EPT! Day[9] Podcasts E14: TvZ on Heartbreak Ridge - Page 20
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
anTi_
United States499 Posts
| ||
Harem
United States11392 Posts
| ||
|
Hammy
France828 Posts
| ||
|
Navane
Netherlands2749 Posts
| ||
Arrian
United States889 Posts
| ||
|
Amaroq
United States59 Posts
| ||
|
skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On April 25 2009 02:02 Day[9] wrote: That literally NEVER occurred to me. I stand totally corrected. In fact, its kind of interesting that the macro you just described is the inverse of the way I macro w/ terran: You use the keyboard to select the buildings and the mouse to begin the unit. I use the mouse to select the building and the keyboard to make the unit. They necessarily take the same amount of time. neato! Both are useful. Using mouse for units and keyboard for factories is good when you don't want to move your screen back to your factories. Using mouse for factories and keyboard for units is required if you want to build from all your factories if you can't have them all hotkeyed. | ||
|
NeVeR
1352 Posts
| ||
|
threepool
United States150 Posts
One of the things I really liked about your discussion of your anti-mech build was the way you discussed its relationship with scouting. Specifically, you mentioned the surprising things the opponent could do (e.g. 2 port wraith) and what triggers the "beginning" of the build. (i.e. fast gas) My big question about your cast on the 5 hatch hydra build is: suppose that your opponent does *not* get corsairs. At what time is it important to know this, and does it introduce subtle variations into the build, or make the build completely inappropriate? (in another thread it was suggested that you should do a 3 hatch muta or lurker build in this situation, but I wanted to get your opinion on whether this transition is necessary, and what time it should occur) EDIT for clarity | ||
|
WhenHellfreezes
United States81 Posts
On April 25 2009 09:43 threepool wrote: Day[9]: Really glad to see you're churning them out. It's obviously great for the community. One of the things I really liked about your discussion of your anti-mech build was the way you discussed its relationship with scouting. Specifically, you mentioned the surprising things the opponent could do (e.g. 2 port wraith) and what triggers the "beginning" of the build. (i.e. fast gas) My big question about your cast on the 5 hatch hydra build is: suppose that your opponent does *not* get corsairs. At what time is it important to know this, and does it introduce subtle variations into the build, or make the build completely inappropriate? (in another thread it was suggested that you should do a 3 hatch muta or lurker build in this situation, but I wanted to get your opinion on whether this transition is necessary, and what time it should occur) EDIT for clarity He covers that. Basically that is what people did before bisu so just mass mutas and expand. | ||
LosingID8
CA10828 Posts
YOU DON'T LOVE MY LAPTOP??  | ||
|
skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On April 25 2009 09:06 NeVeR wrote: 4t5t6v7v8v9v is better because you will still be able to move the screen around or use the mini-map in the process of macroing. With enough practice, you can do it very quickly. I use middle finger on 4-6, pointer on t, pointer on 7-9, ring on v. If you start to get mroe factories, larger armiers that require mroe control groups, and want to keep like 3 scans then it becomes more difficult to macro purely with the keyboard. | ||
|
NeVeR
1352 Posts
On April 25 2009 11:25 skyglow1 wrote: If you start to get mroe factories, larger armiers that require mroe control groups, and want to keep like 3 scans then it becomes more difficult to macro purely with the keyboard. That much is obvious, but we are talking about situations in the mid-game where you would have your factories hotkeyed. In the later stages of the game, I usually will just have one factory hotkeyed to 6 and will double-tap that key whenever I need to macro. In my opinion this is also better than using an F key, since you will already have one factory selected; where as if you were to use an F key to go back to your macro area you would have to take a little bit of extra time to select the first factory. | ||
|
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On April 25 2009 11:25 skyglow1 wrote: If you start to get mroe factories, larger armiers that require mroe control groups, and want to keep like 3 scans then it becomes more difficult to macro purely with the keyboard. Generally when doing any move, with mouse or keyboard, you seek efficiency. You have a task ahead of you and you want to execute it with the least amount of effort and the fastest way possible. This is the only rule that can be applied on all situations, and thats why better players can sometimes make exceptions from the hotkey rule while lesser players shouldn't think of such things very much. In this situation we have a pretty hard handmove, although perfectly doable with some practice if you decide do 4t5t6v7v8v9v, or an easy handmove with in 4t5t6789. The second alternative is less complex and equally efficiant (if not even more efficiant because you will have a really hard time to misclick). NeVeR mentioned that you'll still be able to move around the minimap etc if you use 100% hotkeys, and its good to think of such things, but If you watch the VOD with the example you can see that the macromove takes less than 0.5 seconds, and that reasoning alone is not enough to rather do a move that requires more effort, is harder and has the same efficieny. To easier explain the principle of this reasoning I'll discuss a move obvious case. + Show Spoiler + Lets say you are going to macro from buildings 4 5 6 7, units that have hotkeys p a n w. Lets also say that each of the buildings are of different kinds and that the unit you're going to build in each building are the first unit in that building. In this example you could practice and develop a way to macro with the keyboard only and execute 4p5a6n7w. Or you could select the buildings 4 5 6 7 and click with the mouse on the same spot of the screen 4 times. This is a very extreme situation, and most of you would see pretty fast which move is the most efficient and requires the least amount of effort. The only reason you see it so fast is because of the extremity of the example, but the PRINCIPLE is the same. Its harder to see in the 4t5t6v7v8v9v for some people but still has to be applied when working with the important principle of effortless and efficient handmoves. Skyglow1; Yes, both are useful in different situations. Thats why, in a specific situation, macroing 4t5t6789 is the better option for the moment, hence the exception. The reason why its better than going back and clicking on the factories and building units with the hotkeys is because it requires less handmoves/clicks and you will not have to leave the heat of combat while its still very fast. Whenever you cannot hotkey all your factories or prioritize hotkeying other stuff this exception can no longer be applied. However when trying to explain the general idea of hotkey usage, as I said earlier, its not a good idea to take those exceptions into account. There are most often exceptions to any rule. In this case simply because of the keyboard layout and that the rule of efficiency and less effort applies over the "always use hotkey"-rule. I just figured it would be good to atleast mention that there are exceptions while not thoroughly explaining them, although I had to in this case because people asked me to. Going to listen to 5hatch hydra now, nice work day[9]. | ||
|
Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
thx v.much for pointing this out to me! ^_^ | ||
|
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On April 25 2009 20:49 Day[9] wrote: Stylish you are wise indeed! thx v.much for pointing this out to me! ^_^ I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not;) Anyway I was never trying to point anything out to you specifically, and I think that my post got abit blown out of propotion and I wont derail this anymore hehe. | ||
|
Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
On April 25 2009 20:58 StylishVODs wrote: I can't tell if you're sarcastic or not;) Anyway I was never trying to point anything out to you specifically, and I think that my post got abit blown out of propotion and I wont derail this anymore hehe. no i'm being totally genuine!!!! the 6789 click thing is something i never considered. it makes macroing much easier. ^_^ i don't think its derailing at all. its definitely topical and awesome! : ] | ||
|
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
edit: on the reflex TE on my first tries i fail on level 6 for now | ||
|
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On April 25 2009 21:15 Day[9] wrote: no i'm being totally genuine!!!! the 6789 click thing is something i never considered. it makes macroing much easier. ^_^ i don't think its derailing at all. its definitely topical and awesome! : ] ok thnx^^ + Show Spoiler + I was suspecting sarcasm after some of the discussions I've had with IdrA lately. You on the other hand seem more like someone who actually read what one has to say and consider it before making a conclusion and I'm glad I could help you out in this specific scenario. | ||
|
Julmust
Sweden4867 Posts
| ||
| ||
