recordings. This is some really insightful, unique stuff. If you were to pair up with Nick doing english commentary, that would be a combo that just couldn't be beat.
I've been wondering this for quite a while and I've had some experience with it though I've never fully tested it out; how to control the game. You have already put out a podcast on "how to win with advantage" where u talked all about how you "seal the deal" to put it. But I want to know if there is something more to it that makes you able to "control the game".
I figure this question is really vague and impossible to answer -- well "being better" is not quite the answer I'm looking for. I've listened to all your casts and through out em all I keep hearing small bits of answer but I can't say it clearly popped up into my head just yet -- maybe because there just is no secret to it? Really, if you knew how to control the game you would not be losing right?
Ok so while typing this (lol) I figure (again) that I might have to rephrase the question "how to make the game play out as you want" ok that sounds better let me just give you an example. You talked about a game at requiem where the protoss went for a fast zealot build and cut off your ramp - in a sense he chosed how the game was going to play out from that point, microoriented and gave you an ultimatium - break out or die. While you could have dropped you killed off the defense and from there -- you controlled the game. I want to know if you have any general tips on how you make the other player always have to adjust to YOUR style and not vice versa, always giving him the tough options and giving you the shortcuts, screwing with his mindset. Almost every game that I really felt like "shit I got owned" the other player had this advantage. Is there a secret in genral to this or is it that the other player outplayed the other?
Lol I realized that I came to a few conclusions myself but ran into some new questions while typing this down. (its late here)
Perhaps you can make sense of this, if not just leave it be.
On April 10 2009 03:55 Shadowfury333 wrote: Question 1: What is the best way of keeping your hands and wrists in good shape to be able to play without getting too sore? Alternately, how in the world did you manage to play even 4 hours a day, let alone 12, without getting killed by RSI?
Question 2: What questions should one ask oneself to determine what race they would most enjoy playing?
you wanna see armys melting under your units fire even though you have inferior force, or like turtinlin? --> Terran
youn wanna send shittone of units with shitton of HP and like aoe spells + static defense >-> Protoss
If not you are a Zerg player
More like this, if you like massive firepower and Boxer chose terran.
If you like dark templar and faggoty play, tho protoss have MANTOSS I give u that much, chose protoss.
If you like mass units that never end and aliens, chose zerg.
Well, my actual advice is to find something you like. For instance, Boxer chose Terran because he liked to use dropship strategies. If you have an idea like that in mind, I feel like you'll be happier with your choice in the end.
I think there are some koreans listening to Day[9]. I just played a B korean zerg... and I'm D. He came by the D channel and started asking people for games.
On April 10 2009 08:16 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: I've been wondering this for quite a while and I've had some experience with it though I've never fully tested it out; how to control the game. You have already put out a podcast on "how to win with advantage" where u talked all about how you "seal the deal" to put it. But I want to know if there is something more to it that makes you able to "control the game".
I figure this question is really vague and impossible to answer -- well "being better" is not quite the answer I'm looking for. I've listened to all your casts and through out em all I keep hearing small bits of answer but I can't say it clearly popped up into my head just yet -- maybe because there just is no secret to it? Really, if you knew how to control the game you would not be losing right?
Ok so while typing this (lol) I figure (again) that I might have to rephrase the question "how to make the game play out as you want" ok that sounds better let me just give you an example. You talked about a game at requiem where the protoss went for a fast zealot build and cut off your ramp - in a sense he chosed how the game was going to play out from that point, microoriented and gave you an ultimatium - break out or die. While you could have dropped you killed off the defense and from there -- you controlled the game. I want to know if you have any general tips on how you make the other player always have to adjust to YOUR style and not vice versa, always giving him the tough options and giving you the shortcuts, screwing with his mindset. Almost every game that I really felt like "shit I got owned" the other player had this advantage. Is there a secret in genral to this or is it that the other player outplayed the other?
Lol I realized that I came to a few conclusions myself but ran into some new questions while typing this down. (its late here)
Perhaps you can make sense of this, if not just leave it be.
Btw sweet podcasts can't wait for the next one!
Well, I think that if you want to do something like that, you have to plan it out before the game. For instance, if you go 2-hatch muta, he usually has to morph his first two high templar into an archon. If you think about his reactions to your moves, and plan your next move based on that, I think you could end up "controlling the game" like you say. Still, I'm too much of a chobo to be sure.
On April 10 2009 03:55 Shadowfury333 wrote: Question 1: What is the best way of keeping your hands and wrists in good shape to be able to play without getting too sore? Alternately, how in the world did you manage to play even 4 hours a day, let alone 12, without getting killed by RSI?
Question 2: What questions should one ask oneself to determine what race they would most enjoy playing?
take regular breaks like either 5 mins after 30 mins or 10 mins after an hour. Get up let your blood circulate, stretch like wrists, shoulders, etc, when you play try to play with good posture,
On April 10 2009 12:11 Ilikestarcraft wrote:take regular breaks like either 5 mins after 30 mins or 10 mins after an hour. Get up let your blood circulate, stretch like wrists, shoulders, etc, when you play try to play with good posture,
This is a good system. My 1 minute rest every 5 minutes didn't work very well. (my opponent expanded and built up an army and stuff, wtf?)
Thank you for your latest podcast (Why you should play against worse players). As usual, this is amazing advice.
I also completely agree with your game improvement philosophy. You explain logically and clearly why using a controlled trial and error method is very effective.
Keep up the good work! Looking forward to your future podcasts!
I think another important reason why one needs to ocassionally play against weaker players is to actually win a game from time to time. While playing better players is good and advised, it is hard to keep your morale high and keep going if all you see ahead of you is more defeats and failures. Basically, you need to at least steal a win from time to time in order to preserve your sanity.
I'm going to repeat myself, but I want a podcast on mechanics! Where to put your f keys, whether to use, how to keep your screen "moving" or "flashing" or whatever.
Day[9], you really need to put these together, and consider publishing an audiobook. This stuff is pure gold, especially for people like us who are on the lower end of the ladder. Your content is just 100% awesome, and I think a text version of it would not go to waste as well. Maybe we should transcribe this stuff and make a giant theory post in the strategy section?
On April 12 2009 10:31 riptide wrote: Day[9], you really need to put these together, and consider publishing an audiobook. This stuff is pure gold, especially for people like us who are on the lower end of the ladder. Your content is just 100% awesome, and I think a text version of it would not go to waste as well. Maybe we should transcribe this stuff and make a giant theory post in the strategy section?
Some transcripts for some of the episodes are lying around. He should edit them into the OP but I guess he hasn't gotten around to it yet.
"Why you should play against worse players to make yourself more comfortable to bring your game to another level." This just makes me wonder - Does this apply for Jaedong on a day to day basis?
On April 13 2009 04:38 MutaDoom wrote: "Why you should play against worse players to make yourself more comfortable to bring your game to another level." This just makes me wonder - Does this apply for Jaedong on a day to day basis?
Ofc it would, he's a normal person, with higher skill than us.
Again an awesome podcast, you should also do more commetaries btw, the amount of insight you provide is beyond awesome. thx man
Also i am trying your approach to learn a new map, i.e. resetting and climbing back to my normal c- level. I noticed d-players are very very bad mannered. Won a couple of games now and got a f*** you and mother f***cker in each of them.
On April 14 2009 05:49 Gnojfatelob wrote:Also i am trying your approach to learn a new map, i.e. resetting and climbing back to my normal c- level. I noticed d-players are very very bad mannered. Won a couple of games now and got a f*** you and mother f***cker in each of them.
This happens on the Go server I play on as well. Below a certain level, (say, 15k) there's just too many kids, and you really get the full spectrum of nasty behavior and bad sportsmanship. I had a D iCCup player beat me recently when I experimented with a weird ling rush and he just followed me around for a while saying stuff like "LOL THE POINT OF THE GAME IS TO WIN RETARD"
On April 14 2009 05:49 Gnojfatelob wrote: I noticed d-players are very very bad mannered. Won a couple of games now and got a f*** you and mother f***cker in each of them.
Ironic post considering your name.
Eagerly awaiting the next ep as well, great stuff to put on ye ole' iPod. =)
To Day[9] : You once said you needed people to motivate you to keep doing this. Hands down, these audio casts have been the main thing that rekindled my interest in bettering my starcraft skills. Ive played a little under a year and have just climbed to a c- rank. It seems like the more I learn, the more I realize starcraft isn't the same builds over and over again. The originality comes in SO many ways and i feel your casts allow me to continue thinking on a theoretical level(instead of mindless mechanical improvement.) No one could do it like you KEEP THEM COMING!!!
Also I just wanted to add I really appreciate how you go through the theory and then provide a specific example showing the use of the theory. The examples you use really help drive the theory home.
It's been said before but once again, thanks a lot for those podcasts Day[9]! They're very helpful.
But by listening to these podcasts, the game feels a lot simpler. Just like you said in your last podcast, players with playstyles that once felt very strong against me suddenly feel weak and sluggish and it's almost effortless for me to beat them thanks to utilizing your advice, my winratio went from 40% to 70% on one rank higher in a very short period of time and now players are asking me for "best rank" and get pissed when they hear a low one :p. Every action I do now feels a lot more powerful, and when I get to lategame it feels like I've already won.
---
On your last podcast you talked about how you practiced all the way from D until you felt very comfortable with Peaks. I think it would be interesting if you made a podcast dedicated to practice time. Something that goes over planning the time you use for playing starcraft to practice, what kind of breaks do you take during long practice sessions, when do you analyze your replays - during a practice session after each game? in the end of the set? are single player maps viable to practice specific things faster, like muta micro for instance?
Many times people say it's a good idea to take a break for a while and return to playing later, and that it'll help you improve. What are your thoughts on that? Maybe there's some core element in practice that taking a break activates, but can also be activated in another way to get the same result (faster)?
It's obvious that the more you practice, the faster you improve. But some people clearly improve faster than others in equal frames of time. Those people probably use the things you already talked about - building specific triggered actions that work well, testing tactics on various levels of players to fine tune, etc, but even amongst those who improve faster there are different levels. What is the correct way to handle your practice time, or maybe it doesn't matter how spread your practice around and it all comes down to playing a lot while remembering to use all your best mind techniques until you can win consistently?
I just wanted to say Thanks for the awesome podcasts, they are very informative. I really like how you structure your 'lectures' with theory followed by examples, and how your comments always inspire me to think about the situations by myself
I'm quite new to competitive Starcraft, but I can imagine players of all levels enjoying (and learning from) these podcasts!
I would really really like you to explain how to approach the new 'fantasy' build that fantasy used in the recent proleague match against jaedong and the varation he used in the first medusa game of the finals.
I can't rely on just mutas like jaedong, how is the best way to approach it. The standard varations are two factory push with 4 rax + 1 starport or 6 rax-1fact/2port. Both varations are giving me trouble. It seems like terran is unkillable and has many many different timings they can press me. Each game seems so different that having a laidout plan or reactions or even attempting to force terran to react doesn't seem to work very clearly. I know its a complicated/brilliant playstyle.
Can i ask that you change the banner :S? The background is close to pink, the ipod is gay and you have an expression like youre staring at some huge ass. Which might be great for some fangirl site but it just makes me spam page down out of embarassment.
On April 21 2009 13:01 Cloud wrote: Can i ask that you change the banner :S? The background is close to pink, the ipod is gay and you have an expression like youre staring at some huge ass. Which might be great for some fangirl site but it just makes me spam page down out of embarassment.
Thanks!
Yes!! please spend your time making banners and not making casts. That would be great. Hey! can you just make banners about projects that would be cool to do?
Just discovered these podcasts and I'm really enjoying listening to them.
I really have to agree with the one on Redundancy and Purpose - I think that it's so easy for players, like myself, to get a bit too caught up in the whole dynamic build, flexible strategy and reactive counter mentality, which can really lead to a loss of purpose and redundant decisions.
It can be so easy to over-react to an event in SC, like when getting harassed by mutas, the temptation can be to just spam sairs and goons; when really, the Zerg player was just doing that little bit of harassment with a few mutas while waiting to send in lurkers and lings - effectively making your extreme anti-air response redundant.
I liked your "important building" hotkey idea as zerg. I'll definitely be doing that.
While listening to this, I realized for the first time how much the "M" placement sucks on an azerty keyboard (it's to the right of the "L" rather than next to the "N"). Besides that everything is pretty similar though.
AZER QSDF WXCV instead of QWER ASDF ZXCV For a zerg, S is always central, and the A placement is actually pretty good right under the hotkey numbers. Though i'm sure this has already been discussed countless times in other threads
Great cast by the way. I really like how the casts are extremely basic in their form, but really get you thinking, and cover many deeper concepts that way. They're appropriate for many different levels of players without being overwhelming for newbies. You obviously put lots of work into making it understandable by all audiences. I'm not talking about this cast in particular though, this one does exactly what it's supposed to: gives mechanic guidelines. Can't wait for the next one!
i actually didn't know about the 'enhanced pointer precision'. That shit was fucking with me all the time and I always wondered why my mouse moved so far across the screen!
I have a question here, and this is really holding back my play.
I'm a D player but pretty good in ZvP, I beat D+ players and can often challange C- players in ZvP. The match up is so clear for me. Get hydras and a few mutas. Deny his 3rd. Exp alot. Switch to ultra-ling. Win.
But in ZvT I get SO SO lost. From time to time it isn't even funny. I set there and just feel confused for some reason. I set up a game plan. 3hat mutas, lurkerling and then end the game with ultraling, spiced with lurkers. I know what I need to do to win, but I still get really confused and stressed out AS SOON as I see his MnM army move out. I lose my micro AND my macro. Sometimes I go up to 2k minerals, then add 3 hatches just to get rid of minerals and then he runs me over.
So quite a big build up for this seemingly basic question: Have you ever been in a situation where you just feel that you're completely and utterly confused by a MU? And if so, what did you do to get out of it?
I've tried massgaming but it just doesn't get better.
Though when you talked about hotkeys it made me start wondering about mine.. I play Terran and my hotkeys are the same ones i used when i used to play Protoss but i think sometimes they dont work as they should 1) dropships/vessels 2/5/6/7) Unit hotkeys 3/4) buildings 8/9/0)scanners
yeah they are kind of similar to the ones you mentioned but do you think i should change them?
I'm know you didn't pick this topic to talk about because I asked for it but thank you anyway I'm a new player and this stuff is what I'm trying to get better at because I really don't want to rely on gimmicks and I'm convinced that mechanics are what determine that outcome of most of the games I play (not so much, perhaps, in ZvZ even at D levels.)
In fact, I've actually noticed a stronger correlation between "Macro APM" in bwchart and who wins the game than between the winner and overall APM.
Hearing explicitly things that took me years to learn and reinforcing my good habits (Like, binded (bound?) unit groups with two hands for about 4 years, then one hand w/ thumb and middle for a 2 yrs, then just recently like you said).
Can anyone go into more detail about the putting pressure on the bone in the lower corner of your hand? I'm not sure I followed that in the audio. A text or better still text+picture explanation would be appreciated.
On April 23 2009 02:48 FirstBorn wrote: Just listened it, it was great. Even if I was using most of the stuff you mentioned already, it was great to see you're using these too.
All your podcasts are insightful, thanks.
Hm, I kinda felt more disappointed that I already do all of this right, but still my mechanics are horrible. No quick fix for slow hands I guess. :/
sir, im always impressed with your willingness to help others get better, thank you.
but i have a question for everyone. I've had vista for over a year, and ive always played with "enhance pointer percision" on. at the fastest speed. i listend though, and i switched it. i find that its FASTER for sure, so i could turn it down about 3 notches to get what im used to as far as speed.
can you give a brief explanation of what this does? why its better for starcraft to be OFF? i mean, its different, and i really cant tell why- but im trusting the pro here. it certinaly hasnt been detrimental to my game againt a couple computers. what am i doing by taking that off? THANK YOU in advance for answers.
To completely remove mouse acceleration from XP, you will need to go into the registry and adjust the SmoothmouseXYCurve values. Here is how its done.
1. Click Start button 2. Select Run 3. Type 'regedit' in the open textbox 4. Open the tree 'HKEY_CURRENT_USER', select control panel, then select mouse 5. Right clicking, modify the SmoothMouseXCurve and SmoothMouseYCurve hexidecimal values to the following:
On April 23 2009 02:08 Strayline wrote: Can anyone go into more detail about the putting pressure on the bone in the lower corner of your hand? I'm not sure I followed that in the audio. A text or better still text+picture explanation would be appreciated.
here it is on the Hand, just between wrist and hand. + Show Spoiler +
here is a great shot of FBH with a mark right there, from playing 20 hours a day. + Show Spoiler +
I cheked my finger positioning and found out that i group my untits the same way you do, but when i have to group mutalisks and shift+add mutas or larvae or ovie or anything i make that move you strongly contra-idicated, using my thumb to press down the ctrl key (and the shift key). How do you manage your mutas? You use the left pinky in this case too? for both keys?
Thanks for this mechanic podcast, i hope you could asnwer my additional question
Good straightforward talk. I don't recall you talking much about diffrent mice and grips though. I would recommend this article by razor: http://www2.razerzone.com/MouseGuide/html/advantages.php The samosa is pretty much THE SC mouse to have for many, and people should understand why.
Great Podcast again Day[9]! I have always been interested in mouse control/accuracy so I knew allot already although the problem I am having is that my Desktop sensitivity IS NOT THE SAME as in Starcraft. So I can practice all I want on my desktop as soon as i go into starcraft its a fucking disaster again. I think this is because of the resolution changes from 1680x1050 to 640x480. My mouse becomes way way faster when i start starcraft, do you guys have this problem or is it just me and what could i do about it ? And yes I have mouse acceleration completely disabled .
Ziph: chaos plugin has an option to change your mouse sensitivity when starcraft is running. also since the chaosplugin settings are shared between chaos launcher and iccup launcher, you can configure that in CL and still have it work on iccup.
but what does the "enhance pointer precision" off do? i read something about it moving exactly with each pixel, rather than in bigger blocks. since the resolution of starcraft is smaller, is this why we change it?
When you move your mouse distance x it will move the cursor distance y regardless of the speed you moved the mouse.
When enhance pointer precision is on:
When you move your mouse distance x it will move the cursor distance y, as a function of the speed you moved the mouse. The faster you moved the mouse, the greater distance y becomes.
This is a classic example of how enhancement is actualy a worsening feature. The precisision is never enhanced, it is worsened when the mouse is moved with a greater speed.
acceleration means that it will move the pointer more when you move your mouse fast than when you move your mouse slow. This makes it kinda hard to get really good at moving your mouse precisely.
Thanks a lot for the audio! As a beginning player with only some WC3 experience, this was extremely helpful to me. I'll make sure to think of ways to use my keyboard more efficiently =)
WOW this is FIRE without acceleration, totally different feeling !!! Great stuff, always thought it's already switched off by unchecking it in the options TT... so these are the secrets of better micro huh ?
thank you so much for you answering my questions, i see what you mean. if youre trying to go faster and faster, you dont need to worry about compensating distances. this is much better for your muscle memory.
<3333333333 Day[9]! - Your voice is awesome - Your knowledge is awesome - Podcasts are .mp3's, iPod here they come! - Your main is Zerg - and some more! Thank you!
On April 23 2009 04:57 tarpman wrote: Ziph: chaos plugin has an option to change your mouse sensitivity when starcraft is running. also since the chaosplugin settings are shared between chaos launcher and iccup launcher, you can configure that in CL and still have it work on iccup.
This doesn't help at all, I want exactly the same mouse sensivity in scbw and desktop this you only have 10 options with chaos.
I tried changing the mouse registry settings but on the right side there are some other symbols that look like: .......... .n....... .@...... )U....... ..(.......
whenever i try to modify the smoothmousex and y curve "hexidecimal values" these get modified/erased partially too O.o is this supposed to happen? i dont want to fuck up my comp, so any help would be greatly appreciated also day9s podcasts are awesome as usual
For macroing, you advocate hatchery hotkeys of using your ring finger for s and your index finger on 5-9. I find this extremely uncomfortable and impractical; my middle finger feel very awkward and lacks room to rest, hitting sd is awkward at best, and my index finger does not comfortably reach any further than 7.
I know you say that you should use whatever works for you as long as it's logical, but my problem is that I can't find any such set up that my short fingers can actually do (you say you can hit #sz all the way from 5 to 0, I'm only able to do it comfortably for 5 and 6 and not able to do it at all higher than 7).
Currently I use 4-0 as hatcheries with my ring finger resting on s, but as I have found no good way to hit 7-0 s whatever with my left hand, I usually bring over my right hand to hit the number keys above 6 when I go to macro. I imagine you think this is horrible, but I really haven't been able to find anything that's comfortable.
I don't know how well day[9] remembers but back in 2002 we played alot of games together as we developed our playstyles and hotkey systems. It is no coincidences that we use identical keys. We did spend some time back then while playing zvz's and watching replays talking about hand placements so I feel I can answer some of your questions for you.
The reason 7-0 feel very ackward to you is because you are not lifting your hand. My hands are just large enough to palm a basketball and on my keyboard I cannot hit 7sh8sh9sh0sh without my hand having to contort very badly. The answer is that you hit 7sd8sd9sd0sd by lifting your hand hiting the number key with your index and then sliding back to your ring finger on S positioning. It isn't possible for a regular sized hand person to hit 5sd6sd7sd8sd9sd0sd without lifting there hands.
I think this podcast did alot of good and you did a great job sean(!!!) but I do think it failed to inform alot of players that need to know that you simply cannot play a hotkey based macro game without lifting your hand, unless you did what day[9] calls 'noob' and decide to always click on the unit picture.
Lift your hand. Lift your hand Lifting your (Palm just above and a little below the spacebar) is the only way to move 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a8a and do 5sd6sd7sd8sd9sd.
As you gain confidence in your hotkey setup that 'pivot bone' in your left hand just becomes a 'home row' hand position, it does not mean that you are not lifting your hand all the way up at times and moving it.
4-0 is hard because as a zerg player even if you go lings -> scourge -> hydra you will quickly run out of keys for units. Also ZvZ you just do not have enough room for muta/ling/scourge before you begin to throw off your 'mechnical' hotkey flow.
I don't know how well day[9] remembers but back in 2002 we played alot of games together as we developed our playstyles and hotkey systems. It is no coincidences that we use identical keys. We did spend some time back then while playing zvz's and watching replays talking about hand placements so I feel I can answer some of your questions for you.
The reason 7-0 feel very awkward to you is because you are not lifting your hand. My hands are just large enough to palm a basketball and on my keyboard I cannot hit 7sh8sh9sh0sh without my hand having to contort very badly. The answer is that you hit 7sd8sd9sd0sd by lifting your hand hitting the number key with your index and then sliding back to your ring finger on S positioning. It isn't possible for a regular sized hand person to hit 5sd6sd7sd8sd9sd0sd without lifting their hands.
I think this podcast did a lot of good and you did a great job sean(!!!) but I do think it failed to inform a lot of players that need to know that you simply cannot play a hotkey based macro game without lifting your hand, unless you did what day[9] calls 'noob' and decide to always click on the unit picture.
Lift your hand. Lift your hand Lifting your (Palm just above and a little below the spacebar) is the only way to move 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a8a and do 5sd6sd7sd8sd9sd.
As you gain confidence in your hotkey setup that 'pivot bone' in your left hand just because a 'home row' hand position, it does not mean that you are not lifting your hand all the way up at times and moving it.
4-0 is hard because as a zerg player even if you go lings -> scourge -> hydra you will quickly run out of keys for units. Also ZvZ you just do not have enough room for muta/ling/scourge before you begin to throw off your 'mechanical' hotkey flow.
If this doesn't help let me know!
So basically moving your entire hand to the right to hit each number key and then moving back to hit s whatever? I am not even able to do that very well even while looking at my keyboard, is it just a matter of practice? The quickest solution is probably to drop the illusion that I'll ever improve passed D with zerg
A little unrelated, but since you mention ZvZ (which happens to be the only matchup I am decent at), I was curious as to what I should aim for in terms of building placement in that matchup. Right now I usually put my pool under my extractor but other than that I have no set ideas on placements. Thoughts?
Yes you move your entire hand. Only a couple of inches. View your keyboard , esp your macroing as a piano, together with planing you can create and orchestra minons of zerg units and flood the map with your units. It takes some practice yes, but once you do at any given time you have the potential of creating 18 units (assuming no scourge or lings) every 36 seconds (sean says larva spawn in 13 seconds but by my counting its 12) or 39 seconds.
Realize the power of 5sh6sh7sh8sh9sh0sh. That is over 30 hydra per minute from an action sequence that once you master will take no more then 3 seconds (2 1/2 seconds is optimal).
I never place my pool under my gas. On alot of maps this will actually slow down your mining time. The optimal place for a sunken colony on any gas that is above you is directly beneath your gas (on the left side to avoid disrupting mining) or 1 tile down touching your hatchery. The reasoning for this is that you will be able to right click your drones on your extractor and quickly drone spread to protect your colony. See Jaedong vs lucifier on colo, where jaedong places his colony is optimal. Then you can build a sim city where your pool and hatchery are all covered by that single sunken.
1 sunken should easily cover all buildings in a zerg vs zerg. Also 12pool in zvz so my second hat in going at my natural, if I have to cancel it, I place it immediately on the right side of my hatchery (think 9 or 6 on python) This way my single sunken by the extractor covers them both easily. This is how I do it. If you place it beneath your main hatchery in both positions then you will be able to mine better on the lower patches but for me the draw back is defending and shifting lings, I really don't like defending in that situation.
On April 23 2009 15:31 AttackZerg wrote: Crunchums,
Yes you move your entire hand. Only a couple of inches. View your keyboard , esp your macroing as a piano, together with planing you can create and orchestra minons of zerg units and flood the map with your units. It takes some practice yes, but once you do at any given time you have the potential of creating 18 units (assuming no scourge or lings) every 36 seconds (sean says larva spawn in 13 seconds but by my counting its 12) or 39 seconds.
Realize the power of 5sh6sh7sh8sh9sh0sh. That is over 30 hydra per minute from an action sequence that once you master will take no more then 3 seconds (2 1/2 seconds is optimal).
I never place my pool under my gas. On alot of maps this will actually slow down your mining time. The optimal place for a sunken colony on any gas that is above you is directly beneath your gas (on the left side to avoid disrupting mining) or 1 tile down touching your hatchery. The reasoning for this is that you will be able to right click your drones on your extractor and quickly drone spread to protect your colony. See Jaedong vs lucifier on colo, where jaedong places his colony is optimal. Then you can build a sim city where your pool and hatchery are all covered by that single sunken.
1 sunken should easily cover all buildings in a zerg vs zerg. Also 12pool in zvz so my second hat in going at my natural, if I have to cancel it, I place it immediately on the right side of my hatchery (think 9 or 6 on python) This way my single sunken by the extractor covers them both easily. This is how I do it. If you place it beneath your main hatchery in both positions then you will be able to mine better on the lower patches but for me the draw back is defending and shifting lings, I really don't like defending in that situation.
Whenever I try and place a hatchery next to another hatchery the larvae move to block it at the last second >__> I wish there was a larvae trick to make them go right.
Thanks for the help, I will try playing with these new hotkeys now
On April 13 2009 04:38 MutaDoom wrote: "Why you should play against worse players to make yourself more comfortable to bring your game to another level." This just makes me wonder - Does this apply for Jaedong on a day to day basis?
This got me thinking; maybe the reason why it's hard for pros to to stay at the top is that there's nobody better than them for them to play against? So Flash is on top of the world and has nobody better to practice against, so he doesn't realize not to 14CC XD
I've been using mouse acceleration for as long as the feature has existed. Even though everyone always told me how bad it was for gaming, I was stubborn and refused to change. After listening to this podcast, I finally turned it off (and used that registry change too). Your podcasts are very compelling.
On April 23 2009 15:31 AttackZerg wrote: Crunchums,
Yes you move your entire hand. Only a couple of inches. View your keyboard , esp your macroing as a piano, together with planing you can create and orchestra minons of zerg units and flood the map with your units. It takes some practice yes, but once you do at any given time you have the potential of creating 18 units (assuming no scourge or lings) every 36 seconds (sean says larva spawn in 13 seconds but by my counting its 12) or 39 seconds.
Realize the power of 5sh6sh7sh8sh9sh0sh. That is over 30 hydra per minute from an action sequence that once you master will take no more then 3 seconds (2 1/2 seconds is optimal).
I never place my pool under my gas. On alot of maps this will actually slow down your mining time. The optimal place for a sunken colony on any gas that is above you is directly beneath your gas (on the left side to avoid disrupting mining) or 1 tile down touching your hatchery. The reasoning for this is that you will be able to right click your drones on your extractor and quickly drone spread to protect your colony. See Jaedong vs lucifier on colo, where jaedong places his colony is optimal. Then you can build a sim city where your pool and hatchery are all covered by that single sunken.
1 sunken should easily cover all buildings in a zerg vs zerg. Also 12pool in zvz so my second hat in going at my natural, if I have to cancel it, I place it immediately on the right side of my hatchery (think 9 or 6 on python) This way my single sunken by the extractor covers them both easily. This is how I do it. If you place it beneath your main hatchery in both positions then you will be able to mine better on the lower patches but for me the draw back is defending and shifting lings, I really don't like defending in that situation.
edit: I only know my timing because as I was typing it I was counting, I did it 5 times and beat 3 seconds everytime while only beating 2 seconds twice. I did it from where my hand would be in game.
Edit. 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a8a => 1.05 record time and 1.14 average with some around 1.26
5sh6sh7sh8sh9sh => .85 record time with .97 being the highest
For me it's not really the keyboard hotkeys that give me the most trouble in terms of mechanics. I will admit that I mouse click the icon for overlord and some of the upgrades I just don't use often enough to memorize the hotkeys but these are habits I'm trying to break and I'm getting better.
What I'm struggling more with is basic unit control. And I mean basic unit control. Not like "I can't dodge storms" or "I suck at muta micro vs control groups of MM" or "I'm slow at cloneing" all of which are true, but ironically things like my muta micro is improving faster than basic army organization.
The type of stuff I'm talking about is:
*I don't fill my control groups back up reliably. *I don't move out from my rally point. Or I move out only what I have hotkeyed. *Stuff gets lost under overlord clouds at rally points. * Drones + attack units + overlords at the same location. Ugh. *Having groups of scourge on hand and easily accessible to clone. *Sending in reinforcements intelligently. I generally try to use the minimap and run into the same problem day[9] mentioned with being off by a few pixels and missing the battle completely when I'm trying to do it as fast as possible. *No doubt other stuff as well. This is just what comes to mind in this moment. I'm sure there is stuff that is a problem that I don't even realize I'm doing.
The bottom line is I would love to get to the point where I can be one of those players that has a huge zerg army moving gracefully around the map constantly and brilliantly countering my opponents moves. And while I know I have a long way to go with the production/gamesense aspects of that goal, those two dimensions seem to be improving while the the keeping-a-big-ball-in-motion-and-setting-up-flanks part of the equation is pretty much non-existent at this point. It feels like I am much worse at this, than I am when it comes to production, gameplan, small scale micro or really almost any other aspect of the game.
Any day[9]-style feedback (how can I improve? what should I look for as mistakes? any tip or trick that particularly helped you with this? etc) on this topic would be appreciated.
On April 13 2009 04:38 MutaDoom wrote: "Why you should play against worse players to make yourself more comfortable to bring your game to another level." This just makes me wonder - Does this apply for Jaedong on a day to day basis?
This got me thinking; maybe the reason why it's hard for pros to to stay at the top is that there's nobody better than them for them to play against? So Flash is on top of the world and has nobody better to practice against, so he doesn't realize not to 14CC XD
To be honest, it's a possibility. It's hard to be innovative and crafty, making new strategies, when you can just beat everyone straight-up-standard. With that continuing standard play, you get predictable(Re: Flash 14cc), and become easier to beat, essentially ending your reign as champion.
nice episode day[9]. there are some exceptions, imo, where you can use the "mouse click" on an icon to your advantage even if you can hotkey it, but its never good to focus on small exceptions when teaching the general idea to people.
On April 24 2009 02:47 StylishVODs wrote: nice episode day[9]. there are some exceptions, imo, where you can use the "mouse click" on an icon to your advantage even if you can hotkey it, but its never good to focus on small exceptions when teaching the general idea to people.
On April 24 2009 02:47 StylishVODs wrote: nice episode day[9]. there are some exceptions, imo, where you can use the "mouse click" on an icon to your advantage even if you can hotkey it, but its never good to focus on small exceptions when teaching the general idea to people.
On April 24 2009 02:47 StylishVODs wrote: nice episode day[9]. there are some exceptions, imo, where you can use the "mouse click" on an icon to your advantage even if you can hotkey it, but its never good to focus on small exceptions when teaching the general idea to people.
i strongly strongly disagree
do you have an example of such an exception?
As a P
I cancel a building that's going to die, tap 4 which is my stargate hotkey, then .... how do I build the sair. I have to readjust my whole hand placement to build a sair.
Or what if I 1a to attack, pinky on a, retard finger on 1, then 4 to my gateway with my pointer, and I want to build a DT? Move my whole hand? I could DT with my thumb, but what if I wanted to build a goon with my gateway on 5, and a zealot on 6?
...
Still, I think being able to switch between keyboard stances would still be faster, you just have to be REALLY comfortable.
On April 24 2009 02:47 StylishVODs wrote: nice episode day[9]. there are some exceptions, imo, where you can use the "mouse click" on an icon to your advantage even if you can hotkey it, but its never good to focus on small exceptions when teaching the general idea to people.
i strongly strongly disagree
do you have an example of such an exception?
Example: TvP, I have my factoryhotkeys 4 5 6 7 8 9. When macroing tanks and vultures during a push without leaving the screen, its easier and faster to press 4t5t6789. 4 tank 5 tank 6 7 8 9 you click on the vultureicon with your mouse.
Visual example. Check 9:05 in this video. In this situation, using 4t5t6v7v8v9v would not only be harder but also not give me any advantage since i will not be able to micro with my mouse at the same time anyway and also i dont see how the macroround would be faster using the full hotkey macro. Edit: In this situation I actually only have 5 factories and 1 addon, but you get the point.
Practice it for half an hour and you'll find that it will take you about 1 second to macro the 6 factories and yet not lose focus of the action or important time.
There are more exceptions, however they are quite few, but its also quite obvious that they exist because of the keyboard layout.
This game was played at C- in the earlier stages of the ladder. However lets not get into if the opponent were good or if I played good but rather the use of this exception.
I'm having trouble getting my F keys to work properly. All of them start out bound to my main nexus, so pressing any of them brings my screen there. However, if I try to set one to another location, it does nothing, and the key still brings me back to my main nexus. Is pressing ctrl + Fkey the wrong way to set an F key, or am I doing something else wrong?
On April 24 2009 09:28 Eukarya wrote: I'm having trouble getting my F keys to work properly. All of them start out bound to my main nexus, so pressing any of them brings my screen there. However, if I try to set one to another location, it does nothing, and the key still brings me back to my main nexus. Is pressing ctrl + Fkey the wrong way to set an F key, or am I doing something else wrong?
Obviously a man of perfection such as myself does not need mechanics advice. But for other people, people who don't have the mechanics skill of Jaedong and Flash combined, I would like to thank you for making this podcast.
On April 24 2009 12:37 Zozma wrote: Obviously a man of perfection such as myself does not need mechanics advice. But for other people, people who don't have the mechanics skill of Jaedong and Flash combined, I would like to thank you for making this podcast.
Seriously, though, I do have a question: I mostly play Starcraft on a laptop. Does that: A. not matter B. change the way I need to think about hotkeys or C. need to stop?
On April 24 2009 12:37 Zozma wrote: Obviously a man of perfection such as myself does not need mechanics advice. But for other people, people who don't have the mechanics skill of Jaedong and Flash combined, I would like to thank you for making this podcast.
Seriously, though, I do have a question: I mostly play Starcraft on a laptop. Does that: A. not matter B. change the way I need to think about hotkeys or C. need to stop?
On April 24 2009 02:47 StylishVODs wrote: nice episode day[9]. there are some exceptions, imo, where you can use the "mouse click" on an icon to your advantage even if you can hotkey it, but its never good to focus on small exceptions when teaching the general idea to people.
i strongly strongly disagree
do you have an example of such an exception?
Example: TvP, I have my factoryhotkeys 4 5 6 7 8 9. When macroing tanks and vultures during a push without leaving the screen, its easier and faster to press 4t5t6789. 4 tank 5 tank 6 7 8 9 you click on the vultureicon with your mouse.
Visual example. Check 9:05 in this video. In this situation, using 4t5t6v7v8v9v would not only be harder but also not give me any advantage since i will not be able to micro with my mouse at the same time anyway and also i dont see how the macroround would be faster using the full hotkey macro. Edit: In this situation I actually only have 5 factories and 1 addon, but you get the point. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itiFjrs1wes
Practice it for half an hour and you'll find that it will take you about 1 second to macro the 6 factories and yet not lose focus of the action or important time.
There are more exceptions, however they are quite few, but its also quite obvious that they exist because of the keyboard layout.
This game was played at C- in the earlier stages of the ladder. However lets not get into if the opponent were good or if I played good but rather the use of this exception.
That literally NEVER occurred to me. I stand totally corrected. In fact, its kind of interesting that the macro you just described is the inverse of the way I macro w/ terran: You use the keyboard to select the buildings and the mouse to begin the unit. I use the mouse to select the building and the keyboard to make the unit. They necessarily take the same amount of time.
Thanks a million Day[9] these are great. With what little time i have to practice I'm already noticing a huge change and my practicing has gotten more efficent.
Hey there, Day[9] ! I just recently finished listening your latest awesome Audio Podcast(Mechanics) ^_^
I was curious where the solid bone (pivot point) is (as mentioned in Basics of Mechanics Part 1 on 1:19- 1:25). If it's okay, could you illustrate that where is it exactly ? Your reply would be much appreciated. Thanks
On April 25 2009 03:32 drinking wrote: Hey there, Day[9] ! I just recently finished listening your latest awesome Audio Podcast(Mechanics) ^_^
I was curious where the solid bone (pivot point) is (as mentioned in Basics of Mechanics Part 1 on 1:19- 1:25). If it's okay, could you illustrate that where is it exactly ? Your reply would be much appreciated. Thanks
-Cheers
cUrsOr actually answered this for me on page Edit: excuse me, 16.
On April 25 2009 03:32 drinking wrote: Hey there, Day[9] ! I just recently finished listening your latest awesome Audio Podcast(Mechanics) ^_^
I was curious where the solid bone (pivot point) is (as mentioned in Basics of Mechanics Part 1 on 1:19- 1:25). If it's okay, could you illustrate that where is it exactly ? Your reply would be much appreciated. Thanks
-Cheers
cUrsOr actually answered this for me on page Edit: excuse me, 16.
On April 24 2009 02:47 StylishVODs wrote: nice episode day[9]. there are some exceptions, imo, where you can use the "mouse click" on an icon to your advantage even if you can hotkey it, but its never good to focus on small exceptions when teaching the general idea to people.
i strongly strongly disagree
do you have an example of such an exception?
Example: TvP, I have my factoryhotkeys 4 5 6 7 8 9. When macroing tanks and vultures during a push without leaving the screen, its easier and faster to press 4t5t6789. 4 tank 5 tank 6 7 8 9 you click on the vultureicon with your mouse.
Visual example. Check 9:05 in this video. In this situation, using 4t5t6v7v8v9v would not only be harder but also not give me any advantage since i will not be able to micro with my mouse at the same time anyway and also i dont see how the macroround would be faster using the full hotkey macro. Edit: In this situation I actually only have 5 factories and 1 addon, but you get the point. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itiFjrs1wes
Practice it for half an hour and you'll find that it will take you about 1 second to macro the 6 factories and yet not lose focus of the action or important time.
There are more exceptions, however they are quite few, but its also quite obvious that they exist because of the keyboard layout.
This game was played at C- in the earlier stages of the ladder. However lets not get into if the opponent were good or if I played good but rather the use of this exception.
That literally NEVER occurred to me. I stand totally corrected. In fact, its kind of interesting that the macro you just described is the inverse of the way I macro w/ terran: You use the keyboard to select the buildings and the mouse to begin the unit. I use the mouse to select the building and the keyboard to make the unit. They necessarily take the same amount of time.
neato!
Both are useful. Using mouse for units and keyboard for factories is good when you don't want to move your screen back to your factories. Using mouse for factories and keyboard for units is required if you want to build from all your factories if you can't have them all hotkeyed.
4t5t6v7v8v9v is better because you will still be able to move the screen around or use the mini-map in the process of macroing. With enough practice, you can do it very quickly. I use middle finger on 4-6, pointer on t, pointer on 7-9, ring on v.
Day[9]: Really glad to see you're churning them out. It's obviously great for the community.
One of the things I really liked about your discussion of your anti-mech build was the way you discussed its relationship with scouting. Specifically, you mentioned the surprising things the opponent could do (e.g. 2 port wraith) and what triggers the "beginning" of the build. (i.e. fast gas)
My big question about your cast on the 5 hatch hydra build is: suppose that your opponent does *not* get corsairs. At what time is it important to know this, and does it introduce subtle variations into the build, or make the build completely inappropriate? (in another thread it was suggested that you should do a 3 hatch muta or lurker build in this situation, but I wanted to get your opinion on whether this transition is necessary, and what time it should occur)
On April 25 2009 09:43 threepool wrote: Day[9]: Really glad to see you're churning them out. It's obviously great for the community.
One of the things I really liked about your discussion of your anti-mech build was the way you discussed its relationship with scouting. Specifically, you mentioned the surprising things the opponent could do (e.g. 2 port wraith) and what triggers the "beginning" of the build. (i.e. fast gas)
My big question about your cast on the 5 hatch hydra build is: suppose that your opponent does *not* get corsairs. At what time is it important to know this, and does it introduce subtle variations into the build, or make the build completely inappropriate? (in another thread it was suggested that you should do a 3 hatch muta or lurker build in this situation, but I wanted to get your opinion on whether this transition is necessary, and what time it should occur)
EDIT for clarity
He covers that. Basically that is what people did before bisu so just mass mutas and expand.
On April 24 2009 12:37 Zozma wrote: Obviously a man of perfection such as myself does not need mechanics advice. But for other people, people who don't have the mechanics skill of Jaedong and Flash combined, I would like to thank you for making this podcast.
Seriously, though, I do have a question: I mostly play Starcraft on a laptop. Does that: A. not matter B. change the way I need to think about hotkeys or C. need to stop?
On April 25 2009 09:06 NeVeR wrote: 4t5t6v7v8v9v is better because you will still be able to move the screen around or use the mini-map in the process of macroing. With enough practice, you can do it very quickly. I use middle finger on 4-6, pointer on t, pointer on 7-9, ring on v.
If you start to get mroe factories, larger armiers that require mroe control groups, and want to keep like 3 scans then it becomes more difficult to macro purely with the keyboard.
On April 25 2009 09:06 NeVeR wrote: 4t5t6v7v8v9v is better because you will still be able to move the screen around or use the mini-map in the process of macroing. With enough practice, you can do it very quickly. I use middle finger on 4-6, pointer on t, pointer on 7-9, ring on v.
If you start to get mroe factories, larger armiers that require mroe control groups, and want to keep like 3 scans then it becomes more difficult to macro purely with the keyboard.
That much is obvious, but we are talking about situations in the mid-game where you would have your factories hotkeyed.
In the later stages of the game, I usually will just have one factory hotkeyed to 6 and will double-tap that key whenever I need to macro. In my opinion this is also better than using an F key, since you will already have one factory selected; where as if you were to use an F key to go back to your macro area you would have to take a little bit of extra time to select the first factory.
On April 25 2009 09:06 NeVeR wrote: 4t5t6v7v8v9v is better because you will still be able to move the screen around or use the mini-map in the process of macroing. With enough practice, you can do it very quickly. I use middle finger on 4-6, pointer on t, pointer on 7-9, ring on v.
If you start to get mroe factories, larger armiers that require mroe control groups, and want to keep like 3 scans then it becomes more difficult to macro purely with the keyboard.
Generally when doing any move, with mouse or keyboard, you seek efficiency. You have a task ahead of you and you want to execute it with the least amount of effort and the fastest way possible. This is the only rule that can be applied on all situations, and thats why better players can sometimes make exceptions from the hotkey rule while lesser players shouldn't think of such things very much.
In this situation we have a pretty hard handmove, although perfectly doable with some practice if you decide do 4t5t6v7v8v9v, or an easy handmove with in 4t5t6789. The second alternative is less complex and equally efficiant (if not even more efficiant because you will have a really hard time to misclick). NeVeR mentioned that you'll still be able to move around the minimap etc if you use 100% hotkeys, and its good to think of such things, but If you watch the VOD with the example you can see that the macromove takes less than 0.5 seconds, and that reasoning alone is not enough to rather do a move that requires more effort, is harder and has the same efficieny.
To easier explain the principle of this reasoning I'll discuss a move obvious case. + Show Spoiler +
Lets say you are going to macro from buildings 4 5 6 7, units that have hotkeys p a n w. Lets also say that each of the buildings are of different kinds and that the unit you're going to build in each building are the first unit in that building. In this example you could practice and develop a way to macro with the keyboard only and execute 4p5a6n7w. Or you could select the buildings 4 5 6 7 and click with the mouse on the same spot of the screen 4 times.
This is a very extreme situation, and most of you would see pretty fast which move is the most efficient and requires the least amount of effort. The only reason you see it so fast is because of the extremity of the example, but the PRINCIPLE is the same. Its harder to see in the 4t5t6v7v8v9v for some people but still has to be applied when working with the important principle of effortless and efficient handmoves.
Skyglow1; Yes, both are useful in different situations. Thats why, in a specific situation, macroing 4t5t6789 is the better option for the moment, hence the exception. The reason why its better than going back and clicking on the factories and building units with the hotkeys is because it requires less handmoves/clicks and you will not have to leave the heat of combat while its still very fast.
Whenever you cannot hotkey all your factories or prioritize hotkeying other stuff this exception can no longer be applied.
However when trying to explain the general idea of hotkey usage, as I said earlier, its not a good idea to take those exceptions into account. There are most often exceptions to any rule. In this case simply because of the keyboard layout and that the rule of efficiency and less effort applies over the "always use hotkey"-rule.
I just figured it would be good to atleast mention that there are exceptions while not thoroughly explaining them, although I had to in this case because people asked me to. Going to listen to 5hatch hydra now, nice work day[9].
On April 25 2009 20:49 Day[9] wrote: Stylish you are wise indeed!
thx v.much for pointing this out to me! ^_^
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not;) Anyway I was never trying to point anything out to you specifically, and I think that my post got abit blown out of propotion and I wont derail this anymore hehe.
On April 25 2009 20:49 Day[9] wrote: Stylish you are wise indeed!
thx v.much for pointing this out to me! ^_^
I can't tell if you're sarcastic or not;) Anyway I was never trying to point anything out to you specifically, and I think that my post got abit blown out of propotion and I wont derail this anymore hehe.
no i'm being totally genuine!!!!
the 6789 click thing is something i never considered. it makes macroing much easier. ^_^ i don't think its derailing at all. its definitely topical and awesome! : ]
On April 25 2009 20:49 Day[9] wrote: Stylish you are wise indeed!
thx v.much for pointing this out to me! ^_^
I can't tell if you're sarcastic or not;) Anyway I was never trying to point anything out to you specifically, and I think that my post got abit blown out of propotion and I wont derail this anymore hehe.
no i'm being totally genuine!!!!
the 6789 click thing is something i never considered. it makes macroing much easier. ^_^ i don't think its derailing at all. its definitely topical and awesome! : ]
I was suspecting sarcasm after some of the discussions I've had with IdrA lately. You on the other hand seem more like someone who actually read what one has to say and consider it before making a conclusion and I'm glad I could help you out in this specific scenario.
On April 26 2009 10:27 whatusername wrote: is it viable for zerg to get lurkers instead of massing hydras off of 5hatch?
Competely!
There are variations where you get no more then 8-12 hydra into lurker or muta. The lurker varation can be more dangerous.
Check out Jaedong Vs Much on katrina SE. Jaedong uses 4 hat hydra(small amount) into 5 hat lurker -> muta. This build is very strong when your timings roll of without a hitch. Although one kink in the timing of anything and you might very well be in store for a brutal rape!
On April 25 2009 09:06 NeVeR wrote: 4t5t6v7v8v9v is better because you will still be able to move the screen around or use the mini-map in the process of macroing. With enough practice, you can do it very quickly. I use middle finger on 4-6, pointer on t, pointer on 7-9, ring on v.
If you start to get mroe factories, larger armiers that require mroe control groups, and want to keep like 3 scans then it becomes more difficult to macro purely with the keyboard.
Generally when doing any move, with mouse or keyboard, you seek efficiency. You have a task ahead of you and you want to execute it with the least amount of effort and the fastest way possible. This is the only rule that can be applied on all situations, and thats why better players can sometimes make exceptions from the hotkey rule while lesser players shouldn't think of such things very much.
In this situation we have a pretty hard handmove, although perfectly doable with some practice if you decide do 4t5t6v7v8v9v, or an easy handmove with in 4t5t6789. The second alternative is less complex and equally efficiant (if not even more efficiant because you will have a really hard time to misclick). NeVeR mentioned that you'll still be able to move around the minimap etc if you use 100% hotkeys, and its good to think of such things, but If you watch the VOD with the example you can see that the macromove takes less than 0.5 seconds, and that reasoning alone is not enough to rather do a move that requires more effort, is harder and has the same efficieny.
To easier explain the principle of this reasoning I'll discuss a move obvious case. + Show Spoiler +
Lets say you are going to macro from buildings 4 5 6 7, units that have hotkeys p a n w. Lets also say that each of the buildings are of different kinds and that the unit you're going to build in each building are the first unit in that building. In this example you could practice and develop a way to macro with the keyboard only and execute 4p5a6n7w. Or you could select the buildings 4 5 6 7 and click with the mouse on the same spot of the screen 4 times.
This is a very extreme situation, and most of you would see pretty fast which move is the most efficient and requires the least amount of effort. The only reason you see it so fast is because of the extremity of the example, but the PRINCIPLE is the same. Its harder to see in the 4t5t6v7v8v9v for some people but still has to be applied when working with the important principle of effortless and efficient handmoves.
Skyglow1; Yes, both are useful in different situations. Thats why, in a specific situation, macroing 4t5t6789 is the better option for the moment, hence the exception. The reason why its better than going back and clicking on the factories and building units with the hotkeys is because it requires less handmoves/clicks and you will not have to leave the heat of combat while its still very fast.
Whenever you cannot hotkey all your factories or prioritize hotkeying other stuff this exception can no longer be applied.
However when trying to explain the general idea of hotkey usage, as I said earlier, its not a good idea to take those exceptions into account. There are most often exceptions to any rule. In this case simply because of the keyboard layout and that the rule of efficiency and less effort applies over the "always use hotkey"-rule.
I just figured it would be good to atleast mention that there are exceptions while not thoroughly explaining them, although I had to in this case because people asked me to. Going to listen to 5hatch hydra now, nice work day[9].
But, but exactly do you mean by saying "You have to put your Hydras and Mutas to use". You where talking about the most standard 5hat hydra -> muta. You obviously dont mean when the p turtles z should try to break the nat and in the end only melt to storm. Do you mean keep harassing with mutas? Get drop and drop the main/3rd expo if the protoss turtles?
And could u give a brief layout for the timings of each build u presented? Like get the evo when your lair finishes so you have +1 when the first push comes. Or when you take ur first/second gas.
On April 26 2009 19:39 fishyjoes wrote: Thank you Day9 for another awesome episode!
But, but exactly do you mean by saying "You have to put your Hydras and Mutas to use". You where talking about the most standard 5hat hydra -> muta. You obviously dont mean when the p turtles z should try to break the nat and in the end only melt to storm. Do you mean keep harassing with mutas? Get drop and drop the main/3rd expo if the protoss turtles?
And could u give a brief layout for the timings of each build u presented? Like get the evo when your lair finishes so you have +1 when the first push comes. Or when you take ur first/second gas.
First gas usually after 3rd hat. Second gas after you put down 5hatches and a hydra den. Evo chamber goes down here too~
Day[9], you're a fucking magician as always. You've improved everyone's Z play over and over, and we love you for it. I'm eagerly awaiting the next, especially something I can use ZvZ, as my muta micro's decent, but my timing is about as effective as a picture of Rosie O'Donnell at a circle jerk; It's NO GOOD.
nice day! even tho i dont have a revolation while watching these. I cant stop watching them i find then entertaining to say the least keep up the good work!
Would be awesome if you could provide replays of yourself doing each variation.. but regardless, this is still pretty cool. BTW, I'm wondering jaedong would've gone all in muta if the probe didn't scout his lair? Has he done the 2 hatch into 5 hatch hydra more than once? Anyways, tyvm for the podcast, keep them coming <3
Wow, this is awesome. I'm a total noob after having not played for years, so these basic concepts are really helpful. I definitely have terrible habits in terms of hotkeys (as in, I rarely used them).
<3 for these, now I got something to listen to if I don't wanna listen to music when going to work/getting of work.
I'd like you to talk about Queens in general as a unit, why is it so underused. One queen for example would be a great late game scout in any match up, especially coupled with parasite, you'd be able to constantly check for expansions because of the great speed of the queen and maybe even kill a cc via infestation that you would just have damaged without the queen.
Maybe a new zerg strat should be based around making a single queen for the entire game and that would be kept hidden somewhere in the map (pretty much like overlords) and it could be used for the various reasons rubikscube posted above.
I just started playing BW again after a 3 year break. I corrected a few bad habits listening to these pods, but I still have one question.
I use 1-3 and 4-0 with my index on 4, ring s, middle d and pinky on Z. Is this a bad habit or just a preference thing? Should I change to 1-4, 5-0 and move my index to 5?
Hey, been haning around TL a little and found this thread, which was completely what I needed! I got a question though (if this has been answered allready earlier in the thread or in other threads, guess I missed it -.-): What do you do when you get like 5-6 controlgroups of units? In my game, it happens often since lings will easily fill out 3-4 groups if you need loads to fend off an attack. I mean, should I skip my hatchery keybinds or just manually controlling the units without hotkeys? This is a problem in early/midgame and becomes even worse in lategame. Any tips?
I was wondering if you could maybe do a cast on.. Mirror Matchups!
Some advise & tactics on how to an mirror opponent up to a certain point if at all and how to know when they made a mistake that you can exploit and take to gain an edge/advantage and how to press that advantage into a win.
I was wondering if you could maybe do a cast on.. Mirror Matchups!
Some advise & tactics on how to an mirror opponent up to a certain point if at all and how to know when they made a mistake that you can exploit and take to gain an edge/advantage and how to press that advantage into a win.
Thx
With that in mind why don't you get into detail about ZvZ Hydra ^^
On May 07 2009 02:35 Papvin wrote: Hey, been hanging around TL a little and found this thread, which was completely what I needed! I got a question though (if this has been answered allready earlier in the thread or in other threads, guess I missed it -.-): What do you do when you get like 5-6 controlgroups of units? In my game, it happens often since lings will easily fill out 3-4 groups if you need loads to fend off an attack. I mean, should I skip my hatchery keybinds or just manually controlling the units without hotkeys? This is a problem in early/midgame and becomes even worse in lategame. Any tips?
Bump . Btw, is this the wrong place to ask for this, or is it found an obvious place on the site I haven't found ? I bet there're some zerg players out there way better than me who can give me some hints.
On May 07 2009 02:35 Papvin wrote: Hey, been hanging around TL a little and found this thread, which was completely what I needed! I got a question though (if this has been answered allready earlier in the thread or in other threads, guess I missed it -.-): What do you do when you get like 5-6 controlgroups of units? In my game, it happens often since lings will easily fill out 3-4 groups if you need loads to fend off an attack. I mean, should I skip my hatchery keybinds or just manually controlling the units without hotkeys? This is a problem in early/midgame and becomes even worse in lategame. Any tips?
Bump . Btw, is this the wrong place to ask for this, or is it found an obvious place on the site I haven't found ? I bet there're some zerg players out there way better than me who can give me some hints.
I'm not really a pro or a Zerg player but what you CAN do is use the F2 F3 F4 keys, i use these for macro, rallies and push locations: F2 = your macro area aka facts, hatches, gates whatever F3 = you rally location, usually outside your nat (F2 - F3 lets you redo rallies quickly) F4 = where you are pushing/attacking
If you are playing Zerg, then you can just select a bunch from F3, press F4 (at their nat say) , A-move, then repeat with a new batch from F3. This way you dont really need to worry about messing up your hatch hotkeys since you'll only have a few hatcheries not covered by F2, thus you can make-a-bunch-a-control groups and mass A-move
I would be interested if July does this:
[this is the minimap from a July v Rock game July is white ofc]
Given some of the recent noise about 2 hatch vs. 3 hatch in ZvT, I'm really curious to see the upcoming podcast on the subject. But I hear that not everybody plays zerg.
On May 13 2009 01:13 threepool wrote: Given some of the recent noise about 2 hatch vs. 3 hatch in ZvT, I'm really curious to see the upcoming podcast on the subject. But I hear that not everybody plays zerg.
Lies there are no people who don't play zerg. Don't fill day[9]'s head with ideas that he has to do something not pertaining to zerg.
On May 06 2009 03:50 EsX_Raptor wrote: Maybe a new zerg strat should be based around making a single queen for the entire game and that would be kept hidden somewhere in the map (pretty much like overlords) and it could be used for the various reasons rubikscube posted above.
edit: typo
When I play vs terran I make a queen just in case i'm attacking his cc and he lifts it... and sometime I upgrade spawn broodling to kill tanks
This has given me an epiphany. I finally understand how my girlfriend feels when I keep her waiting. I DIDN'T REALIZE HOW BAD IT WAS
Er... another dumb question about the mech audio. You mention the three big things a terran can do after fast gas: 1 factory harass, 2 factory harass, 2 port wraith. What about fast academy? I'm capable of thinking for myself on this one, but I was curious why you omitted it--is it because a serious mnm push on 1 base would arrive later than the other possibilities, giving time to react after making your ragtag hydra squad?
On May 27 2009 04:03 threepool wrote: This has given me an epiphany. I finally understand how my girlfriend feels when I keep her waiting. I DIDN'T REALIZE HOW BAD IT WAS
Er... another dumb question about the mech audio. You mention the three big things a terran can do after fast gas: 1 factory harass, 2 factory harass, 2 port wraith. What about fast academy? I'm capable of thinking for myself on this one, but I was curious why you omitted it--is it because a serious mnm push on 1 base would arrive later than the other possibilities, giving time to react after making your ragtag hydra squad?
He mentioned that IIRC. He said that an academy rush would come with small numbers of mnm, so hydralisks would still work okay.
On May 27 2009 04:03 threepool wrote: This has given me an epiphany. I finally understand how my girlfriend feels when I keep her waiting. I DIDN'T REALIZE HOW BAD IT WAS
Er... another dumb question about the mech audio. You mention the three big things a terran can do after fast gas: 1 factory harass, 2 factory harass, 2 port wraith. What about fast academy? I'm capable of thinking for myself on this one, but I was curious why you omitted it--is it because a serious mnm push on 1 base would arrive later than the other possibilities, giving time to react after making your ragtag hydra squad?
That build was only popularized after fantasy vs luxury in Batoo OSL which was mid march, the original podcast was made Jan 07 where only the variations day mentioned were poopular. The build you are talking about is newer than the podcast itself so day didnt mention it.
+ the guy above is right, Hydra deals with MNM nicely when MNM in small numbers since you can focus fire and shift click the rines one by one.
On May 27 2009 04:10 samachking wrote: That build was only popularized after fantasy vs luxury in Batoo OSL which was mid march, the original podcast was made Jan 07 where only the variations day mentioned were poopular. The build you are talking about is newer than the podcast itself so day didnt mention it.
+ the guy above is right, Hydra deals with MNM nicely when MNM in small numbers since you can focus fire and shift click the rines one by one.
Thanks for the clear answer, but I'm pretty sure the idea of building an early academy is older than January. (he posted it on Jan 7th this year, sounds kind of like you're saying Jan '07)
Did you even listen to the commentary? Each strategy is a counter to something that the opponent is doing, use hydras when it suits the situation, don't just blindly do 1 strat each game.
Wha? Not at all. 5 hatch hydra is a powerful and standard build. Sure, your opponent may do things that causes you to adapt, but that's not really his question.
Well he was asking if 5hat hydra is "the best". There is no "best", everything is good for something else. 5hat hydra is good for adaptability if the protoss went for a passive FE, that doesn't mean it's "the best", Z can easily prefer to go lurkerling or muta/scourge depending on what his playstyle, what's the map, what the overlord saw P doing, etc
You want to have one solid, standard build in each matchup that you use most of the time, and while it's true that there's no "best" build, the 5 hatch hydra is a strong option, and it's also easy to get VODS of progamers using it.
His question: "Should I be opening 5 hatch hydra in ZvP?" If he wants to, it's a great thing to go with.
On May 27 2009 08:37 Day[9] wrote: wagh sorry i'm having upload troubles because this next podcast is 35 minutes long (too big for upload)
trying to get super admin access lol
Just imagine if Day was tired after his exams, and you hear slurred speech, and then just 10 minutes of complete silence, then another five of snoring, then a choke, and continuation of the lecture...
Awesome, awesome cast--gave me a lot to think about. I also really like that you make sure these are high quality, as it means that it's quite easy to listen to them several times and really absorb the ideas.
Thank You Day[9], this reminds how I made my 1st BO, the 10/15 DT rush PvT ^^ Elements of the Build: 3/5 goons + range DT attack before turrets get up ^^
Hey Day[9], I've got a question about the latest cast.
Overall, I thought it was great but you assert many times that it is better to re-arrange your build order than to change your game plan. But I noticed you never really said why...
...at least not explicitly (or I missed it.)
I mean obviously in some cases it's better to stick with your plan like if you have to abandon some tech you've invested in or something but I will usually change my gameplan if I see something nonstandard early in the game.
For example, (and for the record: I'm D/D+ so this may not be the greatest idea) I like to be as annoying as I can with lurkers against protoss who are 1 base teching in the hopes that it will be really hard for them to get obs off that one gas. I'm really hoping I can make him GG in the midgame at this point or at least cripple him really badly. Tell me why I should stick with a less aggressive contain/deny third->drop->hive at that point.
I took the bottom line of the point you were making as "never deviate unless your opponent does something that your current plan really cannot deal with." And in the situation above, I have no reason to think that it would be impossible for me to win (or I would be seriously disadvantaged) by modifying the expansion timings, unit to drone ratios at various times, etc if the protoss 1 gate techs instead of fast expands I just don't see what that is automatically a better choice.
Again, forgive me if above example is really bad strategically, but even if it is the case that fast lurkers is a bad response to 1 gate tech, that doesn't necessarily imply that my original gameplan was automatically the best of all possible choices I could make at that point does it?
You make a good case that it's usually more possible to stick with a plan than most people think and the ideas about how to think about build orders seem right to me, but I'm not sure you've convinced me that I should stick with my original plan. Why will that help me... you know... win. I mean I can think of some reasons (it's mentally jarring to change horses midstream for example) but I would like to hear why you are so sure about it you treated it as an axiom in that cast
Great E9 cast Day9. As always I really enjoyed listening to that. However, I think that the shorter, more to the point, casts were generally better. This cast seemed to repeat itself a lot and would give sooo much detail, especially when talking about examples. I'm sure some people think these points are what make this cast good, but in my own opinion, anyone who's actually listening to the theory wouldn't need so many details in the examples; and anyone who is only half listening wouldn't catch all those details anyways.
my internet is loading the longer ones really, really slow, so as of now i have only heard the ones 3 minutes or under - the intros lol, but these sound incredible and i am really looking forward to them. Thanks!
Interesting, I sort of think of build orders this way as well, I just never really execute them as such.
I never could explain it this way either. But I imagine guide making may be a little more differently now. Or actually I would like to see a written BO guide in the style of this new way to think of it.
On May 28 2009 03:06 Strayline wrote:Why will that help me... you know... win.
I can't speak for Day[9] and I'm not the most fantastic Starcraft player, (also D/D+) but I do know a few things about strategy in general and these are my thoughts.
I think the basic idea is: why bother coming up with 20 good strategies when you only need one? And why give up a very strong build that you know inside and out just because you're forced to put buildings down in a different order? There's nothing inherently bad or weak about changing your strategy in a game, but being able to control the game and force the other player to adapt to your style of play is a much more powerful approach.
I'm very familiar with this in the game of Go. When I play tournament games, I can really feel the power of my personal style. I'm always driving the game in the direction that makes me the most comfortable, and if I can really get it to that place, I feel confident that I can win even if I'm objectively behind. If I'm forced to, I can play in a style that makes me less comfortable, but it's less fun, and wins me fewer games.
I developed this approach to the game in a very similar way to what Day[9] described in his cast. I considered what kind of midgame I enjoyed playing the most--a strong position and the initiative to attack my opponent--and started experimenting with guiding the flow of the opening in that direction. Soon I found that I could easily beat many opponents who did not take my preparations seriously, and even those that did often had a tough time.
Anyway, the point is that you don't just want to play a game and take it... somewhere. You always want to be looking ahead to when and how you're going to win, and taking steps in that direction. Then if your opponent doesn't stop you, you win, but you don't necessarily lose even if he does stop you.
Somebody else can answer your specific build question in detail, but I have a feeling the answer is: it's fine, as long as you have clear midgame goals that are consistent with your play.
awesome casts day[9]!!! i was thinking about BOs totally wrong, what you explained made perfect sense paralleling chess even. if you only memorize opening moves and don't understand the ideas behind each one you're going to be tripped up by the slightest deviation, same concept as memorizing BOs.
I'm a bit confused as to the build order spiel...I really shouldn't abandon my original plan for the end game no matter what? When would it be appropriate to completely change bo choices?
pretty basic stuff in these podcast :S Also not sure if you covered this or wanted to cover this but build orders wern't just created to counter/do well against the enemy players builds. They are also usefull to improve your multitasking ability. Getting a player to build the same thing over and over at the same time ingrains it in the players mind and slowly they get faster and faster at doing the build while under pressure.
I challenge you to do an in depth podcast on 'how to exploit the enemies army control as a zerg player' Because this is something Pros have started taking to a new level these days to win their games.
Very good podcast - really interesting and very enjoyable to listen to, since you chose build orders which we've all been tumbling with at one point or another. Listening to your podcast about mechanics, settings and setup made me feel really bad, since I pretty much had every bad habbit that you critisized, but this one cheered me up because it was cool to hear how another player makes up his build orders. Well done!
Unit tactics would be a cool subject to dive into in your next podcast. Let's show that Sun Tzu (Wu?) guy who the true boss of tactics is!
One question I had- the only times you mentioned to deviate are situations which your build order simply can't handle. However, are there situations where it is a bigger net payoff to deviate from your current strategy to a new strategy based on what the opponent is doing, even if you could theoretically hold him off by rearranging your build and continue doing what you're doing?
The reason I'm asking is that there seems to be more build order diversity among the pros than one would expect given this podcast, if most major builds could simply re-arrange to accommodate other builds, then what would be the point of opening with unorthodox or niche builds?
You start off in a rather oppositional way of saying the way most people discuss build orders is "quite bad" and "flat out wrong in most circumstances". This way of discussing build orders is "a list of instructions based on that food".
You suggest the alternative of talking about build orders as "an optimization of an idea". Further, "A build orders is how you arrange these key components leading up the execution of your idea. The most important aspect of this notion of build orders is that you can rearrange these key components, and you will still will end up accomplishing the same big idea you had in mind."
Even quite early you admit there are good bits of truth in first sort of definition of build order. And in the end, the la st step in the process of build creation would be to come up with "an instruction set based upon food."
The reason for this confused oppositional attitude...and my take? A build order is simply the order in which you get things. A build order can be quite general in that it just notes "key components". Or a build order can be exact food counts...for instance, 8pylon, 10gate, 12assim, 14core, 15pylon, 17goon, 20range, etc. This is because "build order" is somewhat ambiguous, and different forms of build order have advantages and disadvantages.
The idea of optimization has nothing to do with the idea of a build order in itself though. The idea of optimization is implicit in a good build order however. That is the important thing to take from parts 1-2 in my mind, that good build orders have to do with optimization (what I have called efficiency). After part 2 I zoned out when rambling about game examples, but it seems you were talking more about optimization, if never getting into exact food counts.
----- To bellow: You don't really hit on any of my points, and I guess you don't follow. He presented one way of thinking about build orders, and then another way as a new look at build orders. Mind you, I am not making a big deal about this. I think this was largely for the purpose of set-up, setting a stage as it were. In the end after all he does return to food based instructions, as well as say there is much truth in the first definition, even after associating it with being quite bad. I suppose the main point is that this opposition blurred the lines between simply "a build order" and "a good build order", which I make sure are distinct.
I disagree... Just because you use "quotation marks", it doesn't make what he said "oppositional", or maybe even "confused".
Still, your idea is not mutually exclusive with his: There is indeed an order in which you build things, but why do you build them in that order? To accomplish your goal, or "big idea".
I think the point KnickKnack raises is that a bo is a way of reaching your idea and does not have to be optimized. However, a good bo is optimized whereas a bad bo accomplishes the same thing but in a less efficient manner.
I really think you should cover who these advanced topics at aimed at.
D/D+/even C- players should probably be focusing on standard builds and improving their mechanics from what I've seen, and you're constantly telling people to 'find their own styles and builds'
Would you really advise these ways of thinking for low level players? I'm not saying it's wrong but it seems like a much slower way for a low level player to improve.
On May 31 2009 21:42 Hundredth wrote: I really think you should cover who these advanced topics at aimed at.
D/D+/even C- players should probably be focusing on standard builds rather than focusing on mechanics from what I've seen, and you're constantly telling people to 'find their own styles and builds'
Would you really advise these ways of thinking for low level players? I'm not saying it's wrong but it seems like a much slower way for a low level player to improve.
I think you are VERY wrong.
Theory: Learn ONE standard Build order Like te back of your hand.TYour skill and rank jump. A month later. Your D + and finding it hard to jump.So you learn a different build order (some odd days later) Okay Now you begin jumping in ranks and skill or falling back to low D.Now you evaluate the build order and how you messed it up or used it right. Then you now know one of your strengths or weaknesses.
Applied: I find that Micro intensive build orders are REALLY hit or miss for me. It is almost 100% in correlation with my APM that game. When I play macro games I have a much lower win loss ration except T v Z. Therefore I use Macro and Micro builds T v Z and some more micro intensive builds t v t and T v P. These allow me to learn to learn to micro and macro faster and playing on my strength(micro).
Example: I'm simply not as good at Late game t v p unless Ive harassed them. So I open dropship tvp often. This gets me more wins and allows me to play off my strengths rather than someone elses build order designed for their strengths. It took me a while in D+ to realize I needed to switch away from standard and try to develop something my opponents haven't seen or didn't expect.(while maintaining my strengths ofc)
It was a typo in that I said 'rather than mechanics', I meant 'improving on mechanics' but I think you assumed that.
Anyway, what I said is learning 1 build order seems more efficient. You got to D+ then found it hard then dropped it? That's what it sounds like to me.. and of course you'll find things hard but overcoming them is improvement.
On May 31 2009 21:42 Hundredth wrote: I really think you should cover who these advanced topics at aimed at.
D/D+/even C- players should probably be focusing on standard builds and improving their mechanics from what I've seen, and you're constantly telling people to 'find their own styles and builds'
Would you really advise these ways of thinking for low level players? I'm not saying it's wrong but it seems like a much slower way for a low level player to improve.
wtf?
This is just a way of undestanding existing build orders. The same thinking for creating a build order is used in understanding someone elses.
Applying these steps to jaedong vs mind on othello, you can simply map out game possiblities , timings and triggers and goals and plans in the sam way you would for your own build.
Just copy food related things is bad, understanding the concepts behind your build will make your build stronger and more fluid.
Playing smart and mechanical is better then playing just smart or just mechanically or neither!
I'm not talking about understanding the build orders you're using as is pretty evident in what I typed.. I'm asking whether people at low levels should really be trying to make their own styles when their mechanics and knowledge aren't up to scratch. As I said, it just doesn't seem as effective as practicing standard 'cookie-cutter builds' until you're at a decent level and understand why the build is standard.
Seriously you missed the actual question.
Playing smart and mechanical is better then playing just smart or just mechanically or neither!
On May 31 2009 23:57 Hundredth wrote: I'm not talking about understanding the build orders you're using as is pretty evident in what I typed.. I'm asking whether people at low levels should really be trying to make their own styles when their mechanics and knowledge aren't up to scratch. As I said, it just doesn't seem as effective as practicing standard 'cookie-cutter builds' until you're at a decent level and understand why the build is standard.
Playing smart and mechanical is better then playing just smart or just mechanically or neither!
Well yeah
Its a game; some people get bored of doing cookie-cutter builds over and over. Most people will never improve beyond D+ (not because they are inherently unable, but simply a fact of life) and some just want to find the most fun options for themselves.
On May 31 2009 22:58 Hundredth wrote: It was a typo in that I said 'rather than mechanics', I meant 'improving on mechanics' but I think you assumed that.
Anyway, what I said is learning 1 build order seems more efficient. You got to D+ then found it hard then dropped it? That's what it sounds like to me.. and of course you'll find things hard but overcoming them is improvement.
One more time. I dropped the standard build for every game. It was losing me matchups and i still practice it. The difference is your not going to get to past c+ unless you have crazy macro micro. People know how to counter your builds and it will become increasingly difficult to stop their scouting. If you can manage it go for it. But you'll hit a block and to beat iccup'ers who do "crazy shit" you have to adjust your game or vastly improve your ability beyond theirs.
On May 31 2009 21:42 Hundredth wrote: I really think you should cover who these advanced topics at aimed at.
D/D+/even C- players should probably be focusing on standard builds rather than focusing on mechanics from what I've seen, and you're constantly telling people to 'find their own styles and builds'
Would you really advise these ways of thinking for low level players? I'm not saying it's wrong but it seems like a much slower way for a low level player to improve.
I think this is a great question that I'm sure many are wondering as well.
I believe that my advice is highly applicable to players of all skill levels (with the exception of the "building triggers and the imaginary player." That's more for players who are pretty comfortable in all matchups and are trying to get to that "next step").
In regards to your question, this is what I think a player should do:
Pick ONE playstyle, in ONE matchup, on ONE map. (ie, PvZ, early expand corsair style on destination). Then, try to use all the advice I'm providing to hone that one playstyle. You'll be able to get from D to C in probably 2-3 months (as was the case w/ a friend of mine). When you move on to other playstyles or other matchups, not only are your mechanics solid, but also your mindset is in the right place.
I advice people to "find their own styles and builds" because this allows players to have significantly more fun AND have a MUCH deeper understanding of their own play. I'm not necessarily saying to do something nonstandard, but rather a player should try to adjust a standard build to his liking, modifying or even throwing away certain portions of it, instead of trying to "figure out the standard, right thing to do is."
In a sense, I think starcraft is an incredibly fun game and a wonderful exercise in creative problem solving. I HATE the periods when I've been mentally stuck because I didn't quite know how to think. My primary goal is to provide tools to make sure people never feel stuck, that they always see a clear path towards improvement, that they approach starcraft with the right mindset regardless of their skill level!!!
Day, you HAVE to enter this into the guide competition for SC2 beta keys, then give it to me for suggesting it! I know you want to, so just PM me the key. This'll win for sure, ezpz.
I understand and love these podcast. One question I have is what is considered a winning strategy? I know that Day[9] talks about making a winning move before the game. As a Protoss player, I always try to just mass out on 11+ gates or mass out in arbiters for the goals of my BO against a Terran player. However, I'm pretty sure there are multiple ways to win than mentioned. Can you do a podcast about what if your winning strategy doesn't meet the requirements to win?
On June 03 2009 08:53 Sets wrote: I understand and love these podcast. One question I have is what is considered a winning strategy? I know that Day[9] talks about making a winning move before the game. As a Protoss player, I always try to just mass out on 11+ gates or mass out in arbiters for the goals of my BO against a Terran player. However, I'm pretty sure there are multiple ways to win than mentioned. Can you do a podcast about what if your winning strategy doesn't meet the requirements to win?
i'm a bit confused
i'm not sure i've ever used the term "winning strategy" as a strict definition. could you point to the time/cast where i use this term so i can clarify?
I think he may be referring to the part about the differences in strategies aimed toward winning a game and strategies aimed toward strictly gaining an advantage in the winning with an advantage cast.... that is just the closest thing I can think of in your casts....
Lol here's me again posting after 1 day(previous post is a day old). I've been planning my BO for my match ups, they're all on Destination.
PvZ: Sair - AirControl then DT/Reaver pwn harass Move to 3 base, take the island Move up to goon/temp/reaver break
ZvT: Rape initial push with hydras! >:3 Power to 3 base, get upgrade (would force tank heavy) Rush guardian then expand island (profit!)
PvT: Get a goon/zeal early game to pressure his FE build abit Expo 3rd, block w/ pylon, get like 15 gateways. Use shuttles with DTs in them Arbitor (goal is to use 2 shuttles nazgul style :D)
ZvP: 3 Hatch hydra (fast-ish, forces cannon) Lurk Contain Get evos upgrading, ultra ling, harass with lurkers on the back of his mineral line to keep him busy Drops. Keep making lurkers for lategame if no reaver present.
I did pretty well(I played maybe 4ZvP and 1TvZ(we both went random))! I think overall the message is "To Have a Plan" because people do better when they have a plan. My problem before was I always try to come up with strategies on the spot, although sometimes it works, without a definite map-oriented goal, my mechanis/multitasks suffers and I barely go over 120 apm. Today with a definite plan, even my zerg hits 140 and game felt great. :D
On June 04 2009 12:33 AttackZerg wrote: Congradulations on your planning.
I do think you might want to revise (all) your zerg builds.
haha yeah They probably sucks bad but I'm getting the feeling even a bad plan is better than no plan at all.
yeah going 3 hatch hydra to force cannons wont pay off for your economy. May as well go for a 5 hatch lurker contain since its just as easy to get the contain up.
raping initial push with hydras zvt can work so long as your opponent doesnt scout den before lair.
And then again you can just rape an initial push by having 2 sunkens and some lings, or get 9 mutas.
On June 04 2009 12:33 AttackZerg wrote: Congradulations on your planning.
I do think you might want to revise (all) your zerg builds.
haha yeah They probably sucks bad but I'm getting the feeling even a bad plan is better than no plan at all.
You are undoubtably correct in that.
Another look at it is that I can get to b- incorperating queens into every single game I play as a counter to templar/muta/tanks/marines and if I have a good feeling for when and where then I'm going to be way better at doing it then if I say "Ok queens are teh l33t, I'll make them".
Now are queens the best option most of the time? No but they can be used to win if they fall into my game plan, even if my gameplan is worse.
On June 01 2009 12:08 Day[9] wrote:Pick ONE playstyle, in ONE matchup, on ONE map. (ie, PvZ, early expand corsair style on destination). Then, try to use all the advice I'm providing to hone that one playstyle. You'll be able to get from D to C in probably 2-3 months (as was the case w/ a friend of mine). When you move on to other playstyles or other matchups, not only are your mechanics solid, but also your mindset is in the right place.
OK, so I'm trying out this advice, and I have some questions.
I'm working on 5 hatch hydra PvZ on blue storm. I'm starting to wonder if this is a) too specific, or b) not specific enough.
a) Of course, it is not possible to play 5 hatch hydra every single game, it's totally inappropriate if he 2 gates, or does FE into speedzealots for example. So I seem to need at least 3 fairly distinct game plans.
b) You mentioned that 2 hatch lair into 5 hatch hydra is good at forcing your fast expanding opponent into corsair play. Would that make this build appropriate for someone who wants to practice 5 hatch hydra? It would in theory reduce my options... but it wouldn't really, I'd still need to know how to handle the situation if he ignored my early lair and went for a ground push.
EDIT: b' ) Or maybe I should be visualizing a later stage of the midgame, a well-formed hydra/muta army and 4 bases, perhaps?
Sorry if I sound a little bit like a robot in this post (I know you're encouraging us to think for ourselves) but I feel a little stuck when I sit down to work on one specific thing, as you suggest, and only get 1 game out of 8 in which I actually get to build 5 hatcheries and make hydralisks. (half of those were proxies, but never mind) Since you promise excellent results, I want to make sure I'm following your advice correctly.
On June 05 2009 12:01 threepool wrote: Sorry if I sound a little bit like a robot in this post
Just so you know. Just because day[9] is teaching the fundementals of build orders and strategies does not mean he saying "You can't play standard". What he is doing is giving you(us) the tools to be able to explore those things for yourself to improve your own gameplay. I think applying his techniques to standard play is the only way for lower level players (myself definately included) to understand the game and improve.
If you truely care about the questions you asked, revert to his original podcast on builds and how he gauged when to get gaurdians ZvT on gaia. He fully equiped you with the tools to figure out all of the strategic questions, as far as some of the planning , needless to say I'm curious.
If he doesn't respond I'll post some of the selected advice I've gotten from ret/lzgamer/machine on zerg goals/planning.
I suppose a simpler way to phrase my question would be: "How should I reconcile my goal of practicing one style with the fact that my opponent might force me away from my desired path?" His example was early expand corsair style PvZ, but the protoss can do this more or less independently of what zerg is doing. (excepting a 4-6 pool) On the other hand, as a zerg, I feel that I have to play a completely different game against 2 gate than FE corsair.
On June 06 2009 03:31 threepool wrote: I suppose a simpler way to phrase my question would be: "How should I reconcile my goal of practicing one style with the fact that my opponent might force me away from my desired path?" His example was early expand corsair style PvZ, but the protoss can do this more or less independently of what zerg is doing. (excepting a 4-6 pool) On the other hand, as a zerg, I feel that I have to play a completely different game against 2 gate than FE corsair.
TBH when toss goes for any type of 1 gate or 2 gate play, you don't need 5 hats and 35-40 drones, you can saturate 2 bases with 3 hat and go lair/den speedhydra/speedovie-then lurker-then range then expo + evo+spire, and be in the exact same midgame situations with even a greater advanatage then regular.
Then you can add 2 move evos and a fifth hat and go hive lurker/ling/hydra or stay lair and go lurkercontain and(or) drop. The sitations will transpose completely.
and by doing what I said, you more or less achieve the exact same thing as versus an fe toss in a different route.
He covered all of this in his recent guide on builds. Versus 1gate and 2gate , you must figure out the order you need the different techs, rather then getting everything at once with a 5 hat play.
You aren't thinking deeply enough about how midgame works, I think.
Thanks for the help, I'll try to keep your example in mind.
On June 06 2009 03:41 AttackZerg wrote:You aren't thinking deeply enough about how midgame works, I think.
I'm trying, believe me. But there are situations where the midgame does not necessarily transpose; terran mech, for example. (which Day[9] referred to as "a completely different matchup" from normal TvZ)
On June 06 2009 03:41 AttackZerg wrote:You aren't thinking deeply enough about how midgame works, I think.
I'm trying, believe me. But there are situations where the midgame does not necessarily transpose; terran mech, for example. (which Day[9] referred to as "a completely different matchup" from normal TvZ)
We aren't talking about zvt. We are talking about how someone wanting to practice true, standard zvp can go into 2 gate situations or even 1gate with the same macro mindset.
On June 06 2009 05:37 AttackZerg wrote: We aren't talking about zvt. We are talking about how someone wanting to practice true, standard zvp can go into 2 gate situations or even 1gate with the same macro mindset.
OK, thanks for answering all my n00b questions.
Try to keep in mind that those of us without years of experience can't see certain details like this at a glance. It would help to hear some of the reasoning as to why you consider ZvP to have a single direction, while ZvT does not–might help get some of your good advice through my thick skull.
On June 06 2009 05:37 AttackZerg wrote: We aren't talking about zvt. We are talking about how someone wanting to practice true, standard zvp can go into 2 gate situations or even 1gate with the same macro mindset.
OK, thanks for answering all my n00b questions.
Try to keep in mind that those of us without years of experience can't see certain details like this at a glance. It would help to hear some of the reasoning as to why you consider ZvP to have a single direction, while ZvT does not–might help get some of your good advice through my thick skull.
Well no matter what type of game you are playing against protoss you will inevitably be dealing with the same few types of gameplay. Hydralisks and zerglings work against all of them earlygame and earlymidgame. This includes 1gate -> zealot legs, 1 gate goon,reaver,1gate sair/dt , 1 gate sair/reaver, 2gate -> fe -> 2 gate tech. The only difference between these and FE toss is that you encounter masses of units of a specific type, ala , 4 gate speedzealots or 1 gate sair/dt->templar/cannons earlier in the game, so once you respond to that earlygame tech protoss must (unless their 'timing attack' succeeds) settle into a macro mode, which translates into a normal macro midgame,where muta switches, lurkers,masshydralisks ect can all be viable just like 5 hat vs fe type games.
Now against terran you have many different types of tech openings. 1rax gas -> 3rax sunken bust(on 1 base) 1raxgas->double factory -> speedvulture runby or 2 rax tank push or 1factory/starport or two port wraith. Then you have all the fast expo variants of those same builds. Then you have bionic which (aside from heavy vulture harrass or wraiths) can have certain timing windows to kill zerg (premuta-prelurker-pre-defiler). Then you have mech which has slower timing attacks (normally) but is alot more (1 punch knockout), while most bionic play after FE isn't dead after 1 push.
ZvT does transpose just like zvp but in 2 different ways. 1 the lurker is your most valueable unit and the other hydralisks and mutalisks are. I am writing this quickly and don't have time to go back and revise everything but I hope you understand that the dynamics of terran and protoss are very different and as zerg they demand very different thinking. Thinking wise, zvp is much easier.
On June 06 2009 01:53 AttackZerg wrote: If he doesn't respond I'll post some of the selected advice I've gotten from ret/lzgamer/machine on zerg goals/planning.
Dude, post that no matter what happens! I'd definitely like to hear it.
On June 06 2009 22:04 rAnDoMZerg wrote: In the StoppingMech podcast he mentioned 2 games for proleagues of how good is mech... Can someone post link of that 2 games please?
That podcast had its own thread. motbob posted the videos there.
P.S , sean if you disagree with anything I say, please please post it. Everything I say is based off of my experience in conversation,resources, study and play I would love to know how much of what I say you agree with!
On June 06 2009 22:04 rAnDoMZerg wrote: In the StoppingMech podcast he mentioned 2 games for proleagues of how good is mech... Can someone post link of that 2 games please?
That podcast had its own thread. motbob posted the videos there.
On June 05 2009 12:01 threepool wrote: OK, so I'm trying out this advice, and I have some questions.
I'm working on 5 hatch hydra PvZ on blue storm. I'm starting to wonder if this is a) too specific, or b) not specific enough.
a) Of course, it is not possible to play 5 hatch hydra every single game, it's totally inappropriate if he 2 gates, or does FE into speedzealots for example. So I seem to need at least 3 fairly distinct game plans.
right on the money. this is EXACTLY how you should be thinking about it. for me, my 3 big categories are A) fast gas, B) 2 gate, C) early expand. I further break those down by A1) sair first A2) reaver first A3) templar/legspeed etc etc. If you're having trouble, just make the categories bigger (like A) 1 base, B) 2 base, A1) aggressive early A2) passive early)
b) You mentioned that 2 hatch lair into 5 hatch hydra is good at forcing your fast expanding opponent into corsair play. Would that make this build appropriate for someone who wants to practice 5 hatch hydra? It would in theory reduce my options... but it wouldn't really, I'd still need to know how to handle the situation if he ignored my early lair and went for a ground push.
yeah i think 3 hatch into 5 hatch hydra is easier. opening w/ 2 hatch requires a huge comfort managing your larvae properly, which is still a pain for me after 12 years of zerging
Sorry if I sound a little bit like a robot in this post (I know you're encouraging us to think for ourselves) but I feel a little stuck when I sit down to work on one specific thing, as you suggest, and only get 1 game out of 8 in which I actually get to build 5 hatcheries and make hydralisks. (half of those were proxies, but never mind) Since you promise excellent results, I want to make sure I'm following your advice correctly.
you're asking ALL the right questions in the right fashion too. keep trying to give your own answers and test things out!!! the #1 important thing i would suggest is to boost your macro a bunch. macro is the MOST IMPORTANT ELEMENT FOR STRONG GAMEPLAY AND FOR LEARNING. in other words, you could have thought up the "right solution," had shitty macro, and then have incorrectly learned that the "right solution" was wrong. for instance, 5hatch hydra is clearly a solid build, as its one of the standard plays for pros these days. however, the first time someone w/ bad macro tries it, he might say "i die before i get my 5 hatches up, this build is terrible!! anyone who gets to the mid-game is just lucky they didn't die!" etc etc
I really think these podcasts will be the final push some low level players will need to break out and begin really growing in their gameplay. Good work, bro.
What would happen if we put iNc, Machine, Lz, ret, AZ and Day in a room with just microphones and recording gear and told them to produce a Zerg oriented podcast.
I might just switch back :o
Love the podcasts, always helping (well.. I think they are )
On June 08 2009 19:42 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote: Seeing AZ respond makes me wonder:
What would happen if we put iNc, Machine, Lz, ret, AZ and Day in a room with just microphones and recording gear and told them to produce a Zerg oriented podcast.
I might just switch back :o
Love the podcasts, always helping (well.. I think they are )
Could you do one about the late game big MnM armies? Whenever TvZ gets long, i find myself just sending my marines and meds to battle and never controling them otherwise... I feel helpless trying to control such big masses. Would be really appreciated, THANKS!!!
On June 18 2009 14:51 moonman wrote: I love the podcasts and how they give me a new way to think about things. I only wish there were more examples from the protoss point of view.
Aha but he plays zerg and it's fortunate I tried to play more Zerg since last year. Anyways when's the new one gonna be out?! I really want 2Hatch vs 3Hatch... I love 2 Hatch, so old school and baller yellowistique
On June 08 2009 19:42 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote: Seeing AZ respond makes me wonder:
What would happen if we put iNc, Machine, Lz, ret, AZ and Day in a room with just microphones and recording gear and told them to produce a Zerg oriented podcast.
They'll all dissapear and overmind would take over the room and we'll be his cerebrates
Me too, really wanting 2hatch vs 3hatch to come out. Currently I always 3hatch in ZvT, 3hatch spire > 5 hatch hydra in ZvP with a close 3rd gas, and 2hatch lurk in ZvP with a far 3rd gas. I'm still trying to find out what the best build in ZvP is without a close 3rd gas and so far this is going pretty well. Does anyone else recommend a different build instead?
I recommend 4 hatch hydra, like Jaedong vs Shuttle on blue storm in the gom season 1 semifinals. I think a lot of the games near the end of the blue storm use were 4 hatch hydra but I don't really remember anymore.
Well on maps with a far away 3rd gas I usually go 2nd hatch > pool > 3rd hatch > 4th hatch > lair + second gas at same time > den > hydra speed > spire > overlord speed > make a bunch of hydras and take a 3rd gas with 5th hatch. I just like the build on maps with close mineral onlys because of the really fast 2nd gas. There aren't that many examples of it on maps with a far away 3rd gas but from what I remember:
Xiaoxi went 4 hatch hydra in his games vs PJ in a Bo7 in whatever league it was that had idra vs PJ finals. His builds were more like rushes though which I like just as much. On Medusa I think he took 4 bases with his 4 hatches even though he ended up cannon breaking him.
Dinot did it in his games vs JF in liquibition. Andromeda is weird as all builds take a fast 4th but it still shows the build order.
What no way Python it's far lol the topleft/bottomright bases are so close to your nat it's literally your nat's nat. I think you might be playing ZvT style where you only feel safe taking a main base or something(and put 2 lurkers on ramp) I think as long as you put your army near the ridges between the nat and that base you'll be okay in defending that.
Yea I guess. I like to do 4 hatch hydra pressure with speed before lair on Python anyways so most of the time I just take a mineral only and then extend to another main until I'm on 5 bases. I read somewhere a long time ago, I think maybe on some b.net attack sub or something, that a lot of progamers didn't like going FE on python because the nat is really wide and open, so I figure I may as well take advantage of that and get some early hydras to force a ton of cannons.
i've been really bad about getting another one of these done. internship is a bit hectic these days, so hopefully i'll record like 4-5 in one sitting, and then release them 1 by 1 so these long gaps stop happening lol
well you've still got the icon, so grats Day[9], btw your rant about that epic 2v2v2 on the ret stream was about the fucking funniest thing I've heard in ages!
thanks again for the podcast. and i would have to say that from my watching of pro league lately, when he is on... BackHo is really good with his timings. hes also really good with dragoons, just ask + Show Spoiler +
Suggested new topic: Planning and adapting; how to and why including small adaptations like making a few more zealots vs exansion large adaptations like arbiters/mass army vs carriers/small army other adaptations like attack vs expand EDIT: delay adaptations like reaver+2zeals or 2reavers w/shuttle speed
Inspired by the latest podcast I decided to look into some of the zerg timings.
ZvP: If you start your gas at the same time as his gateway his first corsair will reach your base around 30-40 seconds before your first scourges pop. If he wants to check out your whole base he won't have time to kill an overlord, but it will be tight and he might decide to go straight for the overlord.
If you instead want to defend with hydras you can take your first gas right as his stargate starts and you'll have hydras out just as he reaches your base. This is very useful to know vs 1base builds. If you're already mining gas you should lay the hydra den around when the stargate is a little more than half way done.
ZvT: If you start your qnest when his factory is just slightly more than halfway done you'll have consume a minute after his vessel pops, which should be fine. The next thing is to consider when you want to aim for the defiler before the push and when you want to delay it till the second push.
I've been listening to these audios all day (amazing btw!) and i was curious about what he said during the "play against weaker opponents" audio where he said to drop down to D to face weaker opponents... how do you?
I tried making a new account and couldn't (i assume its bound to IP or something?) i dunno, any help?
Hey D9 buddy, do u do toss strats? If so could you give macro tips and whatnot, I always do great with micro and placement but my macro screws me over in the end, thanks!
Do we suggest topics for you here? Do you think one day you could cover Zerg vs Zerg? Such as covering the 3 basic BOs (9pool 12pool 12hatch) and what the goal is for each of them compared to what your opponent is doing (such as if you 12pool and your opponent 12hatchs how do you want to play). Maybe cover how to scout and adapt also (although that's really vague of a topic :\).
ZvZ is by far my weakest match-up not only because it's hard to find a Zerg on ICCUP (let alone one who wont kick me because he doesn't want to ZvZ) but also because there are so few guides on ZvZ out there (other than BOs and muta-micro / muta vs scourge guides).
I have something to put out there for anyone looking better their mouse accuracy. Day9 does mention Mission Red and Minesweeper for training. For people who has pretty bad accuracy or tires of the repetitive nature of Minesweeper and Mission Red I would recommend at least trying out a game called OSU.
OSU is a musical game where you must click the circles that go with the song, basically exactly like Elite Beat Agents for the DS. It's all user made "beatmaps" so you can probably find a song you like, or if you just want a challenge like me there are some very difficult ones around.
I personally like Mission Red and Minesweeper but playing OSU between those two helps with the repetitive feeling you may get while training. OSU is fun and still helps train your mouse accuracy (though not as precisely).
Hope this helps anyone increase their mouse accuracy!
I was going to post a new thread on it somewhere but I wasn't sure if it's worthy enough. I know a lot of people don't really read many comments on threads like this and a lot of people probably won't even come back to this.
If anyone feels like it's really helpful feel free to post it somewhere for others. Don't need to give credit on the find to me ;P. I just like helping out anyone in need of it.
I'll try OSU out right after I listen to the 30 minute long mechanics one. I've already listened to a couple and I'm pretty sure that these podcasts will help a lot.
i need to play that OSU game a lot because I recently increased my mouse sensitivity and my splits are horrible now.
Thank you for taking your time to make these recordings. They were a great help. I like your analytic approach to build orders, very insightful. Oh and the music is terrific! Cheers.
Every time u guys bump this i get excited and think there's a new one, but then i get disappointed! Especially since on the sidebar it appears as: "Day[9] Audio Podcasts E1...", so it could be either 10 or 11. Gah!
On July 28 2009 00:53 darkmarksman wrote: Every time u guys bump this i get excited and think there's a new one, but then i get disappointed! Especially since on the sidebar it appears as: "Day[9] Audio Podcasts E1...", so it could be either 10 or 11. Gah!
Yeah, people should stop bumping this threa- OH SHIIIIIIIIT
On July 28 2009 00:53 darkmarksman wrote: Every time u guys bump this i get excited and think there's a new one, but then i get disappointed! Especially since on the sidebar it appears as: "Day[9] Audio Podcasts E1...", so it could be either 10 or 11. Gah!
I had this exact thought just now when I saw the thread
Thanks for the podcasts, they've been very useful, particularly the tip about moving the mouse closer to the edge of the desk.
Hmm, I have a question : What's the best way to utilize offracing as a way to help you with your main race's matchups vs that race. For instance, I offrace as zerg vs protoss when I'm tired of PvP, but I do this because my PvZ is ridiculously weak(I'm 10-33 vs Zerg on iccup despite being 44 and 40% vs P and T respectively). However, despite this improving my ZvP, it has not really translated to an improvement in my PvZ at all. A large part of my problem is mechanics, but I feel as though I'm just not playing ZvP in a way that helps my PvZ, that my thinking during the differing matchups seems too different to translate back and forth between them rapidly. Edit : This question could also just be how to improve a weak matchup. I assumed it would involve offracing, but I may be wrong.
On July 28 2009 00:53 darkmarksman wrote: Every time u guys bump this i get excited and think there's a new one, but then i get disappointed! Especially since on the sidebar it appears as: "Day[9] Audio Podcasts E1...", so it could be either 10 or 11. Gah!
I had this exact thought just now when I saw the thread
Happens to me all the time, untill i started holding my mouse over the name for a second to see if the title has changed at all, still get dissapointed when it hasen't changed though ;;
after many big posts I wanted to make on tl.net to pop my own cherry and giving up everytime, I'm gonna end up making a trivial one instead. HUGE THANKS for those podcasts, definitely looking for some more of those. Not only the input is clean and understandable, but it brings you to some answers that lead to better questions, so thanks again.
On a personal part I have a big time issue handling my eco/hatch ratio once late game play kicks in as Z, not only that but mechanically as well however; I'm trying to find different ways to distribute my hkeys and fkeys.
Since the building trigger concept, which I was somewhat using but unconsciously and thx to your podcast about it I'm fully trying to intertwine everything in my little builds right to late game, with all timings written down, (and in that it also helped me understanding and using generic bo's a lot more effeciently) but somehow it feels like I'm lacking speed, it can't be about a trained thought of having everything mapped in my mind since I have been drilling bo's over and over lately. That again thanks to you; but the eco/hatch ratio doesn't feel right. Now where this becomes my major concern is that I always make ONE drone whatsoever at any moment to make sure I'm fully exploiting every single larva popping again on all of my hatcheries (thank you drone=1 larvae trigger). I'm feeling a bit confused. Anyways short post my arse there goes another monologue of mine >_< I'll post again later to say if I managed to find the right question to my late gaming issue. And TL rocks.
On July 28 2009 00:53 darkmarksman wrote: Every time u guys bump this i get excited and think there's a new one, but then i get disappointed! Especially since on the sidebar it appears as: "Day[9] Audio Podcasts E1...", so it could be either 10 or 11. Gah!
Yea, they should cut out audio so that the episode number is clear.
awesome cast as usual, but i disagree with a couple things u said in this one. Imo zlot/dragoon is alot worse at defending your ramp against 6-8 zerglings because dragoons only do 10damage to lings and attack slower than zlots. if u go zlot/zlot/dragoon u can have your 1st two zlots positioned with a probe in between them so that the probe assists them for 2 hits = ling kill and its alot harder for the zerg to surround and kill one zlot whereas if you had a dragoon the zlot would have to be slightly in front of the dragoon due to its size and is therefore easier to surround by zerglings - then you are left with only 1 dragoon which does very little damage. Also i dont understand how you can get a corsair before your FIRST zlot?? and still defend against 9pool?? afaik lings would be inside your base before your 1st zlot is even finished in that case. i will try this build out anyhow and see how it works.
On August 05 2009 13:41 FyRe_DragOn wrote: awesome cast as usual, but i disagree with a couple things u said in this one. Imo zlot/dragoon is alot worse at defending your ramp against 6-8 zerglings because dragoons only do 10damage to lings and attack slower than zlots. if u go zlot/zlot/dragoon u can have your 1st two zlots positioned with a probe in between them so that the probe assists them for 2 hits = ling kill and its alot harder for the zerg to surround and kill one zlot whereas if you had a dragoon the zlot would have to be slightly in front of the dragoon due to its size and is therefore easier to surround by zerglings - then you are left with only 1 dragoon which does very little damage. Also i dont understand how you can get a corsair before your FIRST zlot?? and still defend against 9pool?? afaik lings would be inside your base before your 1st zlot is even finished in that case. i will try this build out anyhow and see how it works.
I agree with this. I think zealot, stargate, zealot, goon works the best. Even with zealot before stargate, you have to pull probes to hold the 9 opol. At least that's what I find when doing 1gate tech. Against the more aggressive zergs that try to break the ramp with mass lings I try to always keep at least two zealots + shield battery before I get a goon.
But other than that I loved this cast! Whenever I went goon/reaver I always ended up doing FE. I guess that was the problem. It was always slow and ineffective. Thanks Day[9].
Quick question: Is there a way to hold 3hatch (or 2hatch) hydra all-in when you do 1gate tech? I always get completely overwhelmed.
On August 05 2009 13:41 FyRe_DragOn wrote: awesome cast as usual, but i disagree with a couple things u said in this one. Imo zlot/dragoon is alot worse at defending your ramp against 6-8 zerglings because dragoons only do 10damage to lings and attack slower than zlots. if u go zlot/zlot/dragoon u can have your 1st two zlots positioned with a probe in between them so that the probe assists them for 2 hits = ling kill and its alot harder for the zerg to surround and kill one zlot whereas if you had a dragoon the zlot would have to be slightly in front of the dragoon due to its size and is therefore easier to surround by zerglings - then you are left with only 1 dragoon which does very little damage. Also i dont understand how you can get a corsair before your FIRST zlot?? and still defend against 9pool?? afaik lings would be inside your base before your 1st zlot is even finished in that case. i will try this build out anyhow and see how it works.
sorry i meant to start building the stargate BEFORE you start making your first zeal
also, ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS
ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS
go zeal goon zeal. no matter how many calculations you do, the goons range makes it invaluable. you can't keep lings in the protoss base indefinitely if he gets a goon that quickly. trust me, i've 9pooled against fast gassing tosses alot and the fast goon ones are always much much much more difficult to deal with
lol... I haven't listened to it yet, cause I'm still at home, but I'll listen to it in my car when I'm out of the house. Looking forward to it though, thanks Sean.
hahaha yeah even as zerg player I was like first Zealot after Stargate isn't that awfully late what?
Question: When I play zerg my preferred lategame army (ZvP and ZvT no mech) is ultra-ling. Does this mean that I should only do builds that transition well into that, or does it mean that if I'm going to do another build I should aim for a different lategame army composition?
On August 05 2009 14:05 Day[9] wrote: FUCKFUCKFUCKFUCK
sorry i was saying/typing the wrong thing
i meant ZEALOT AFTER CYBERCORE
not zealot after stargate
i dunno how i said that so many times w/o reading what i was saying
oopsies
still zeal/goon/zeal all day
ok i tested out the first few minutes of your build on single player. with zlot after stargate (lol i see that was a mistake now) ud get ur 1st zlot at 3:30 by which time zerglings are in your base already.
with zlot after core u get your 1st zlot out at 2:50 which is just in time to block your ramp with the assisance of a few probes in the case of an OVERpool. the 2nd zlot (or dragoon) comes out around 3:30 and the corsair comes out around 4minutes. assuming the zerg sees an open ramp and goes for a ramp break, and also assuming u micro decently you should be able to hold it off with either a damaged zlot or a couple lost probes. now if the zerg continues to pump lings, and assuming those lings are speed upgraded (otherwise continuing to pressure would be retarded) the zerg will most likely be able to either kill some more probes and get into your main, kill the zlot and get into your main, or kill either and not get into your main. in the case that he does get into your main, the dragoon is very useful in preventing him from harassing your probe line. However, if the zerg waits for 10-12 lings and speed upgrade before attacking, i believe the zlot/dragoon at your ramp might not be adequate defense (havent tested this scenario out yet tho) and u could get overwhelmed if the zerg decides to go for a brute force instead of harass option. in that case ud have to pull more probes off and micro well (probably saving yourself with the 2nd zlot popping out) - so in conclusion this build works well against overpool if u pull probes when u need them.
I have not tested this against regular 9pool and do not know how much faster 9pool is than overpool, but i would imagine that the zlot after core would not work in that case since in my practice games, the 1st zlot popped out 5-10 seconds before the zerglings would get to my ramp. Therefore, it would be alot smarter to actually scout early like usual to see how fast the zergs pool is if you need zlot before core or not.
anyway im not trying to diss your build or your podcast, both of which are good, just opening it up for some discussion and constructive criticism. I intend to try it in a ladder game tomorrow so well see how it goes
On August 05 2009 14:05 Day[9] wrote: FUCKFUCKFUCKFUCK
sorry i was saying/typing the wrong thing
i meant ZEALOT AFTER CYBERCORE
not zealot after stargate
i dunno how i said that so many times w/o reading what i was saying
oopsies
still zeal/goon/zeal all day
ok i tested out the first few minutes of your build on single player. with zlot after stargate (lol i see that was a mistake now) ud get ur 1st zlot at 3:30 by which time zerglings are in your base already.
with zlot after core u get your 1st zlot out at 2:50 which is just in time to block your ramp with the assisance of a few probes in the case of an OVERpool. the 2nd zlot (or dragoon) comes out around 3:30 and the corsair comes out around 4minutes. assuming the zerg sees an open ramp and goes for a ramp break, and also assuming u micro decently you should be able to hold it off with either a damaged zlot or a couple lost probes. now if the zerg continues to pump lings, and assuming those lings are speed upgraded (otherwise continuing to pressure would be retarded) the zerg will most likely be able to either kill some more probes and get into your main, kill the zlot and get into your main, or kill either and not get into your main. in the case that he does get into your main, the dragoon is very useful in preventing him from harassing your probe line. However, if the zerg waits for 10-12 lings and speed upgrade before attacking, i believe the zlot/dragoon at your ramp might not be adequate defense (havent tested this scenario out yet tho) and u could get overwhelmed if the zerg decides to go for a brute force instead of harass option. in that case ud have to pull more probes off and micro well (probably saving yourself with the 2nd zlot popping out) - so in conclusion this build works well against overpool if u pull probes when u need them.
I have not tested this against regular 9pool and do not know how much faster 9pool is than overpool, but i would imagine that the zlot after core would not work in that case since in my practice games, the 1st zlot popped out 5-10 seconds before the zerglings would get to my ramp. Therefore, it would be alot smarter to actually scout early like usual to see how fast the zergs pool is if you need zlot before core or not.
anyway im not trying to diss your build or your podcast, both of which are good, just opening it up for some discussion and constructive criticism. I intend to try it in a ladder game tomorrow so well see how it goes
In the case of many speedlings I like to make more zealots and a shield battery. It's very difficult for the zerg to break your ramp with a shield battery (make sure you build it in range of the ramp though). In this case your sair should be even more potent since he has a later spire/ later hydras.
This is how I deal with the lings. Good micro could let you get away for a lot less minerals I would think. This Bisu fpvod is what I try to emulate when 1gate teching
So, I've played against this with Z and used it with P a couple of times. I find the build good, but I think it's a bit too predictable and a bit hard vs 12hatch. Since you get the zealot out late, I as zerg can see what your up too with my drone, and then before your corsair gets to my base i can have all my overlords hovering over a spore colony.
After I get enough drones to support 3 hatch hydra, the protoss can't kill me with the goon reaver push, so he takes his expo and I take my 3rd and 4th and win by having way more econ.
So my question is. What do you do if your sair DOESN'T DO ANY DAMAGE? because if the sair doesnt do damage, the early attack won't do damage,and then the push with reavers won't do any damage either.
I don't get why you're advocating zealot goon zealot for D rank players against 9 pool. A D rank zerg with 8 zerglings will always beat a D rank protoss with a zealot and dragoon. Obviously your build is playable at higher levels but assuming both players are bad the protoss cannot hold his ramp vs 9 pool.
oh... COME ON... no Zerg... its your race man!! :D Make us gosu! make Zerg win rate 99% :D Some ZvZ&ZvT&ZvP mix with general micro macro tips mixed with some advices on advanced mechanics for Z E R G! :D
gg :'(
Thanks anyway :D you rock :D gotta play some P games to piss zergs off :D
On August 05 2009 22:17 Kwark wrote: I don't get why you're advocating zealot goon zealot for D rank players against 9 pool. A D rank zerg with 8 zerglings will always beat a D rank protoss with a zealot and dragoon. Obviously your build is playable at higher levels but assuming both players are bad the protoss cannot hold his ramp vs 9 pool.
holding vs a 9pool is perhaps the ONLY difficult aspect of this build. since you've identified the issue, the goal is to practice it, not to avoid it.
so, if you're a player struggling to hold a 9pool, get a friend to 9pool you for 2 hours until you feel awesome with it.
that said, if the ENTIRE BUILD were really technical and difficult (such as the fantasy's vionic play) then i would steer them away to something more straightforward (like this build! :D)
I was thinking of what to get next...I was thinking the [9] but you might be adverse to that >.<.
The [G] is probably a better choice.
If you're having trouble versus 9 pool or overpool you could pull 1 or 2 probes to help out your first zeal, shouldn't hurt you too much and helps take down those zerglings.
i just tried the strat from the latest episode in a d-level game on athena. it worked pretty pretty well. it worked even with the zerg trying to break my ramp with a shitload of lings.
and i build my first zealot after starting my stargate.
the zerg wasn't that good though and the game lagged like hell. i almost lost my reaver because of that. but with a little practice this could be a powerful pvz build on certain maps.
Sorry if I missed a mention but are there replays out anywhere? one facing 9pool and other one versus 12hatch?
Also. Say that your first push somehow gets totally annihilated, is there any real way to come back? Ill try to skim something from repdepot just in case someone uploaded this BO with a name I can identify it.
On August 06 2009 20:29 jhNz wrote: i just tried the strat from the latest episode in a d-level game on athena. it worked pretty pretty well. it worked even with the zerg trying to break my ramp with a shitload of lings.
and i build my first zealot after starting my stargate.
the zerg wasn't that good though and the game lagged like hell. i almost lost my reaver because of that. but with a little practice this could be a powerful pvz build on certain maps.
thanks for sharing this sean!
First zealot after core, not stargate. day9 corrected himself on pg 33.
On August 06 2009 20:29 jhNz wrote: i just tried the strat from the latest episode in a d-level game on athena. it worked pretty pretty well. it worked even with the zerg trying to break my ramp with a shitload of lings.
and i build my first zealot after starting my stargate.
the zerg wasn't that good though and the game lagged like hell. i almost lost my reaver because of that. but with a little practice this could be a powerful pvz build on certain maps.
thanks for sharing this sean!
First zealot after core, not stargate. day9 corrected himself on pg 33.
didn't read through the thread. but it even worked the way i did it o_O
Not to take away from your achievement, but he had like 56 apm. Theres very little you could have done that wouldnt have beaten him, as long as you macroed fine.
I have a few questions about the build, but the main one that is bothering me is:
When do you transition out of reaver, and/or when to get a shuttle? After two reavers from robo, should you stop, add gateways, make a shuttle with shuttle speed and start pumping corsair, or make an additional reaver? I know everything is dependant, I am assuming a "simple" build to play against [meaning no transition really required, have options], such as 3hatch scourge into 5hatch hydra without fast lurkers, and assuming that my push is working relatively well and I am keeping my reavers alive, but the push has not done critical damage to the point of winning yet.
I have yet to reach a late game with this build. Is sair/reaver an option? I am not sure I have adequate APM to pull it off, so I've never attempted it. Can you use the reavers to defend your nat/third, and get late templar tech and play more standard?
I like this builds ability to throw my opponent off his game. Most zergs are so used to forge/fe at this point, that I think some one-base bos could come in handy for me. Anyone use the build and have suggestions on this?
3hatch scourge --> 5hatch hydra is only applicable to FE PvZ. In my runs with this build, 3hatch hydra on two bases shows up a lot. (Usually with either spire or lurker tech, when I push their main, but shuttle-->2reavers-->obs has worked against either.)
Regarding sair/reaver... I feel like if your opponent invested significantly in spire units, you should wreck him with your push, and if he didn't, you don't need sairs for reaver harass (except your first one to scout the drop site). Maybe if your push gets owned and you end up turtled in on 2 bases, with Reavers to defend... that seems a logical time for sair/reaver.
don't forget the option of letting the 9pool up your ramp (ie not trying to block it w/ zeals+probes)
your buildings should be REALLY tight to your nexus, so if you don't send a bunch of probes then you'll have the extra cash boost to get the sair faster. plus, when you go zeal/goon/zeal, you can abuse your really nice narrow passages around your nexus and take 2-3 probes off mining when you need (favoring to take off gas since you won't need a ton for a bit)
should work much easier than trying to do some miracle ramp hold w/ 1 zeal and 8 probes
To completely remove mouse acceleration from XP, you will need to go into the registry and adjust the SmoothmouseXYCurve values. Here is how its done.
1. Click Start button 2. Select Run 3. Type 'regedit' in the open textbox 4. Open the tree 'HKEY_CURRENT_USER', select control panel, then select mouse 5. Right clicking, modify the SmoothMouseXCurve and SmoothMouseYCurve hexidecimal values to the following:
hey can anyone seed or make a torrent about this? im really having a hard time downloading all of it since i dont have a very stable connection, it just cuts off midway =/ if you have though, please post a torrent or something... thanks
Isn't Zerg way ahead if he just goes for like den after sair starts while going pure drone off 3 hatch and gets one hydra vs the corsair? He'll have full 2 base saturation in no time and can go mutas or hydras or anything.
jhNz: I was tempted to stop watching when the zerg placed his second hatchery. I hope you don't see it as an accomplishment that you beat him. Actually, the fact that you took as long as 10 minutes makes me think that you did something very wrong. :/
On August 12 2009 14:57 Day[9] wrote: don't forget the option of letting the 9pool up your ramp (ie not trying to block it w/ zeals+probes
Would you ever NOT want to do this? I assumed that was the point of zeal goon zeal instead of zeal zeal goon... because dragoons dancing around in an open space or in the mineral line are very hard to kill.
The fastest possible corsair off a 10gate is according to my tests at the Zerg's natural at 4:20 (core right after gate, stargate right after core, corsair right after stargate) on Destination. According to my tests a corsair takes about 16 seconds to kill an overlord. If Zerg opens overpool and goes for 11hatch, 14hatch(6 lings and a drone), 13gas, and den as soon as he gets 50 gas, he gets a hydralisk out at his natural at about 4:26. Even if the corsair went straight for the zerg's natural instead of scouting his main(which is HIGHLY unlikely), the overlord will be at around 60hp when a hydralisk or two pops, making the corsair harrass highly useless.
Even if that would be too late, the Zerg can always sacrifice a little bit of economy and go for 13hatch 12gas and he'll have the hydra out in time easily. If he puts all of his overlords at his nat, he won't need more than 1 or possibly 2 hydralisks and can continue massing pure drones. If the P starts moving out a few seconds after this (Which he really shouldn't, with 2 zealots and a goon?), Z can easily get a few more lings or even a sunken if necessary. Then he can mass pure drones for a while and have a way better eco than P and own him.
On March 17 2009 14:28 thunk wrote: A lot of your talks have transcripts. I think it'd be great if you could spoiler the transcripts (and link to the original thread for the ones you have already done).
Thanks, I'll be sure to listen!
You should do a talk about guessing tech based on unit composition.
I tried looking for the transcripts (I Googled and everything), but I could only find these two:
On January 07 2009 09:15 motbob wrote: Well, I'll get started transcribing it.
Hey everyone! This is Day[9], and I'm going to talk a little bit about defeating a Terran mech as a zerg player. So ever since Fantasy did his cute mech shit against GGplay, all anyone wants to do is mech. And that's fine; mech's cool; it's the current trend of the moment; it was never weak or strong. It's just an alternative type of play.
But the problem is that when I read the strategy forum or even watch the professionals play, I want to vomit. I feel like so much of the advice and the current ideas of how to play against mech is just totally wrong. Now, I'm a little unusual in that I've been around forever. I've been playing competitively for 10 years. There was a period way back when when mech was just as popular as it is now. That gave me the opportunity to spend a lot of time practicing against and thinking about the dynamics of mech play. So I want to share a little bit with you guys about my experience against mech and what I feel is the correct way to think about and counteract a good Terran mech player.
So first, let's talk about the strengths and weaknesses of a mech build, then let's analyse what's wrong with current thought and play, and then I'll give some more concrete tips at the end and even a loose build that you guys can play around with.
So, let's dive right in and talk about the three major strengths and weaknesses of mech, in my opinion. Number 1: mech is good with big, one-punch-style pushes. Number two: mech is great at holding territory and playing defensively. Number three: mech is great at fucking with the Zerg early game.
Let's go ahead and talk about those three concepts in depth. First, I'll talk about this one-punch style army concept that I mentioned. This idea is that in small numbers, Zerg has an advantage over a mech army. In medium sized armies they're fairly even. But once you start talking about big, large armies, the mech army is way better than whatever Zerg can throw at it. So, the way this manifests itself in games is that Terrans will much often favor a timing push that is significantly later in the game, because early-game pushes are just so dangerous. In fact, it's often a bad idea to be very aggressive early on as a meching Terran player.
Number two: holding territory and playing defensively. With seige tanks and mines and goliaths, you can set yourself up and plant yourself and be almost inpenatrable. Two great examples of this are Mind vs s2 on the Dec. 15th proleague,
which is a great example of the way mech can "hold the line" in a way that MnM can't.
Another good example is Flash vs Savior on Baekmagoji.
Flash just had so much stuff that when Savior attacked with infinity Ultralisks, they evaporated immediately and Flash was just sitting there pumping his fist like a 15 year old.
The third thing is that mech is very good at screwing with the zerg early on. This is because they don't need that barracks, so they can do things like proxy barracks openings that don't really screw with the later stages of their mech build, and because vultures are so fucking obnoxious. They plant mines and dart around and kill drones, and whatnot.
So yeah, that is what a mech army is good at, and I'll constantly be coming back and referring to these things throughout this rant...thing. Now let's talk about what mech is bad at.
In order, the three weaknesses that mech has (in my opinion) are thus: one, mech has a huge problem with mobility; two, mech is not very good with applying pressure throughout the game; three, mech play has a weak mid-game (sort of an extension of the first two weaknesses). I'll talk about those in depth.
About mobility. Terran players often need to plant mines, but even if the Terran player isn't making many vultures, his tanks need to be seiged to maximize damage. So it's very difficult for a meched Terran to dart this way and that in the fashion that MnM does. And again (this is sort of an extention of the big push notion) the Terran can't really do these ninja-like things where it breaks its army into small pieces and splits up, because in small numbers, zerg is better against small groups of mech. So, Terran players suffer from a huge lack of mobility.
The second thing is the applying of pressure. Same thing: the Terran cannot break his army up and do dicotymous things, so the way mech players win is by doing huge pushes. Yeah, there's vulture harass in the mig-game, but I'll talk abouthow to negate that in a moment.
The third thing is the meched Terran's weak mid-game. That is the point in time when a Zerg player really needs to attack. The Terran player must play defensively in the midgame, because it can't push, and if it does vulture harass, it gets completely crushed by hydras. This is the point where Zerg can take a lot of expansions and win economically.
So, to recap, a meching Terran is very slow, but extremely strong. So the Zerg player cannot win by being cute. The Zerg player can't win with three lurkers and a dark swarm and feel clever. The Zerg player needs to win by having a lot of shit. And the way the Zerg does that is by creating a powerful economy by exploiting the Terran's midgame immobility.
Now, before I talk about good ways to deal with mech, I have to point out what is so bad about current theory and practice against mech. I can sum it up with the following: people play against mech the same way as they play against a MnM Terran. You just can't so that. For some reason, people think that you play a certain way against Terran, and it doesn't matter what Terran does. But against a meching Terran, you should treat it as a totally different matchup.
So let me list some things that are bad that you should not do. And yeah, there are obvious exceptions but on the whole, you should not do the following things.
-Don't go for a really fast mutalisk harass. I see a lot of players think they're really clever, getting their 3hatch, their spire, and going to kill a lot of SCVs, but the problem is that that doesn't work against goliaths. Against MnM it's great because the MnM sometimes gets isolated from each other and you can pick some off, and the SCVs can be taken out because the range upgrade is delayed blah blah blah... but goliaths have like infinite range and deal a fuckton of damage against air, so when you run in feeling so fucking clever, you leave with a bunch of dead mutalisks and the rest are red health. And that effectively gives you no advantage. It is very difficult to abuse a meching Terran with really aggressive harass. I mean, if you can pick off an SCV, do it, but don't make the cornerstone of your gameplay about getting an advantage with fast harassment because it will not happen.
-Do not rely on lurkers against a meching Terran. Against MnM, lurkers make perfect sense. Six lurkers can kill off like infinity MnM. I mean, you only need two lurkers to defend an entire expansion against Terran in the midgame. And again, a major purpose of lurkers is getting a little bit of map control in the midgame, because he doesn't have mobile detection. Meching players are already immobile in the midgame. They're not trying to attack in the midgame. They're going to wait until the later stages of the game where not only will they have detection, but they'll have an army that will completely kill the shit out of your lurkers. They'll have tanks and goliaths, which take many hits from lurkers and have very long range. So the fact that the lurker attack stacks is completely meaningless. In fact, if you do the math, you'll find that lurkers are extremely cost-ineffective at killing tanks, when compared to zerglings etc.
-Do not rely on defilers to beat a mech player. Now, this argument is a little tricky, but it's absolutely crucial that you understand this, or else your play against meched Terran will be crippled. Let's think about defilers against MnM. Defilers make perfect sense, because your lurkers that were oh-so-good in the midgame are now in serious danger from vessels and tanks. But hey, don't worry, you can throw down some dark swarms, and now you're totally safe against the MnM army. Now, against mech, it's not that defilers are bad, it's that defilers are significantly worse against mech when compared to MnM. Picture yourself getting ready to attack a mech army. It's spread out with tanks. The units are physically big, so even when they're as clustered as they can be, they're still fairly spread out. When the Terran has all his tanks seiged, and occasionally he'll have mines there too, your army will be eaten alive by the tanks, even in dark swarm, by the splash damage. You're dealing with 15-25 tanks against mech. You're not dealing with the 3-5 tanks you usually see against MnM. So, you just need to have a lot of units. You can't rely on the dark swarm. It is good, it might be the thing that tips the balance in your favor in a big battle, but you can't lock yourself into that mindset of "OK, I have my Hive, I need to get my defilers so that I can stay alive." That's the mindset that you have against a MnM player, not the mindset that you should have against a meching Terran player.
-Don't build Ultralisks. Ultralisks are great against MnM because the Ultra armor is so high that MnM shots barely do anything. The problem is against mech, it is the exact opposite. Ultralisks maximize the damage that a tank does. When a tank fires at a zergling, it can do at most 35 damage, because a zergling has 35 life. Against an Ultra, the tank does the full 70 damage, not including upgrades. When you throw splash damage and mines in there, Ultras get EATEN A-L-LIVE by a mech army. For an example, watch the second Youtube video. You will laugh at how many Ultralisks Savior lost at the end of that game. Now I actually did a calculation on this, about Ultraling against mech. It's shocking how ineffective Ultraling is against mech in terms of damage taken vs damage dealt. A much better spending of your money is on simple ground units, like zerglings and hydralisks. Those are going to be the core of your army, because again, against mech, you're not trying to make a "cute" army, with defilers and lurkers and Ultralisks. You just want an army that is a lot of shit.
to be continued...
On January 07 2009 11:31 qrs wrote: Nice. I'll continue it for a bit:
And part of the reason, I think, that ultralisk/zergling is so popular is that players will develop an enormous economic advantage in the midgame--correctly so--and at that point, it hardly matters what the Zerg does in terms of unit combination. Ultralisk/ling just happens to be what the player does to win, so he incorrectly learns that ultralisk/ling is the proper counter, when it is in fact not. Again, all of what I've been talking about: this whole medic/marine mindset: it's all just ways of saying that the Zerg is not taking advantage of the fundamental weakness of a meching player, and that is the midgame immobility. A Zerg player needs to establish an extremely strong economy then, and then crush the Terran in the later stages of the game, when Terran is trying to do that big one-punch push.
OK, great. Now that I've said all that stuff, I want to give a few general tips of how to deal with a meching player, and then I'll finish things up with a build that I've done that's extremely effective, and you guys can play around with it and do whatever. It's just a good solid base:
First thing: Hydralisk/ling should be the bulk of your ground army. That minimizes the amount of damage that your army is taking as well as maximizing the damage-output that your army is doing.
In addition to that, you need to continue to make a lot of mutalisks all game long, as just an important part of your army. It's not going to be a big component of harassment; it's just really key to ensure that the Terran player is continuing to make lots of goliaths, and plus, when you expand (as much as you end up doing against mech), you can build up a very large mutalisk army anyways: you'll have like two control-groups of mutalisks in addition to your big ground army, and that is really what you want to be looking for.
Now, in terms of transitioning, when you get that hive-tech up, an excellent method for busting a stationary push, or just, you know, a Terran line that's just sitting defensively and holding a whole bunch of expansions: a great way to bust that, when you get the hive-tech, is to get guardians. You can get 15-20 guardians without much difficulty, because, again, you're delaying your hive-tech by opting to expand much more in the midgame, so by the time you get hive, you have a really strong economy and a ton of mutalisks already. And that is what's going to really help you bust that push, because they have equal range to goliaths, and they can break the tank lines really well for your ground army.
In terms of defilers: Defilers should really be the latest evolution of your play, it should be the last thing you transition to and incorporate into your army, because, again, just having the units is the most important thing, and having the expansions. Once you get a defiler, it will always help your army some, but you want to make sure that that army is substantial enough.
And, in terms of ultralisks, you've already heard my thoughts on that: I wouldn't recommend playing with it unless you're really comfortable with your play, because frankly ultralisks are very difficult and technical to use, in that matchup.
And finally, the most important tip that I can give against a meching player is that minerals are more important than gas. When you get an expansion, don't make that first drone--make a geyser (sic). The bulk of your army is going to be zerglings and hydralisks and mutalisks, and you're going to want to be expanding lots and lots. Gas is not important as any of those, and minerals are critical. What's also great about the fact that minerals are the key resource that you need: it opens up the potential for taking a lot of mineral naturals that a lot of players just seem not to have been considering against a mech player. So, yes, again: minerals are the key resource.
So let me finish things up with a really strong build-order that's brought me a huge amount of success through the years. I don't know if people think about builds the same way I do, so hopefully I make sense....But on the same note, I'm trying to make a video series about how to construct a build from scratch, and please keep pressuring me to work on that, 'cause i need motivation.
So yeah, here's my build: So, as a Zerg player, you 12-hatch at your expansion, you open completely normally, and your basic opening is just the 3-hatch opening.
Now, if your opponent bunker-rushes, you just need to be able to deal with that. You should also be checking up on your Terran, because there's three basic things that a terran can do early on: Going 2 barracks, early expanding, and then getting fast gas. You need to find out pretty early on if he's going fast gas, because that's where the deviation occurs. You start off with the 3-hatch, because if he's going medic/marine you deal with that accordingly, and if you see him going mech, you veer off into the build that I'm going to say right now.
So if he's going a fast gas, the things that we need to worry about are:
some sort of gentle early harass, with vultures, like a hidden 1-factory
or there's 2-factory aggressive play
or there's 2-port wraith
Those are the three big things: 1-factory, 2-factory, or 2-port wraith.
This is the build I recommend: You gas on 18 (and you have 3 hatches at this point). You gas on 18, making overlords at the appropriate times. With your first 50 gas you get a hydralisk den, before your lair. And then you get speed for hydralisks, before your lair. And you're going to be making between 6 and 10 hydralisks. And you're also going to be getting your second gas at an appropriate time: not too fast, but when you fiddle with this build you'll feel about when it feels right.
And also, have your overlords clustered in your base, in a way that your hydralisks are ready to defend against 2-port wraith, but also so that those overlords are ready to start wandering out into the middle of the map, because you need them as spotters against mines.
OK, great. The reason this build is doing so well for us right now is we have negated those three big things (the 1-factory harass, 2-factory harass, and the 2-port wraith), and for everything else Terran does, we're still OK. "Anything else Terran does" is like a fast dropship, or some sort of fast-academy build, and when we have speed-hydralisks we can still deal with that, because they don't have tons of medic/marine. In other words, we're not dead yet. There's nothing that we're facing that has killed us or has some sort of huge advantage.
I'm not going to talk about how to deal with 2-port wraith, because, again, the focus of this is dealing with mech. I'm just saying those initial variations to let you know that you are still OK against those things with this opening.
Now, at this point, you'll be fairly certain that your opponent is doing some type of mech build: he's planted mines in the middle of the map, say, you've--I mean, if he went 2-factory aggressive, you see a lot of mech units, and at this point, Terran is focusing on trying to get that expansion up.
As a sample map, let's say we're playing on Destination and we are at the north position. We have those overlords at our natural, ready to slide to the right expansion and ready to slide out our front ramps to spot those mines. Now, in this build, we've made 6-8 hydralisks. We have speed. Do not get range with the next 150 gas. Get a lair, and start planning on expanding. Your whole goal for the midgame is to have 4 or 5 hydras move out to an expansion and just sit to defend, you'll have another 4 or 5 hydralisks at your front and in your main, to just sit and defend, and then you're going to start expanding while getting mutalisks at the same time, and--and this is really key--and sending overlords to locations where you want to expand, because you need to clear out those mines.
Now, when that lair finishes, we're going to be going for a spire, and at this point, you're wondering: we're going for a spire and we have like 8-10 hydralisks, or whatever: what do we do with the rest of our larvae? Well you're powering drones like crazy. Because you're not worried about an early Terran push: he can't really push aggressively early on. So you're making tons of drones, you're taking one expansion at the right that's defended by those hydralisks, and you're on your way to getting mutalisks.
When those mutalisks pop out, they're great because they force the Terran to delay his push a little bit, which extends the Zerg's midgame advantage. Those mutalisks pop out, the Terran has to stop making tanks, stop making vultures, and begin pumping out goliaths. Now, you don't want to do aggressive harass, but you want to be in his face just enough to let him know that you have a lot of mutalisks. You only need to make like 9-12 at this point, and at this point you can start expanding to the top-right natural and the left natural, and you've already been making a whole ton drones and expanding a lot, and you can begin throwing down more hatcheries and some evolution chambers. And at this point you just start making tons of zerglings and hydralisks, favoring hydralisks, initially: don't start making a lot of zerglings early on, because that's a little weak. You want to start with a lot of hydralisks, and then you can add on zerglings and hatcheries at the same time.
And what ends up happening is, as the midgame progresses, he's forced to delay his push, and when he does come out, you have an absurd number of expansions: you have your main, your nat, the right natural, the left natural, and the top-right corner. And you can back-upgrade: you can get the hydralisk range, the metabolic boost for zerglings, and overlord sight-range, if you want, and just begin spreading around the map, and you will be surprised at how easy it is to have total map-control and a raging economy--and you still have a lair.
You can start teching towards that queen's nest after a little bit, but again, the emphasis of your play is going to be adding hatcheries, both as production units and at expansions, and then, for the rest of the game, you'll just have this amazing advantage.
Now, against a really good player, it's going to be difficult to make that advantage very large, so I do need to talk a little bit about later-game transitioning. As you get your hive up, it's a great idea to get guardians, but really the most important upgrade for hive is the adrenal boost for the zerglings, 'cause now you have a bunch of cracklings that are really cheap, in absurd numbers, against lots of tanks, lots of goliaths (because you've still been making those mutalisks), and a handful of vultures. (The mutalisks actually help to cut down on the vulture count tremendously, so that's really great.)
So yeah, and the rest of the game is fairly straightforward. If you're having a lot of trouble in the later stages of the game, it's a good sign that you did something wrong in the midgame, or that you're going ultralisk/zergling, which I told you not to do .
So, yeah...I hope that this rambling was useful to some people because I would have made a post, but I don't like writing as much as I like hearing myself talk . So, yeah....Merry Christmas, Team Liquid. Cheers!
THE END Edit: haha, crossposted with motbob: while I was typing all this, he was editing his post with the exact same thing. When he gets to where I stopped, he asks for someone to take over. Ah well, I'll type the rest now...
On January 20 2009 11:14 qrs wrote: I'll start transcribing, in case anyone likes it in writing. I'll edit this post as I go; just posting now, so no one duplicates the effort. OK, left off at 8:40. If anyone feels like picking it up, feel free, otherwise maybe I'll get back to it sometime later. Edit: Thanks to tribal_warfare for transcribing the second (larger) part.
Hey everyone, this is Day[9], and I want to talk about a pretty advanced concept called Building Triggers and the Imaginary Player.
So I created the Gimme questions thread a while ago, asking about questions people had, just for me to rant on about, and a huge number of them were about builds, like, If he does this, how do I respond with this? or, When's a good timing push, what's a good build, on this matchup, on this map? And so, rather than going into specific advice and trying to answer those questions, I figure it would be really nice to give some general advice that you guys can apply in a wide variety of situations. And I mentioned two at the start: the first is what's called "Building Triggers" and the second is what's called "The Imaginary Player". So let's begin with
Building Triggers
The notion of a trigger is pretty straightforward in itself: that if A happens, you do B. And even though this is really a sort of simple idea, it has powerful, powerful applications for improving you play. So let's begin with some really simple examples that I know everyone is familiar with: As Protoss, when your shuttle is halfway done, you start building a Robotics Support Bay. That way, when your shuttle finishes, you'll be able to start the reaver right on time. Or, in another example, when your Spire is at 300 hitpoints, you stop making things at all of your hatcheries: that way, when the Spire finishes, you have three larvae ready to roll at each hatchery, and you can pump out a whole bunch of mutalisks.
Virtually everyone has experienced the two triggers that I just mentioned, because they crop up in almost every single game. Any time Zerg is going for a Spire, he's going to be obeying this sort of Law of Larva-Timing. But, in terms of other triggers, people seem to treat them as though they're this mystical knowledge, that there's this oracle that appears every hundred years and dishes out some sorts of timings or whatever. But the fact remains that any player can build his own triggers if he does so in a simple incremental fashion, which is exactly what I'm going to talk about, with a personal example of my own:
Let's talk about Zerg vs. Terran on Gaia, one of my absolute favorite matchups ever. Now, assuming that I'm not in vertical positions with my opponent, I love going hydralisk/lurker, because of the way that the middle of the map is kind of wide open but also kind of looks like a large path. Now, the problem that I have when I go hydralisk/lurk--or really that any hydralisk/lurk player has--is that if the Terran gets too many tanks, it becomes increasingly difficult to stop Terran pushes. If you have some number of medic/marine and 15 well-placed tanks, it's virtually impossible to break that with any number of hydralisk/lurkers. So, in the logic of constructing my build on this map, I knew there was a point where I needed to get Guardians, and the question is: when do I get Guardians.
At this point, a critical mistake that so, so, so many players make is to think that when late-game rolls around they can just feel it out: they'll be able somehow to "feel" when Terran has too many tanks and then they'll get the Hive. That logic does not work and you should avoid this at all costs. I mean, consider early-game: suppose I'm Protoss and I want to 2-gate rush a Zerg player: I never "feel it out". I never just say, "Well I can just wing this 2-gate rush." Instead what I do is get a precise, exact, optimized build, and follow that every single time I want to 2-gate rush a Zerg player and I make subtle adjustments based upon what the Zerg player is doing. There is no reason why you can't do this late-game. And that is exactly what I'm saying: that you want to have a precise plan of what to do late-game by creating your trigger and then you make subtle adjustments based upon what's going on. With that in mind, let's discuss how I came to answer the question, "When do I get Guardians in Zerg vs. Terran on Gaia?"
Step 1, and by far the most important step in building your own trigger: I chose a timing completely arbitrarily. I said to myself, "Let's get a Hive at 125 food: that's when I'm going to get my Queen's Nest and start teching up to Guardians." And I told myself I would play at least 10 games using this exact timing to see how it felt. In the actual games, I got crushed by tank pushes every single time: the Guardians were way late. So, great: now, all of a sudden, rather than trying to "feel my way" through the late-game, I instead established a hard decision with a very clear adjustment, which was: "Get the hive earlier." At this point, I backed off a little bit, and said, "Well, let me try doing it at 90 food." And when I did it at 90 food, the results were better--I was able to hold off the pushes a little bit more effectively in the late-game, but then, all of a sudden, I was losing in the middle-game: when the Terran's first push came out, I just didn't have enough hydra/lurk to kill it off. So immediately, I know that the trigger I'm looking for, the timing I'm looking for, is somewhere between 90 and 125 food, and I ended up settling at around 100 food as a decent time to start making the Queen's Nest and teching towards those Guardians.
An important note is that I didn't need to use food as a basis for establishing these triggers. I could have used any number of wacky things. I could have said, "I'll start making my Queen's Nest when my +1 attack upgrade is 75% done." Or I could have said, "Gee, let me start making my Queen's Nest when I get my gas done at my fourth base." I mean, anything you want to use as your trigger, totally go for it. Again, the most important concept in building your own trigger is first choosing a starting point and then incrementally adjusting that based upon your experiences in play. And the most important word there is "incrementally". By far the biggest mistake that you can make when establishing these sorts of triggers is to be too hasty in making your adjustments. That's why I said that I devoted 10 games to getting my Hive at 125 food. I devoted 10 games to getting my Hive at 90 food. Because I wanted to make sure that I wasn't making some sort of fluke in those games that would incorrectly make me adjust my play in a wrong direction.
There are two key aspects of this example I briefly want to touch on. The first is that this is a late-game situation. Many players feel really daunted by late-game scenarios, because it feels like there are so many variables and deviations, and there's a million ways you could have gotten there, and it seems like an intractable problem, trying to close down on a solid solution. But, as we saw in this example, I had a very simple question and there was a very simple process I followed. And, remember, if you just break it down into small enough chunks, there is no problem that is too hard for any player at any level to solve.
The second key point--and this is so, so, so important: if there is one thing you remember from this entire recording, let it be this--I never stopped to question whether my play was right or wrong. That is, I never said, "Should I be going Guardians?" I never stopped to do that; I never stopped to question whether I should be going hydralisk/lurker or anything like that. Rather, I said, "I am going hydralisk/lurker on this map, it feels like I need to go Guardians, when do I get those Guardians?" and I tried only to answer the question when. That is it. That is so important in the improvement of your play: to focus on a question and work on that. There are countless players in Starcraft who think the goal is to find "the right build". You see these players all the time: they're 2-gate rushing, you know, one week and then the next week they're going early-expand, Bisu-style, and then the next week they're just doing whatever the current trend in Proleague is. They keep changing and changing and changing. That is not your goal. Your goal in Starcraft is not to try to find "the right build"; rather, it is to find a build that you like that is based on solid logic, and then to adjust that build, and to work on it, and to incorporate newer, better triggers that make that build work. _________________________________________________________________________ finished by tribal_warfare _________________________________________________________________________ For example, one day I woke up and said "You know what, I'm tired of going mutalisk/zerling in zerg vs zerg. I want to go hydralisk." and I spent one season on PG tour just working on that build, making adjustments, trying to form new sets of logics, doing different openings until finally I had a solid build down. The following season I went 56-1 against zerg, I was playing an A+ level; and I say that not to brag but to point out that there was absolutely nothing special about my play. I simply started with some logic and then adjusted and adjusted and adjusted. I mean the one loss I had, was not to a phenomenal player at all. It was one of the first games I played that season. But he showed me that when I was doing my opening I needed to get twelve zerglings instead of ten. I had been relying on getting ten but it was just too little for his aggressive nine pool opening. And after that adjustment I could face nine pools in the future and hold that off. Again it was just these subtle adjustments.
I'd like to take the time now to answer a question I saw in the questions thread I created as well as to dicuss a conversation I had with Xeris about this very topic of building triggers, so I apologise in advance for potentially butchering your name but Oystein from Norway asked, "When you have taken expansions outside your natural in zerg vs terran do you ever make units from the expansions or do you stick strictly to drone?" I love this question because it has a clear motivation, it has an answer with some foundational logic and it can be turned into a question that can help develop a trigger to improve your play. So first of all, let me begin with the motivation. This totally was a question that came up in my experience as a Zerg player. You know, say the map is python and I take my main and my natural and then I take another main because I'm going for the standard sort of hive tech defiler play and what not. And I remember early on in my life time I would wonder when I had that expansion, should I just keep making drones? It seemed to make sense because I wanted to have my economy slowly getting better and better and the more drones the merrier right? Moreover, I could have a nydas canal linking my main and this expansion so I could have units in both places at once, and also when I take the natural as my forth base I can just transfer drones from that expansion on down. It seemed like I could keep making drones. At the same time I saw all sorts of benefits to making units from that expansion. If I'm making a lot of units at that expansion then I'll have a small little army that I can just move right down the ramp and I can use that to defend my newly building forth expansion. Also, if I'm occasionally making a defiler and some lurkers at that third base I can use those units to counter attack and a good example of this is GGplay vs Iris in the everstar league finals game five. So I saw benefits to both. That said, to answer your question Oystein, yes, there is a time you want to stop making drones from that expansion and begin making units and the logic to this is that you have all your hatcheries make the number of drones that you want to get to the level of economy you want and then that hatchery can join in unit production and that ends up being much more efficient then just slowly adding drones one at a time at that expansion. But what is so key about Oystein's question is that now we can ask ourselves, when do we stop making drones? What is the appropriate level of economy? And now we are just starting an exercise in building a new trigger that will help us improve our play. And again, what I love so much about Oystein's question is that it has a natural motivation, it can be stated as a simple problem and all we have to do is use some simple logic to reword that that as a trigger building exercise.
In another example I was talking to my friend Xeris on the phone about one base dragoon/reaver on Requiem. Because Requiem has really close starting positions, one base and its aggressive play is really great against Zerg because the zerg has to stay low econ in the early game. So if you can get a really good timing push in there with dragoon/reaver it's surprisingly difficult to stop. As I was discussing this build with Xeris he asked me, when do I get Dragoon range? I know I want to have range when I make my push but I'm not sure if I need to get it earlier, you know, to hold off some sort of hydra/ling bust at my front. And I think that is a perfectly worded question for a trigger building exercise. So lets just outline the process that we would use in that situation. It's now time to pretend that I am a budding, young protoss super star. That I have taken it upon myself to figure out precisely when to get dragoon range on Requiem.
Step one. I need to choose an arbitrary time to start getting dragoon range so I have some place to work with, so I have some benchmark for comparision. When I say arbitrary, it's important to note that I do not mean stupid. You should always use some sort of logic to make sure you have a reasonable starting point. So, in my eyes a reasonable starting point is to get dragoon range to finish right before I make that dragoon/reaver push. So I'll say to myself that I want dragoon range to finish right as my reaver finishes. All of a sudden I have a complete army with shuttle, reaver and a bunch of dragoons with range, so now is a good time to attack. So my arbitrary timing might be, start dragoon range right when my reaver starts. What I might discover after a game or two is that the reaver finishes much more quickly then range. At this point I might say to myself, "Ok, I need to back range up. I'm going to start getting range when my shuttle begins as opposed to when my reaver begins." and lets say that timing works perfectly. So now, right as my reaver pops out, my dragoon range finishes and I'm ready to roll out. Then suppose at this time I find that my push gets crushed over and over again. I think to myself, "Hmm, I need to get that second reaver before my attack." As a result, I no longer need to get dragoon range so early. Let me start getting dragoon range when my first reaver begins, as opposed to when my shuttle begins. And then lets say that timing lines up well, and right as my second reaver pops out dragoon range finishes and I'm ready to roll out once more. I've made a minor adjustment based upon the success of this push and again, kept the focus in my mind on when that dragoon range upgrade was beginning. Further suppose that at this point I play made ten, fifteen, games and against every hydralisk/ling player, this push crushes them. I'm steamrolling zerg after zerg and I'm feeling much more confident in my play until I get to a player who is going two-base mutalisk instead of doing this zergling/hydralisk on opening. Against this sort of player I might find myself helpless against his mutalisks early on because I don't get dragoon range until right when these reavers finish so I might be having a huge difficulty dealing with mutalisk harass. It's important then to say, "Well, gee, maybe I should get dragoon range earlier." And then you plan it and try to get the timing aligned for when his mutalisks pop out. Having adjusted the dragoon range timing, I need to make sure my push hasn't been delayed too much because if I'm really good at holding off mutalisks players now I need to make sure that I don't equally suck against the hydraling players. What may be the case is that I find that I can get away with upgrading dragoon range early to hold off mutalisk players and my push has not been delayed so much that my push can't crush the hydraling players. Although this was an entirely theoretical exercise I think it is a completely reasonable exercise of how you would be adjusting play game after game. Note, I never stopped to say, "Is dragoon range good on Requiem?" I just began with the assumption that it was and tried to adjust the timing until I found one that worked just right for me.
As I mentioned earlier, what you'll sometimes find is that there are situations when you can delay dragoon range sometimes and will have to get it earlier some other times. All your logic will eventually condense down into a theorem that will allow you to precisely get dragoon range at just the right time every single game.
I've spent a long time talking about building triggers so now I want to talk about an abstract and very related concept called the imaginary player. This is the notion that, because you cannot see what your opposing player is doing through the fog of war you have to account for all possibilities of his play until you know exactly what he is doing. For instance, if I'm playing against a terran player and he went one-base fast gas and I can't get up his ramp to see what he's doing he could be going for a fast two-factory push, he could be going for a fast two-port wraith, he could be going for fast dropship, he could be going factory vulture harass to an expansion. I just don't know what he's doing yet. So I must assume that I'm playing against all of those possibilities, all of those imaginary players until I know precisely which one my opponent is. To many of you, I'm sure this sounds like I'm saying, "Be sure to account for these possibilites." but the notion of the imaginary player is in fact much, much deeper than that and it's critical for you to work out all sorts of timings and triggers to truely become a great player.
Once I have a build that I really like, that I think is solid, what I do is I get about five replays of that build against all the possible types of players I could play against. So, for example, lets go back to my zerg vs terran on gaia. Lets say I really like my lurker\hydralisk build. I'm going to make sure I've played this build style against fast expand, two barracks fast factory, fast gas and all the variations I mentioned earlier, against two rax fast expand, and against weird sorts of all ins and bunker rushes. I make sure I have replays against all of these variations. And that is when I figure out the timings for imaginary players. For example, I'll watch five replays of a terran who goes two rax into medic marine fast expand and I'll mentally line up all his timings with mine. I'll say something like, "Ok, I'll see his command center when my lair finishes." and I'll line up other things like say my evolution chamber generally finishes when his engineering bay starts or he makes his academy when my hatchery has this many hitpoints from being finished. All these sorts of little things. I can even doing things like "He makes this building when my food is at this much." I mean, every player is used to saying things like, "I make my overlord at eighteen." and I'm telling you that you should think things like "When I make my overlord at eighteen, that's when he makes his academy." and then I'll extend this further. I'll watch five replays against a player who went two port wraith and I'll get all those timings worked out: when his starports start and finish in relation to my lair. Against a two factory player I know exactly when that push leaves his base based upon what my food is. After hours of studying these replays I now have a complete mental picture of what all possible Terrans are doing based upon my play and the numbers I get from my build. When every game begins I'm always aware of all the things my imaginary terran opponents are doing and throughout the early parts of the game I'm constantly thinking to myself, "Which imaginary players can I cross off?".
Which brings me to an absolutely critical idea that all high level players abuse relentlessly, and that is what I call the non-trigger. The basic idea of a non-trigger is that if you know your opponents timings well enough, you know that if you see nothing at certain points in time you can cross imaginary players off your list. For example, suppose my terran opponent goes two rax and that's all I get to see. He could be going for a fast tank push, medic marine and early expand, or some sort of aggressive one base play. Those are the three imaginary players I have in my mind, and three imaginary players whose timings I know intimately. For example, if my player is early expanding I know exactly when I first see that command center and I can go "three, two, one," and if I see nothing I know immediately that he isn't fast expanding and I can begin preparing myself for a fast tank push and preparing myself to play against a one basing terran player.
This seemingly counter-intuitive idea is unbelievably powerful. That you always know exactly what your opponent is doing. That you can cross off all imaginary players until you have pin pointed exactly who your opponent is purely through key periods of nothing. Many players incorrectly assume certain situations in starcraft are rock, paper, scissors because they don't acknowledge the power of non-triggers. They'll watch two professional players play and neither of them will scout each other very much, and when they finally confront each other the first player will have an army that absolutely crushes the second player. Many amateurs will look at that and say that "Oh well, the first player just won because of his opening build." but the fact remains that the opening player is constantly adjusting his opening because he is seeing nothing from the second player at key periods of time. Never assume that starcraft is rock, paper, scissors. There is always a solution there. If you spend time practicing keeping track of all the imaginary players, focusing on what the non-triggers tell you, you will never be surprised in starcraft. I probably get surprised by what my opponent is doing once every thousand games because I'm always keeping track of all the possibilities in my head.
Well, that about wraps up my rant for today. Hopefully some of you found that useful. I really hope that you guys can incorporate the ideas of building triggers on only to generally improve your play but also to discover timings in the builds that you like. Because there is no point playing a game like starcraft if you're having someone elses fun. I also hope that you can incorporate the notion of the imaginary player into your play. Not just because it's obviously helpful and it will greatly bulster your confidence in game as you'll never be surprised but more importantly, I think that one of the most rewarding feelings I get in starcraft consistently is just knowing what my opponent is doing, and then when I rewatch the replay, I was right. That is just such a powerfully cool feeling to be able to go "I know he's making his academy here and his engineering bay here and his expansion should be finishing about now" and when you rewatch it you're just dead on the money, and that's just such a confidence booster that you're right on track. Hopefully you'll use the imaginary player logic to build your own clever non-triggers that will give you perhaps the greatest joy possible in starcraft - being accused of being a map hacker. That concludes my rant. This is Day[9], thank you very much for listening. Cheers.
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If anyone has others, post the links or copy/paste the transcripts in spoilers, and maybe Day[9] can eventually add them to the OP.
edit: changed title to more logical "defeating mech as zerg" per day[9]'s post below
edit2: maybe this would be better as a separate thread. Will make
On March 17 2009 14:28 thunk wrote: A lot of your talks have transcripts. I think it'd be great if you could spoiler the transcripts (and link to the original thread for the ones you have already done).
Thanks, I'll be sure to listen!
You should do a talk about guessing tech based on unit composition.
I tried looking for the transcripts (I Googled and everything), but I could only find these two:
On January 20 2009 11:14 qrs wrote: I'll start transcribing, in case anyone likes it in writing. I'll edit this post as I go; just posting now, so no one duplicates the effort. OK, left off at 8:40. If anyone feels like picking it up, feel free, otherwise maybe I'll get back to it sometime later. Edit: Thanks to tribal_warfare for transcribing the second (larger) part.
Hey everyone, this is Day[9], and I want to talk about a pretty advanced concept called Building Triggers and the Imaginary Player.
So I created the Gimme questions thread a while ago, asking about questions people had, just for me to rant on about, and a huge number of them were about builds, like, If he does this, how do I respond with this? or, When's a good timing push, what's a good build, on this matchup, on this map? And so, rather than going into specific advice and trying to answer those questions, I figure it would be really nice to give some general advice that you guys can apply in a wide variety of situations. And I mentioned two at the start: the first is what's called "Building Triggers" and the second is what's called "The Imaginary Player". So let's begin with
Building Triggers
The notion of a trigger is pretty straightforward in itself: that if A happens, you do B. And even though this is really a sort of simple idea, it has powerful, powerful applications for improving you play. So let's begin with some really simple examples that I know everyone is familiar with: As Protoss, when your shuttle is halfway done, you start building a Robotics Support Bay. That way, when your shuttle finishes, you'll be able to start the reaver right on time. Or, in another example, when your Spire is at 300 hitpoints, you stop making things at all of your hatcheries: that way, when the Spire finishes, you have three larvae ready to roll at each hatchery, and you can pump out a whole bunch of mutalisks.
Virtually everyone has experienced the two triggers that I just mentioned, because they crop up in almost every single game. Any time Zerg is going for a Spire, he's going to be obeying this sort of Law of Larva-Timing. But, in terms of other triggers, people seem to treat them as though they're this mystical knowledge, that there's this oracle that appears every hundred years and dishes out some sorts of timings or whatever. But the fact remains that any player can build his own triggers if he does so in a simple incremental fashion, which is exactly what I'm going to talk about, with a personal example of my own:
Let's talk about Zerg vs. Terran on Gaia, one of my absolute favorite matchups ever. Now, assuming that I'm not in vertical positions with my opponent, I love going hydralisk/lurker, because of the way that the middle of the map is kind of wide open but also kind of looks like a large path. Now, the problem that I have when I go hydralisk/lurk--or really that any hydralisk/lurk player has--is that if the Terran gets too many tanks, it becomes increasingly difficult to stop Terran pushes. If you have some number of medic/marine and 15 well-placed tanks, it's virtually impossible to break that with any number of hydralisk/lurkers. So, in the logic of constructing my build on this map, I knew there was a point where I needed to get Guardians, and the question is: when do I get Guardians.
At this point, a critical mistake that so, so, so many players make is to think that when late-game rolls around they can just feel it out: they'll be able somehow to "feel" when Terran has too many tanks and then they'll get the Hive. That logic does not work and you should avoid this at all costs. I mean, consider early-game: suppose I'm Protoss and I want to 2-gate rush a Zerg player: I never "feel it out". I never just say, "Well I can just wing this 2-gate rush." Instead what I do is get a precise, exact, optimized build, and follow that every single time I want to 2-gate rush a Zerg player and I make subtle adjustments based upon what the Zerg player is doing. There is no reason why you can't do this late-game. And that is exactly what I'm saying: that you want to have a precise plan of what to do late-game by creating your trigger and then you make subtle adjustments based upon what's going on. With that in mind, let's discuss how I came to answer the question, "When do I get Guardians in Zerg vs. Terran on Gaia?"
Step 1, and by far the most important step in building your own trigger: I chose a timing completely arbitrarily. I said to myself, "Let's get a Hive at 125 food: that's when I'm going to get my Queen's Nest and start teching up to Guardians." And I told myself I would play at least 10 games using this exact timing to see how it felt. In the actual games, I got crushed by tank pushes every single time: the Guardians were way late. So, great: now, all of a sudden, rather than trying to "feel my way" through the late-game, I instead established a hard decision with a very clear adjustment, which was: "Get the hive earlier." At this point, I backed off a little bit, and said, "Well, let me try doing it at 90 food." And when I did it at 90 food, the results were better--I was able to hold off the pushes a little bit more effectively in the late-game, but then, all of a sudden, I was losing in the middle-game: when the Terran's first push came out, I just didn't have enough hydra/lurk to kill it off. So immediately, I know that the trigger I'm looking for, the timing I'm looking for, is somewhere between 90 and 125 food, and I ended up settling at around 100 food as a decent time to start making the Queen's Nest and teching towards those Guardians.
An important note is that I didn't need to use food as a basis for establishing these triggers. I could have used any number of wacky things. I could have said, "I'll start making my Queen's Nest when my +1 attack upgrade is 75% done." Or I could have said, "Gee, let me start making my Queen's Nest when I get my gas done at my fourth base." I mean, anything you want to use as your trigger, totally go for it. Again, the most important concept in building your own trigger is first choosing a starting point and then incrementally adjusting that based upon your experiences in play. And the most important word there is "incrementally". By far the biggest mistake that you can make when establishing these sorts of triggers is to be too hasty in making your adjustments. That's why I said that I devoted 10 games to getting my Hive at 125 food. I devoted 10 games to getting my Hive at 90 food. Because I wanted to make sure that I wasn't making some sort of fluke in those games that would incorrectly make me adjust my play in a wrong direction.
There are two key aspects of this example I briefly want to touch on. The first is that this is a late-game situation. Many players feel really daunted by late-game scenarios, because it feels like there are so many variables and deviations, and there's a million ways you could have gotten there, and it seems like an intractable problem, trying to close down on a solid solution. But, as we saw in this example, I had a very simple question and there was a very simple process I followed. And, remember, if you just break it down into small enough chunks, there is no problem that is too hard for any player at any level to solve.
The second key point--and this is so, so, so important: if there is one thing you remember from this entire recording, let it be this--I never stopped to question whether my play was right or wrong. That is, I never said, "Should I be going Guardians?" I never stopped to do that; I never stopped to question whether I should be going hydralisk/lurker or anything like that. Rather, I said, "I am going hydralisk/lurker on this map, it feels like I need to go Guardians, when do I get those Guardians?" and I tried only to answer the question when. That is it. That is so important in the improvement of your play: to focus on a question and work on that. There are countless players in Starcraft who think the goal is to find "the right build". You see these players all the time: they're 2-gate rushing, you know, one week and then the next week they're going early-expand, Bisu-style, and then the next week they're just doing whatever the current trend in Proleague is. They keep changing and changing and changing. That is not your goal. Your goal in Starcraft is not to try to find "the right build"; rather, it is to find a build that you like that is based on solid logic, and then to adjust that build, and to work on it, and to incorporate newer, better triggers that make that build work. _________________________________________________________________________ finished by tribal_warfare _________________________________________________________________________ For example, one day I woke up and said "You know what, I'm tired of going mutalisk/zerling in zerg vs zerg. I want to go hydralisk." and I spent one season on PG tour just working on that build, making adjustments, trying to form new sets of logics, doing different openings until finally I had a solid build down. The following season I went 56-1 against zerg, I was playing an A+ level; and I say that not to brag but to point out that there was absolutely nothing special about my play. I simply started with some logic and then adjusted and adjusted and adjusted. I mean the one loss I had, was not to a phenomenal player at all. It was one of the first games I played that season. But he showed me that when I was doing my opening I needed to get twelve zerglings instead of ten. I had been relying on getting ten but it was just too little for his aggressive nine pool opening. And after that adjustment I could face nine pools in the future and hold that off. Again it was just these subtle adjustments.
I'd like to take the time now to answer a question I saw in the questions thread I created as well as to dicuss a conversation I had with Xeris about this very topic of building triggers, so I apologise in advance for potentially butchering your name but Oystein from Norway asked, "When you have taken expansions outside your natural in zerg vs terran do you ever make units from the expansions or do you stick strictly to drone?" I love this question because it has a clear motivation, it has an answer with some foundational logic and it can be turned into a question that can help develop a trigger to improve your play. So first of all, let me begin with the motivation. This totally was a question that came up in my experience as a Zerg player. You know, say the map is python and I take my main and my natural and then I take another main because I'm going for the standard sort of hive tech defiler play and what not. And I remember early on in my life time I would wonder when I had that expansion, should I just keep making drones? It seemed to make sense because I wanted to have my economy slowly getting better and better and the more drones the merrier right? Moreover, I could have a nydas canal linking my main and this expansion so I could have units in both places at once, and also when I take the natural as my forth base I can just transfer drones from that expansion on down. It seemed like I could keep making drones. At the same time I saw all sorts of benefits to making units from that expansion. If I'm making a lot of units at that expansion then I'll have a small little army that I can just move right down the ramp and I can use that to defend my newly building forth expansion. Also, if I'm occasionally making a defiler and some lurkers at that third base I can use those units to counter attack and a good example of this is GGplay vs Iris in the everstar league finals game five. So I saw benefits to both. That said, to answer your question Oystein, yes, there is a time you want to stop making drones from that expansion and begin making units and the logic to this is that you have all your hatcheries make the number of drones that you want to get to the level of economy you want and then that hatchery can join in unit production and that ends up being much more efficient then just slowly adding drones one at a time at that expansion. But what is so key about Oystein's question is that now we can ask ourselves, when do we stop making drones? What is the appropriate level of economy? And now we are just starting an exercise in building a new trigger that will help us improve our play. And again, what I love so much about Oystein's question is that it has a natural motivation, it can be stated as a simple problem and all we have to do is use some simple logic to reword that that as a trigger building exercise.
In another example I was talking to my friend Xeris on the phone about one base dragoon/reaver on Requiem. Because Requiem has really close starting positions, one base and its aggressive play is really great against Zerg because the zerg has to stay low econ in the early game. So if you can get a really good timing push in there with dragoon/reaver it's surprisingly difficult to stop. As I was discussing this build with Xeris he asked me, when do I get Dragoon range? I know I want to have range when I make my push but I'm not sure if I need to get it earlier, you know, to hold off some sort of hydra/ling bust at my front. And I think that is a perfectly worded question for a trigger building exercise. So lets just outline the process that we would use in that situation. It's now time to pretend that I am a budding, young protoss super star. That I have taken it upon myself to figure out precisely when to get dragoon range on Requiem.
Step one. I need to choose an arbitrary time to start getting dragoon range so I have some place to work with, so I have some benchmark for comparision. When I say arbitrary, it's important to note that I do not mean stupid. You should always use some sort of logic to make sure you have a reasonable starting point. So, in my eyes a reasonable starting point is to get dragoon range to finish right before I make that dragoon/reaver push. So I'll say to myself that I want dragoon range to finish right as my reaver finishes. All of a sudden I have a complete army with shuttle, reaver and a bunch of dragoons with range, so now is a good time to attack. So my arbitrary timing might be, start dragoon range right when my reaver starts. What I might discover after a game or two is that the reaver finishes much more quickly then range. At this point I might say to myself, "Ok, I need to back range up. I'm going to start getting range when my shuttle begins as opposed to when my reaver begins." and lets say that timing works perfectly. So now, right as my reaver pops out, my dragoon range finishes and I'm ready to roll out. Then suppose at this time I find that my push gets crushed over and over again. I think to myself, "Hmm, I need to get that second reaver before my attack." As a result, I no longer need to get dragoon range so early. Let me start getting dragoon range when my first reaver begins, as opposed to when my shuttle begins. And then lets say that timing lines up well, and right as my second reaver pops out dragoon range finishes and I'm ready to roll out once more. I've made a minor adjustment based upon the success of this push and again, kept the focus in my mind on when that dragoon range upgrade was beginning. Further suppose that at this point I play made ten, fifteen, games and against every hydralisk/ling player, this push crushes them. I'm steamrolling zerg after zerg and I'm feeling much more confident in my play until I get to a player who is going two-base mutalisk instead of doing this zergling/hydralisk on opening. Against this sort of player I might find myself helpless against his mutalisks early on because I don't get dragoon range until right when these reavers finish so I might be having a huge difficulty dealing with mutalisk harass. It's important then to say, "Well, gee, maybe I should get dragoon range earlier." And then you plan it and try to get the timing aligned for when his mutalisks pop out. Having adjusted the dragoon range timing, I need to make sure my push hasn't been delayed too much because if I'm really good at holding off mutalisks players now I need to make sure that I don't equally suck against the hydraling players. What may be the case is that I find that I can get away with upgrading dragoon range early to hold off mutalisk players and my push has not been delayed so much that my push can't crush the hydraling players. Although this was an entirely theoretical exercise I think it is a completely reasonable exercise of how you would be adjusting play game after game. Note, I never stopped to say, "Is dragoon range good on Requiem?" I just began with the assumption that it was and tried to adjust the timing until I found one that worked just right for me.
As I mentioned earlier, what you'll sometimes find is that there are situations when you can delay dragoon range sometimes and will have to get it earlier some other times. All your logic will eventually condense down into a theorem that will allow you to precisely get dragoon range at just the right time every single game.
I've spent a long time talking about building triggers so now I want to talk about an abstract and very related concept called the imaginary player. This is the notion that, because you cannot see what your opposing player is doing through the fog of war you have to account for all possibilities of his play until you know exactly what he is doing. For instance, if I'm playing against a terran player and he went one-base fast gas and I can't get up his ramp to see what he's doing he could be going for a fast two-factory push, he could be going for a fast two-port wraith, he could be going for fast dropship, he could be going factory vulture harass to an expansion. I just don't know what he's doing yet. So I must assume that I'm playing against all of those possibilities, all of those imaginary players until I know precisely which one my opponent is. To many of you, I'm sure this sounds like I'm saying, "Be sure to account for these possibilites." but the notion of the imaginary player is in fact much, much deeper than that and it's critical for you to work out all sorts of timings and triggers to truely become a great player.
Once I have a build that I really like, that I think is solid, what I do is I get about five replays of that build against all the possible types of players I could play against. So, for example, lets go back to my zerg vs terran on gaia. Lets say I really like my lurker\hydralisk build. I'm going to make sure I've played this build style against fast expand, two barracks fast factory, fast gas and all the variations I mentioned earlier, against two rax fast expand, and against weird sorts of all ins and bunker rushes. I make sure I have replays against all of these variations. And that is when I figure out the timings for imaginary players. For example, I'll watch five replays of a terran who goes two rax into medic marine fast expand and I'll mentally line up all his timings with mine. I'll say something like, "Ok, I'll see his command center when my lair finishes." and I'll line up other things like say my evolution chamber generally finishes when his engineering bay starts or he makes his academy when my hatchery has this many hitpoints from being finished. All these sorts of little things. I can even doing things like "He makes this building when my food is at this much." I mean, every player is used to saying things like, "I make my overlord at eighteen." and I'm telling you that you should think things like "When I make my overlord at eighteen, that's when he makes his academy." and then I'll extend this further. I'll watch five replays against a player who went two port wraith and I'll get all those timings worked out: when his starports start and finish in relation to my lair. Against a two factory player I know exactly when that push leaves his base based upon what my food is. After hours of studying these replays I now have a complete mental picture of what all possible Terrans are doing based upon my play and the numbers I get from my build. When every game begins I'm always aware of all the things my imaginary terran opponents are doing and throughout the early parts of the game I'm constantly thinking to myself, "Which imaginary players can I cross off?".
Which brings me to an absolutely critical idea that all high level players abuse relentlessly, and that is what I call the non-trigger. The basic idea of a non-trigger is that if you know your opponents timings well enough, you know that if you see nothing at certain points in time you can cross imaginary players off your list. For example, suppose my terran opponent goes two rax and that's all I get to see. He could be going for a fast tank push, medic marine and early expand, or some sort of aggressive one base play. Those are the three imaginary players I have in my mind, and three imaginary players whose timings I know intimately. For example, if my player is early expanding I know exactly when I first see that command center and I can go "three, two, one," and if I see nothing I know immediately that he isn't fast expanding and I can begin preparing myself for a fast tank push and preparing myself to play against a one basing terran player.
This seemingly counter-intuitive idea is unbelievably powerful. That you always know exactly what your opponent is doing. That you can cross off all imaginary players until you have pin pointed exactly who your opponent is purely through key periods of nothing. Many players incorrectly assume certain situations in starcraft are rock, paper, scissors because they don't acknowledge the power of non-triggers. They'll watch two professional players play and neither of them will scout each other very much, and when they finally confront each other the first player will have an army that absolutely crushes the second player. Many amateurs will look at that and say that "Oh well, the first player just won because of his opening build." but the fact remains that the opening player is constantly adjusting his opening because he is seeing nothing from the second player at key periods of time. Never assume that starcraft is rock, paper, scissors. There is always a solution there. If you spend time practicing keeping track of all the imaginary players, focusing on what the non-triggers tell you, you will never be surprised in starcraft. I probably get surprised by what my opponent is doing once every thousand games because I'm always keeping track of all the possibilities in my head.
Well, that about wraps up my rant for today. Hopefully some of you found that useful. I really hope that you guys can incorporate the ideas of building triggers on only to generally improve your play but also to discover timings in the builds that you like. Because there is no point playing a game like starcraft if you're having someone elses fun. I also hope that you can incorporate the notion of the imaginary player into your play. Not just because it's obviously helpful and it will greatly bulster your confidence in game as you'll never be surprised but more importantly, I think that one of the most rewarding feelings I get in starcraft consistently is just knowing what my opponent is doing, and then when I rewatch the replay, I was right. That is just such a powerfully cool feeling to be able to go "I know he's making his academy here and his engineering bay here and his expansion should be finishing about now" and when you rewatch it you're just dead on the money, and that's just such a confidence booster that you're right on track. Hopefully you'll use the imaginary player logic to build your own clever non-triggers that will give you perhaps the greatest joy possible in starcraft - being accused of being a map hacker. That concludes my rant. This is Day[9], thank you very much for listening. Cheers.
On January 07 2009 09:15 motbob wrote: Well, I'll get started transcribing it.
Hey everyone! This is Day[9], and I'm going to talk a little bit about defeating a Terran mech as a zerg player. So ever since Fantasy did his cute mech shit against GGplay, all anyone wants to do is mech. And that's fine; mech's cool; it's the current trend of the moment; it was never weak or strong. It's just an alternative type of play.
But the problem is that when I read the strategy forum or even watch the professionals play, I want to vomit. I feel like so much of the advice and the current ideas of how to play against mech is just totally wrong. Now, I'm a little unusual in that I've been around forever. I've been playing competitively for 10 years. There was a period way back when when mech was just as popular as it is now. That gave me the opportunity to spend a lot of time practicing against and thinking about the dynamics of mech play. So I want to share a little bit with you guys about my experience against mech and what I feel is the correct way to think about and counteract a good Terran mech player.
So first, let's talk about the strengths and weaknesses of a mech build, then let's analyse what's wrong with current thought and play, and then I'll give some more concrete tips at the end and even a loose build that you guys can play around with.
So, let's dive right in and talk about the three major strengths and weaknesses of mech, in my opinion. Number 1: mech is good with big, one-punch-style pushes. Number two: mech is great at holding territory and playing defensively. Number three: mech is great at fucking with the Zerg early game.
Let's go ahead and talk about those three concepts in depth. First, I'll talk about this one-punch style army concept that I mentioned. This idea is that in small numbers, Zerg has an advantage over a mech army. In medium sized armies they're fairly even. But once you start talking about big, large armies, the mech army is way better than whatever Zerg can throw at it. So, the way this manifests itself in games is that Terrans will much often favor a timing push that is significantly later in the game, because early-game pushes are just so dangerous. In fact, it's often a bad idea to be very aggressive early on as a meching Terran player.
Number two: holding territory and playing defensively. With seige tanks and mines and goliaths, you can set yourself up and plant yourself and be almost inpenatrable. Two great examples of this are Mind vs s2 on the Dec. 15th proleague,
Flash just had so much stuff that when Savior attacked with infinity Ultralisks, they evaporated immediately and Flash was just sitting there pumping his fist like a 15 year old.
The third thing is that mech is very good at screwing with the zerg early on. This is because they don't need that barracks, so they can do things like proxy barracks openings that don't really screw with the later stages of their mech build, and because vultures are so fucking obnoxious. They plant mines and dart around and kill drones, and whatnot.
So yeah, that is what a mech army is good at, and I'll constantly be coming back and referring to these things throughout this rant...thing. Now let's talk about what mech is bad at.
In order, the three weaknesses that mech has (in my opinion) are thus: one, mech has a huge problem with mobility; two, mech is not very good with applying pressure throughout the game; three, mech play has a weak mid-game (sort of an extension of the first two weaknesses). I'll talk about those in depth.
About mobility. Terran players often need to plant mines, but even if the Terran player isn't making many vultures, his tanks need to be seiged to maximize damage. So it's very difficult for a meched Terran to dart this way and that in the fashion that MnM does. And again (this is sort of an extention of the big push notion) the Terran can't really do these ninja-like things where it breaks its army into small pieces and splits up, because in small numbers, zerg is better against small groups of mech. So, Terran players suffer from a huge lack of mobility.
The second thing is the applying of pressure. Same thing: the Terran cannot break his army up and do dicotymous things, so the way mech players win is by doing huge pushes. Yeah, there's vulture harass in the mig-game, but I'll talk abouthow to negate that in a moment.
The third thing is the meched Terran's weak mid-game. That is the point in time when a Zerg player really needs to attack. The Terran player must play defensively in the midgame, because it can't push, and if it does vulture harass, it gets completely crushed by hydras. This is the point where Zerg can take a lot of expansions and win economically.
So, to recap, a meching Terran is very slow, but extremely strong. So the Zerg player cannot win by being cute. The Zerg player can't win with three lurkers and a dark swarm and feel clever. The Zerg player needs to win by having a lot of shit. And the way the Zerg does that is by creating a powerful economy by exploiting the Terran's midgame immobility.
Now, before I talk about good ways to deal with mech, I have to point out what is so bad about current theory and practice against mech. I can sum it up with the following: people play against mech the same way as they play against a MnM Terran. You just can't so that. For some reason, people think that you play a certain way against Terran, and it doesn't matter what Terran does. But against a meching Terran, you should treat it as a totally different matchup.
So let me list some things that are bad that you should not do. And yeah, there are obvious exceptions but on the whole, you should not do the following things.
-Don't go for a really fast mutalisk harass. I see a lot of players think they're really clever, getting their 3hatch, their spire, and going to kill a lot of SCVs, but the problem is that that doesn't work against goliaths. Against MnM it's great because the MnM sometimes gets isolated from each other and you can pick some off, and the SCVs can be taken out because the range upgrade is delayed blah blah blah... but goliaths have like infinite range and deal a fuckton of damage against air, so when you run in feeling so fucking clever, you leave with a bunch of dead mutalisks and the rest are red health. And that effectively gives you no advantage. It is very difficult to abuse a meching Terran with really aggressive harass. I mean, if you can pick off an SCV, do it, but don't make the cornerstone of your gameplay about getting an advantage with fast harassment because it will not happen.
-Do not rely on lurkers against a meching Terran. Against MnM, lurkers make perfect sense. Six lurkers can kill off like infinity MnM. I mean, you only need two lurkers to defend an entire expansion against Terran in the midgame. And again, a major purpose of lurkers is getting a little bit of map control in the midgame, because he doesn't have mobile detection. Meching players are already immobile in the midgame. They're not trying to attack in the midgame. They're going to wait until the later stages of the game where not only will they have detection, but they'll have an army that will completely kill the shit out of your lurkers. They'll have tanks and goliaths, which take many hits from lurkers and have very long range. So the fact that the lurker attack stacks is completely meaningless. In fact, if you do the math, you'll find that lurkers are extremely cost-ineffective at killing tanks, when compared to zerglings etc.
-Do not rely on defilers to beat a mech player. Now, this argument is a little tricky, but it's absolutely crucial that you understand this, or else your play against meched Terran will be crippled. Let's think about defilers against MnM. Defilers make perfect sense, because your lurkers that were oh-so-good in the midgame are now in serious danger from vessels and tanks. But hey, don't worry, you can throw down some dark swarms, and now you're totally safe against the MnM army. Now, against mech, it's not that defilers are bad, it's that defilers are significantly worse against mech when compared to MnM. Picture yourself getting ready to attack a mech army. It's spread out with tanks. The units are physically big, so even when they're as clustered as they can be, they're still fairly spread out. When the Terran has all his tanks seiged, and occasionally he'll have mines there too, your army will be eaten alive by the tanks, even in dark swarm, by the splash damage. You're dealing with 15-25 tanks against mech. You're not dealing with the 3-5 tanks you usually see against MnM. So, you just need to have a lot of units. You can't rely on the dark swarm. It is good, it might be the thing that tips the balance in your favor in a big battle, but you can't lock yourself into that mindset of "OK, I have my Hive, I need to get my defilers so that I can stay alive." That's the mindset that you have against a MnM player, not the mindset that you should have against a meching Terran player.
-Don't build Ultralisks. Ultralisks are great against MnM because the Ultra armor is so high that MnM shots barely do anything. The problem is against mech, it is the exact opposite. Ultralisks maximize the damage that a tank does. When a tank fires at a zergling, it can do at most 35 damage, because a zergling has 35 life. Against an Ultra, the tank does the full 70 damage, not including upgrades. When you throw splash damage and mines in there, Ultras get EATEN A-L-LIVE by a mech army. For an example, watch the second Youtube video. You will laugh at how many Ultralisks Savior lost at the end of that game. Now I actually did a calculation on this, about Ultraling against mech. It's shocking how ineffective Ultraling is against mech in terms of damage taken vs damage dealt. A much better spending of your money is on simple ground units, like zerglings and hydralisks. Those are going to be the core of your army, because again, against mech, you're not trying to make a "cute" army, with defilers and lurkers and Ultralisks. You just want an army that is a lot of shit.
to be continued...
On January 07 2009 11:31 qrs wrote: Nice. I'll continue it for a bit:
And part of the reason, I think, that ultralisk/zergling is so popular is that players will develop an enormous economic advantage in the midgame--correctly so--and at that point, it hardly matters what the Zerg does in terms of unit combination. Ultralisk/ling just happens to be what the player does to win, so he incorrectly learns that ultralisk/ling is the proper counter, when it is in fact not. Again, all of what I've been talking about: this whole medic/marine mindset: it's all just ways of saying that the Zerg is not taking advantage of the fundamental weakness of a meching player, and that is the midgame immobility. A Zerg player needs to establish an extremely strong economy then, and then crush the Terran in the later stages of the game, when Terran is trying to do that big one-punch push.
OK, great. Now that I've said all that stuff, I want to give a few general tips of how to deal with a meching player, and then I'll finish things up with a build that I've done that's extremely effective, and you guys can play around with it and do whatever. It's just a good solid base:
First thing: Hydralisk/ling should be the bulk of your ground army. That minimizes the amount of damage that your army is taking as well as maximizing the damage-output that your army is doing.
In addition to that, you need to continue to make a lot of mutalisks all game long, as just an important part of your army. It's not going to be a big component of harassment; it's just really key to ensure that the Terran player is continuing to make lots of goliaths, and plus, when you expand (as much as you end up doing against mech), you can build up a very large mutalisk army anyways: you'll have like two control-groups of mutalisks in addition to your big ground army, and that is really what you want to be looking for.
Now, in terms of transitioning, when you get that hive-tech up, an excellent method for busting a stationary push, or just, you know, a Terran line that's just sitting defensively and holding a whole bunch of expansions: a great way to bust that, when you get the hive-tech, is to get guardians. You can get 15-20 guardians without much difficulty, because, again, you're delaying your hive-tech by opting to expand much more in the midgame, so by the time you get hive, you have a really strong economy and a ton of mutalisks already. And that is what's going to really help you bust that push, because they have equal range to goliaths, and they can break the tank lines really well for your ground army.
In terms of defilers: Defilers should really be the latest evolution of your play, it should be the last thing you transition to and incorporate into your army, because, again, just having the units is the most important thing, and having the expansions. Once you get a defiler, it will always help your army some, but you want to make sure that that army is substantial enough.
And, in terms of ultralisks, you've already heard my thoughts on that: I wouldn't recommend playing with it unless you're really comfortable with your play, because frankly ultralisks are very difficult and technical to use, in that matchup.
And finally, the most important tip that I can give against a meching player is that minerals are more important than gas. When you get an expansion, don't make that first drone--make a geyser (sic). The bulk of your army is going to be zerglings and hydralisks and mutalisks, and you're going to want to be expanding lots and lots. Gas is not important as any of those, and minerals are critical. What's also great about the fact that minerals are the key resource that you need: it opens up the potential for taking a lot of mineral naturals that a lot of players just seem not to have been considering against a mech player. So, yes, again: minerals are the key resource.
So let me finish things up with a really strong build-order that's brought me a huge amount of success through the years. I don't know if people think about builds the same way I do, so hopefully I make sense....But on the same note, I'm trying to make a video series about how to construct a build from scratch, and please keep pressuring me to work on that, 'cause i need motivation.
So yeah, here's my build: So, as a Zerg player, you 12-hatch at your expansion, you open completely normally, and your basic opening is just the 3-hatch opening.
Now, if your opponent bunker-rushes, you just need to be able to deal with that. You should also be checking up on your Terran, because there's three basic things that a terran can do early on: Going 2 barracks, early expanding, and then getting fast gas. You need to find out pretty early on if he's going fast gas, because that's where the deviation occurs. You start off with the 3-hatch, because if he's going medic/marine you deal with that accordingly, and if you see him going mech, you veer off into the build that I'm going to say right now.
So if he's going a fast gas, the things that we need to worry about are:
some sort of gentle early harass, with vultures, like a hidden 1-factory
or there's 2-factory aggressive play
or there's 2-port wraith
Those are the three big things: 1-factory, 2-factory, or 2-port wraith.
This is the build I recommend: You gas on 18 (and you have 3 hatches at this point). You gas on 18, making overlords at the appropriate times. With your first 50 gas you get a hydralisk den, before your lair. And then you get speed for hydralisks, before your lair. And you're going to be making between 6 and 10 hydralisks. And you're also going to be getting your second gas at an appropriate time: not too fast, but when you fiddle with this build you'll feel about when it feels right.
And also, have your overlords clustered in your base, in a way that your hydralisks are ready to defend against 2-port wraith, but also so that those overlords are ready to start wandering out into the middle of the map, because you need them as spotters against mines.
OK, great. The reason this build is doing so well for us right now is we have negated those three big things (the 1-factory harass, 2-factory harass, and the 2-port wraith), and for everything else Terran does, we're still OK. "Anything else Terran does" is like a fast dropship, or some sort of fast-academy build, and when we have speed-hydralisks we can still deal with that, because they don't have tons of medic/marine. In other words, we're not dead yet. There's nothing that we're facing that has killed us or has some sort of huge advantage.
I'm not going to talk about how to deal with 2-port wraith, because, again, the focus of this is dealing with mech. I'm just saying those initial variations to let you know that you are still OK against those things with this opening.
Now, at this point, you'll be fairly certain that your opponent is doing some type of mech build: he's planted mines in the middle of the map, say, you've--I mean, if he went 2-factory aggressive, you see a lot of mech units, and at this point, Terran is focusing on trying to get that expansion up.
As a sample map, let's say we're playing on Destination and we are at the north position. We have those overlords at our natural, ready to slide to the right expansion and ready to slide out our front ramps to spot those mines. Now, in this build, we've made 6-8 hydralisks. We have speed. Do not get range with the next 150 gas. Get a lair, and start planning on expanding. Your whole goal for the midgame is to have 4 or 5 hydras move out to an expansion and just sit to defend, you'll have another 4 or 5 hydralisks at your front and in your main, to just sit and defend, and then you're going to start expanding while getting mutalisks at the same time, and--and this is really key--and sending overlords to locations where you want to expand, because you need to clear out those mines.
Now, when that lair finishes, we're going to be going for a spire, and at this point, you're wondering: we're going for a spire and we have like 8-10 hydralisks, or whatever: what do we do with the rest of our larvae? Well you're powering drones like crazy. Because you're not worried about an early Terran push: he can't really push aggressively early on. So you're making tons of drones, you're taking one expansion at the right that's defended by those hydralisks, and you're on your way to getting mutalisks.
When those mutalisks pop out, they're great because they force the Terran to delay his push a little bit, which extends the Zerg's midgame advantage. Those mutalisks pop out, the Terran has to stop making tanks, stop making vultures, and begin pumping out goliaths. Now, you don't want to do aggressive harass, but you want to be in his face just enough to let him know that you have a lot of mutalisks. You only need to make like 9-12 at this point, and at this point you can start expanding to the top-right natural and the left natural, and you've already been making a whole ton drones and expanding a lot, and you can begin throwing down more hatcheries and some evolution chambers. And at this point you just start making tons of zerglings and hydralisks, favoring hydralisks, initially: don't start making a lot of zerglings early on, because that's a little weak. You want to start with a lot of hydralisks, and then you can add on zerglings and hatcheries at the same time.
And what ends up happening is, as the midgame progresses, he's forced to delay his push, and when he does come out, you have an absurd number of expansions: you have your main, your nat, the right natural, the left natural, and the top-right corner. And you can back-upgrade: you can get the hydralisk range, the metabolic boost for zerglings, and overlord sight-range, if you want, and just begin spreading around the map, and you will be surprised at how easy it is to have total map-control and a raging economy--and you still have a lair.
You can start teching towards that queen's nest after a little bit, but again, the emphasis of your play is going to be adding hatcheries, both as production units and at expansions, and then, for the rest of the game, you'll just have this amazing advantage.
Now, against a really good player, it's going to be difficult to make that advantage very large, so I do need to talk a little bit about later-game transitioning. As you get your hive up, it's a great idea to get guardians, but really the most important upgrade for hive is the adrenal boost for the zerglings, 'cause now you have a bunch of cracklings that are really cheap, in absurd numbers, against lots of tanks, lots of goliaths (because you've still been making those mutalisks), and a handful of vultures. (The mutalisks actually help to cut down on the vulture count tremendously, so that's really great.)
So yeah, and the rest of the game is fairly straightforward. If you're having a lot of trouble in the later stages of the game, it's a good sign that you did something wrong in the midgame, or that you're going ultralisk/zergling, which I told you not to do .
So, yeah...I hope that this rambling was useful to some people because I would have made a post, but I don't like writing as much as I like hearing myself talk . So, yeah....Merry Christmas, Team Liquid. Cheers!
THE END Edit: haha, crossposted with motbob: while I was typing all this, he was editing his post with the exact same thing. When he gets to where I stopped, he asks for someone to take over. Ah well, I'll type the rest now...
done
If anyone has others, post the links or copy/paste the transcripts in spoilers, and maybe Day[9] can eventually add them to the OP.
you should change it to "defeating mech as zerg" since i'm making a podcast about playing mech well
Day[9] we should lock you up somewhere and pay you slightly above minimum wage to churn these out until the stuff you come up with starts to talk about the good and bad karma you receive from killing certain critters on certain maps.
I wish there was a Day[9] podcast for every SC question I could possibly have These are great! Thanks man!
Am I 'wrongly avoiding' because I go 3 hatch spire -> 5 hatch lurkerling? My Hydralisk micro is weak and I'm way more confident with lurkers, but no one does it and I get told to go Hydras all the time :p
On August 16 2009 23:22 Revabug wrote: Am I 'wrongly avoiding' because I go 3 hatch spire -> 5 hatch lurkerling? My Hydralisk micro is weak and I'm way more confident with lurkers, but no one does it and I get told to go Hydras all the time :p
The problem of course is that first of all, your lurkers are too late like that to stop any of the timing pushes and you need to get a den after like 4th hatchery and have worse economy. Second, it's pretty much a lot more defensive and lets P take their third almost uncontested, and it only works well against ground type of play. Mass corsairs get very troublesome and you'll end up having to switch to Hydras anyway, especially against something like Sair reaver. It works fine if the opponent is going for a normal ground-heavy build and you can tech quickly to defilers and ultras, but it's far less adaptable.
I'm confused, most of what you said is the complete opposite! I often go 3 hatch spire, 2 hatches, den, 2nd gas, evo
Except a no stargate +1 Zealot rush (which you respond with Mutalisks) Lurkers first holds off almost all builds like 4 Gate 2 Archon push.
It's also quite effective if the P takes their third fast - if you watch some recent ZvP with Effort or Jaedong, they completely destroy the Protosses that take their third quickly. There's a pretty big timing where P won't have obs and you can do some damage, by denying their third or even setting a contain and sniping the forge/gateway. Especially when it looks no different from 5 Hatch Hydra.
Yes, vs mass corsair it agreeably loses but you'll see if he's consistently pumping scourge with your scouting scourge anyway so it's not hard to start massing up speed hydras in response.
The real problem I have is coordinating attacks; with so many lings it's hard to get a good flank with all your units attacking. Though this is due to mechanics which can be improved I'm asking is if I should be choosing Hydras over Lurkers simply because it's to coordinate and is used more commonly, or should I persist with the 'weaker' strategy
On August 17 2009 00:12 Revabug wrote: I'm confused, most of what you said is the complete opposite! I often go 3 hatch spire, 2 hatches, den, 2nd gas, evo
Except a no stargate +1 Zealot rush (which you respond with Mutalisks) Lurkers first holds off almost all builds like 4 Gate 2 Archon push.
It's also quite effective if the P takes their third fast - if you watch some recent ZvP with Effort or Jaedong, they completely destroy the Protosses that take their third quickly. There's a pretty big timing where P won't have obs and you can do some damage, by denying their third or even setting a contain and sniping the forge/gateway. Especially when it looks no different from 5 Hatch Hydra.
Yes, vs mass corsair it agreeably loses but you'll see if he's consistently pumping scourge with your scouting scourge anyway so it's not hard to start massing up speed hydras in response.
The real problem I have is coordinating attacks; with so many lings it's hard to get a good flank with all your units attacking. Though this is due to mechanics which can be improved I'm asking is if I should be choosing Hydras over Lurkers simply because it's to coordinate and is used more commonly, or should I persist with the 'weaker' strategy
Progamers open 3 hatch spire 5 hatch lurker a lot. They mostly do it on heartbreak ridge but sometimes on other maps as well. A lot of the time they transition into hydralurker afterwards though, which is my build of choice atm. Just make sure to constantly scout with your first scourges; if they continue pumping sairs after their first you will need a spore at your 3rd/nat.
Continueing into lurkerling is viable too. But usually going lurkling requires some turtling with a rather fast hive with a well timed expo to a 4th to survive into the late game, which never really fit my playstyle. And if you do attempt to move out before swarm you can very easily throw the game away if you don't get a lurkling flank just right, which is the main reason I don't do it much anymore. It is a pretty unpopular popular strategy, but not really "weaker". Hydralurker is probably a more solid strat to learn, unless you always play on very large maps.
In the latest episode, though, you talk about sidestepping. It's all sound and true, but I dunno if that's the best way to put it. You call it avoiding the strengths of your opponents build, but aren't you really just punishing an opponent for concentrating his forces too much? Like Tsunami said, If my opponent builds many turrets, that in itself if a victory (esp. if you didn't make many muta/any at all). You make your opponent waste money defending from attacks you won't make, or waste money making an attack you can easily thwart/sacrifice. In the end, it all means the same, but I like to think its much easier to value it if you think of it as punishing your opponent, rather than avoiding his strength. Like Sun Tzu said, if your opponent defends only his front, attack his rear. IE: Attack him where he's weak, not where he's strong, even if we're talking in terms of early game/mid game/late game timing.
Still, it's a good shake to anyone who is playing mindlessly in their own head and not really thinking about what their opponent is trying to do. Lots of players get stuck for a long time before they realise they're not the only player in the game.
Another awesome podcast. Keep up the good work, as these have helped me tremendously at understanding everything that is happening in the game. Specifically your last podcast (just this recent one). I always looked at what I did wrong, and what I could have did to make my strategy work, but never gave thought as to if my strategy was the wrong approach to start with. When I lose I am going back asking, "okay, what was the weakest part of his play? Did I attempt to abuse it?".
On August 17 2009 13:26 BarneyEX wrote: Day[9], can you try making a podcast on Terran build orders.Most of your podcast focuses solely on zerg play. Keep up the good work though.
On August 19 2009 07:37 vaderseven wrote: I really look forward to this podcast that you mention as future material : ZvT basics: 2 hatch vs 3 hatch
Yeah, when is that going to happen. Been there since u started this. Would be super awsome if u did it Day :D
I have my notes written for that, but I'm going to delay it since I have 2 zerg centric casts and no terran ones. I'm going to add a terran or two and then a protoss one and THEN the 2hatch vs 3hatch one. Hooray endless topics to blab about
On August 19 2009 07:37 vaderseven wrote: I really look forward to this podcast that you mention as future material : ZvT basics: 2 hatch vs 3 hatch
Yeah, when is that going to happen. Been there since u started this. Would be super awsome if u did it Day :D
I have my notes written for that, but I'm going to delay it since I have 2 zerg centric casts and no terran ones. I'm going to add a terran or two and then a protoss one and THEN the 2hatch vs 3hatch one. Hooray endless topics to blab about
I thought u were a zerg? Why help our enemies? They have stylish and otherstuff. We need more zerg power!
@Dat[9]: in your goon reaver push, you dont mention hydra openings and as Zerg player myself i generally always counter one base by trying to go for a fast group of range hydra (8~12) of 2 or 3 hatch to harass the ramp with the help of ovis to give higher ground sight. this is because it counters corsairs and contains while i go lurk - > take 3rd. if i thought this push might be coming (no templar, many goons after corsair) would it be better to go hydra -> spire - > hydra/muta (kinda like a mini version of the 5 hatch standard) or "pretend" contain to force cannons and just expand, outmass?
Damn that very good information (from the sidestepping podcast), however I can't help but feel that many players (including myself I admit) see cheese (or rather trying to end the game early as an easy and successful way to win games. I agree that it is better to plan for the longer game, but it doesn't change the fact that sometimes well executed timing rushes are incredibly difficult to stop (or rather side step). My point is that simply knowing the counter is sometimes not enough.
On August 25 2009 11:34 YPang wrote: lol in the beginning of the mindset one, the mass gamer sounds like racenilitr XD
actualy it sounds like the total opposite of him..
anyway, I figured out most of the things in EP 13 on my own gradually, when it hit me yesterday. Now I just got confirmation from one of the smartest guys around.
Make more plz! Also, if you can, id really like you to do the "evolution of a player." I just want to see what your thoughts on that are.
hey Day[9] how about "physical sidestepping" As in if my army cannot beat his army, I should backstab? I am doing it ALOT lately because sometimes ZvT there's no way in hell for me to kill his army straight so I thought lol might as well rape his natural instead of wasting my army. That about the right idea yeah?
On August 25 2009 19:37 evanthebouncy! wrote: hey Day[9] how about "physical sidestepping" As in if my army cannot beat his army, I should backstab? I am doing it ALOT lately because sometimes ZvT there's no way in hell for me to kill his army straight so I thought lol might as well rape his natural instead of wasting my army. That about the right idea yeah?
the timing of appropriate counter attacking is REALLY difficult to consistently get right. sounds like i have another topic to podcast on! :D
I really liked the last podcast for some reason Day[9] especially the last point you made about paying attention to your mental states. I know that I personally am really bad about staying in "the zone." I've been able to improve mostly through mechanical skill (I can get C- but can't really win games there at this point) but it's really easy for me to get thrown off.
Like last night on Destination. Oh my god--what is up with Terrans? They have a perfectly reasonable game they can play but everyone just seems to do vulture runbys lately. (This literally happened 4 out of 5 ZvTs I played last night). Anyway the vultures come in... I micro drones and Hydras as best I can but my game just falls apart after that. The 4-5 speed vulture runbys are especially bad. They are like impossible to stop completely and always get a good chunk of my drones.
Anyway, I notice that games where I get badly tilted or get too far ahead or behind (basically out of the zone) has a point where my APM level drops dramatically. It's sometimes good to go back in BWChart and figure out exactly when I stopped multitasking and then figure out what was going on in the game at that point.
I would be curious as to how you go about modifying your play style. I find it incredibly hard to modify my play by saying things like "I will not forget to build an OL on 24 this game" or "I will switch from drones to Hydras at 40" before hand. I would love to be able to be like "ok... the next time I get 2ported unexpectedly I will build Overlords and drones correctly while microing my Hydras" or "I will remain not panic and stall for defilers when the vessel/tank/mm push comes out" but that seems several orders of magnitude harder then the first two examples lol How do you actually enforce this in a real game?
The only way I get comfortable enough with this stuff is just to have it happen to me enough times that it isn't quite so unexpected. If I try to actively prime or pep-talk myself it doesn't work at all. Just suddenly one game I am less panicked...
I've been trying to LurkerLing in ZvP a lot but I've always lacked confidence simply thinking that it's 'inferior' to 5 Hatch Hydra, especially when barely anyone uses it. This'll help I guess, thanks!
In your latest podcast about having a good mindset, you seem to imply that you should not adapt to the opponents build, and instead create a pre-made build, based on your logic, trials/error, etc. This very much goes against how I have practiced up to this point, in which I try to find out what my opponent is doing and adapt to it. Have I been doing it the wrong way this whole time?
On August 26 2009 12:23 alphafuzard wrote: In your latest podcast about having a good mindset, you seem to imply that you should not adapt to the opponents build, and instead create a pre-made build, based on your logic, trials/error, etc. This very much goes against how I have practiced up to this point, in which I try to find out what my opponent is doing and adapt to it. Have I been doing it the wrong way this whole time?
There's a subtle difference. Obviously you're probably going to get killed if you don't respond at all to your opponent, but what he's suggesting is that you should be focusing mainly on your game plan rather than being caught up in knowing what your opponent is doing, and trying desperately to alter your game plan entirely to deal with what you see.
With no strong focus, you'll find that although you may be able to dodge what your opponent throws at you, you won't be very strong at anything at all, and will likely create redundancies or end up with ineffective units. You'll find yourself losing more games than you would if you had a plan that tried to focus on a particular strength while being able to deflect your opponents moves with minimal commitment.
How do you deal with rushes of adrenaline? Every time I get one my mouse/keyboard accuracy and apm go to shit. Is there a way to try and avoid them from happening in the first place?
<3 But I got a question about replays. Rewatching replays of game that I've lost, what should I be looking for and what questions should I be asking myself. I mean I can watch it and say oh he had better macro/oh he had higher apm so i lost so he had more units and I had less. I don't think that's a correct way to look at it, but what else should I be paying attention to and how should my thought process work when reviewing games that I've lost/won
Could you please do a detailed (this is like asking jeadong to keep his apm up) cast on the topic of control. Control is a broad but somehow focused topic that is crucial to one's game.
The idea of control is also the next logical building block to look at after your casts on timings, build order construction, building triggers, winning with advantage, and having a good mindset.
You have talked about pre-game planing and how to lay out the mechanical actions of a build order that will help you enact your plan without just falling apart.
What prompted this request was a question I almost asked (but instead did the above request). That question was going to be, "In Zerg vs Protoss on destination, assuming a 3 base spire into 5 hatch hydra Zerg vs fast expanding Protoss, a game will often become very extended between two players of similar skill. As the mid game ends and the late game really takes form, the idea of controlling one's army takes on a whole new perspective. With that in mind, what should a player strive for once his game plan has been enacted but, instead of either defeat or victory, the game continues on at an even level?
On August 27 2009 01:33 Afasia wrote: Usually put one as a bedstime story.
I do the exact same thing! Nothing puts me to sleep faster.. and I mean that as respectfully as possible T_T
Yes! I am not the only one. I put on one of these podcasts and my sleep is just blissful.
Obviously I've also listened to them while not trying to sleep, so I'm not implying they 're not useful, quit the opposite since they 've taught me many useful things and I love em. Tx!
Tbh after listening to the last podcast I'm sort of confused - it kind of implies that a weaker (I'm guessing D+/C-) player should focus on having a plan and watching the replay to perfect adjust his strategy/gameplan, rather than focus on mechanics..
But I've read countless times it's far superior to focus on mechanics first to avoid drilling in bad habits, and I'm sort of inclined to agree because if you have bad mechanics analyzing your play mightn't work so well: you may think you for example lost a battle due to bad unit composition when it was just your micro or macro that was lacking..
Or maybe this podcast was with the assumption your mechanics are already good? I dunno, be interesting to hear your thoughts and which direction to take :D
On August 28 2009 09:50 Revabug wrote: Tbh after listening to the last podcast I'm sort of confused - it kind of implies that a weaker (I'm guessing D+/C-) player should focus on having a plan and watching the replay to perfect adjust his strategy/gameplan, rather than focus on mechanics..
But I've read countless times it's far superior to focus on mechanics first to avoid drilling in bad habits, and I'm sort of inclined to agree because if you have bad mechanics analyzing your play mightn't work so well: you may think you for example lost a battle due to bad unit composition when it was just your micro or macro that was lacking..
Or maybe this podcast was with the assumption your mechanics are already good? I dunno, be interesting to hear your thoughts and which direction to take :D
Let's say you're a Terran mass gaming on Shades of Twilight against Protoss and your strategy is to be like Iris and 2fac every game. When you look at reps, it should be clear, with a little bit of analysis, whether you lost because of bad micro/macro or because 2fac-ing every game is a bad idea. If you can't tell, you should discuss the rep with others to build the skill of being able to analyze your replays. I guess what I'm trying to say is that looking back at you play and making good changes to your strategy as they are warranted is a skill that you have to train, just like everything else in Starcraft.
On August 28 2009 09:50 Revabug wrote: Tbh after listening to the last podcast I'm sort of confused - it kind of implies that a weaker (I'm guessing D+/C-) player should focus on having a plan and watching the replay to perfect adjust his strategy/gameplan, rather than focus on mechanics..
But I've read countless times it's far superior to focus on mechanics first to avoid drilling in bad habits, and I'm sort of inclined to agree because if you have bad mechanics analyzing your play mightn't work so well: you may think you for example lost a battle due to bad unit composition when it was just your micro or macro that was lacking..
Or maybe this podcast was with the assumption your mechanics are already good? I dunno, be interesting to hear your thoughts and which direction to take :D
I don't think these ideas are conflicting at all.
As a matter of fact what Day[9] suggests actually is completely compatible with the idea of focusing on mechanics.
The point of having a plan is that you have it even BEFORE the game starts, that way when you are playing you are only focusing on the mechanics/execution.
Thing about mechanics is that you can really only practice them while you're playing the game, and performing the actions, but a plan is something that you should develop before the game actually starts, and you can do this just by thinking about it while sitting on the toilet or what-not, the replay watching is only there to give you the information based on which you're forming the plan.
On August 26 2009 04:24 Strayline wrote: I really liked the last podcast for some reason Day[9] especially the last point you made about paying attention to your mental states. I know that I personally am really bad about staying in "the zone." I've been able to improve mostly through mechanical skill (I can get C- but can't really win games there at this point) but it's really easy for me to get thrown off.
Like last night on Destination. Oh my god--what is up with Terrans? They have a perfectly reasonable game they can play but everyone just seems to do vulture runbys lately. (This literally happened 4 out of 5 ZvTs I played last night). Anyway the vultures come in... I micro drones and Hydras as best I can but my game just falls apart after that. The 4-5 speed vulture runbys are especially bad. They are like impossible to stop completely and always get a good chunk of my drones.
Anyway, I notice that games where I get badly tilted or get too far ahead or behind (basically out of the zone) has a point where my APM level drops dramatically. It's sometimes good to go back in BWChart and figure out exactly when I stopped multitasking and then figure out what was going on in the game at that point.
I would be curious as to how you go about modifying your play style. I find it incredibly hard to modify my play by saying things like "I will not forget to build an OL on 24 this game" or "I will switch from drones to Hydras at 40" before hand. I would love to be able to be like "ok... the next time I get 2ported unexpectedly I will build Overlords and drones correctly while microing my Hydras" or "I will remain not panic and stall for defilers when the vessel/tank/mm push comes out" but that seems several orders of magnitude harder then the first two examples lol How do you actually enforce this in a real game?
The only way I get comfortable enough with this stuff is just to have it happen to me enough times that it isn't quite so unexpected. If I try to actively prime or pep-talk myself it doesn't work at all. Just suddenly one game I am less panicked...
Strayline
Vs Terran on Destination, move your second overlord directly to his main(keep going if you scout mech, back off if mnm), and use it to scout. If you see 2 factories and are going for a 3hatch build, put the hatch against the edge of your main, to the side of your nat hatch and put a hydra den in between them. That's vulture proof. Then get a sunken in between the bridges, put 4-8 zerglings to block the path behind your nat gas, and then get some Hydras out as soon as the den is finished. The runby won't do anything but kill maybe one drone.
I listen to Day[9]'s sultry soothing voice daily in my car. It helps me get ready to take on the day with impeccable irl micro and macro. THANKS DAY[9]. You've changed my life.
I'd just like to say that the content of this last podcast is probably the most important aspect for any player, because really, having the right mindset is the key in learning anything. Having a learning attitude towards the game makes a world of difference versus someone else who'd be like "alright I wanna be a pro, now I'll just mass games non stop for 4 months".
I played SC for years on b.net without getting much better, and after 4-5 months of playing on Iccup and reading TL, I had improved more than I did in those 5 years before. Why? Simply because back then, I didnt care about improving, I cared about being good. I would save my so awesome win replays and I'd forget my losses as quickly as possible.
All these tips could easily apply to learning how to draw also, or anything else really.
On August 28 2009 09:50 Revabug wrote: Tbh after listening to the last podcast I'm sort of confused - it kind of implies that a weaker (I'm guessing D+/C-) player should focus on having a plan and watching the replay to perfect adjust his strategy/gameplan, rather than focus on mechanics..
But I've read countless times it's far superior to focus on mechanics first to avoid drilling in bad habits, and I'm sort of inclined to agree because if you have bad mechanics analyzing your play mightn't work so well: you may think you for example lost a battle due to bad unit composition when it was just your micro or macro that was lacking..
Or maybe this podcast was with the assumption your mechanics are already good? I dunno, be interesting to hear your thoughts and which direction to take :D
He has a podcast about mechanics right? Also, imo its more important to do all the correct things you need to do (as in, if your mechanics are good, you can hold of vultures with drones, as your micro will be insane... but is that really the right thing to do? no, you have to make hydralisks in order to strategically nullify the vultures). Also, maybe its just me, but I work on mechanics on the side, because I find that truly understanding the AI and what your doing helps boost your mechanics more than mass gaming trying to increase you multi tasking speed.
On August 27 2009 01:33 Afasia wrote: Usually put one as a bedstime story.
I do the exact same thing! Nothing puts me to sleep faster.. and I mean that as respectfully as possible T_T
So true his voice is so soothing. I want to make a playlist of them all then put them on a CD and play it while I sleep. That way I get better at SC while sleeping and fall asleep faster because of the soothing voice.
I have to agree, Day9's podcasts are the best i've ever seen (heard). Even the more popular ones, like cagcast or in game chat don't compare...
And I also listen to his podcasts on my iPod when lie on my bed, LOL.
I also feel that his podcasts have actually had a big impact on my game, changed me from being on the brink of D- to being a fully fleged D, haha. Keep up the good work
What is possibly my favorite thing about Day[9]'s podcasts is how he encourages every player to play his or her own game. I've always been annoyed at people discussing things like strategy viability on discussion sites. The too often portrayed idea of how to get better is copying other people's strategies and executing them as well as possible.
People are taught 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra from the beginning, and while those strategies can give good examples of how other strategies work, you don't have to do things like dedicate yourself to strict drone production because the strategy says you need 28 drones on minerals and 6 on gas before you can start building military units. There are just so many possibilities and side roads to try out. Merely attempting to discuss them gets your idea burned to the ground at a place like this, even though nobody ever tries them. I always feel that if it wasn't seen in a pro game the general SC population believes it shouldn't be done.
An example that I'd like to use is about ZvT. In the world of counters, there is a method to countering a bunker rush. You're supposed to use around 8 or 9 drones to lock marines out of the bunker while picking off SCVs where possible. Once zerglings come, you're in the clear and you can save that expansion.
I was watching the stream of that A level Zerg player, and when he saw the bunker rush coming in, he did his best to fend it off with drones, but also went speedlings. While the marines were attacking his expansion, he built two sunkens in his main and just ran past the bunker to attack his opponent's main. People in the chat were saying that it was brilliant play, but it was just another solution to a problem often seen by Zerg players. I could have thought of that. Most people who play Starcraft could have thought of it. However, it's not the "way to do things," and therefore "should not be done." This is the the vice of the build order.
Your podcasts have helped me break this mentality, and I went from being a 10-22 iCCup player to a 23-7 player. Obviously I'm still not great (D+ is NOTHING to brag about, and that was never my intention), but I'm willing to try new things now, and I'm a better player because of it.
Thanks. Many high-level players are full of themselves and look down on amateurs merely mentioning the idea of a nonstandard style of play, but you don't do that at all.
I love you! :D Your mech basics have done so much for my play! I was one of those too-high-sens-guys before. thanks to you, no longer, and it has really improved my play. Really looking forward to more mechanics vods :D. Keep up the good work, man!
I've been listening a lot to your podcasts the last couple of weeks, and something that keeps nagging at me is the following: what do you do when you get "massive amounts of units". I suppose this one falls under your Mech series, since it's about .. well, mechanics, but basically, I listen to what you're saying and I keep thinking: "okay, we have 1-4 units, 5-0 hatcheries, though sometimes we have 'special/important units' at 0 so 1-4 units, 5-9 hatcheries, and 0 as special." and then you proceed to say "now you have maybe 5 to 6 control groups of hydras, ..." and I'm lost. I can think of a number of ways to put them in, but usually, you say this in conjunction with having lots of hatcheries, so it's not like 7-9 lay unused or anything. When do you switch out hatcheries for unit groups? DO you ever? Or do you mouse-box-in the units of a massive assault and attack with them using the F-keys to flip back and forth between your massive un-CTRLd army and the position you want them to go into?
This might be too nooby for you to even bring up and that might be why you haven't because everybody knows already, so apologies in advance if that happens to be the case.
Drove about 5 hours this weekend. Thanks for keeping me company Day[9] :D Relistening to your podcasts made the time fly by and gave me lots of great ideas and motivation to play! <3
I redirected at least two friends who started playing online like 6 months ago. They agreed it was great and it helps a lot when I explain how things works, micro / macro, build orders etc ...
Its really hard to put some concepts into words and you did a great job of doing that and describing the big picture ! Well done
I finally got around to listening to your latest podcast and I have to say, it was an excellent one with some great reminders that I definitely needed to hear today.
Actually, in one of your last points you mentioned that, when you're faced with an unusual or unexpected situation, to take a quick second to make a decision about what to do, then stick to that decision/plan, (if it required deviating from your original plan, of course). I had just been watching a livestream (from Proterg, I think, but I could be wrong) and he was faced with exactly that situation, something that he'd never expected to happen. Because he was commentating his play, it was easy to understand his thought-process. He did exactly what you'd advised there, he took a couple of seconds to think about his game plan, then came up with a new idea, ran with it and made it work for himself, he then went on to win the game.
Hearing your comments on that issue reminded me very much of that, so now I've not only had the reminder, in the form of your podcast, but I've also seen an actual example of it in action.
I have just listened to all of your podcasts, and as a newer zerg player trying to push through to C- and constantly getting crushed by mech, your stopping mech cast helped me stop playing mech the same way i was playing vs mnm. Great casts on the whole, keep it up, churn them out :D
I would like to suggest building placement for podcast... You know general placement that makes macro good and bloking with buildings... I have real problem when i get in late stage of game and i want to add factory/rax to find space for it and it really hurts my macro
On September 28 2009 16:26 DeerDance wrote: I would like to suggest building placement for podcast... You know general placement that makes macro good and bloking with buildings... I have real problem when i get in late stage of game and i want to add factory/rax to find space for it and it really hurts my macro
In zerg vs terran, the game plan and overall strategy for playing vs a mnm player or a mech player are quite different, particularly leading up to the late game with unit mixes and general plans for build orders.
If you are playing on a map where both mnm and mech are viable, and you can't get into the terrans base to see their tech because either a drone or overlord scout have been effectively denied, how would you alter or play against this, when there are so many possibilities and "imaginary players" that could occur from the terrans play? How would you deal with this?
i would talk to myself and say "you can do this". dude i think this is my main problem not in game. i just don't know how to constantly think about the game without going on tangents.
dethrawr: I think this is explained in the imaginary player thing as you mentioned. For example if you don't see vultures after a certain amount of time, the probability that the opponent is going mech is "lower". Stuff like that. The whole point with that thing is that you don't necessarily need to scout in order to find out what your opponent is doing. If I understand what he was saying right, that is.
Comic: Let the man get them done when he gets them done. He's not paid or anything, you know.
Day[9]: Though I would be very happy if you could get an RSS feed, man. I've kept this topic open in FF for over a month now just to see when a new one is released. An RSS feed I could add to gmail or whatever would be oh so wonderful.
On October 10 2009 12:57 kallewoof wrote: dethrawr: I think this is explained in the imaginary player thing as you mentioned. For example if you don't see vultures after a certain amount of time, the probability that the opponent is going mech is "lower". Stuff like that. The whole point with that thing is that you don't necessarily need to scout in order to find out what your opponent is doing. If I understand what he was saying right, that is.
Comic: Let the man get them done when he gets them done. He's not paid or anything, you know.
Day[9]: Though I would be very happy if you could get an RSS feed, man. I've kept this topic open in FF for over a month now just to see when a new one is released. An RSS feed I could add to gmail or whatever would be oh so wonderful.
The problem is that if you cant scout, then you see vultures heading to your base and you have continued with a 3 hatch muta build with lair before den, sneaky vulture harass can cripple a zerg. Just wondering if there is any way or mindset you can adapt to overcome this problem.
On September 28 2009 16:26 DeerDance wrote: I would like to suggest building placement for podcast... You know general placement that makes macro good and bloking with buildings... I have real problem when i get in late stage of game and i want to add factory/rax to find space for it and it really hurts my macro
This describes me too
That would be more stuff you can just figure out in single player or something. It doesn't take much effort at all, or you could just watch a few games of good players doing the same map/pos whatever you want and see how they get away with it.
Great podcasts. Although I enjoy the more general ones more as I don't play SC much anymore and find they will probably be helpful for SC2. Audios like having the right mindset and one of the earlier ones where you went over how to make your own timings and builds properly were great to listen too.
hopefully i'll be able to do another one on friday or tuesday next week. blargh life is busy. 2hatch vs 3hatch has been on hold for a long time because i'm trying to balance out against JUST zerg podcasts haha
I haven't listened yet, but I hope this is about the cute 1fac FE -> 1rax vessel builds the SKT1 Terrans like to do. I find it impressive that they can defend these sorts of builds.
For those who are asking about making podcasts for Z T or P races he already has. His ideas can be applied to all races, and just because he doesn't provide you with an example doesn't mean they don't work. You have to do some of the work for yourself. I would much prefer for him to put out more concepts than to waste time going over every applicable way the concepts could be used.
Good job on these hope to see more. There was one that really helped me thanks a ton.
I just remembered. In another podcast, you said never to use things like "standard" when analyzing play... why did you do it today? I have some answers in mind but im just curious.
On October 14 2009 12:19 vaderseven wrote:Day[9] you should commentate because your podcast there is better than 99% of the commentaries out there and it wasnt even dubbed over a vod!
I had the same idea, but in a slightly different way : what would be awsome is a sort of commentary, except that it would not be on-the-fly like a true one, but prepared, eventually paused in crucial times, to show certain things, the way we should understand the situation of each player, etc. That would be very nice.
This being said, the podcasts are already awesome, thank you DAy[9], and keep going !!
Just a suggestion from a frequent listener, I think it would be really cool if you did your next podcast on either a) analyzing a new map, or b) analyzing your replays. I think these are both those types of things that you think you do right, until you listen to advice from somebody as experienced as you Day[9], and i think they are essential skills to getting better, especially analyzing replays.
just a suggestion.
Edit: just finished the new podcast, thanks for the good work, especially since you've been so busy.
Additionally, this thread will be the official "request thread" for topics you'd like me to discuss. Topics could be on: general structure of play, matchup specific play, issues w/ particular builds, micro/macro tips, analysis of certain promatches etc. Feel free to be as vague or as specific as you'd like. For example:
-"what is the underlying difference between 3hatch and 2hatch vs terran? Why should I choose one over the other?"
Hi Day, long time listener, first time caller... uh huh...
I realized I was crazy recently when it dawned on me that I actually enjoy watching ZvZ games, but why is ZvZ the mirror matchup it is today and are there good builds to break the mold?
Why is ZvZ 99% ling harass into MutaScourge vs MutaScourge? Is it the fast paced nature of the build? Why do most players conform to this template and play Rock-Paper-Scissors game after game? Do you foresee any potential of this mold ever getting broken, mainstreamed, and a new life breathed into this mirror matchup? What makes a map better for doing one of those wacky non-standard builds that you see oh so rarely?
I figured you'd have some light to shine on this area if only a short answer.
Why is ZvZ 99% ling harass into MutaScourge vs MutaScourge? Is it the fast paced nature of the build? Why do most players conform to this template and play Rock-Paper-Scissors game after game? Do you foresee any potential of this mold ever getting broken, mainstreamed, and a new life breathed into this mirror matchup? What makes a map better for doing one of those wacky non-standard builds that you see oh so rarely?
I think Day[9] mentioned once in one off his podcasts that he went 40+ - 1 when he manage to create a well timed hydra build, not sure which 1 though =D
That's a good point. He said the 1 he lost was the first time he tried it and was feeling it out.
Though, it's still not a popular thing to do and I'm really curious as to why MutaScourge is the mainstream way.
Personally, my favorite non-standard build was Xiaozi on TLattack on Tau Cross with a 3 hatch build into hydras and queen. But Xiaozi himself said that he never did that build versus "good players"
Hey Day[9], I have a question with regards to self-improvement within the game:
What would you consider the most efficient way(s) to spend time when it comes to getting better at the game (practicing, watching games, coming up with builds, etc.) when the amount of time you have is limited?
Just wanted to finally say thank you sooo much Day[9]. I know everyone has benefited alot from the podcasts, but after listening and trying (always trying) to apply everything i learn my play is vastly improved. Day.... YOU are the man! Keep em coming, and id like to see one like what SiegeFlank is suggesting.
On October 20 2009 11:13 SiegeFlank wrote: Hey Day[9], I have a question with regards to self-improvement within the game:
What would you consider the most efficient way(s) to spend time when it comes to getting better at the game (practicing, watching games, coming up with builds, etc.) when the amount of time you have is limited?
If your time is limited, then probably a balance that emphasizes playing more than anything else is the best idea.
Aagh an entire podcast on a build Fantasy did against Jaedong that probably wasn't even his own creation T_T As a loyal fantasy hater, that makes me pretty sad, but it still was a quality podcast. I hope you could do another Zerg podcast soon, and it seems like you're planning on doing the 2h vs 3h podcast. Awesome. I hope you'll go into enough detail about certain less well-known builds like the 2hatch "economic" lurker build into contain -> expand -> defilers. I've always wanted to know more about that but information about it seems to be very difficult to find.
Good job as always, looking forward to the next podcast.
On October 10 2009 12:57 kallewoof wrote: Day[9]: Though I would be very happy if you could get an RSS feed, man. I've kept this topic open in FF for over a month now just to see when a new one is released. An RSS feed I could add to gmail or whatever would be oh so wonderful.
Can I offer a suggestion on this one? Put in dates in the RSS feed title. I keep seeing various titles appear that I don't instantly recognize so I keep getting my hopes up about a new release when it's just showing a random, old one. Just like Day[9] does it, e.g. "10.15 fooing a bar" or whatever would be awesomeific...
edit: another awesome thing would be if you could actually put the dates into the xml of the rss feed itself. Ideally both, but one or the other works. Feeds with dates for each entry show the "# of days ago" in the gmail web clips, so people would know from that as well.
On October 10 2009 12:57 kallewoof wrote: Day[9]: Though I would be very happy if you could get an RSS feed, man. I've kept this topic open in FF for over a month now just to see when a new one is released. An RSS feed I could add to gmail or whatever would be oh so wonderful.
Can I offer a suggestion on this one? Put in dates in the RSS feed title. I keep seeing various titles appear that I don't instantly recognize so I keep getting my hopes up about a new release when it's just showing a random, old one. Just like Day[9] does it, e.g. "10.15 fooing a bar" or whatever would be awesomeific...
edit: another awesome thing would be if you could actually put the dates into the xml of the rss feed itself. Ideally both, but one or the other works. Feeds with dates for each entry show the "# of days ago" in the gmail web clips, so people would know from that as well.
Sounds like a good thing to do on a Sunday morning. It should be done shortly.
Edit: It looks like only the past two podcasts have their dates up there. If anyone can post a list of the podcasts and the day they were published I will add it to the others.
I haven't changed the title yet, just added a pubdate entry for the ones I know the date for. Once I can change all of their titles I will.
Thanks Day[9], I've learned a lot from these podcasts.
If I could request something, though, it would be a guide to self-improvement. Though all your podcasts are indirectly about self-improvement due to their educational nature, I feel lost with only one friend who plays Starcraft decently and not being good enough to hold my own on ICCup / there being too much cheese on ICCup (I just got finished being inbase proxied in a TvT on Heartbreak Ridge, after being proxied on Destination by a protoss, after being proxied inbase on Heartbreak Ridge T.T).
If you want this request in the form of a question, How does someone relatively new to the game improve themselves with limited practice partners and resources?
On October 25 2009 07:55 Contendor wrote: Sounds like a good thing to do on a Sunday morning. It should be done shortly.
Edit: It looks like only the past two podcasts have their dates up there. If anyone can post a list of the podcasts and the day they were published I will add it to the others.
I haven't changed the title yet, just added a pubdate entry for the ones I know the date for. Once I can change all of their titles I will.
"In a number of TvTs I see players use tank mode against siege mode and win. When I try to use tank mode against sieged tanks I tend to lose out.
Given I'm watching VODs I don't always have all the information (upgrades, hp left, et cetera) so I'm not always sure why sometimes players push with tank mode and other times siege.
What information/criteria governs the decision to stay in tank mode and push up with tanks and goliaths? In what circumstances is it best to do it?"
Copy and paste from a thread.
Could you do a post cast about siege units? Siege tanks, Lurkers, et cetera. Specifically, could you talk about how to use them best when not in siege, like how to attack in tank mode and all that?
Why is ZvZ 99% ling harass into MutaScourge vs MutaScourge? Is it the fast paced nature of the build? Why do most players conform to this template and play Rock-Paper-Scissors game after game? Do you foresee any potential of this mold ever getting broken, mainstreamed, and a new life breathed into this mirror matchup? What makes a map better for doing one of those wacky non-standard builds that you see oh so rarely?
I think Day[9] mentioned once in one off his podcasts that he went 40+ - 1 when he manage to create a well timed hydra build, not sure which 1 though =D
Even though hydras might have more force as a "force" than mutaling, if you go hydras, you can't leave your base. If you do, mutalisks will come and destroy all of your drones.
On November 01 2009 20:00 beyond.wudge wrote: Could you do a post cast about siege units? Siege tanks, Lurkers, et cetera. Specifically, could you talk about how to use them best when not in siege, like how to attack in tank mode and all that?
To specifically talk about how to best make use of "unsieged" (i.e. unburied) lurkers can be rather tricky, if you ask me. ;D
As a terran I have difficulty determining when I should attack with mech in TvZ. Could you talk about timing of attacks? When to be aggressive/defensive?
Why has 9 hatch 9 pool gone so completely out of style in ZvP? I've always thought it was a very balanced build and it gets a lot of hate I don't think it deserves. What do you see as the merits/flaws of this opening?
I request a second part for the Mechanics :D If you've got the time to do these, with your daily show going on and all.
For example, you could go into detail in what different ways you can micro certain units, or if you have any tips on how to macro in an efficient manner.
Some sub topics I came up with: Small tips on how to make your M&M-group survive easier in TvZ. How to maneuver with the protoss ball. How to work up a good rhythm between macroing and microing (i would really need this one, I always tend to forget my macro when things heat up no matter how hard I try). How to split workers, if there is a special "trick" to do it or learn it faster. ...Or any other topic outside of the basics, really.
I've got really horrible mechanics, that's why I ask My M&M balls tend to get slaughtered, just because I'm not sure how and when to retreat or stand my ground.
Cheers on the PodCasts! Personally, I enjoy the style as well as the content.
I've always been curious about what's at stake in the layout of your base. Would it be possible to get a cast on what decisions you are / should be making when base-building?
Day[9], for the mechanics podcast about hotkeys, and you mention utilizing all of the numbers. Can you comment on Jaedong not using the 8-0 keys and being so godly?
Also a tip: clean the gunk off your mouse. even on laser/otical mouses, the gunk builds up on the bottom. this increases friction, and makes you "jump" when trying to make slow or fine movements.
As a brand new player learning from scratch, thank you very much! Resources like the ones you are providing are perfect for me, and I'm sure that even as I improve I will gain even more from these podcasts.
On April 19 2010 21:05 cHicKeLoR wrote: Hey day[9], could you make podcasts about sc2. Maybe about each race (strong,weak points) and/or about strategies?
The day[9] daily has replaced this, so I wouldn't expect another one. That said the podcasts can be quite helpful for SC2 since they explain his thought process he uses for that game as well.
I am bumping this thread because these podcasts are an invaluable and what seems to now be an underutilized resource for learning both Brood War and SC2.
For anybody that seeks to improve at the newly released SC2, I suggest you listen to these podcasts. Perhaps the ones regarding certain maps (i.e. heeartbreak ridge) are less applicable than others, I find that once my friends, people on IRC, livestream, etc., etc., have watched all of the Day9 dailies they want something else to check out and I am constantly recommending these to them.
It seems not a lot of people know about these...they are oldies but goodies.
IMO they are full of far more in-depth and analytical analyses than a lot of the dailies, especially given that with the dailies, I sometimes find myself far too "into" watching the game unfolding before my eyes, whereas these podcasts are audio only, and not full of distracting things *ooh shiny siege tanks!*.
Definitely recommend you give these a listen, and hope/feel that this is a worthy bump.
On August 02 2010 08:36 RoieTRS wrote: I really wanted to hear the 2hatch vs 3hatch podcast. Especially now since Flash's TvZ timing when zerg goes 3hatch muta.
yea that would be great. too bad he doesn't do BW any more
I was going to bump this thread just the other day for the same reason. I was listening to a few the other day for the first time since they were released, and I think that many are very applicable for anyone looking to improve in either Brood War or SC2.
It's a shame Sean does not do anything with SC1 anymore. I don't play it much myself any longer, but I still follow the pro-scene and I appreciated his commentary on SC1.
Yes i still too listen to quite a few of them still even though i play SC2 primarily now. Alot of its applications apply to general scenarios and they help temendously!
Just a personal thank you to Sean for providing these, I've applied a lot of the lessons to my play both in SC1/2. Would like to see some more in the future or perhaps a video interpetation/guide of the mechanics and lessons.
I got into RTS gaming with the hype of sc2, but I totally respect the BW scene, and I love that someone bumped this up. Gonna start listen through the wise ones thoughts in BW
On January 25 2011 08:10 zobz wrote: Day[9] sold his soul to starcraft 2.
i know.....if he said he was doing a bw daily i would be on that shit so fast. Is it just me or does any one else feel like his BW discussions had more ... substance?
On January 25 2011 08:10 zobz wrote: Day[9] sold his soul to starcraft 2.
i know.....if he said he was doing a bw daily i would be on that shit so fast. Is it just me or does any one else feel like his BW discussions had more ... substance?
Are you a fly? ewww I wouldn't want to be on shit.....
Anyway, it was for a different and more hardcore audience, I think his sc2 will eventually gear up towards that level especially as the game progresses, may take a few years but I'm sure his fan base will move forward as esports developes
On January 25 2011 08:10 zobz wrote: Day[9] sold his soul to starcraft 2.
i know.....if he said he was doing a bw daily i would be on that shit so fast. Is it just me or does any one else feel like his BW discussions had more ... substance?
Well, to be fair, SC1 was very well understood / explored when Day9 was doing the BW dailies, so of course he'd have much deeper insight about it than SC2. I do wish he'd do a BW throwback vid every other week or something instead of the gimmicky newbie days, but ah well
On January 25 2011 08:10 zobz wrote: Day[9] sold his soul to starcraft 2.
i know.....if he said he was doing a bw daily i would be on that shit so fast. Is it just me or does any one else feel like his BW discussions had more ... substance?
His newer SC2 dailies are made with the casual and learning audience in mind, especially the Funday Mondays and the Newbie Tuesdays. Although he has become the go-to guy for newer players to improve their play, he still does quite a few high level commentaries of professional games. Granted, he does try to cater somewhat to his casual audience during all his Dailies, but that's probably mainly due to the shift in the playerbase following SC2's release.
His SC2 dailies focus on education over analysis, while his BW's dailies focus more on analysis as opposed to education. Nevertheless, I find both his SC2 and BW dailies to be quite close in terms of levels of education, analysis, and entertainment. Also, I think people are thinking too much about his Funday Mondays and his Newbie Tuesdays which are definitely casual-based. He does some VERY high level analysis during the other days of the week.
On January 25 2011 08:10 zobz wrote: Day[9] sold his soul to starcraft 2.
i know.....if he said he was doing a bw daily i would be on that shit so fast. Is it just me or does any one else feel like his BW discussions had more ... substance?
Well, to be fair, SC1 was very well understood / explored when Day9 was doing the BW dailies, so of course he'd have much deeper insight about it than SC2. I do wish he'd do a BW throwback vid every other week or something instead of the gimmicky newbie days, but ah well
Would totally watch his bw throwback dailies if he made them. Besides, i imagine that might do wonders for getting sc2 players to get more into sc1. Although the comparison might be quite destructive to the sc2 community.
time to go try out this sair into goon/reaver build. been doing something similar (the scout into 3 gate goon attack) but all the info about going core before zealot, scouting later, goon second and being agressive pre-reaver is amazingly helpful. its such a shame there aren't more of these
On October 13 2011 00:20 Kiante wrote: time to go try out this sair into goon/reaver build. been doing something similar (the scout into 3 gate goon attack) but all the info about going core before zealot, scouting later, goon second and being agressive pre-reaver is amazingly helpful. its such a shame there aren't more of these
I started working this build last night too. I love being able to press the issue early game instead of giving all the freedom to Z. Such a great podcast series. I wish there were more race specific ones.
On February 05 2011 03:53 Torenhire wrote: I have always wanted for a Day9 Throwback day into BW. I really miss the old Day9 Dailies about BW, Throwback Thursday is an awesome idea XD
I just decided to listen to all of Day9s BW podcasts, so I have some questions:
I searched the forums and only found this thread.
1) Are there more then the 15 files he posts in the OP? 2) Does anybody have all the files on HDD and can upload them as a zip file? That would be so nice ;D (Or is there a link anywhere which I don't see?) 3) Didn't he do BW vods as well?
On October 30 2011 02:24 Prof. Protoss wrote: I just decided to listen to all of Day9s BW podcasts, so I have some questions:
I searched the forums and only found this thread.
1) Are there more then the 15 files he posts in the OP? 2) Does anybody have all the files on HDD and can upload them as a zip file? That would be so nice ;D (Or is there a link anywhere which I don't see?) 3) Didn't he do BW vods as well?
Thanks a lot!
1. No, as far as I know. And I searched. There are some good dailies that are about mechanics and general things, so you can take a look at those. 2. Why would you need a zip file for that? MP3 is the same size as a zip, plus all the podcasts are listed in the last spoiler of the op. You'll lose maybe 1 minute clicking on each link. 3. Yes. Those are his early Day[9] dailies, up to around daily #112. The link to the oldest dailies: http://day9.tv/archives/page/10/
Im trying to listen to the Mechanics podcast (The longer one). Its cutting out at around 3 minutes and you cant fast forward through these bad boys. Can someone help?
On July 04 2012 00:23 R3demption wrote: Im trying to listen to the Mechanics podcast (The longer one). Its cutting out at around 3 minutes and you cant fast forward through these bad boys. Can someone help?
There's a handy page on Liquipedia with transcripts of all of the podcasts here.
On July 04 2012 00:23 R3demption wrote: Im trying to listen to the Mechanics podcast (The longer one). Its cutting out at around 3 minutes and you cant fast forward through these bad boys. Can someone help?
There's a handy page on Liquipedia with transcripts of all of the podcasts here.
What if we made a vod that followed what Day9 was talking about. Kinda like something he can commentate on. A mashup of situations pertaining to what he is saying so people have live examples of what he is talking about. The reverse of casting a replay, but using replays to what is relevant.
On March 01 2014 12:41 ninazerg wrote: I'm always linking people to this thread. I just go "listen to this shit"
Yea, every time I coach/help someone I send them here as well. Such a fountain of knowledge, well put together and though out.
This deserves a necro every few months. Even the sc2 people should listen to some, if not all of these. Hell, even people from other games can find something relevant here.
On March 03 2014 11:39 art_of_turtle wrote: What if we made a vod that followed what Day9 was talking about. Kinda like something he can commentate on. A mashup of situations pertaining to what he is saying so people have live examples of what he is talking about. The reverse of casting a replay, but using replays to what is relevant.
Well, it requires time and dedication. I feel like the replays should be chosen and obsed with much care and everything recorded with as much quality as the podcast, if possible, just to avoid lessening this great work. But hey, who am I to tell people what to do, if someone would like to make anything, go ahead.
On March 03 2014 11:39 art_of_turtle wrote: What if we made a vod that followed what Day9 was talking about. Kinda like something he can commentate on. A mashup of situations pertaining to what he is saying so people have live examples of what he is talking about. The reverse of casting a replay, but using replays to what is relevant.
He would have to make a series of VODs. I always thought it might be cool if he did like a weekly show where he talked about this stuff... or even... a daily show.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/funkie/daynine3.png)
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Your audio is very informative and I really really liked it. Whoever listens to it will get better! thank you! 
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