EPTEdit- Besides Cloud?
[Q] PvZ defending fast hydra push - Page 4
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Psyonic_Reaver
United States4343 Posts
Edit- Besides Cloud? | ||
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Racenilatr
United States2756 Posts
The zerg will probably try to get speedlings to deny your scout to put up the hydra den(can't be delayed;otherwise it throws off timing) Timing is that sair will be able to get to base and u can put up defenses in time against 2 hatch muta(maybe) and against any 3 hatch builds. You will probably suspect 3 hatch hydra just by process of elimination from what the Zerg CAN and CANT do | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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Wala.Revolution
7584 Posts
Lux went 9pool speed and denied scouting, toss went for sairs then a robo at nat; toss lost because he was unprepared for the hydra push as the sair was halfway to zerg base when hydras were advancing. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
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NonY
8751 Posts
![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/7253.jpg) compare it to jaedong vs arew ![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/7254.jpg) the only difference is that 1 goon + 2 zealot can start bullying the zerglings, and can scout right outside the protoss base, so the corsair doesn't actually have to fly to the mineral-only. it can go straight to the middle of the map. when the hydras are seen, the cannon in the main is canceled, and 2 cannons are started out front. probes are pulled, archives is started. the huge blob of probe zealot goon simply get in the way of the hydras so they cant run straight up to a cannon and snipe it. lots of probes will die, it's going to be really scrappy, but that's fine. a protoss who does the same build vs 9pool speed as he does vs 12hatch (except for the timing of the nexus and first cannon, of course) is like a protoss who double expands vs a terran as soon as he sees siege mode. it's a greedy risk. the terran could be doing a siege-first 2fact or he could be going dropship. but you double expand. getting a corsair slower than i do in that replay, or making less than 4 cannons, or not doing this little 4 zealot rush, is just taking a risk like that. | ||
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Stimpacked
Philippines368 Posts
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On January 26 2009 13:52 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: We're still missing the point here. It's a gamble every time you 2 hatch hydra all-in. If it was unstoppable, why wouldn't every zerg do this every game? Who said it's unstoppable? Of course it's a gamble, and we are discussing the best way to defend verses it. | ||
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Shauni
4077 Posts
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NonY
8751 Posts
there is no timing to learn here. there is no game sense needed. no tricky scouting. i posted a replay with a build order that can be copied exactly along with instructions on what to do when the corsair scouts. everyone should be thinking "wow, now i'll no longer die to 2hat hydra or 2hat muta thanks to this simple build that i can mindlessly copy" and if the zerg macros, you aren't behind. if you have been playing greedily against 9pool speed macro zergs, then you've had a free advantage during midgame all along. your zealot/archon timing attack should be amazing. you'll have to learn to play midgame | ||
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Racenilatr
United States2756 Posts
On January 26 2009 19:05 Liquid`NonY wrote: the conclusion that is supposed to be drawn from watching those two replays is that rushing to corsair beats 2hat hydra builds. and obviously beats 2hat muta builds as well there is no timing to learn here. there is no game sense needed. no tricky scouting. i posted a replay with a build order that can be copied exactly along with instructions on what to do when the corsair scouts. everyone should be thinking "wow, now i'll no longer die to 2hat hydra or 2hat muta thanks to this simple build that i can mindlessly copy" and if the zerg macros, you aren't behind. if you have been playing greedily against 9pool speed macro zergs, then you've had a free advantage during midgame all along. your zealot/archon timing attack should be amazing. you'll have to learn to play midgame haha that just about settles it because Nony>everyone else :D | ||
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bitchaRd[raGe]
Russian Federation376 Posts
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Shauni
4077 Posts
On January 26 2009 19:05 Liquid`NonY wrote: the conclusion that is supposed to be drawn from watching those two replays is that rushing to corsair beats 2hat hydra builds. and obviously beats 2hat muta builds as well there is no timing to learn here. there is no game sense needed. no tricky scouting. i posted a replay with a build order that can be copied exactly along with instructions on what to do when the corsair scouts. everyone should be thinking "wow, now i'll no longer die to 2hat hydra or 2hat muta thanks to this simple build that i can mindlessly copy" and if the zerg macros, you aren't behind. if you have been playing greedily against 9pool speed macro zergs, then you've had a free advantage during midgame all along. your zealot/archon timing attack should be amazing. you'll have to learn to play midgame I watched the replays carefully, and I also watched some of my replays against 2 hatch hydra. Some of them involved zergs attacking before the 6 minute mark. In that case, you'll barely have time to start warping cannons even with the early sair build. So I don't understand how there can be no timing window or game sense needed to do this well (or rather, to understand when the zerg will be able to attack, with how many hydras and what his drone count will be). Arew would (most likely) have died against the hydras even if his sair was out 20 seconds earlier. But yeah, it's a good build against 9pool speedlings. I'll try this and see if it helps against 2 hatch hydras more than my early gate 3 zealot attack build. | ||
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Malongo
Chile3479 Posts
On January 26 2009 19:05 Liquid`NonY wrote: the conclusion that is supposed to be drawn from watching those two replays is that rushing to corsair beats 2hat hydra builds. and obviously beats 2hat muta builds as well there is no timing to learn here. there is no game sense needed. no tricky scouting. i posted a replay with a build order that can be copied exactly along with instructions on what to do when the corsair scouts. everyone should be thinking "wow, now i'll no longer die to 2hat hydra or 2hat muta thanks to this simple build that i can mindlessly copy" and if the zerg macros, you aren't behind. if you have been playing greedily against 9pool speed macro zergs, then you've had a free advantage during midgame all along. your zealot/archon timing attack should be amazing. you'll have to learn to play midgame thank you nony. | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On January 26 2009 20:59 Shauni wrote: I watched the replays carefully, and I also watched some of my replays against 2 hatch hydra. Some of them involved zergs attacking before the 6 minute mark. In that case, you'll barely have time to start warping cannons even with the early sair build. So I don't understand how there can be no timing window or game sense needed to do this well (or rather, to understand when the zerg will be able to attack, with how many hydras and what his drone count will be). Arew would (most likely) have died against the hydras even if his sair was out 20 seconds earlier. But yeah, it's a good build against 9pool speedlings. I'll try this and see if it helps against 2 hatch hydras more than my early gate 3 zealot attack build. Chances are you are either not harassing like Nony suggested (2 lot & 1 goon) making it easier for the zerg to freely tech, or you just never scouted properly, which is still a must. Even though Nony suggested the easy alternative to tricky scouting, note that did not imply to initially have sloppy scouting. The entire early game PvZ when you are going for the FE build is excellent scouting. Ideally keeping your probe alive until your expo is up would be great, then you can gauge whether you even need the corsair, but anyway. You still want to keep the first probe alive AS LONG AS POSSIBLE, since typically a Zerg that wants to go for this 2 hatch hydra build may or may not go for the ling speed. If they don't it is then easier to keep your scouting probe alive. What's more important is to make sure you are keeping track of the drone count on gas. If they bring it down to one typically they are going for the ling speed or trying to throw you off, but take it as though they are not going for the quick hydra (if they choose to they will be down gas and I would guess their upgrades will be later). Ensuring that your probe stays alive is a great incentive for the zerg to not go for the hydra build so early. If you have a rep to post so we can see what you are talking about that would help  | ||
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olabaz
United States298 Posts
On January 26 2009 19:05 Liquid`NonY wrote: the conclusion that is supposed to be drawn from watching those two replays is that rushing to corsair beats 2hat hydra builds. and obviously beats 2hat muta builds as well there is no timing to learn here. there is no game sense needed. no tricky scouting. i posted a replay with a build order that can be copied exactly along with instructions on what to do when the corsair scouts. everyone should be thinking "wow, now i'll no longer die to 2hat hydra or 2hat muta thanks to this simple build that i can mindlessly copy" and if the zerg macros, you aren't behind. if you have been playing greedily against 9pool speed macro zergs, then you've had a free advantage during midgame all along. your zealot/archon timing attack should be amazing. you'll have to learn to play midgame Question, can I just do the corsair rush build every time to be safe or is there a downside to it if they do another build? | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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olabaz
United States298 Posts
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