On January 25 2009 12:37 Cloud wrote: So what are you saying? That he should play completely standard after being denied from scouting? Just because its apparently impossible to have a corsair out before he decides to break your base, or that the matchup is imbalanced because you just cant simply scout it?..without sick timing senses.
The timing of the rush gets to the front before the Sair scouts that something is up. Your sair will let you see he's 2 hatch hydra just in time to get a faceload of hydra/ling.
On January 25 2009 12:37 Cloud wrote: So what are you saying? That he should play completely standard after being denied from scouting? Just because its apparently impossible to have a corsair out before he decides to break your base, or that the matchup is imbalanced because you just cant simply scout it?..without sick timing senses.
...I am saying your advice of "get a Corsair faster" is completely wrong, and that he needs to try whatever he can to sense what the Zerg is doing. Hiding an extra probe, sending out 3/4 zealots, or anything you can think of. And yes, sometimes, you need to just guess and hope for the best. Why do you think Protoss players lose to Hydra break if he can get a Corsair out on time? That makes no sense.
On January 25 2009 12:37 Cloud wrote: So what are you saying? That he should play completely standard after being denied from scouting? Just because its apparently impossible to have a corsair out before he decides to break your base, or that the matchup is imbalanced because you just cant simply scout it?..without sick timing senses.
The timing of the rush gets to the front before the Sair scouts that something is up. Your sair will let you see he's 2 hatch hydra just in time to get a faceload of hydra/ling.
Hahaha I didn't even catch the links first. Thanks for the examples!
On January 25 2009 13:16 Cloud wrote: Right, and when considering the other million possibilities that can follow speedlings?
Now, i dont really know if any of the guys in the vods got their sairs fast enough, but theres a reason i also suggested making constant zeals.
Aren't you kind of contradicting yourself? You tell him to get a faster Corsair even if it means cutting probes, then you also tell him to get constant Zealots? You do realize getting constant zealots slows your tech down. Anyhow, zealots are pretty much useless verses Hydras if you don't have enough cannons in the first place. This isn't PvZ in an ideal world. You can't pump zealots, control economy, and tech fast all at the same time.
So your advice is to ditch the corsair completely and play a guessing game?, despite the huge possibility that the zerg isnt going for 2 hatch hydra? Considering that the possibility of losing all of your zeals when you dont know the zergs ling count is very serious if he is going for an all in, they arent a very reliable source of info. The hidden scouting probe doesnt work most of the times, what kind of zerg will leave every single zergling he has outside your nat?
On January 25 2009 12:37 Cloud wrote: So what are you saying? That he should play completely standard after being denied from scouting? Just because its apparently impossible to have a corsair out before he decides to break your base, or that the matchup is imbalanced because you just cant simply scout it?..without sick timing senses.
...I am saying your advice of "get a Corsair faster" is completely wrong, and that he needs to try whatever he can to sense what the Zerg is doing. Hiding an extra probe, sending out 3/4 zealots, or anything you can think of. And yes, sometimes, you need to just guess and hope for the best. Why do you think Protoss players lose to Hydra break if he can get a Corsair out on time? That makes no sense.
On January 25 2009 12:37 Cloud wrote: So what are you saying? That he should play completely standard after being denied from scouting? Just because its apparently impossible to have a corsair out before he decides to break your base, or that the matchup is imbalanced because you just cant simply scout it?..without sick timing senses.
The timing of the rush gets to the front before the Sair scouts that something is up. Your sair will let you see he's 2 hatch hydra just in time to get a faceload of hydra/ling.
Hahaha I didn't even catch the links first. Thanks for the examples!
I think most of these are really bad examples: - July vs Bisu @blue storm: one missplaced cannon, corsair sees the shit in front of him bisu warps 1 cannon for a grand total of 4 - Luxury vs Best @andromeda: Best fucked is timing greatly 3 cannons before nexus or gate is too late (you can see that the corsair comes in at least 30 seconds later) - Jaedong vs Lucifer @medusa: i shouldnt even comment this, jaedong went hatch/pool and never paid for ling speed, again lucifer put his 3 cannon in the front. - Savior vs Bisu @blue storm: bad cannon placement, bisu has 4 cannons to defend but 2 never shot until the hidra wave was too high.
My humble opinion: corsair has the timing to see it coming in the middle of the map giving you the time to warp a 5 cannon and normally what ive seen lately is that progamers (best, tazza) put the 4 cannon when sair is 3/4 so when sair scouts they have time to cancel it if needed. So best defence: 2 cannons before nexus, one more after core, 4 cannon at 3/4 sair and 2 more if the sair checks something middleway to the zerg base. High priority to cannon line formation.
On January 25 2009 13:16 Cloud wrote: Right, and when considering the other million possibilities that can follow speedlings?
Now, i dont really know if any of the guys in the vods got their sairs fast enough, but theres a reason i also suggested making constant zeals.
Aren't you kind of contradicting yourself? You tell him to get a faster Corsair even if it means cutting probes, then you also tell him to get constant Zealots? You do realize getting constant zealots slows your tech down. Anyhow, zealots are pretty much useless verses Hydras if you don't have enough cannons in the first place. This isn't PvZ in an ideal world. You can't pump zealots, control economy, and tech fast all at the same time.
Thats where the cutting probes part comes in, as you said, you cant have an ideal game so you must sacrifice something. If he didnt go for an all in, the corsair will tell you if he didnt get enough zerglings and you can then use those zeals to apply pressure on the zerg and regain the econ equality. If he did make enough lings to stop your zeals, chances are that you are already equal.
On January 25 2009 13:48 Cloud wrote: So your advice is to ditch the corsair completely and play a guessing game?, despite the huge possibility that the zerg isnt going for 2 hatch hydra? Considering that the possibility of losing all of your zeals when you dont know the zergs ling count is very serious if he is going for an all in, they arent a very reliable source of info. The hidden scouting probe doesnt work most of the times, what kind of zerg will leave every single zergling he has outside your nat?
No, Cloud, that's nowhere close to what I was saying.
On January 25 2009 03:53 Cloud wrote: Get your corsair asap and keep making zeals, you may need to cut probes, but you want your sair to be out in record time.
On January 25 2009 04:15 Cloud wrote: Thats why you make your sair faster and produce nonstop zeals.
My point is simply that you can't rely on Corsair to stop a Hydra break. Therefore, you sometimes are forced to guess, if every method of getting information faisl. Never did I give an advice that he should play a guessing game. You completely misunderstood what I was trying to say.
What are you trying to argue here? Making constant zeals from 1 gateway and speeding up your tech is impossible even if you cut probes? Arent you a protoss player?
And yes, you said exactly that, you quoted my advice on getting a fast corsair and you said that I was wrong that it would never be in time, anybody would understand that as a "do NOT get corsair" maybe it wasnt your intention but thats what your post said.
On January 25 2009 13:55 Cloud wrote: What are you trying to argue here? Making constant zeals from 1 gateway and speeding up your tech is impossible even if you cut probes? Arent you a protoss player?
And yes, you said exactly that, you quoted my advice on getting a fast corsair and you said that I was wrong that it would never be in time, anybody would understand that as a "do NOT get corsair" maybe it wasnt your intention but thats what your post said.
Uhhhh, no? There's no way that can be translated to "do not get a Corsair" unless you twist what I saying the way you are. I am saying Corsair cannot save you, so you need to do other things in order to stop a Hydra break. Why is this so hard to understand? It doesn't mean you should not get a Corsar, it means you need to do other things in order to stop it. Look, I am simply saying your advice on getting a Corsair faster (somehow) won't rescue you from Hydras. Oh and yes, pumping constant zealots does slow down your tech even if you are cutting probes. Or at least it doesn't speed the tech up.
Like what? Sneaking probes? Totally luck dependant, wont work at all vs a zerg who is expecting it. Using zealots to force him to show his hand? If he made a little too many zerglings it can backfire really bad. Corsair is the only failsafe way, and theres already 1 poster that says it can come in time.
Constant zeals delays your tech? are you serious? its 100 minerals every 30 seconds or so, with your nat already taken. Not even in 1 base play constant zeals from 1 gateway delays your tech, else it would suck.
Id like to read those other things to do to stop an hidra break since i cant figure anything else. You cant reach to the zerg base with 3 zeals because any half smart zerg will retreat his 6 lings and make 4 more at home. Sneaking a probe is not an option normally and worst than that one early probe somewhere hiding hurts your fe. I say just play safer: 3 cannons before stargate, 1 more before sair keep your zeals around your base and be ready to warp cannons as a madman when the sair is crossing the map. And one more thing i noted in the vods: dont take your 2 gas so early wait until the sair scouts the zerg main.
On January 25 2009 14:08 Cloud wrote: Like what? Sneaking probes? Totally luck dependant, wont work at all vs a zerg who is expecting it. Using zealots to force him to show his hand? If he made a little too many zerglings it can backfire really bad. Corsair is the only failsafe way, and theres already 1 poster that says it can come in time.
Constant zeals delays your tech? are you serious? its 100 minerals every 30 seconds or so, with your nat already taken. Not even in 1 base play constant zeals from 1 gateway delays your tech, else it would suck.
All those have a higher chance than a Corsair that comes too late.
My point is you tell him to cut probes in order to get a faster tech, yet you tell him to make zealots. I am saying that would negate the lost probes. (In terms of tech)
On January 25 2009 14:17 malongo wrote: Id like to read those other things to do to stop an hidra break since i cant figure anything else. You cant reach to the zerg base with 3 zeals because any half smart zerg will retreat his 6 lings and make 4 more at home. Sneaking a probe is not an option normally and worst than that one early probe somewhere hiding hurts your fe. I say just play safer: 3 cannons before stargate, 1 more before sair keep your zeals around your base and be ready to warp cannons as a madman when the sair is crossing the map. And one more thing i noted in the vods: dont take your 2 gas so early wait until the sair scouts the zerg main.
Yeah, I agree your suggestion is the safest, but it's just a gamble on the Protoss side. Making extra cannons, not taking second gas fast will come at a heavy cost if you guessed wrong, assuming the Zerg is around your level. But I mean, you gotta take the risk when you have to. If he does in fact go Hydras, then you win!
Probes get made faster than zeals, so the 100 minerals needed for a zeal are worth less than the 100 minerals to make probes from both nexuses, so it doesnt negate them.
Anyways, Cloud I think you're misinterpreting what OneOther is saying, at least in terms of what he means by "corsair wont help you". From his initial response to you on page one, he is simply saying that the timing of corsair will not give you the information in time for you to make adjustments and successfully stop a 2 hatch hydra break - thus other measures must be taken in conjunction and one cannot depend solely on the corsair to give you the information necessary to defend the attack.
On January 25 2009 12:37 Cloud wrote: So what are you saying? That he should play completely standard after being denied from scouting? Just because its apparently impossible to have a corsair out before he decides to break your base, or that the matchup is imbalanced because you just cant simply scout it?..without sick timing senses.
...I am saying your advice of "get a Corsair faster" is completely wrong, and that he needs to try whatever he can to sense what the Zerg is doing. Hiding an extra probe, sending out 3/4 zealots, or anything you can think of. And yes, sometimes, you need to just guess and hope for the best. Why do you think Protoss players lose to Hydra break if he can get a Corsair out on time? That makes no sense.
On January 25 2009 13:14 NovaTheFeared wrote:
On January 25 2009 12:37 Cloud wrote: So what are you saying? That he should play completely standard after being denied from scouting? Just because its apparently impossible to have a corsair out before he decides to break your base, or that the matchup is imbalanced because you just cant simply scout it?..without sick timing senses.
The timing of the rush gets to the front before the Sair scouts that something is up. Your sair will let you see he's 2 hatch hydra just in time to get a faceload of hydra/ling.
Hahaha I didn't even catch the links first. Thanks for the examples!
I think most of these are really bad examples: - July vs Bisu @blue storm: one missplaced cannon, corsair sees the shit in front of him bisu warps 1 cannon for a grand total of 4 - Luxury vs Best @andromeda: Best fucked is timing greatly 3 cannons before nexus or gate is too late (you can see that the corsair comes in at least 30 seconds later) - Jaedong vs Lucifer @medusa: i shouldnt even comment this, jaedong went hatch/pool and never paid for ling speed, again lucifer put his 3 cannon in the front. - Savior vs Bisu @blue storm: bad cannon placement, bisu has 4 cannons to defend but 2 never shot until the hidra wave was too high.
My humble opinion: corsair has the timing to see it coming in the middle of the map giving you the time to warp a 5 cannon and normally what ive seen lately is that progamers (best, tazza) put the 4 cannon when sair is 3/4 so when sair scouts they have time to cancel it if needed. So best defence: 2 cannons before nexus, one more after core, 4 cannon at 3/4 sair and 2 more if the sair checks something middleway to the zerg base. High priority to cannon line formation.
Kinda funny, you look at these games and take them as evidence that the corsair would be able to see what is comming given the right timing. When I watch these games I think it becomes obvious that the corsair won't save you. Best vs Luxury in example: You say his timing is fucked because of 3 cannons before Nexus. But put yourself in Bests position: He scouts 9pool+speed+10lings... the 3rd cannon is basically forced, he has to fear an ling all-in/ run-by at this stage. 2 cannons is not gonna cut it if Luxury shows up with like 16 speedlings at his frontdoor. When you talk about "bad cannon-placement" you need to realize that especially the first cannons are not placed against hydras but against lings... warping all your cannons in front of your buildings is not really an option since zerglings would easily surround them. you would need more cannons to start with which would delay your corsair again.
The main argument has been posted before: If corsairs would be able to scout this in time, there would be no point to use 2hatch hydra. No protoss would ever lose to it.
Yes, i understand that haji, only after he blatantly clarified it however. Still, a fast corsair is i believe the best way, the constant zeals should delay the zergs decision to attack you. Granting you more time for the corsair to come out.
I'm glad thedeadhaji explained it. I was getting confused as to why Cloud was getting worked up.
If the zerg is rushing to break you as fast as he can, and you rush straight to corsair, yes, you'll get the Sair out in time to scout the 2 hatch hydra break but it won't help you stop the hydras other then seeing them rushing to your base. (Unless the Zerg player waits too long and gives you time to build cannons.)
As for getting a Sair out before a Zerg sends his hydras to your base. I'd like to see that build because that means you'd have to skimp on a 3rd cannon or cut zealots to get faster gas which can be risky.
As to exactly stop a 2 hatch or 3 hatch hydra break. It all comes down to your tenacity on wanting to get the scouting information to know if he's going to do it. I'm willing to sacrifice 2 zealots to stall the lings long enough to at least get a probe to the Zerg nat for a look. Sometimes I'll send another probe out as well to act decoy/scout for expos. If you don't see a 3rd, prepare for some kind of attack. If you get a probe to the Zerg nat and you see no 2nd gas taken or it's taken but little drones, the zerg is teching or massing. If you can get in the main base, even better. If a Zerg is going to take a 3rd base, he'll have alot of drones at the nat in preparation for the transfer.
If the Zerg disengages the Zealots to chase your probe(s), send the Zealots to scout. As a Protoss, Zerg can be sneaky so it is necessary to get that scout and do it soon.
While you are being tenacious in your scouting, get the Corsair to the Zerg base as quickly as you can in case you fail in all attempts to scout.
If you just sit in your base and decide to just wait for the corsair to make a decision, you are taking a big risk and sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't.
EPT
