[Q] PvZ defending fast hydra push

On January 25 2009 03:53 Cloud wrote:
Get your corsair asap and keep making zeals, you may need to cut probes, but you want your sair to be out in record time.

On January 25 2009 04:15 Cloud wrote:
Thats why you make your sair faster and produce nonstop zeals.

On January 25 2009 04:15 Cloud wrote:
Thats why you make your sair faster and produce nonstop zeals.

On January 25 2009 10:55 OneOther wrote:

No, this is wrong. You never get your corsair on time to prepare for a 2 hatch hydra all-in, if the Zerg is half-decent. It doesn't matter how much you rush the tech or cut probes. Add a third cannon, then it's up to the experience and game sense, really. And yeah, keep making those zealots because zealots+probes really help you survive. Do everything you can to get as much information as possible. Like someone said above, hide a probe somewhere that Overlords will not be flying across. Try to see when he gets the third. Of course scouting his main would be ideal, but that rarely happens, but even if you scout his natural, you can somewhat tell what he's doing by looking at the drone count.

On January 25 2009 12:02 Cloud wrote:


You already need to have a 3rd cannon if you want to survive speedlings, the hiding probe is guarantee of absolutely nothing if he has zerglings at his choke. The only way you can be sure of what the zerg is doing is with a corsair.

On January 25 2009 12:37 Cloud wrote:
So what are you saying? That he should play completely standard after being denied from scouting? Just because its apparently impossible to have a corsair out before he decides to break your base, or that the matchup is imbalanced because you just cant simply scout it?..without sick timing senses.

On January 25 2009 12:37 Cloud wrote:
So what are you saying? That he should play completely standard after being denied from scouting? Just because its apparently impossible to have a corsair out before he decides to break your base, or that the matchup is imbalanced because you just cant simply scout it?..without sick timing senses.

On January 25 2009 13:14 NovaTheFeared wrote:


I think what he's saying is:

Sair can't save you

The timing of the rush gets to the front before the Sair scouts that something is up. Your sair will let you see he's 2 hatch hydra just in time to get a faceload of hydra/ling.

On January 25 2009 13:16 Cloud wrote:
Right, and when considering the other million possibilities that can follow speedlings?

Now, i dont really know if any of the guys in the vods got their sairs fast enough, but theres a reason i also suggested making constant zeals.

On January 25 2009 13:40 OneOther wrote:

...I am saying your advice of "get a Corsair faster" is completely wrong, and that he needs to try whatever he can to sense what the Zerg is doing. Hiding an extra probe, sending out 3/4 zealots, or anything you can think of. And yes, sometimes, you need to just guess and hope for the best. Why do you think Protoss players lose to Hydra break if he can get a Corsair out on time? That makes no sense.



Hahaha I didn't even catch the links first. Thanks for the examples!

On January 25 2009 13:46 OneOther wrote:

Aren't you kind of contradicting yourself? You tell him to get a faster Corsair even if it means cutting probes, then you also tell him to get constant Zealots? You do realize getting constant zealots slows your tech down. Anyhow, zealots are pretty much useless verses Hydras if you don't have enough cannons in the first place. This isn't PvZ in an ideal world. You can't pump zealots, control economy, and tech fast all at the same time.

On January 25 2009 13:48 Cloud wrote:
So your advice is to ditch the corsair completely and play a guessing game?, despite the huge possibility that the zerg isnt going for 2 hatch hydra? Considering that the possibility of losing all of your zeals when you dont know the zergs ling count is very serious if he is going for an all in, they arent a very reliable source of info. The hidden scouting probe doesnt work most of the times, what kind of zerg will leave every single zergling he has outside your nat?

On January 25 2009 03:53 Cloud wrote:
Get your corsair asap and keep making zeals, you may need to cut probes, but you want your sair to be out in record time.

On January 25 2009 04:15 Cloud wrote:
Thats why you make your sair faster and produce nonstop zeals.

On January 25 2009 04:15 Cloud wrote:
Thats why you make your sair faster and produce nonstop zeals.

On January 25 2009 13:55 Cloud wrote:
What are you trying to argue here? Making constant zeals from 1 gateway and speeding up your tech is impossible even if you cut probes? Arent you a protoss player?

And yes, you said exactly that, you quoted my advice on getting a fast corsair and you said that I was wrong that it would never be in time, anybody would understand that as a "do NOT get corsair" maybe it wasnt your intention but thats what your post said.

On January 25 2009 14:08 Cloud wrote:
Like what? Sneaking probes? Totally luck dependant, wont work at all vs a zerg who is expecting it. Using zealots to force him to show his hand? If he made a little too many zerglings it can backfire really bad. Corsair is the only failsafe way, and theres already 1 poster that says it can come in time.

Constant zeals delays your tech? are you serious? its 100 minerals every 30 seconds or so, with your nat already taken. Not even in 1 base play constant zeals from 1 gateway delays your tech, else it would suck.

On January 25 2009 14:17 malongo wrote:
Id like to read those other things to do to stop an hidra break since i cant figure anything else. You cant reach to the zerg base with 3 zeals because any half smart zerg will retreat his 6 lings and make 4 more at home. Sneaking a probe is not an option normally and worst than that one early probe somewhere hiding hurts your fe. I say just play safer: 3 cannons before stargate, 1 more before sair keep your zeals around your base and be ready to warp cannons as a madman when the sair is crossing the map. And one more thing i noted in the vods: dont take your 2 gas so early wait until the sair scouts the zerg main.

On January 25 2009 13:49 malongo wrote:

I think most of these are really bad examples:
- July vs Bisu @blue storm: one missplaced cannon, corsair sees the shit in front of him bisu warps 1 cannon for a grand total of 4
- Luxury vs Best @andromeda: Best fucked is timing greatly 3 cannons before nexus or gate is too late (you can see that the corsair comes in at least 30 seconds later)
- Jaedong vs Lucifer @medusa: i shouldnt even comment this, jaedong went hatch/pool and never paid for ling speed, again lucifer put his 3 cannon in the front.
- Savior vs Bisu @blue storm: bad cannon placement, bisu has 4 cannons to defend but 2 never shot until the hidra wave was too high.

My humble opinion: corsair has the timing to see it coming in the middle of the map giving you the time to warp a 5 cannon and normally what ive seen lately is that progamers (best, tazza) put the 4 cannon when sair is 3/4 so when sair scouts they have time to cancel it if needed. So best defence: 2 cannons before nexus, one more after core, 4 cannon at 3/4 sair and 2 more if the sair checks something middleway to the zerg base. High priority to cannon line formation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwvCoHCQ8Z0&eurl=http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9989_Bisu_vs_July/vod

On January 25 2009 14:34 Cloud wrote:
Yes, i understand that haji, only after he blatantly clarified it however. Still, a fast corsair is i believe the best way, the constant zeals should delay the zergs decision to attack you. Granting you more time for the corsair to come out.

You never get your corsair on time to prepare for a 2 hatch hydra all-in, if the Zerg is half-decent. It doesn't matter how much you rush the tech or cut probes. Add a third cannon, then it's up to the experience and game sense, really. And yeah, keep making those zealots because zealots+probes really help you survive. Do everything you can to get as much information as possible. Like someone said above, hide a probe somewhere that Overlords will not be flying across. Try to see when he gets the third. Of course scouting his main would be ideal, but that rarely happens, but even if you scout his natural, you can somewhat tell what he's doing by looking at the drone count.

On January 25 2009 10:55 OneOther wrote:

No, this is wrong.

On January 25 2009 14:31 Malinor wrote:
The main argument has been posted before: If corsairs would be able to scout this in time, there would be no point to use 2hatch hydra. No protoss would ever lose to it.

On January 25 2009 14:47 Cloud wrote:


Yep, thats what i mean.

On January 25 2009 14:52 Cloud wrote:
Lol ok, im getting a lot of shit here, but just for closing, Starbrit, its not the hydra rush that is countered. ITS THE DENIED SCOUTING DUE TO SPEEDLINGS THAT FORCES YOU TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Have fun sneaking probes instead of figuring out how to cut probes and get your sair in time.

Oh and oneother, i only left that part from your post, since thats exactly the part that you left out when you quoted yourself.

On January 25 2009 14:31 Malinor wrote:


Kinda funny, you look at these games and take them as evidence that the corsair would be able to see what is comming given the right timing. When I watch these games I think it becomes obvious that the corsair won't save you.
Best vs Luxury in example: You say his timing is fucked because of 3 cannons before Nexus. But put yourself in Bests position: He scouts 9pool+speed+10lings... the 3rd cannon is basically forced, he has to fear an ling all-in/ run-by at this stage. 2 cannons is not gonna cut it if Luxury shows up with like 16 speedlings at his frontdoor.
When you talk about "bad cannon-placement" you need to realize that especially the first cannons are not placed against hydras but against lings... warping all your cannons in front of your buildings is not really an option since zerglings would easily surround them. you would need more cannons to start with which would delay your corsair again.

The main argument has been posted before: If corsairs would be able to scout this in time, there would be no point to use 2hatch hydra. No protoss would ever lose to it.

On January 25 2009 18:02 Liquid`NonY wrote:
a corsair can finish building before 5:35 and, scouting along the ground path between the two players, can see a 9pool speed --> 2hatch hydra bust build in time to block it. 2 cannons can start building immediately, and the protoss will have 1goon, 3 zealot, 12 probes out front, that can hold until those cannons finish.

the failure vods that were posted can be explained:
bisu and best both do a greedier build and so the corsair is too late. the hydras walk right up to the cannons without any wall of probe/zealot/goon to stop them.
tempest does a build with really late scouting, so jaedong is able to deny scouting without getting ling speed, and so his hydra attack is faster.

the bisu vs july game @ medusa with the successful defense is an example of a compromised protoss build. bisu does not build a 2nd assimilator, he does not build a citadel, he does not get +1 weapons, he does not build probes non-stop. he delays all of those things so that he can make zealots, cannons, and a fast corsair. it's not the fastest corsair possible, but his variation with more cannons and slower tech works as well.

i think the corsair rush is good, and what bisu did can also work, but i wanted to check out rushing to 4 zealots, and it seems promising. i havent done it in practice at all, but from watching a replay of the timing, it seems that the 4 zealots get on offense fast enough that they can discover the zerg's build beyond speedlings. even if hydra/ling owns them, such a battle would take place on the zerg's side of the map, so protoss has time to prepare for the counterattack. it should work similarly against 2hatch muta. a macro zerg will also be scouted, which allows the protoss to start making probes non-stop, or adjust in whatever other way they want to, and it forces the zerg to make lings when they need to make drones. the only problematic build, i think, is mass lings. the zealots will get eaten up and sufficient defense might not be possible in time for the huge counterattack. but mass lings is the worst build against a normal toss build and it's uncommon

On January 26 2009 13:52 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
We're still missing the point here. It's a gamble every time you 2 hatch hydra all-in. If it was unstoppable, why wouldn't every zerg do this every game?

On January 26 2009 19:05 Liquid`NonY wrote:
the conclusion that is supposed to be drawn from watching those two replays is that rushing to corsair beats 2hat hydra builds. and obviously beats 2hat muta builds as well

there is no timing to learn here. there is no game sense needed. no tricky scouting. i posted a replay with a build order that can be copied exactly along with instructions on what to do when the corsair scouts.

everyone should be thinking "wow, now i'll no longer die to 2hat hydra or 2hat muta thanks to this simple build that i can mindlessly copy"

and if the zerg macros, you aren't behind. if you have been playing greedily against 9pool speed macro zergs, then you've had a free advantage during midgame all along. your zealot/archon timing attack should be amazing. you'll have to learn to play midgame

On January 26 2009 19:05 Liquid`NonY wrote:
the conclusion that is supposed to be drawn from watching those two replays is that rushing to corsair beats 2hat hydra builds. and obviously beats 2hat muta builds as well

there is no timing to learn here. there is no game sense needed. no tricky scouting. i posted a replay with a build order that can be copied exactly along with instructions on what to do when the corsair scouts.

everyone should be thinking "wow, now i'll no longer die to 2hat hydra or 2hat muta thanks to this simple build that i can mindlessly copy"

and if the zerg macros, you aren't behind. if you have been playing greedily against 9pool speed macro zergs, then you've had a free advantage during midgame all along. your zealot/archon timing attack should be amazing. you'll have to learn to play midgame

On January 26 2009 19:05 Liquid`NonY wrote:
the conclusion that is supposed to be drawn from watching those two replays is that rushing to corsair beats 2hat hydra builds. and obviously beats 2hat muta builds as well

there is no timing to learn here. there is no game sense needed. no tricky scouting. i posted a replay with a build order that can be copied exactly along with instructions on what to do when the corsair scouts.

everyone should be thinking "wow, now i'll no longer die to 2hat hydra or 2hat muta thanks to this simple build that i can mindlessly copy"

and if the zerg macros, you aren't behind. if you have been playing greedily against 9pool speed macro zergs, then you've had a free advantage during midgame all along. your zealot/archon timing attack should be amazing. you'll have to learn to play midgame

On January 26 2009 20:59 Shauni wrote:


I watched the replays carefully, and I also watched some of my replays against 2 hatch hydra. Some of them involved zergs attacking before the 6 minute mark. In that case, you'll barely have time to start warping cannons even with the early sair build. So I don't understand how there can be no timing window or game sense needed to do this well (or rather, to understand when the zerg will be able to attack, with how many hydras and what his drone count will be). Arew would (most likely) have died against the hydras even if his sair was out 20 seconds earlier. But yeah, it's a good build against 9pool speedlings. I'll try this and see if it helps against 2 hatch hydras more than my early gate 3 zealot attack build.

On January 26 2009 19:05 Liquid`NonY wrote:
the conclusion that is supposed to be drawn from watching those two replays is that rushing to corsair beats 2hat hydra builds. and obviously beats 2hat muta builds as well

there is no timing to learn here. there is no game sense needed. no tricky scouting. i posted a replay with a build order that can be copied exactly along with instructions on what to do when the corsair scouts.

everyone should be thinking "wow, now i'll no longer die to 2hat hydra or 2hat muta thanks to this simple build that i can mindlessly copy"

and if the zerg macros, you aren't behind. if you have been playing greedily against 9pool speed macro zergs, then you've had a free advantage during midgame all along. your zealot/archon timing attack should be amazing. you'll have to learn to play midgame