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Replay: (removed since u cant watch team melee)
Me against 2 guys on team melee (1v1) on python. I tried to outexpand them, however i didnt leave enuf defenses at my expansions and eventually lost them.
What is the traditional counter to a zerg that turtles in with sunken spore lurker?
I just tried to expand and get reavers at my expos, but was not able to defend before they were built.
I know i might have been able to defend them had i left half my army in one expo, half in the other. But even if i defended my expo, what is the next step. Running into a turtle'd zerg is suicide. However, I think if I went sairs and researched dweb it would have been a good counter to spores and lurkers, I've never seen this done but I think it would be good.
What do you guys think. Oh and I play at D+/C- lvl, last season at least.
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You can't watch a replay of a team melee game.
edit: lots of storm, lots of observers, and/or lots of reavers can beat a turtled base, unless he went waayyyy overboard on the defense, then you should just expo a lot.
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Didn't bother to watch the replay because it's a team melee but I'll give some general advice.
When you see hard turtling it's important that you keep your army size big and concentrated and move out to take a 3rd gas. While you are doing this you must be sure to have proper defenses (not too many because then your army won't be advantageous in a fight) and stop him from taking another expansion.
Once you secured your third gas you can start producing more templars for archons and maybe reavers also (atleast if you see hive). You need to keep harassing him with stuff like storm drops or DT drops. I like 4 DT drop or 2 DT 2 HT to the main. They usually don't have any units there and 4 dts can kill spore fast and then go to work on the rest. If he turtles super hard I'd go for a HT drop and just try top keep doing it all game. As long as your main army keeps growing and your expansions are secure you'll take a huge lead in economy.
You might not notice it right away in the first battle but if you did a few sucessful eco harassments you will notice it by the second or third reinforcement from his army, He will most likely not afford to make as many units as he needs to in comparison to you.
Also you need to be wary of doom drops and zergling / defiler attacks at your expos. Both are stopped best by reavers in speed shuttles + cannons + stationary HTs and maybe some zealots to clean the last remnants of his attacks up.
Remember to not attack his defenses until you're sure he's starved on gas. Most of the times he will give up if you shut down a doom drop and one or two more attacks very well.
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do a better job of out expanding him. it's easy. focus on having a bigger army than him, rather than taking lots of expansions. Taking expansions is secondary. eventually you will gain the advantage just by containing him.
also make sure to keep good tabs on him. check those expansions regularly and if one pops up, immediately shut it down.
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in general you should be keeping your army in the middle of the map, mostly in front of the opponen'ts base, or spread in front of 2 of your own bases. it's ok to spread your guys out somewhat, if you can react fact enough if they start getting attacked.
make small investments into cannons, not big ones. leave a ht at every expo. make sure to get your eps.
pvz is enerally much easier if the zerg contain theirselves.
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Just expo one at a time, keep zerg from expanding, and suicide a few corsiars to make sure he isn't doing anything ur not ready for. Really, if he's dumping this many resources into defense, let him do whatever he wants behind his walls. you just macro up until ur maxed, and get triple forges and all dat shit. u should have a early/mid game advantage because he wastes his money in turtling, and as long as you dont throw away ur army, then you can just keep him back forever really. There is no pressure on you. he's the one who has to escape his base alive and take you out, because you've got map control automatically.
I dunno, whatever. I may watch the rep later to get a better idea.
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I had a big army, I had early game advantage, I got 3 expos over my original main and nat, I eventually got reavers. I got dropped several times in the main, and with their double apm (2 players multitasking) they dropped at one of my expos the same time as my main. They did this twice, and the second time it happened while they dark swarmed my mineral only expo as well. Since it was on python, when they took expos at the "natural" locations, it is easy to take the main expo afterwards.
I thought about doing HT/DT drops however I didn't really feel like I had the apm to control shuttle while macroing and expanding and keeping tabs on zerg's army in the middle so I decided not to. After being dropped on maybe 4-5 times, they just started sending lings/ultras to every one of my expos as well as my main simultaneously/when my army was away.
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maybe you didn't do anything wrong, you just got owned by double apm :p
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I always found PvZ to be harder when Zerg overexpanded. I'm just like waaagghhh, can't keep up.
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Reaver/storm/dt harass the mains.
Expand as well. You could split up your army so he can't deny you.
Macro, macro, macro.
I suggest Carriers for the late game if he's still turtling and it's sort of a stalemate, like PJ vs. Savior on Gaia.
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When zerg turtles, mass muta scourge, I have trouble containing him since my sair count can't get high enough to fight off mass muta + scourge. I can't move out since he will just counter my main/nat. Mean while zerg sunkens up another nat, and takes the second main soon after. When I see this, I spend gas on HT, and money on gates/cannons, and still can't move out. I usually only have 1 stargate; should I add second one? Any suggestions?
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On a map like Python, if they turtle, you should be able to keep them at four bases...deny any more expos and HARASS (templar drops are most annoying). You want to slow them down so they don't get a massive enough economy to fund a full transition into crack/ultra.
It's generally bad for a zerg to play that way, though. From a zerg's perspective, it becomes much more difficult to control toss's expos. Once they get the extra gas, by the time you're ready to move out with your shiny new ultra/ling army, he usually has so many archons/temp that nothing is effective anymore. Archons with +3 attack rape ANYTHING that comes its way unless outnumbered like 4:1 or something, and storms obliterate anything that tries to hide under swarm.
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Going with DT/Storm drops, mass sair, and a quick arbiter recall in the main is devastating. Camping Zergs usually tech to ultra fast and skip mass hydra, thus making arbiters very powerful when accompanied by sairs. Works best vs me if I decide to camp.
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storm, reaver, obs and few goons. i would expand myself. let him turtle , focus on map controlling rest of area
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The very basic rule in broodwar is to not engage battles when it is clear that your units won't be cost efficient.
For example don't trade 2 archons 5 goons and 10 zeals for 3 lurks 10 lings and 5 sunks imo especially if you can't kill the hatch behind. You will lose map control which is really important in pvz because your units are really really slow ( except zealots yea but they suck alone late game ).
So you just camp in the middle of the map or in front of his base kill his army if he try to go out and take some expos ( don't forget to bring some units to defend because he can always drop or sneak units from his expansions ( howver his main army should be in main until he has nydus canals ).
If you prevent him to take more expos it should be ok.
Watch Jaedong vs Bisu game 1 @ intel classic.
http://www.gomtv.net/videos/572
He pressures Jaedong but never commit his main army in a dire situation. And when you have the same number of gaz ( or even better more bases than him ) than the z player we all know what should happen :p
Btw: i thought that any player > D knew that.
That's common sense tbh.
Finish him only if you have a huge lead and he is running out of money.
Then you go storms / reavers maybe / mass goon + few archons. If he has many lurks zealots are quite worthless.
Just stompstorm his units and goons or reavers are enough to deal with the sunks. Zealots are mostly useful as cheap shields ( they take less dmg from sunks than goons ) and if the lame zerg has also defilers.
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OH jeez
im not going to bother with watching the rep
Just keep obs and a soft counter outside of his main/nat/third
to see when he is going to push out. Maintain a constant visual of your opponents base
Tweak your army a bit to counter his. Harrass if you can but if not, mass up
Take one base at a time, with 1-2 cannons at most. Use cannons not to kill, but to dely, for your army to get there and clean up
Lots of ht lots of goons
And throw down a fuckton of gateways
it should be something like...
"oh i have 1000 minerals.."
a notice should pop into your brain
"MAKE MOAR GATEWAYSSSS"
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Thank you for your insightful comments, like always.
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A turtle zerg in Python should get 4 gas (max 5 gas with island)
And your task is simple, slowly match him with base-gas count, make a archon heavy army with 3 forge upgrades. (reavers rapes zerg too) Protect your expos with reaver-storm-cannon and most importantly, DO NOT LET HIM GETTING A FREE BASE WITH SUNKENS-SPORES-LURKERS (Besides 2 main-nats and island) , keep map control and prevent him expanding and kill him slowly
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If the zerg is truly just turtling with sunken/spore/lurker, then it should be easy to just storm the lurkers, transform all your HTs into archons, then break the sunken line with the archons.
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On March 15 2009 08:26 SteveNick wrote:
If the zerg is truly just turtling with sunken/spore/lurker, then it should be easy to just storm the lurkers, transform all your HTs into archons, then break the sunken line with the archons.
Not if the lurks are behind the sunks lol.
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This should be more of a zergs response to your play, if you took your 3rd soon as in you didnt go for some kind of 2 base huge timing attack you should be completely fine, even ahead. Just stop making dragoons/zealots, expand more and split your army to defend your bases, DO NOT place it in front of him or in the middle of the map and switch to only making stuff like dts, reavers, hts and corsairs, speed shuttles are your best friend.
If you delayed your 3rd for a huge army then youre in a much tougher position but the way to play it is the same, just secure 2 expansions as soon as you can and make the same tech transition place your army near your bases and get reavers asap.
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On March 15 2009 08:26 SteveNick wrote:
If the zerg is truly just turtling with sunken/spore/lurker, then it should be easy to just storm the lurkers, transform all your HTs into archons, then break the sunken line with the archons.
yeah definitely do what this guy says.
best counter to mass defense is an all out attack with everything you've got!
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On March 15 2009 08:57 Cloud wrote:
Just stop making dragoons/zealots, expand more and split your army to defend your bases, DO NOT place it in front of him or in the middle of the map .
Why ?
That was my advice lol.
I can understand that you need to be closer to your base / expos when he has drop or nydus but usually he will only get it very late. And you can still scout drop and come back to your base even if your army is in the middle.
If you have a larger army i think that map control is very important.
It will be way more difficult for him to attack your expos or to grab another base.
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Eww... EWW why would a zerg EVER turtle unless it's in response to some sort of timing attack? That just doesn't compute with me.
Out expand and starve him, don't waste units needlessly in a wall of lurker spines.
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On March 15 2009 11:55 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2009 08:57 Cloud wrote:
Just stop making dragoons/zealots, expand more and split your army to defend your bases, DO NOT place it in front of him or in the middle of the map . Why ? That was my advice lol. I can understand that you need to be closer to your base / expos when he has drop or nydus but usually he will only get it very late. And you can still scout drop and come back to your base even if your army is in the middle. If you have a larger army i think that map control is very important. It will be way more difficult for him to attack your expos or to grab another base.
Map control is irrelevant here, he is already sacrificing it, nydus canals make it really easy for the zerg to concentrate all of his forces in one spot, while you have to split your army to contain, doom drops are also a big issue and he wont seriously attack you before hive. If you play passive you can just out tech him and outmacro him. He wont be interested in grabbing another base anytime soon, he is most likely on 4 gasses already, if he turtles with only 3 bases and no close 4th well he is a damn idiot.
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If he has 4 gas and nydus i completly agree.
Basicly i was talking about 3 gaz ( main+expo+another main on let's say python ) and him still on lair / trying to get on hive.
So it is way earlier in the game.
However if your expo are well defended ( like mass cannons + ht and reavers ) i still think it is safe to patrol in the middle of the map because it is where you are the closest from all your expos.
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On March 15 2009 10:34 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2009 08:26 SteveNick wrote:
If the zerg is truly just turtling with sunken/spore/lurker, then it should be easy to just storm the lurkers, transform all your HTs into archons, then break the sunken line with the archons. yeah definitely do what this guy says. best counter to mass defense is an all out attack with everything you've got!
Of course denying any additional expansions and expanding yourself while keeping map control is the -best- move, but at some point when you know you're ahead and don't want to drag out the game another 10 minutes, it's time to attack, as long as you think you can win the attack.
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EPT
