EPTstar for day9 obv
[Audio]Stopping Mech as Zerg by Day[9] - Page 4
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CTStalker
Canada9720 Posts
star for day9 obv | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
You are correct about the mineral is important and the weaknesses of mechbuilds etc. Its just that its not as simple as that, im not trying to lecture you but maybe some of the other forumusers here. the newschool terran mech is based on forcing zerg to use a low eco. Preassure him early and make him fear an early midgame push, so he cannot make drones. It will be 2 base vs 2base, zerg will keep making units coz he is afraid of terran timing push. If he stops making units and makes a hatchery, terran moves out. Terran can also use his first 2 goliaths to roam across the map killing overlords like flash did vs effort. I also apologized to you if i sounded like that. But i was quoting MeRz statement which probably was sarcastic anyway. I think you are right, zerg need to focus on a different playstyle. Getting hydra first is very good, speed also and adapt to the terran, but i feel as if neither strat will counter one other. Usually nowadays what you will see is a terran army made of 10++ goliaths and 2++ tanks move out. Depending on what the zerg does. | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
On January 07 2009 23:35 AnOth3rDAy wrote: the newschool terran mech is based on forcing zerg to use a low eco. Preassure him early and make him fear an early midgame push, so he cannot make drones. It will be 2 base vs 2base, zerg will keep making units coz he is afraid of terran timing push. If he stops making units and makes a hatchery, terran moves out. yesyesyesyes!!! this is EXACTLY why i flipped out at the absolute genius of the fantasy build. Its a well thought out way to minimize the danger of falling behind economically midgame | ||
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
I just implemented Day's strat and raped someone on Destination. In my favor though, the terrran built a blatant 8-barracks in front of my base so I scouted it and killed the building scv which delayed his bunker rush. Now Day responded pretty well to AnotherDay's post, but yea, you can still do this guide and build up enough to stop a "midgame push". The midgame push is usually not hard to block if you scout it correctly. I think a good strategy is if the terran does a midgame push to wipe out an expo, you should go ahead and wipe out his nat. In my game, the terran does a midgame push and I realize I'm caught out of position and with not many units. So I counter his nat and ALMOST break it. TT 90 hp command center + 15 repairing scvs = wtf. http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/4422/replays/0092 setwetwetT GuNStRyKeRZ.rep Anyway, I really like the build. The key is getting hydras early to defend against vulture raids / harass / preventing expoes and making like 3 rounds of drones = 5 hatcheries x 3 larva x 3 = 45 drones or something like that (although in the future I think I might do 2, if I smell a midgame push like the one in the game). | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On January 07 2009 23:39 Day[9] wrote: yesyesyesyes!!! this is EXACTLY why i flipped out at the absolute genius of the fantasy build. Its a well thought out way to minimize the danger of falling behind economically midgame yes, not only fantasybuild but also the speedvult build. Although its better vs the 2hatch openings. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10844 Posts
But against Mech? You have to notice what the Terran is aming for. If he's going for the *classic* lategame-Blob or the *new* midgame-Blob (which is nothing different, just smaller). You have no *Hard*-Counter against this like Swarm, Lurkers and Ultras which will save your day. You have to notice if the Terran want's to be fancy with a Vulturedrop/Harrass. You have to notice if the Terran is *early* aggressive which means that you have to get many Hydras early and expand after that first push OR if the Terran is defensive and you have to get your expansions up first and then start the real massing. It's like playing vs a strong Protoss timing push, read it right and you fend this first go off whiteout much of a problem, read it wrong and your in a world of trouble/dead. With the diffrence that you can't hide behind sunkens and Lurkers against Mech. As for copying Jaedong and the likes... Seriously... 95% of the player see Jaedong doing a Mutalisk harrass or whatever and think, wew that rocks... The diffrence? He can pull it off while Mr. AbitAboveAverage will do half the damage at twice the cost. | ||
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
Now Day responded pretty well to AnotherDay's post, but yea, you can still do this guide and build up enough to stop a "midgame push". The midgame push is usually not hard to block if you scout it correctly i think thats like saying that the ~10 minute blob standard TvZ isnt hard breaking using 3hatch. Neither strat is a direct counter but basically two standard builds won by the better player. I don't know if you guys like that i argue here, admins might get mad at me or soemthing  | ||
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
On January 07 2009 23:46 AnOth3rDAy wrote: i think thats like saying that the ~10 minute blod standard TvZ isnt hard breaking using 3hatch. Neither strat is a direct counter but basically two standard builds won by the better player. I don't know if you guys like that i argue here, admins might get mad at me or soemthing Yea, that's more or less what I meant.  I think in general ppl will say stuff like "this strat will own" when it really means "it's a good soft counter". | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
As for copying Jaedong and the likes... Seriously... 95% of the player see Jaedong doing a Mutalisk harrass or whatever and think, wew that rocks... The diffrence? He can pull it off while Mr. AbitAboveAverage will do half the damage at twice the cost. but you should watch his games, and other progamers, and figure out the basic concept of their builds. What are they trying to do to counter etc.. it can be very useful. If you can do it or not is ofcourse your problem. If i learn a good terran strat im not going to say its crap just coz its hard to do, i practice it and learn it as good as i can.. Also can't help but to find it rather amusing that you're DAy and im another DAy im the terranDAy !! | ||
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littlechava
United States7221 Posts
I kinda had most of this stuff in mind before listening, I usually try to go hydra first when I see the terran going mech, but I never really used that early hydra tech successfully because I didn't actually stop and think about a general game plan vs these new mech builds. I would just try to "feel" things out, which most of the time means doing things like getting an early den but only like 3-4 hydras and no upgrades for a faster lair so I can get mutas faster (but they still dont do damage -.- ) Also, if I got to late game I still end up getting ultralisks out of force of habit. Gonna try and commit myself to using this gameplan now :p | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10844 Posts
But as Chill said: People are too focused on *tricks* while their build orders and macro are their main problems. I mean, Mutacontrol is extremly important... BUT it's a trick, your Muta hit'n'run can be really awesome, but when you completly stop macroing while doing it, it won't do you much good. *Lower* level players should just stop trying it, at least when they want to win and focus on the things that win you 10000 of games (BO, Macro, *basic Micro*, clever flanking/positioning), not on the stuff that wins you 1 out of 10 games. I've got exactly such a friend.. He's horrible, seriously I never saw someone as untalented as him, everyone has completely given up on him because he's just to retarded... He plays Protoss with 1 expansion, 2 gates, 4k Minerals.. We told him a million times times to just put up tons of gates if he's macro is that bad and just focus on his gates, he won't do it (he is playing SC for over a year now)... But this guy can trick a Probe over the Temples at Medusa with the reliabilty of a progamer, his cannon positioning at his fast expansion is absoluetly perfect, his base is perfectly set up, if there is some glitch on a map, he can use it. He watches much progaming, he just takes exactly the wrong informations from it. Seriously, If I want to improve I wouldn't watch Jaedong... I would watch players which are clearly better than me, but aren't playing on a whole other world/level. I mean, what would you get from Jaedongs recent play? Use Queens to counter M&M's? I doubt Queens would be usefull for me or almost anyone ^^. If you want to get better at at something you should not immediatly try to do what the best out there do... Take Tennis, try to play like Federer/Nadal/Djokovic/Murray... You will not achieve much, in fact you will achieve exactly nothing as long as your basics are not really good. You should also not play against players that are WAY better than you, you should play against players that are *better* than you. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On January 08 2009 00:10 Velr wrote: The builds counters are for sure good to see/know. But as Chill said: People are too focused on *tricks* while their build orders and macro are their main problems. I mean, Mutacontrol is extremly important... BUT it's a trick, your Muta hit'n'run can be really awesome, but when you completly stop macroing while doing it, it won't do you much good. *Lower* level players should just stop trying it, at least when they want to win and focus on the things that win you 10000 of games (BO, Macro, *basic Micro*, clever flanking/positioning), not on the stuff that wins you 1 out of 10 games. I've got exactly such a friend.. He's horrible, seriously I never saw someone as untalented as him, everyone has completely given up on him because he's just to retarded... He plays Protoss with 1 expansion, 2 gates, 4k Minerals.. We told him a million times times to just put up tons of gates if he's macro is that bad and just focus on his gates, he won't do it (he is playing SC for over a year now)... But this guy can trick a Probe over the Temples at Medusa with the reliabilty of a progamer, his cannon positioning at his fast expansion is absoluetly perfect, his base is perfectly set up, if there is some glitch on a map, he can use it. He watches much progaming, he just takes exactly the wrong informations from it. Seriously, If I want to improve I wouldn't watch Jaedong... I would watch players which are clearly better than me, but aren't playing on a whole other world/level. I mean, what would you get from Jaedongs recent play? Use Queens to counter M&M's? I doubt Queens would be usefull for me or almost anyone ^^. If you want to get better at at something you should not immediatly try to do what the best out there do... Take Tennis, try to play like Federer/Nadal/Djokovic/Murray... You will not achieve much, in fact you will achieve exactly nothing as long as your basics are not really good. You should also not play against players that are WAY better than you, you should play against players that are *better* than you. on lower levels muta micro is prety deadly, so even whe you arent macroing too well, and you dont do transiton at all (or myabe nto guards) you can still win the game, because many terrans arent used to agressive muta play. in fact agressive muta play is the most effective tactic i used so far against T. However i suck big time against Terran, but this is something i could use. On the topic. What about GGplay vs Flash? He stormed Flash with his shitload of ultras. You can say Flash didnt play well enough, he made serious mistake with his unit placement and engaging, but fuck, if Flash screwes it up other screwes it up too, so ultras+crackilings can devastate the terran mech army, just dont send ultras against in position mech juggernaut cuz that wont do shit. Am i wrong? I very well could be, i am a noobie. | ||
MrHoon
10183 Posts
Because flash's style = turtle, turtle, turtle, turtle, okay lets move out, ggplay used it against him by going => Expand, Expand, Expand, Expand, okay you die. Also since harassment wasn't going on GGplay went to hive and had 5 gas running without any problems. By the time Flash was leaving, GGplay just ran in with such a large force Flash just fell apart. Even if Flash had better unit placement, he would've just been overrun. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On January 08 2009 00:18 Geo.Rion wrote: on lower levels muta micro is prety deadly, so even whe you arent macroing too well, and you dont do transiton at all (or myabe nto guards) you can still win the game, because many terrans arent used to agressive muta play. in fact agressive muta play is the most effective tactic i used so far against T. However i suck big time against Terran, but this is something i could use. On the topic. What about GGplay vs Flash? He stormed Flash with his shitload of ultras. You can say Flash didnt play well enough, he made serious mistake with his unit placement and engaging, but fuck, if Flash screwes it up other screwes it up too, so ultras+crackilings can devastate the terran mech army, just dont send ultras against in position mech juggernaut cuz that wont do shit. Am i wrong? I very well could be, i am a noobie. Flash did the old mech BO so GGPlay could take the whole map without being afraid. If you have the whole map and 1000 hatcherys i doubt it will matter what you do... | ||
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
On the topic. What about GGplay vs Flash? He stormed Flash with his shitload of ultras. You can say Flash didnt play well enough, he made serious mistake with his unit placement and engaging, but fuck, if Flash screwes it up other screwes it up too, so ultras+crackilings can devastate the terran mech army, just dont send ultras against in position mech juggernaut cuz that wont do shit. Am i wrong? I very well could be, i am a noobie. When you have like 7 bases with 5 gases, it really doesn't matter what you do. In GGplay vs Flash, I think having 200/200 cracklings+hydras+mutas would have been a better combo than ultras. But at that level, ultras are probably much easier to micro and attack-move. If Flash had better positioning with goliaths in front of tanks to act as a shield against ultras, who knows, all the ultras might have exploded and GGplay would have been screwed. Ultras in that game were kind of risky because it relies on very very good flanking (which GGplay accomplished). | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On January 08 2009 00:35 StRyKeR wrote: When you have like 7 bases with 5 gases, it really doesn't matter what you do. In GGplay vs Flash, I think having 200/200 cracklings+hydras+mutas would have been a better combo than ultras. But at that level, ultras are probably much easier to micro and attack-move. If Flash had better positioning with goliaths in front of tanks to act as a shield against ultras, who knows, all the ultras might have exploded and GGplay would have been screwed. Ultras in that game were kind of risky because it relies on very very good flanking (which GGplay accomplished). yes but i think GGPlays plan with the ultralisks was that he used as few hatcheries as possible, only putting them at expantions, making drones nonstop. Thus having few larva (at that specific game) and how do you make a strong army with few larva once u have your economy up? 4su5su6su7su8su GG | ||
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
On January 08 2009 00:38 AnOth3rDAy wrote: yes but i think GGPlays plan with the ultralisks was that he used as few hatcheries as possible, only putting them at expantions, making drones nonstop. Thus having few larva (at that specific game) and how do you make a strong army with few larva once u have your economy up? 4su5su6su7su8su GG Yea that's a good point. Ultras give the best output per larva. | ||
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DaasEuGen
Germany35 Posts
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