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[Q] PvZ defending fast hydra push

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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bitchaRd[raGe]
Profile Joined August 2008
Russian Federation376 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-24 17:18:59
January 24 2009 17:15 GMT
#1
What do you usually do as protoss when you FE and zerg goes 9 pool+speed, deniying your scout and then 2 hatch hydra?
Cause since my scouting probe killed and zerg has speedlings, i cannot see what he does, and if i go mass cannons in my nat and zerg doesn't go fast hydra push, then i am way too far behind him.

So, what do you think, what's the best vs this?
SKT1!
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
January 24 2009 17:17 GMT
#2
Mass cannons. There isn't really much else you can do at that early of a timing.
Azrael1111
Profile Joined July 2008
United States550 Posts
January 24 2009 17:21 GMT
#3
Ya, not much you can really do if he is denying scout with speedlings. Add cannons and play it safe. His economy is not the best after 9pool, but he trades off that you DO need to add more cannons or risk losing to an all-in.
petzergling
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
538 Posts
January 24 2009 17:39 GMT
#4
After a 9 pool speed its pretty standard to put down a 3rd cannon at your sim city after you start your tech just to be safe from all-in openings. It's really just a matter of game sense and scouting to defend anything because you have to predict what your opponent is going to do. Cannons in mineral lines for anti 2 hatch muta or a 4th cannon in front in fear of a hydra bust, remember also in defending these attacks you're going to have a very small handful of units and probes, so use them wisely as most of the people who only do ZvP all in builds aren't that great of players.
Mod Edit: Don't bold your entire post
Repertoire
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada92 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-24 17:49:56
January 24 2009 17:41 GMT
#5
Send another scouting probe to a random area on the map, so when your first probe dies you can scout for a 3rd expansion or get lucky and scout his main.

You can also click on the mineral patch with the second probe when you have vision with the first scouting probe. This allows the second probe to bypass the ramp and get another scout in.
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
January 24 2009 18:15 GMT
#6
On January 25 2009 02:41 Snacks wrote:
Send another scouting probe to a random area on the map, so when your first probe dies you can scout for a 3rd expansion or get lucky and scout his main.

You can also click on the mineral patch with the second probe when you have vision with the first scouting probe. This allows the second probe to bypass the ramp and get another scout in.



Yeah I think the best answer is to get another scout in, even though it's hard. You send another probe to hide somewhere on the map as soon as your first one is killed. Wait for him to get his lings outside your base, and then a bit later send the scout to his base or look for a third. You should have some time to scout before his lings get there.

If he manages to completely deny scouting, you may have to add cannons.
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
January 24 2009 18:53 GMT
#7
Get your corsair asap and keep making zeals, you may need to cut probes, but you want your sair to be out in record time.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
Malongo
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Chile3472 Posts
January 24 2009 19:05 GMT
#8
Sair timing is the key, but i also noted that some Protoss like to warp a 4 canon at the exact timing (idk it i guess it is 3/4 sair) so they get time to cancel it as the sair cross the map. Cannon position is important since they have to be in a line+ protected to get them all firing.
Help me! im still improving my English. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. M. G.
bitchaRd[raGe]
Profile Joined August 2008
Russian Federation376 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-24 19:14:00
January 24 2009 19:13 GMT
#9
When sair is our usually you are almost dead if you did nothing to defend hydra push
Some zergs make early sunk and even put 2 lings into ramp so you can't sneak into his main. Scouting his 3rd may work (if he didn't get 3rd means he is all-in hyda or muta) but on some huge maps you can't scout all expansions, and zerg can expand everywhere. So, it seems that 2nd hiding probe and mineral walk is the only ultimate solution, though it hasn't ultimate solutions
SKT1!
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
January 24 2009 19:15 GMT
#10
Thats why you make your sair faster and produce nonstop zeals.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
Breavman
Profile Joined September 2004
Sweden598 Posts
January 24 2009 19:24 GMT
#11
One thing to do is to push out with your first few zealots and engage the lings preventing scouting. At the same time you can try to sneak by a probe. If he has a lot of lings, retreat asap. He probably can't have the fast hydras as well as many lings. If he is making hydra, you might encounter the first group on their way to your base. Run home, add cannons and be prepared to fight. It gives you a few more seconds to prepare this way.
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
January 24 2009 19:59 GMT
#12
Also on low levels I've noticed that in case of hydra or ling all-in the zerg will be too anxious to check your cannon numbers sacrificing a ling or getting hits on ovi by cannons. On the contrary if he goes for eco and tech his ovi will go to scout the main and lings primary goal will be to prevent scouting.
imperfect
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Canada1652 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-24 23:39:30
January 24 2009 23:38 GMT
#13
On January 25 2009 03:53 Cloud wrote:
Get your corsair asap and keep making zeals, you may need to cut probes, but you want your sair to be out in record time.


On January 25 2009 04:15 Cloud wrote:
Thats why you make your sair faster and produce nonstop zeals.



yeah i think this is the best answer, although the hidden probe works sometimes.

you have to play around with your overall core timing to get the sair in, or else just build cannons.

better safe than dead!
blind bisu free and anytime fanboy.
Shado.
Profile Joined February 2008
United States187 Posts
January 25 2009 01:50 GMT
#14
When in doubt, add cannons...

It is almost impossible to completely deny scouting without having at least 10-12 speedlings. What most protoss do is try to sneak one probe out, which attracts the attention of the lings, then send either a second scout out after most of the lings are chasing the initial scout.

You can also send a zlot out to scout, they have a lot more life, and can usually make it far enough to see if zerg has gone all in.

You can also engage the lings with a 2-3zlots and 2-3 probes and force him to reveal his army composition.

Either way, you need to do something to scout zerg. Cutting probes for an early sair is really risky. By then it could be too late.
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
January 25 2009 01:55 GMT
#15
On January 25 2009 04:15 Cloud wrote:
Thats why you make your sair faster and produce nonstop zeals.

No, this is wrong. You never get your corsair on time to prepare for a 2 hatch hydra all-in, if the Zerg is half-decent. It doesn't matter how much you rush the tech or cut probes. Add a third cannon, then it's up to the experience and game sense, really. And yeah, keep making those zealots because zealots+probes really help you survive. Do everything you can to get as much information as possible. Like someone said above, hide a probe somewhere that Overlords will not be flying across. Try to see when he gets the third. Of course scouting his main would be ideal, but that rarely happens, but even if you scout his natural, you can somewhat tell what he's doing by looking at the drone count.
meegrean
Profile Joined May 2008
Thailand7699 Posts
January 25 2009 02:01 GMT
#16
Hide a second probe at a hidden location and scout with that one about 30 seconds after your first scout probe dies. If that probe dies too, add cannons
Brood War loyalist
Knickknack
Profile Joined February 2004
United States1187 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-25 05:11:14
January 25 2009 02:59 GMT
#17
How about bringing some real numbers and timing to this discussion...
I know, a novel idea.
Also might want to consider 3hatch hydra as that is pretty deadly as well.

I'll give Jaedong 2hatch hydra vs arew @ WCG bluestorm
overpool, 8gas, 10 3x lings, speed, 2lings, expo,
13 drones, 15den, drones, 17speed +lord, 23range+ovie
6 hydras by 5:00
8ling/11+hydra speed/range by 6:00
JD attacked arew at 6:20 with 8ling/9hydra

Looking at this rep, pushing out with 3lots at 5min seems to be pretty promising. 8 spread out speedlings vs 3zealot, so you should be able to see what the z is up to ~5:30 which is easily enough time to react with loads of cannons. How should zerg react to this? Make more lings while hiding the hydra and try to kill lots before they scout much? So send a probe out after the lots? As said by others the sair timing to scout and react to 2hat hydra seems pretty iffy...though i did not work out the timings.
| www.ArtofProtoss.vze.com |
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
January 25 2009 03:02 GMT
#18
On January 25 2009 10:55 OneOther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2009 04:15 Cloud wrote:
Thats why you make your sair faster and produce nonstop zeals.

No, this is wrong. You never get your corsair on time to prepare for a 2 hatch hydra all-in, if the Zerg is half-decent. It doesn't matter how much you rush the tech or cut probes. Add a third cannon, then it's up to the experience and game sense, really. And yeah, keep making those zealots because zealots+probes really help you survive. Do everything you can to get as much information as possible. Like someone said above, hide a probe somewhere that Overlords will not be flying across. Try to see when he gets the third. Of course scouting his main would be ideal, but that rarely happens, but even if you scout his natural, you can somewhat tell what he's doing by looking at the drone count.


You already need to have a 3rd cannon if you want to survive speedlings, the hiding probe is guarantee of absolutely nothing if he has zerglings at his choke. The only way you can be sure of what the zerg is doing is with a corsair.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-25 03:28:44
January 25 2009 03:26 GMT
#19
On January 25 2009 12:02 Cloud wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2009 10:55 OneOther wrote:
On January 25 2009 04:15 Cloud wrote:
Thats why you make your sair faster and produce nonstop zeals.

No, this is wrong. You never get your corsair on time to prepare for a 2 hatch hydra all-in, if the Zerg is half-decent. It doesn't matter how much you rush the tech or cut probes. Add a third cannon, then it's up to the experience and game sense, really. And yeah, keep making those zealots because zealots+probes really help you survive. Do everything you can to get as much information as possible. Like someone said above, hide a probe somewhere that Overlords will not be flying across. Try to see when he gets the third. Of course scouting his main would be ideal, but that rarely happens, but even if you scout his natural, you can somewhat tell what he's doing by looking at the drone count.


You already need to have a 3rd cannon if you want to survive speedlings, the hiding probe is guarantee of absolutely nothing if he has zerglings at his choke. The only way you can be sure of what the zerg is doing is with a corsair.

Obviously? My point is you don't get a Corsair on time to get sufficient defense for a hydra break. Hydra break is aimed to come right before/right as Corsair pops out. Everyone knows Corsair is the best scouting method in PvZ, it's just you don't get it on time so you have to resort to other things.

In an ideal world, we Protoss players would be able to get the sair on time to defend verses any kind of all-in attack
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-25 03:40:23
January 25 2009 03:37 GMT
#20
So what are you saying? That he should play completely standard after being denied from scouting? Just because its apparently impossible to have a corsair out before he decides to break your base, or that the matchup is imbalanced because you just cant simply scout it?..without sick timing senses.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
NovaTheFeared
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States7222 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-25 04:14:59
January 25 2009 04:14 GMT
#21
On January 25 2009 12:37 Cloud wrote:
So what are you saying? That he should play completely standard after being denied from scouting? Just because its apparently impossible to have a corsair out before he decides to break your base, or that the matchup is imbalanced because you just cant simply scout it?..without sick timing senses.


I think what he's saying is:

Sair can't save you

The timing of the rush gets to the front before the Sair scouts that something is up. Your sair will let you see he's 2 hatch hydra just in time to get a faceload of hydra/ling.
日本語が分かりますか
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-25 04:18:42
January 25 2009 04:16 GMT
#22
Right, and when considering the other million possibilities that can follow speedlings?

Now, i dont really know if any of the guys in the vods got their sairs fast enough, but theres a reason i also suggested making constant zeals.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-25 04:42:44
January 25 2009 04:40 GMT
#23
On January 25 2009 12:37 Cloud wrote:
So what are you saying? That he should play completely standard after being denied from scouting? Just because its apparently impossible to have a corsair out before he decides to break your base, or that the matchup is imbalanced because you just cant simply scout it?..without sick timing senses.

...I am saying your advice of "get a Corsair faster" is completely wrong, and that he needs to try whatever he can to sense what the Zerg is doing. Hiding an extra probe, sending out 3/4 zealots, or anything you can think of. And yes, sometimes, you need to just guess and hope for the best. Why do you think Protoss players lose to Hydra break if he can get a Corsair out on time? That makes no sense.

On January 25 2009 13:14 NovaTheFeared wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2009 12:37 Cloud wrote:
So what are you saying? That he should play completely standard after being denied from scouting? Just because its apparently impossible to have a corsair out before he decides to break your base, or that the matchup is imbalanced because you just cant simply scout it?..without sick timing senses.


I think what he's saying is:

Sair can't save you

The timing of the rush gets to the front before the Sair scouts that something is up. Your sair will let you see he's 2 hatch hydra just in time to get a faceload of hydra/ling.


Hahaha I didn't even catch the links first. Thanks for the examples!
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
January 25 2009 04:46 GMT
#24
On January 25 2009 13:16 Cloud wrote:
Right, and when considering the other million possibilities that can follow speedlings?

Now, i dont really know if any of the guys in the vods got their sairs fast enough, but theres a reason i also suggested making constant zeals.

Aren't you kind of contradicting yourself? You tell him to get a faster Corsair even if it means cutting probes, then you also tell him to get constant Zealots? You do realize getting constant zealots slows your tech down. Anyhow, zealots are pretty much useless verses Hydras if you don't have enough cannons in the first place. This isn't PvZ in an ideal world. You can't pump zealots, control economy, and tech fast all at the same time.
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
January 25 2009 04:48 GMT
#25
So your advice is to ditch the corsair completely and play a guessing game?, despite the huge possibility that the zerg isnt going for 2 hatch hydra? Considering that the possibility of losing all of your zeals when you dont know the zergs ling count is very serious if he is going for an all in, they arent a very reliable source of info. The hidden scouting probe doesnt work most of the times, what kind of zerg will leave every single zergling he has outside your nat?
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
Malongo
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Chile3472 Posts
January 25 2009 04:49 GMT
#26
On January 25 2009 13:40 OneOther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2009 12:37 Cloud wrote:
So what are you saying? That he should play completely standard after being denied from scouting? Just because its apparently impossible to have a corsair out before he decides to break your base, or that the matchup is imbalanced because you just cant simply scout it?..without sick timing senses.

...I am saying your advice of "get a Corsair faster" is completely wrong, and that he needs to try whatever he can to sense what the Zerg is doing. Hiding an extra probe, sending out 3/4 zealots, or anything you can think of. And yes, sometimes, you need to just guess and hope for the best. Why do you think Protoss players lose to Hydra break if he can get a Corsair out on time? That makes no sense.

Show nested quote +
On January 25 2009 13:14 NovaTheFeared wrote:
On January 25 2009 12:37 Cloud wrote:
So what are you saying? That he should play completely standard after being denied from scouting? Just because its apparently impossible to have a corsair out before he decides to break your base, or that the matchup is imbalanced because you just cant simply scout it?..without sick timing senses.


I think what he's saying is:

Sair can't save you

The timing of the rush gets to the front before the Sair scouts that something is up. Your sair will let you see he's 2 hatch hydra just in time to get a faceload of hydra/ling.


Hahaha I didn't even catch the links first. Thanks for the examples!

I think most of these are really bad examples:
- July vs Bisu @blue storm: one missplaced cannon, corsair sees the shit in front of him bisu warps 1 cannon for a grand total of 4
- Luxury vs Best @andromeda: Best fucked is timing greatly 3 cannons before nexus or gate is too late (you can see that the corsair comes in at least 30 seconds later)
- Jaedong vs Lucifer @medusa: i shouldnt even comment this, jaedong went hatch/pool and never paid for ling speed, again lucifer put his 3 cannon in the front.
- Savior vs Bisu @blue storm: bad cannon placement, bisu has 4 cannons to defend but 2 never shot until the hidra wave was too high.

My humble opinion: corsair has the timing to see it coming in the middle of the map giving you the time to warp a 5 cannon and normally what ive seen lately is that progamers (best, tazza) put the 4 cannon when sair is 3/4 so when sair scouts they have time to cancel it if needed. So best defence: 2 cannons before nexus, one more after core, 4 cannon at 3/4 sair and 2 more if the sair checks something middleway to the zerg base. High priority to cannon line formation.



Help me! im still improving my English. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. M. G.
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-25 04:52:46
January 25 2009 04:50 GMT
#27
On January 25 2009 13:46 OneOther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2009 13:16 Cloud wrote:
Right, and when considering the other million possibilities that can follow speedlings?

Now, i dont really know if any of the guys in the vods got their sairs fast enough, but theres a reason i also suggested making constant zeals.

Aren't you kind of contradicting yourself? You tell him to get a faster Corsair even if it means cutting probes, then you also tell him to get constant Zealots? You do realize getting constant zealots slows your tech down. Anyhow, zealots are pretty much useless verses Hydras if you don't have enough cannons in the first place. This isn't PvZ in an ideal world. You can't pump zealots, control economy, and tech fast all at the same time.


Thats where the cutting probes part comes in, as you said, you cant have an ideal game so you must sacrifice something. If he didnt go for an all in, the corsair will tell you if he didnt get enough zerglings and you can then use those zeals to apply pressure on the zerg and regain the econ equality. If he did make enough lings to stop your zeals, chances are that you are already equal.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-25 04:54:23
January 25 2009 04:52 GMT
#28
On January 25 2009 13:48 Cloud wrote:
So your advice is to ditch the corsair completely and play a guessing game?, despite the huge possibility that the zerg isnt going for 2 hatch hydra? Considering that the possibility of losing all of your zeals when you dont know the zergs ling count is very serious if he is going for an all in, they arent a very reliable source of info. The hidden scouting probe doesnt work most of the times, what kind of zerg will leave every single zergling he has outside your nat?

No, Cloud, that's nowhere close to what I was saying.
On January 25 2009 03:53 Cloud wrote:
Get your corsair asap and keep making zeals, you may need to cut probes, but you want your sair to be out in record time.

On January 25 2009 04:15 Cloud wrote:
Thats why you make your sair faster and produce nonstop zeals.

My point is simply that you can't rely on Corsair to stop a Hydra break. Therefore, you sometimes are forced to guess, if every method of getting information faisl. Never did I give an advice that he should play a guessing game. You completely misunderstood what I was trying to say.
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-25 04:56:01
January 25 2009 04:53 GMT
#29
On January 25 2009 04:15 Cloud wrote:
Thats why you make your sair faster and produce nonstop zeals.

How do you exactly get your sair faster when you are making nonstop zealots? You are sacrificing probes for zealots, not a faster tech?
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
January 25 2009 04:55 GMT
#30
What are you trying to argue here? Making constant zeals from 1 gateway and speeding up your tech is impossible even if you cut probes? Arent you a protoss player?

And yes, you said exactly that, you quoted my advice on getting a fast corsair and you said that I was wrong that it would never be in time, anybody would understand that as a "do NOT get corsair" maybe it wasnt your intention but thats what your post said.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-25 05:01:18
January 25 2009 04:58 GMT
#31
On January 25 2009 13:55 Cloud wrote:
What are you trying to argue here? Making constant zeals from 1 gateway and speeding up your tech is impossible even if you cut probes? Arent you a protoss player?

And yes, you said exactly that, you quoted my advice on getting a fast corsair and you said that I was wrong that it would never be in time, anybody would understand that as a "do NOT get corsair" maybe it wasnt your intention but thats what your post said.

Uhhhh, no? There's no way that can be translated to "do not get a Corsair" unless you twist what I saying the way you are. I am saying Corsair cannot save you, so you need to do other things in order to stop a Hydra break. Why is this so hard to understand? It doesn't mean you should not get a Corsar, it means you need to do other things in order to stop it. Look, I am simply saying your advice on getting a Corsair faster (somehow) won't rescue you from Hydras. Oh and yes, pumping constant zealots does slow down your tech even if you are cutting probes. Or at least it doesn't speed the tech up.
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
January 25 2009 05:08 GMT
#32
Like what? Sneaking probes? Totally luck dependant, wont work at all vs a zerg who is expecting it. Using zealots to force him to show his hand? If he made a little too many zerglings it can backfire really bad. Corsair is the only failsafe way, and theres already 1 poster that says it can come in time.

Constant zeals delays your tech? are you serious? its 100 minerals every 30 seconds or so, with your nat already taken. Not even in 1 base play constant zeals from 1 gateway delays your tech, else it would suck.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
Malongo
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Chile3472 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-25 05:19:39
January 25 2009 05:17 GMT
#33
Id like to read those other things to do to stop an hidra break since i cant figure anything else. You cant reach to the zerg base with 3 zeals because any half smart zerg will retreat his 6 lings and make 4 more at home. Sneaking a probe is not an option normally and worst than that one early probe somewhere hiding hurts your fe. I say just play safer: 3 cannons before stargate, 1 more before sair keep your zeals around your base and be ready to warp cannons as a madman when the sair is crossing the map. And one more thing i noted in the vods: dont take your 2 gas so early wait until the sair scouts the zerg main.
Help me! im still improving my English. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. M. G.
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-25 05:26:19
January 25 2009 05:23 GMT
#34
On January 25 2009 14:08 Cloud wrote:
Like what? Sneaking probes? Totally luck dependant, wont work at all vs a zerg who is expecting it. Using zealots to force him to show his hand? If he made a little too many zerglings it can backfire really bad. Corsair is the only failsafe way, and theres already 1 poster that says it can come in time.

Constant zeals delays your tech? are you serious? its 100 minerals every 30 seconds or so, with your nat already taken. Not even in 1 base play constant zeals from 1 gateway delays your tech, else it would suck.

All those have a higher chance than a Corsair that comes too late.

My point is you tell him to cut probes in order to get a faster tech, yet you tell him to make zealots. I am saying that would negate the lost probes. (In terms of tech)
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
January 25 2009 05:26 GMT
#35
On January 25 2009 14:17 malongo wrote:
Id like to read those other things to do to stop an hidra break since i cant figure anything else. You cant reach to the zerg base with 3 zeals because any half smart zerg will retreat his 6 lings and make 4 more at home. Sneaking a probe is not an option normally and worst than that one early probe somewhere hiding hurts your fe. I say just play safer: 3 cannons before stargate, 1 more before sair keep your zeals around your base and be ready to warp cannons as a madman when the sair is crossing the map. And one more thing i noted in the vods: dont take your 2 gas so early wait until the sair scouts the zerg main.

Yeah, I agree your suggestion is the safest, but it's just a gamble on the Protoss side. Making extra cannons, not taking second gas fast will come at a heavy cost if you guessed wrong, assuming the Zerg is around your level. But I mean, you gotta take the risk when you have to. If he does in fact go Hydras, then you win!
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
January 25 2009 05:27 GMT
#36
Probes get made faster than zeals, so the 100 minerals needed for a zeal are worth less than the 100 minerals to make probes from both nexuses, so it doesnt negate them.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
thedeadhaji *
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
39489 Posts
January 25 2009 05:28 GMT
#37
oh wtf my post didn't go through properly.

Anyways, Cloud I think you're misinterpreting what OneOther is saying, at least in terms of what he means by "corsair wont help you". From his initial response to you on page one, he is simply saying that the timing of corsair will not give you the information in time for you to make adjustments and successfully stop a 2 hatch hydra break - thus other measures must be taken in conjunction and one cannot depend solely on the corsair to give you the information necessary to defend the attack.
Malinor
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany4721 Posts
January 25 2009 05:31 GMT
#38
On January 25 2009 13:49 malongo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2009 13:40 OneOther wrote:
On January 25 2009 12:37 Cloud wrote:
So what are you saying? That he should play completely standard after being denied from scouting? Just because its apparently impossible to have a corsair out before he decides to break your base, or that the matchup is imbalanced because you just cant simply scout it?..without sick timing senses.

...I am saying your advice of "get a Corsair faster" is completely wrong, and that he needs to try whatever he can to sense what the Zerg is doing. Hiding an extra probe, sending out 3/4 zealots, or anything you can think of. And yes, sometimes, you need to just guess and hope for the best. Why do you think Protoss players lose to Hydra break if he can get a Corsair out on time? That makes no sense.

On January 25 2009 13:14 NovaTheFeared wrote:
On January 25 2009 12:37 Cloud wrote:
So what are you saying? That he should play completely standard after being denied from scouting? Just because its apparently impossible to have a corsair out before he decides to break your base, or that the matchup is imbalanced because you just cant simply scout it?..without sick timing senses.


I think what he's saying is:

Sair can't save you

The timing of the rush gets to the front before the Sair scouts that something is up. Your sair will let you see he's 2 hatch hydra just in time to get a faceload of hydra/ling.


Hahaha I didn't even catch the links first. Thanks for the examples!

I think most of these are really bad examples:
- July vs Bisu @blue storm: one missplaced cannon, corsair sees the shit in front of him bisu warps 1 cannon for a grand total of 4
- Luxury vs Best @andromeda: Best fucked is timing greatly 3 cannons before nexus or gate is too late (you can see that the corsair comes in at least 30 seconds later)
- Jaedong vs Lucifer @medusa: i shouldnt even comment this, jaedong went hatch/pool and never paid for ling speed, again lucifer put his 3 cannon in the front.
- Savior vs Bisu @blue storm: bad cannon placement, bisu has 4 cannons to defend but 2 never shot until the hidra wave was too high.

My humble opinion: corsair has the timing to see it coming in the middle of the map giving you the time to warp a 5 cannon and normally what ive seen lately is that progamers (best, tazza) put the 4 cannon when sair is 3/4 so when sair scouts they have time to cancel it if needed. So best defence: 2 cannons before nexus, one more after core, 4 cannon at 3/4 sair and 2 more if the sair checks something middleway to the zerg base. High priority to cannon line formation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwvCoHCQ8Z0&eurl=http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9989_Bisu_vs_July/vod



Kinda funny, you look at these games and take them as evidence that the corsair would be able to see what is comming given the right timing. When I watch these games I think it becomes obvious that the corsair won't save you.
Best vs Luxury in example: You say his timing is fucked because of 3 cannons before Nexus. But put yourself in Bests position: He scouts 9pool+speed+10lings... the 3rd cannon is basically forced, he has to fear an ling all-in/ run-by at this stage. 2 cannons is not gonna cut it if Luxury shows up with like 16 speedlings at his frontdoor.
When you talk about "bad cannon-placement" you need to realize that especially the first cannons are not placed against hydras but against lings... warping all your cannons in front of your buildings is not really an option since zerglings would easily surround them. you would need more cannons to start with which would delay your corsair again.

The main argument has been posted before: If corsairs would be able to scout this in time, there would be no point to use 2hatch hydra. No protoss would ever lose to it.
"Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come."
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
January 25 2009 05:34 GMT
#39
Yes, i understand that haji, only after he blatantly clarified it however. Still, a fast corsair is i believe the best way, the constant zeals should delay the zergs decision to attack you. Granting you more time for the corsair to come out.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
Psyonic_Reaver
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States4336 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-25 05:45:28
January 25 2009 05:42 GMT
#40
I'm glad thedeadhaji explained it. I was getting confused as to why Cloud was getting worked up.

If the zerg is rushing to break you as fast as he can, and you rush straight to corsair, yes, you'll get the Sair out in time to scout the 2 hatch hydra break but it won't help you stop the hydras other then seeing them rushing to your base. (Unless the Zerg player waits too long and gives you time to build cannons.)

As for getting a Sair out before a Zerg sends his hydras to your base. I'd like to see that build because that means you'd have to skimp on a 3rd cannon or cut zealots to get faster gas which can be risky.

As to exactly stop a 2 hatch or 3 hatch hydra break. It all comes down to your tenacity on wanting to get the scouting information to know if he's going to do it. I'm willing to sacrifice 2 zealots to stall the lings long enough to at least get a probe to the Zerg nat for a look. Sometimes I'll send another probe out as well to act decoy/scout for expos. If you don't see a 3rd, prepare for some kind of attack. If you get a probe to the Zerg nat and you see no 2nd gas taken or it's taken but little drones, the zerg is teching or massing. If you can get in the main base, even better. If a Zerg is going to take a 3rd base, he'll have alot of drones at the nat in preparation for the transfer.

If the Zerg disengages the Zealots to chase your probe(s), send the Zealots to scout. As a Protoss, Zerg can be sneaky so it is necessary to get that scout and do it soon.

While you are being tenacious in your scouting, get the Corsair to the Zerg base as quickly as you can in case you fail in all attempts to scout.

If you just sit in your base and decide to just wait for the corsair to make a decision, you are taking a big risk and sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't.
So wait? I'm bad? =(
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
January 25 2009 05:42 GMT
#41
On January 25 2009 14:34 Cloud wrote:
Yes, i understand that haji, only after he blatantly clarified it however. Still, a fast corsair is i believe the best way, the constant zeals should delay the zergs decision to attack you. Granting you more time for the corsair to come out.

Are you trying to say I wasn't being clear at first?
You never get your corsair on time to prepare for a 2 hatch hydra all-in, if the Zerg is half-decent. It doesn't matter how much you rush the tech or cut probes. Add a third cannon, then it's up to the experience and game sense, really. And yeah, keep making those zealots because zealots+probes really help you survive. Do everything you can to get as much information as possible. Like someone said above, hide a probe somewhere that Overlords will not be flying across. Try to see when he gets the third. Of course scouting his main would be ideal, but that rarely happens, but even if you scout his natural, you can somewhat tell what he's doing by looking at the drone count.

Read the first sentence. I made it blatantly clear from the beginning.
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
January 25 2009 05:47 GMT
#42
On January 25 2009 10:55 OneOther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2009 04:15 Cloud wrote:
Thats why you make your sair faster and produce nonstop zeals.

No, this is wrong.


Yep, thats what i mean.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
StarBrift
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden1761 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-26 19:02:35
January 25 2009 05:47 GMT
#43
Just drop it Cloud. You're wrong because what you say doesn't work in reality. The hydra breaks are timed to come out before the corsair. If you have a corsair in his base before his hydras started moving to your base he is simply a bad player with crappy timings.

And no, you can't pay for zealots, cannons and fast tech by just cutting probes, unless you're cutting pylons also or something? Even if you could cut probes to get the corsair out faster what good would it do you? You would have a bunch of zeals and cannons but absolutely crap economy, If he did a heavy macro build you'll most likely be fucked. I'd rather add 5 cannons blindly than cutting probes early. Wouldn't you also rather cut zealots for probes and add cannons at the last possible moment?

Btw, how do you get your corsair faster than standard? The standard builds are mapped out to get the corsair tech out with the first gas you get. You're gonna make less cannons to get faster core vs a possible speedling runby?

There's a reason pro gamers don't counter hydra pushes with corsair rush. Because it's not possible and because the corsair itself does not counter hydras. Lately they counter it by doing 3 cannons and adding a 4th as they move out with the corsair. If they spot hydras they can add a fifth. If they spot tech they cancel the 4th.

Edit: I shamefully denounce and reject this post! Nony has since set me straight and I've had much success with the advice he gave.
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-25 05:52:29
January 25 2009 05:48 GMT
#44
On January 25 2009 14:31 Malinor wrote:
The main argument has been posted before: If corsairs would be able to scout this in time, there would be no point to use 2hatch hydra. No protoss would ever lose to it.

Our argument comes down to this. This is what I was saying the entire time.
On January 25 2009 14:47 Cloud wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2009 10:55 OneOther wrote:
On January 25 2009 04:15 Cloud wrote:
Thats why you make your sair faster and produce nonstop zeals.

No, this is wrong.


Yep, thats what i mean.

Are you just trolling now? I meant the first sentence of what I quoted. Nevertheless, my second sentence of my first post, and the five posts afterwards said the same thing. You are wrong and you need to get over it.
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
January 25 2009 05:50 GMT
#45
On January 25 2009 14:42 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:


You dont skip the 3rd cannon, you ALREADY have the 3rd cannon if you want to survive his speedlings. Of course the corsair doesnt help fighting hydras lol, but any time you can buy by knowing the attack before it actually happens is worth in gold.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-25 05:54:16
January 25 2009 05:52 GMT
#46
Lol ok, im getting a lot of shit here, but just for closing, Starbrit, its not the hydra rush that is countered. ITS THE DENIED SCOUTING DUE TO SPEEDLINGS THAT FORCES YOU TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Have fun sneaking probes instead of figuring out how to cut probes and get your sair in time.

Oh and oneother, i only left that part from your post, since thats exactly the part that you left out when you quoted yourself.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-25 06:02:23
January 25 2009 05:59 GMT
#47
On January 25 2009 14:52 Cloud wrote:
Lol ok, im getting a lot of shit here, but just for closing, Starbrit, its not the hydra rush that is countered. ITS THE DENIED SCOUTING DUE TO SPEEDLINGS THAT FORCES YOU TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Have fun sneaking probes instead of figuring out how to cut probes and get your sair in time.

Oh and oneother, i only left that part from your post, since thats exactly the part that you left out when you quoted yourself.

If Protoss could cut probes to get a fast enough Corsair to stop a 2 hatch Hydra, why would everyone not do it everytime the Zerg goes 9 Pool Speedlings? We are talking about StarCraft here, not the ideal, imaginary CloudCraft. In real StarCraft, Protoss does not get the Corsair on time to set up defense verses Hydras on time, which is what makes the Protoss player try alternate methods. If all fails, then yeah it's time to add more cannons. Everyone is telling you that cutting probes and getting a faster Corsair somehow is not the solution.

I made my point clear from the beginning - the second sentence of my first post. But good job figuring out which part I left out, as if that's relevant at all. I said read the first sentence of what I quoted. Don't try to claim that I wasn't being clear. Anyways, I think I am done here. This is getting ridiculous.
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
January 25 2009 06:03 GMT
#48
Because they probably have the same idea as you that its simply impossible to get it in time? And cutting probes isnt appealing to anyone. If everyone scouted with their 6th worker, 5 pools would be completely useless, yet almost no one likes the idea of that, right?
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
January 25 2009 06:07 GMT
#49
.....Cloud why are you trolling so hard :o
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
January 25 2009 06:13 GMT
#50
Whatever dude, take my posts as you see fit. Im only defending my position, if you see that as trolling.. well whatever.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
Malongo
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Chile3472 Posts
January 25 2009 06:14 GMT
#51
On January 25 2009 14:31 Malinor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2009 13:49 malongo wrote:
On January 25 2009 13:40 OneOther wrote:
On January 25 2009 12:37 Cloud wrote:
So what are you saying? That he should play completely standard after being denied from scouting? Just because its apparently impossible to have a corsair out before he decides to break your base, or that the matchup is imbalanced because you just cant simply scout it?..without sick timing senses.

...I am saying your advice of "get a Corsair faster" is completely wrong, and that he needs to try whatever he can to sense what the Zerg is doing. Hiding an extra probe, sending out 3/4 zealots, or anything you can think of. And yes, sometimes, you need to just guess and hope for the best. Why do you think Protoss players lose to Hydra break if he can get a Corsair out on time? That makes no sense.

On January 25 2009 13:14 NovaTheFeared wrote:
On January 25 2009 12:37 Cloud wrote:
So what are you saying? That he should play completely standard after being denied from scouting? Just because its apparently impossible to have a corsair out before he decides to break your base, or that the matchup is imbalanced because you just cant simply scout it?..without sick timing senses.


I think what he's saying is:

Sair can't save you

The timing of the rush gets to the front before the Sair scouts that something is up. Your sair will let you see he's 2 hatch hydra just in time to get a faceload of hydra/ling.


Hahaha I didn't even catch the links first. Thanks for the examples!

I think most of these are really bad examples:
- July vs Bisu @blue storm: one missplaced cannon, corsair sees the shit in front of him bisu warps 1 cannon for a grand total of 4
- Luxury vs Best @andromeda: Best fucked is timing greatly 3 cannons before nexus or gate is too late (you can see that the corsair comes in at least 30 seconds later)
- Jaedong vs Lucifer @medusa: i shouldnt even comment this, jaedong went hatch/pool and never paid for ling speed, again lucifer put his 3 cannon in the front.
- Savior vs Bisu @blue storm: bad cannon placement, bisu has 4 cannons to defend but 2 never shot until the hidra wave was too high.

My humble opinion: corsair has the timing to see it coming in the middle of the map giving you the time to warp a 5 cannon and normally what ive seen lately is that progamers (best, tazza) put the 4 cannon when sair is 3/4 so when sair scouts they have time to cancel it if needed. So best defence: 2 cannons before nexus, one more after core, 4 cannon at 3/4 sair and 2 more if the sair checks something middleway to the zerg base. High priority to cannon line formation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwvCoHCQ8Z0&eurl=http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9989_Bisu_vs_July/vod



Kinda funny, you look at these games and take them as evidence that the corsair would be able to see what is comming given the right timing. When I watch these games I think it becomes obvious that the corsair won't save you.
Best vs Luxury in example: You say his timing is fucked because of 3 cannons before Nexus. But put yourself in Bests position: He scouts 9pool+speed+10lings... the 3rd cannon is basically forced, he has to fear an ling all-in/ run-by at this stage. 2 cannons is not gonna cut it if Luxury shows up with like 16 speedlings at his frontdoor.
When you talk about "bad cannon-placement" you need to realize that especially the first cannons are not placed against hydras but against lings... warping all your cannons in front of your buildings is not really an option since zerglings would easily surround them. you would need more cannons to start with which would delay your corsair again.

The main argument has been posted before: If corsairs would be able to scout this in time, there would be no point to use 2hatch hydra. No protoss would ever lose to it.

Ok then the answer is: this is not scoutable, there is no "other stuff to do" as oneother never posted anything else and this is a zerg autowin. Is that it? LOL.
And from what ive seen not even foreigners get 3 cannons before nexus/gate and idk how 8 lings can be 16 at his frontdoor, to make it a little more clear WARPING 3 CANNONS BEFORE NEX IS BAD.
And to oneother: delaying your 2 gas and putting 2 extra cannons wont hurt you if the zerg went speedlings, in fact not all progamers take that 2 gas so early. Its not like youre guessing youre just playing safe.
Help me! im still improving my English. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. M. G.
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8748 Posts
January 25 2009 09:02 GMT
#52
a corsair can finish building before 5:35 and, scouting along the ground path between the two players, can see a 9pool speed --> 2hatch hydra bust build in time to block it. 2 cannons can start building immediately, and the protoss will have 1goon, 3 zealot, 12 probes out front, that can hold until those cannons finish.

the failure vods that were posted can be explained:
bisu and best both do a greedier build and so the corsair is too late. the hydras walk right up to the cannons without any wall of probe/zealot/goon to stop them.
tempest does a build with really late scouting, so jaedong is able to deny scouting without getting ling speed, and so his hydra attack is faster.

the bisu vs july game @ medusa with the successful defense is an example of a compromised protoss build. bisu does not build a 2nd assimilator, he does not build a citadel, he does not get +1 weapons, he does not build probes non-stop. he delays all of those things so that he can make zealots, cannons, and a fast corsair. it's not the fastest corsair possible, but his variation with more cannons and slower tech works as well.

i think the corsair rush is good, and what bisu did can also work, but i wanted to check out rushing to 4 zealots, and it seems promising. i havent done it in practice at all, but from watching a replay of the timing, it seems that the 4 zealots get on offense fast enough that they can discover the zerg's build beyond speedlings. even if hydra/ling owns them, such a battle would take place on the zerg's side of the map, so protoss has time to prepare for the counterattack. it should work similarly against 2hatch muta. a macro zerg will also be scouted, which allows the protoss to start making probes non-stop, or adjust in whatever other way they want to, and it forces the zerg to make lings when they need to make drones. the only problematic build, i think, is mass lings. the zealots will get eaten up and sufficient defense might not be possible in time for the huge counterattack. but mass lings is the worst build against a normal toss build and it's uncommon
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-25 09:20:37
January 25 2009 09:16 GMT
#53
nony: how did bisu know july was doing an aggressive/all-in build? i mean a protoss player would never forgo all those things just in case the zerg does a hydra break, because he would be at a huge disadvantage if it ends up being a normal macro game. did he guess, and ended up being correct?

i guess if you somehow think the zerg is doing an all-in, it's fine to skip all those things because you just need to defend. but if you have no idea what the z is doing, would you actually skip 1+ attack/late citadel/late second assim/cut economy?
GTR
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
51436 Posts
January 25 2009 10:14 GMT
#54
it's july, he always plays aggresive ;o
Commentator
zomgzergrush
Profile Joined August 2008
United States923 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-25 12:20:22
January 25 2009 12:14 GMT
#55
CORSAIRS
CANNOT
*ALWAYS*
SAVE YOU

OneOther put it right the first time, cloud. I've NEVER seen a sair see me in time when I 2 hatch hydra. Ever. I think you are confusing 3 hatch hydra....

Hydra break with 2 hatch and 8 hydra (excluding 4 more hydra cuts time as well) makes it faster as well..
Bronze skipping straight to Diamond in 40 games retail release. Bnet 2.0 ladder really takes it's sweet time to think about that league placement.
Malongo
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Chile3472 Posts
January 25 2009 19:06 GMT
#56
On January 25 2009 18:02 Liquid`NonY wrote:
a corsair can finish building before 5:35 and, scouting along the ground path between the two players, can see a 9pool speed --> 2hatch hydra bust build in time to block it. 2 cannons can start building immediately, and the protoss will have 1goon, 3 zealot, 12 probes out front, that can hold until those cannons finish.

the failure vods that were posted can be explained:
bisu and best both do a greedier build and so the corsair is too late. the hydras walk right up to the cannons without any wall of probe/zealot/goon to stop them.
tempest does a build with really late scouting, so jaedong is able to deny scouting without getting ling speed, and so his hydra attack is faster.

the bisu vs july game @ medusa with the successful defense is an example of a compromised protoss build. bisu does not build a 2nd assimilator, he does not build a citadel, he does not get +1 weapons, he does not build probes non-stop. he delays all of those things so that he can make zealots, cannons, and a fast corsair. it's not the fastest corsair possible, but his variation with more cannons and slower tech works as well.

i think the corsair rush is good, and what bisu did can also work, but i wanted to check out rushing to 4 zealots, and it seems promising. i havent done it in practice at all, but from watching a replay of the timing, it seems that the 4 zealots get on offense fast enough that they can discover the zerg's build beyond speedlings. even if hydra/ling owns them, such a battle would take place on the zerg's side of the map, so protoss has time to prepare for the counterattack. it should work similarly against 2hatch muta. a macro zerg will also be scouted, which allows the protoss to start making probes non-stop, or adjust in whatever other way they want to, and it forces the zerg to make lings when they need to make drones. the only problematic build, i think, is mass lings. the zealots will get eaten up and sufficient defense might not be possible in time for the huge counterattack. but mass lings is the worst build against a normal toss build and it's uncommon

Hopefully theres more people like nony wanting to analize bos (and actually watch the vods) other than just posting "sair cant save you". The main problem i see with the idea from nony (the 4 zeal rush scouting) is that you need to skip the first goon giving more space to overlord scouting. On the other hand nony can answer some questions for us:

¿how fast to take the second gas if zerg 9pool speed? the zerg has to delay his macro a lot early game compared to a hatch/pool/gas or im wrong? im really interested about this.
¿timing for the third cannon? im suposing 2 cannons after forge then nexus and 9 pools/peedlings scouted, i think after core is the safest.
¿Can you post a replay with the fastest sair?
thank you.

Help me! im still improving my English. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. M. G.
Shado.
Profile Joined February 2008
United States187 Posts
January 26 2009 00:10 GMT
#57
I still think probe scouting or sending a zealot to scout is sufficient enough to recognize an all in build.

If Zerg has only 6-8 lings, and you use 2 probes to scout, one to attract attention and one to sneak out, you should be fine. You should only have problems scouting if he builds 12+ lings, in which case you can just throw down extra cannons, since he is pretty behind building all those early lings.

The early sair BO sounds interesting and is certainly safer. I guess you can try it vs notoriously aggressive zergs (July)
LemOn
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United Kingdom8629 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-26 01:14:43
January 26 2009 00:53 GMT
#58
So all and all, you guys suggest sneaking whatever possible out of base to scout him after speedlings?

Because I keep losing probes only to make 3-4 canons, than some at base only to find out that he went 4 hatch drone whore.

Could someone make a guide on scouting tricks against Z speedling opening?

And 10 lings easily stop 2-3 probes TT

EDIT: Oh shiz how did I miss the Nony's post? I thought I read it all. So zeals enough to get the lings I saw to push him to his base and see hydras to allow canon whoring

Thank god we have you
Much is the father figure that I miss in my life. Go Daddy! DoC.LemOn, LemOn[5thF]
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
January 26 2009 00:55 GMT
#59
Do not sneak man, just dont. Read the thread.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
ZERG_RUSSIAN
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
10417 Posts
January 26 2009 00:59 GMT
#60
Seriously, everyone here except Cloud and Nony are overestimating how powerful a 2 hatch hydra all-in is. I mean, really? It's like a 9 pool for the midgame. Even if you don't scout it, they have to micro like a god to finish you off with it - which is not to say that it doesn't happen. But come on, you can stop a group of hydras with less than 5 cannons half of the time if they don't micro perfectly.

4-5 hatch hydra, on the other hand...
I'm on GOLD CHAIN
Psyonic_Reaver
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States4336 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-26 01:13:41
January 26 2009 01:13 GMT
#61
Did NOBODY read what I wrote at the end of page 2?

Edit- Besides Cloud?
So wait? I'm bad? =(
Racenilatr
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States2756 Posts
January 26 2009 01:46 GMT
#62
2 hatch hydra: If the Zerg goes for a 2 hatch hydra build, they won't have a lair and they will have to get the hydra den up fairly early. If you don't see a third hatchery from the zerg player, no lair, and your sure theres no third hatch going up at some other expansion, it's a 2 hatch hydra push.

The zerg will probably try to get speedlings to deny your scout to put up the hydra den(can't be delayed;otherwise it throws off timing) Timing is that sair will be able to get to base and u can put up defenses in time against 2 hatch muta(maybe) and against any 3 hatch builds. You will probably suspect 3 hatch hydra just by process of elimination from what the Zerg CAN and CANT do
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
January 26 2009 03:30 GMT
#63
The problem is that zerg can get his 3rd in at least a couple of places, and speedlings may be guarding the path you can take to at least one of them, so your process by elimination while logical, doesnt work too well as your info may be incomplete.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
Wala.Revolution
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
7582 Posts
January 26 2009 03:48 GMT
#64
Hmm, although I don't exactly know the timings of what happens at when, the VOD of Luxury vs. a toss on Andromeda (Lux at 11, toss at 7) should be of help.

Lux went 9pool speed and denied scouting, toss went for sairs then a robo at nat; toss lost because he was unprepared for the hydra push as the sair was halfway to zerg base when hydras were advancing.
Stuck.
ZERG_RUSSIAN
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
10417 Posts
January 26 2009 04:52 GMT
#65
We're still missing the point here. It's a gamble every time you 2 hatch hydra all-in. If it was unstoppable, why wouldn't every zerg do this every game?
I'm on GOLD CHAIN
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8748 Posts
January 26 2009 05:34 GMT
#66
ok look here is the replay for the corsair rush

[image loading]


compare it to jaedong vs arew

[image loading]


the only difference is that 1 goon + 2 zealot can start bullying the zerglings, and can scout right outside the protoss base, so the corsair doesn't actually have to fly to the mineral-only. it can go straight to the middle of the map. when the hydras are seen, the cannon in the main is canceled, and 2 cannons are started out front. probes are pulled, archives is started. the huge blob of probe zealot goon simply get in the way of the hydras so they cant run straight up to a cannon and snipe it. lots of probes will die, it's going to be really scrappy, but that's fine.

a protoss who does the same build vs 9pool speed as he does vs 12hatch (except for the timing of the nexus and first cannon, of course) is like a protoss who double expands vs a terran as soon as he sees siege mode. it's a greedy risk. the terran could be doing a siege-first 2fact or he could be going dropship. but you double expand. getting a corsair slower than i do in that replay, or making less than 4 cannons, or not doing this little 4 zealot rush, is just taking a risk like that.
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
Stimpacked
Profile Joined June 2008
Philippines368 Posts
January 26 2009 06:45 GMT
#67
yes thats why progamers try to sacrifice 2-3 zeals and a goon to know whats up and making cannons in time to protect from incoming hydras. Relying on corsair is not a really good idea since the sole purpose of 2hatch builds is to break your nat just before or a little after the 1st Ps sair comes out.
live and let live...
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
January 26 2009 08:51 GMT
#68
On January 26 2009 13:52 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
We're still missing the point here. It's a gamble every time you 2 hatch hydra all-in. If it was unstoppable, why wouldn't every zerg do this every game?

Who said it's unstoppable? Of course it's a gamble, and we are discussing the best way to defend verses it.
Shauni
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
4077 Posts
January 26 2009 09:01 GMT
#69
Moving out with your initial 3 or 4 zealots has been most successful for me against hydra breaks. I really don't like cutting probes like Nony says, many zergs do heavy macro mode after initial lings, so cutting probes and adding cannons at chance will put you further behind. Corsair rushing is really a bad idea, except on pro level when you know the exact timing for the hydra break. And even then, I wouldn't like it. However, you need sairs against a 2 hatch muta build. I suppose that is why almost all progamers gets their sairs even when they suspect some kind of allin. So only if you are sure of him doing a hydra allin build, you should cancel the stargate.
I'm taking whatever coverage I can get, because frankly, I'm busy working on this million dollar deal at my job. Early retirement is a good thing brotha man. - MessengerASL
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8748 Posts
January 26 2009 10:05 GMT
#70
the conclusion that is supposed to be drawn from watching those two replays is that rushing to corsair beats 2hat hydra builds. and obviously beats 2hat muta builds as well

there is no timing to learn here. there is no game sense needed. no tricky scouting. i posted a replay with a build order that can be copied exactly along with instructions on what to do when the corsair scouts.

everyone should be thinking "wow, now i'll no longer die to 2hat hydra or 2hat muta thanks to this simple build that i can mindlessly copy"

and if the zerg macros, you aren't behind. if you have been playing greedily against 9pool speed macro zergs, then you've had a free advantage during midgame all along. your zealot/archon timing attack should be amazing. you'll have to learn to play midgame
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
Racenilatr
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States2756 Posts
January 26 2009 11:34 GMT
#71
On January 26 2009 19:05 Liquid`NonY wrote:
the conclusion that is supposed to be drawn from watching those two replays is that rushing to corsair beats 2hat hydra builds. and obviously beats 2hat muta builds as well

there is no timing to learn here. there is no game sense needed. no tricky scouting. i posted a replay with a build order that can be copied exactly along with instructions on what to do when the corsair scouts.

everyone should be thinking "wow, now i'll no longer die to 2hat hydra or 2hat muta thanks to this simple build that i can mindlessly copy"

and if the zerg macros, you aren't behind. if you have been playing greedily against 9pool speed macro zergs, then you've had a free advantage during midgame all along. your zealot/archon timing attack should be amazing. you'll have to learn to play midgame

haha that just about settles it because Nony>everyone else :D
bitchaRd[raGe]
Profile Joined August 2008
Russian Federation376 Posts
January 26 2009 11:44 GMT
#72
Yay, NonY, thanks alot for replay!
SKT1!
Shauni
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
4077 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-26 12:51:01
January 26 2009 11:59 GMT
#73
On January 26 2009 19:05 Liquid`NonY wrote:
the conclusion that is supposed to be drawn from watching those two replays is that rushing to corsair beats 2hat hydra builds. and obviously beats 2hat muta builds as well

there is no timing to learn here. there is no game sense needed. no tricky scouting. i posted a replay with a build order that can be copied exactly along with instructions on what to do when the corsair scouts.

everyone should be thinking "wow, now i'll no longer die to 2hat hydra or 2hat muta thanks to this simple build that i can mindlessly copy"

and if the zerg macros, you aren't behind. if you have been playing greedily against 9pool speed macro zergs, then you've had a free advantage during midgame all along. your zealot/archon timing attack should be amazing. you'll have to learn to play midgame


I watched the replays carefully, and I also watched some of my replays against 2 hatch hydra. Some of them involved zergs attacking before the 6 minute mark. In that case, you'll barely have time to start warping cannons even with the early sair build. So I don't understand how there can be no timing window or game sense needed to do this well (or rather, to understand when the zerg will be able to attack, with how many hydras and what his drone count will be). Arew would (most likely) have died against the hydras even if his sair was out 20 seconds earlier. But yeah, it's a good build against 9pool speedlings. I'll try this and see if it helps against 2 hatch hydras more than my early gate 3 zealot attack build.
I'm taking whatever coverage I can get, because frankly, I'm busy working on this million dollar deal at my job. Early retirement is a good thing brotha man. - MessengerASL
Malongo
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Chile3472 Posts
January 26 2009 14:04 GMT
#74
On January 26 2009 19:05 Liquid`NonY wrote:
the conclusion that is supposed to be drawn from watching those two replays is that rushing to corsair beats 2hat hydra builds. and obviously beats 2hat muta builds as well

there is no timing to learn here. there is no game sense needed. no tricky scouting. i posted a replay with a build order that can be copied exactly along with instructions on what to do when the corsair scouts.

everyone should be thinking "wow, now i'll no longer die to 2hat hydra or 2hat muta thanks to this simple build that i can mindlessly copy"

and if the zerg macros, you aren't behind. if you have been playing greedily against 9pool speed macro zergs, then you've had a free advantage during midgame all along. your zealot/archon timing attack should be amazing. you'll have to learn to play midgame

thank you nony.
Help me! im still improving my English. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. M. G.
Amber[LighT]
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
United States5078 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-01-26 14:49:36
January 26 2009 14:47 GMT
#75
On January 26 2009 20:59 Shauni wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 26 2009 19:05 Liquid`NonY wrote:
the conclusion that is supposed to be drawn from watching those two replays is that rushing to corsair beats 2hat hydra builds. and obviously beats 2hat muta builds as well

there is no timing to learn here. there is no game sense needed. no tricky scouting. i posted a replay with a build order that can be copied exactly along with instructions on what to do when the corsair scouts.

everyone should be thinking "wow, now i'll no longer die to 2hat hydra or 2hat muta thanks to this simple build that i can mindlessly copy"

and if the zerg macros, you aren't behind. if you have been playing greedily against 9pool speed macro zergs, then you've had a free advantage during midgame all along. your zealot/archon timing attack should be amazing. you'll have to learn to play midgame


I watched the replays carefully, and I also watched some of my replays against 2 hatch hydra. Some of them involved zergs attacking before the 6 minute mark. In that case, you'll barely have time to start warping cannons even with the early sair build. So I don't understand how there can be no timing window or game sense needed to do this well (or rather, to understand when the zerg will be able to attack, with how many hydras and what his drone count will be). Arew would (most likely) have died against the hydras even if his sair was out 20 seconds earlier. But yeah, it's a good build against 9pool speedlings. I'll try this and see if it helps against 2 hatch hydras more than my early gate 3 zealot attack build.


Chances are you are either not harassing like Nony suggested (2 lot & 1 goon) making it easier for the zerg to freely tech, or you just never scouted properly, which is still a must. Even though Nony suggested the easy alternative to tricky scouting, note that did not imply to initially have sloppy scouting. The entire early game PvZ when you are going for the FE build is excellent scouting. Ideally keeping your probe alive until your expo is up would be great, then you can gauge whether you even need the corsair, but anyway.

You still want to keep the first probe alive AS LONG AS POSSIBLE, since typically a Zerg that wants to go for this 2 hatch hydra build may or may not go for the ling speed. If they don't it is then easier to keep your scouting probe alive. What's more important is to make sure you are keeping track of the drone count on gas. If they bring it down to one typically they are going for the ling speed or trying to throw you off, but take it as though they are not going for the quick hydra (if they choose to they will be down gas and I would guess their upgrades will be later). Ensuring that your probe stays alive is a great incentive for the zerg to not go for the hydra build so early. If you have a rep to post so we can see what you are talking about that would help
"We have unfinished business, I and he."
olabaz
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States298 Posts
July 01 2009 02:33 GMT
#76
On January 26 2009 19:05 Liquid`NonY wrote:
the conclusion that is supposed to be drawn from watching those two replays is that rushing to corsair beats 2hat hydra builds. and obviously beats 2hat muta builds as well

there is no timing to learn here. there is no game sense needed. no tricky scouting. i posted a replay with a build order that can be copied exactly along with instructions on what to do when the corsair scouts.

everyone should be thinking "wow, now i'll no longer die to 2hat hydra or 2hat muta thanks to this simple build that i can mindlessly copy"

and if the zerg macros, you aren't behind. if you have been playing greedily against 9pool speed macro zergs, then you've had a free advantage during midgame all along. your zealot/archon timing attack should be amazing. you'll have to learn to play midgame


Question, can I just do the corsair rush build every time to be safe or is there a downside to it if they do another build?
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
July 01 2009 02:35 GMT
#77
Theres no reason to do it if they dont open pool speed, is that what youre asking?
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
olabaz
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States298 Posts
July 01 2009 02:42 GMT
#78
Yeah. But why not get the early scout?
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